Warcraft Revision part 2

[Antvasima]

"At least Low 5-B" seems safest for the titans.

We do not know if Deathwing could destroy planets in a single strike, or simply by taking his time, so "At least High 6-A", by scaling from the elemental lords, seems safest.

A footnote should be fine.

Controlling all of the water of a planet is a High 6-A feat as far as I am aware, so "Likely High 6-A" seems better.

What about Murmur?

 

[KinkiestSins]

"At least Low 5-B" seems safest for the titans.

We do not know if Deathwing could destroy planets in a single strike, or simply by taking his time, so "At least High 6-A", by scaling from the elemental lords, seems safest.

A footnote should be fine.

Controlling all of the water of a planet is a High 6-A feat as far as I am aware, so "Likely High 6-A" seems better.

What about Murmur?

Sorry, dont know enough about him to give an opinion. I guess 'At Least 6-C' lowball for elemental lord scaling seems fine. He should also be comparable to Guldan who is Island Level with prep time.

Sure, I can scale Deathwing appropriately.

If I find more to Deathwings power, since I havent played the new expansion and he is elaborated on even further there, I will let you know.

So we have.

Titans: Low 5-B Dragon Abstracts: At Least High 6-A Elemental Lords: At Least 6-C, Likely High 6-A

Anyone who scales these characters, match to scale.

As for the individual characters like Illidan and such... give me a moment to do some research but on paper they should be fine.


Also, here is the note for the dragon abstracts

Note: While deathwing is refered to the 'Destroyer of Worlds', we are unsure if this is hyperbole or overtime, as such we cannot scale them to any of the Titans or Old Gods. He was also corrupted by the Old Gods, so it is likely he is not Small Planet Level

Note for Titans in prettier language: While Titans are made from 'World Souls', it is unknown at this point of time how big these 'worlds' are. As such, we cannot assume these planets are comparable too or bigger then earth, so Small Planet Level seems safest until further clarification on their power is given.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. That seems fine.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Wow this thread is super ****** but KinkiestSins' suggestion seems fine, honestly. Probably the least contradictory and easiest to support.

 

[KinkiestSins]

Notified Azzy as well. If he has any modifications, I will modify as such. Anyone else who can possibly help?

 

[KinkiestSins]

Wow this thread is super ****** but KinkiestSins' suggestion seems fine, honestly. Probably the least contradictory and easiest to support.

Wow, you ninjaed me. Can we proceed with changes?

 

[Antvasima]

Yes, you can edit the pages.

 

[Bepo4151]

@sins Nothing really happens in legion with Deathwing we learn only that he got beaten by a tauren with a legendary weapon in the past. But the scaling if we have 5-B Aspects. Than we have 5-B titan keepers who fought the elemental lords so they get bumped to 5-B. I honestly think 6-A seams better.

 

[KinkiestSins]

@sins Nothing really happens in legion with Deathwing we learn only that he got beaten by a tauren with a legendary weapon in the past. But the scaling if we have 5-B Aspects. Than we have 5-B titan keepers who fought the elemental lords so they get bumped to 5-B. I honestly think 6-A seams better.

That could be simply explained by PIS.

Like I said, WoW is riddled with it.

Edit: Changed Deathwing, I will get started into changing everyone else appropriately.

I will change the Elemental Lords today, and the old gods tomorrow. Might make a profile for Ysera since she deserves a profile on here.

I will also add myself to the Knowledgable Members list since Warcraft apparently has no one who is knowledgable about the lore minus those who helped out with revisions.

 

[Rakanadyo]

@sins Nothing really happens in legion with Deathwing we learn only that he got beaten by a tauren with a legendary weapon in the past. But the scaling if we have 5-B Aspects. Than we have 5-B titan keepers who fought the elemental lords so they get bumped to 5-B. I honestly think 6-A seams better.

It's hard to say just what the Hammer of Khaz'Goroth could do. The only times we've seen it in use is when Dargrul had it. He destroyed a few towns with it fairly easily, and it was implied that this was just the power of basic, uneducated use.

It was apparently used to shape the earth of Azeroth, which might make it Continent or Multi-Continent level when used with maximum efficiency. So I don't think it's far too outside the realm of possibilities that it could've been used to banish Deathwing, who himself was attuned to the earth in a way.

 

[Antvasima]

@KinkiestSins

Okay. Thank you for the help.

 

[KinkiestSins]

@KinkiestSins
Okay. Thank you for the help.

NP.

Should I modify all other stats to match these new changes?

Edit: Modified everyone as directed minus strength. I changed the elemental lords durability to match.

I will get back to these changes later as I am tired.

 

[Antvasima]

Yes, you can update all of the relevant Warcraft pages accordingly when you have the energy to continue.

 

[Myriadofmemes]

KinkiestSins, can you please tell me why you think that the Titans are 5-B for being birthed from a planet? Titans have much greater showings than Planet level, the fight between Sargeras and the rest of the Pantheon left large parts of reality destroyed. We already discussed titans in the previous revision thread here

Furthermore I'd like to ask what makes you think that Titans should scale off of Old Gods or vice versa. Old gods don't really have any feats on a planetary scale.

When it comes to Neptulon the page that you provided uses the wording "rules over all water" and not "controls". I personally believe that this denotes that Neptulon is the King of all oceans and seas and not that he can manipulate all water on the planet the two words aren't synonymous.

Overall, I can't really say that I understand who is scaling from who from your points. Old Gods seems to scale off of defeating the Elementals during primordial Azeroth but if Elementals don't have showings on a High 6-A scale than how can we use their defeat to scale Old Gods. And even if they did, why would the Old Gods jump all the way to Low 5-B for easily defeating the Elemental Lords and not 5-C and even further than that, High 6-A is a very large tier.

Same problem with the Dragon Aspects who scale off of Deathwing who you're scaling off of Ragnaros and Alakir

.EDIT:

To elaborate a little bit more o the scaling for Titans, Old Gods and Dragon Aspects: You're trying to scale the titans "to the old gods who are possibly 5-B" on the basis that the titans fought the Old Gods. The only time they "fought" was when a titan plucked out one of the Old Gods on Azeroth with his bare hand without using any actual magic, disintegrating the Old God in the process to the point where the creature couldn't ressurect itself afterwards. Again, the titan did this with his bare hand and if that's not enough the titan was trying his best not to hurt the planet. A reasoning like this essentially puts the equivelent of a human being without any tools in the same tier as a flower sprouting from the ground.

The titans simply can't be in the same tier as the Demon Lords Archimonde and Kil'Jaeden as well who have consistently been stated to be nothing in comparison to Sargeras. I was under the impression that all of the WoW supporters had already come to an agreement on the Titans.

 

[Antvasima]

It would probably be good if you go through all of the points that you mentioned on my message wall, if you forgot any.

 

[Myriadofmemes]

Thanks for the input Ant, I've edited my previous post. At first I didn't want to make an overly long one but you're right and it's probably for the best to be as detailed as possible.

 

[AntorusTheBurningThrone]

Myriadofmemes, thanks for your allaboration. Really helpful.

 

[CNBA3]

For Illidan post Skull of Gul'dan, would that make him at least Island level?

 

[KinkiestSins]

I am gointo rush through all these points.

"Higher showings then Planet Level" Dude, I wasnt part of the last thread. In fact, You didnt elaborate on anything yourself, you just pointed me to the last thread which quite frankly I dont have time to read.

I think the scaling with them is fine, considering they basically sentient planets. I think it is best to keep it simple to assume all Titans though are 'At Least Low 5-B'

@Neptulon 'rules' vs 'controls' It also said in the article, he rules over the ocean. I find High 6-A high end seeming fine, it is clear cut to me. But that is also why he is 'Likely' and not straight up 'High 6-A'

It is favorable considering how generally speaking, Neptulon is the kind of elemental lord who loves to expand his territory just to mess with people, or his other lords. Ruling over the ocean is still similar too, albeit admitedly not the same as controls the ocean. But considering he can sink ships he wants too in the ocean, seems pretty likely he is at most this powerful.

"Elemental lords scale to Old Gods!" I did not say that, you did. I said they are way superior to the Lords. They got stomped by the old gods and their armies, and only titans were enough to beat them

Which by the way,

"Why are the titans Low 5-B?"

Did you read the thread? Titans have world souls, world souls are basically sentient planets, we just dont know the size. I find this to be a good baseline. It sets aside PIS and just goes straight to the 'Lore'.


Tldr: Titans are Low 5-B because they are world souls, they bring order to planets etc. Old Gods and those who scale are 'Likely Low 5-B'. Old Gods fought Titans, Some Demon Lords are comparable to Titans in strength. Lords are High 6-A via scaling to Neptulon, but we only have that one statement, so he is '!ikely' Aspects are 'At Least High 6-A' because they are superior to any of the lords by a large margin.

I find it best just to stick to Occams Razor and use the assumption with the least amount of leaps of logic.

If you have any individual issues with those who scale via fights, it is likely PIS. The only exceptions are Argus (Who is above anything we have seen by an unknown margin), and a few others. scaling in wow is hard since in genre, alot of typical humans (although skilled with magic and swordsmanship, still just people). That said, the scaling if issues with old god scaling is that big of a deal, we can downgrade yogg and co to either 'Possibly Low 5-B' or just 'Unknown' Scaling them to At Least High 6-A would seem to be disingenuous. They are still above most things in the WoW foodchain, and it would be ridiculous to assume they are 'At Least High 6-A'

They just are above anything we have seen. I also dont like giving them a 5-C tier just for being kinda comparable to the Titans.

 

[KinkiestSins]

Also, considering it is the old gods job to corrupt titan world souls, I find this to be fine https://wow.gamepedia.com/Old_Gods Edit: Also important to know destroying the old gods = destroying Azeroth.

 

[AntorusTheBurningThrone]

KinkiestSins, about your whole "World Soul" thing. World Souls are NOT Sentient Planets.

World Souls START off as living Energy. The energy then forms a Planet around itself so that it could be protected when maturing. Then, that Planet would have generations of Life both thriving and dying on it. However, when the time comes, the "World Soul" would mature, becoming a Titan. Beings made up of Clouds, Water, magic, life, and so forth. Oh, and they're also the size of Planets.

That DOESN'T make then 5-B, however. If a Titan was corrupted by the Old Gods, then not even the Pantheon themselves could stop it. It would basically make the Universe its own play ground, as well a portal for the Void Lords to enter in (Since, well, they cannot physically enter themselves. And, even when they could, it was only for a limited time).

Sargeras' battle with the Pantheon alone destroyed part of Reality. It destroyed Planet, Star Systems, and much more. That is, until Sargeras won.

http://ptr.wowhead.com/spell=256544/end-of-all-things

This is Argus' Ability for phase 4. Sure, it may be like Algalon's Big Bang, or something like that. But, to be honest, it might not actually be that case.

Remember, Yogg'Saron's World Destruction thing, and Algalon's big bang are just regular boss mechanics. Here, this is apart of phase 4. And, while a mechanic, it's a HEAVY piece in the lore, since you're also trying to get back to life during the beginning of that very same phase. So, it's bascially a race around the clock, pretty much.

So, if that's the case, then we could assume that Argus' End of all thing's ability ISN'T an overstatement, and that he actually CAN Destroy the Universe (Which IS stated in Aggramar's Description, talking about him guarding a Power that could unmake the Universe. AKA, Argus).


That's NO 5-B Feat. None of the Titan's are 5-B. They're ranging from 3-B to High 3-A Max (Or, 2-A if the "Universe" Is actually the Multiverse, in Argus' case).

 

[KinkiestSins]

The first part is arguing in semantics dude.

Thats a spell, it could simply be game mechanics.

I am going to need something more like a cutscene or something along those lines to accept this.

Otherwise, it is just gameplay.

We literally just had the discussion with jrpgs.

WoW does not get special treatment

Edit: I just realized the...differing opinions of each side.

 

[KinkiestSins]

For Illidan post Skull of Gul'dan, would that make him at least Island level?

Yeah, seems fine to me.

 

[AntorusTheBurningThrone]

The first part is arguing in semantics dude.
Thats a spell, it could simply be game mechanics.

I am going to need something more like a cutscene or something along those lines to accept this.

Otherwise, it is just gameplay.

We literally just had the discussion with jrpgs.

WoW does not get special treatment

Edit: I just realized the...differing opinions of each side.

As I said, it could just be a spell. However, with all thta build up, I don't see that just being a simple "in game mechanic".

Also, look at my post above, and read it all. Idc if you had a discussion earlier with someone, the facts are still facts.

Sargeras isn't a 5-B threat cause he's born from a Planet. That's like saying Goku's 5-B cause his base form's as strong as final form Freeza.

That's not how it works. Schematics don't work in those ways.

 

[Antvasima]

@KinkiestSins

I am also very uncertain about a High 6-A rating from simply ruling the ocean.

And if the titans are capable of collectively destroying the fabric of the universe, they should have higher ratings.

 

[CNBA3]

I made a Burning Legion profile and put Sargeras at unknown since we don't know his full power, I put planet since he is capable of cutting planets in half

 

[Rakanadyo]

I'd note that he is higher than the Pantheon, since he managed to defeat them by himself, and even killed one in a single strike.

 

[KinkiestSins]

@KinkiestSins
I am also very uncertain about a High 6-A rating from simply ruling the ocean.

And if the titans are capable of collectively destroying the fabric of the universe, they should have higher ratings.

Then if it is fine with you, I can just change it to 'at least 6-C'

That does mean we have to revert death wing back to his original rating, which is High 6-B.

Although he might have a feat on this level I am not aware off.

I also honestly dont recall them having the ability to destroy the fabric of the universe.

I will divert to Myriad here since he seems most knowledgable on this issue.

As such however, once these changes are finished, I will revert/changes the profile as instructed.

...again.

 

[KinkiestSins]

I'd note that he is higher than the Pantheon, since he managed to defeat them by himself, and even killed one in a single strike.

that makes sense.

 

[Antvasima]

My apologies about that you likely have to do some extra work.

 

[Antvasima]

I think that Myriadofmemes wrote about the titans here:

https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/1108629

 

[KinkiestSins]

I think that Myriadofmemes wrote about the titans here:
https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/1108629

I read it and skimmed it.

I would like to add that we should probably talk about the titans.

https://wow.gamepedia.com/Arcane

https://wow.gamepedia.com/Tita

I will use these as the assumption on what the above are talking about.

Titans are apparently tied to the Arcane, which have time/space bending properties.

It is the opposite of Fel.

I dont know enough about this.. arcane admitedly.

But on paper, this sounds like Low 2-C via hax. (I doubt ap but at least this)

I am going to be super messy here,

but some bullet points based on the above page.

Can I get a summary on where we are at via feats on the titans please?

I dont have the time to go through each thread.

Although I did hear Argus unmaking reality, which since the twisting nether is infinite in size

Either High 3-A or Low 2-C.

Considering Titans are tied to the arcane, And Argus was rewriting the twisiting nether, I am unsure which of the two would make sense.

I would like more community input.

I personally think this leans in favor of Low 2-C.

I have not read the Illidan novel, I can download it and read it for clarification.

But I think the wikis should be enough.

Plus, Myriad seems to be informed so he can fact check I believe.

Edit: This page might be helpful in the future

http://blizzardwatch.com/2017/09/22/know-lore-tfh-argus-twisting-nether/

 

[Antvasima]

In order to qualify for Low 2-C they have to be able to affect an entire universal space-time continuum at once.

If they have more low level 4-dimensional powers, it is usually High 3-A.

 

[KinkiestSins]

In order to qualify for Low 2-C they have to be able to affect an entire universal space-time continuum at once.
If they have more low level 4-dimensional powers, it is usually High 3-A.

Then at least on paper, then it is High 3-A.

I dont think the time and space of the twisting nether was effected, but I could be wrong.

If so, then Low 2-C.

 

[Antvasima]

Let's wait for Myriadofmemes.

 

[AntorusTheBurningThrone]

I'm pretty sure the Nether is effected by space time, since when you become a Demon, not only are your AU selves apparently non-existant (AKA, Kil'jaeden/Archimonde), but the Nether also links itself toward the Warcraft timelines (AKA, the Prime Universe/The Alternate Realities), despite it being its own seperate thing created by the reminants of Light/Shadow.

The Nether is also pretty much the Legion's main travelling point between Universes/Planets. To me, it almost seems very much affected by the Legion alone. :/

 

[Myriadofmemes]

Arcane Magic is full blown reality warping in Warcraft nowadays.

It's been used for the creation of entirely new space/time continuums in the form of pocket dimensions so unmaking one via arcane magic does sound potentially legitimate but it wouldn't be anything that has been seen before in Warcraft's lore. I would personally like to wait until the raid officially releases on the 28th this month or maybe wait to see if the writers would like to give clarification on the Argus fight if the raid itself doesn't touch on the subject. I'm personally leaning towards High 3-A and that would be a rating only for that particular spell and not Argus in general considering that he is in his Avatar form when he does this. A good example of what I'm talking about is how we rate Saber's excaliblast as High 7-A from Fate/Stay Night.

On the topic of Neptulon, I'd wager that him destroying ships all across the planet's oceans constitutes a multi-continental Range and not direct AP. After all, it's unlikely that all the ocens, seas and lakes of the world rise up to smash against every vessel that Neptulon is toying with. It would be a much more noteworthy event if that was constantly happening. It seems much more likely that he uses his multi-continental range to create localized storms or tidal waves for the purpose of destroying these measily ships. When I said ruler I fully meant ruling as a king of the oceans, like a king of a country.

On the topic of scaling Old Gods from elemetals I was refering to your post where you rated the Old Gods as "Likely 5-B (Easily defeated all of the Elemental Lords..."

Finally when it comes to the Titans fighting the Old Gods, it really wasn't much of a fight. One titan simply "removed" one of the Old Gods from the "premise" but that's about it. There was no real fight between them to suggest a 5-B rating, especially considering that the Titans are vastly above 5-B. The titans then left the fight against the 3 other Old Gods to the Titan-Forged. Their corruption of a titan was more mind-hax than anything else.

EDIT:

Here's the quotation where the Titans damage a considerable part of reality which is their only real showing of their true power since the retconns.

 

[Antvasima]

@Myriadofmemes

So do you have any practical suggestions for which statistics that we should give to which characters, along with explanation texts within parentheses?

 

[Myriadofmemes]

If I had to make the ratings I'd go with something along the lines of:

Sargeras: 3-B

Attack Potency: Multi-Galaxy level ( fought and defeated all of the other members of the Titan race at the same time, the fight between them caused vast devastation across the cosmos ).

Argus: 3-B | High 3-A with the End of All Things

Attack Potency: Multi-Galaxy level ( comparable to the rest of the Titans of the Pantheon ) | Universe level with the End of All Things ( threatened to unmake all of creation if the spell was completed ).

Therazane: 6-C

Attack Potency: Island level ( can raise rows of towering mountain ranges as defenses against enemy attacks ).

Neptulon: 6-C

Attack Potency: Island level ( his tidal waves were capable of fully submerging the mountain ranges raised by Therazane).

Ragnaros: 6-C

Attack Potency: Island level ( comparable to Therazane and Neptulon, his summoning alone caused total devastation across parts of the continent of The Eastern Kingdoms ).

Al'Akir: 6-C

Attack Potency: Island level ( fought the rest of the Elemental Lords, Therazane, Neptulon and Ragnaros in a standstill for countless millenia).

Murmur: Unknown, possibly 6-C

Attack Potency: possibly Island level ( a powerful elemental from a diffent planet, possibly comparable to the Elemental Lords of Azeroth ).

Deathwing: High 6-B

Attack Potency: Large Country level ( The Shattering caused by Deathwing's return to Azeroth caused untold destruction across portions of the continents of Kalimdor and Eastern Kingdoms ).

Yog-Saron: 6-A

Attack Potency: Continent level ( vastly superior to Deathwing, the sheer size of the entity is such that its' tendrils were buried so deep into the crust of the planet that trying to remove the creature would have cause permanent damage to Azeroth. )

 

[MasterOfArda]

A couple things:

Dark Titan Sargeras: At least 4-B or 4-A, likely far higher

Scarring vast streches of reality is about 4-A, possibly far higher. Though we don't know how long it takes for that, so a low-end of 4-B from the quote that the Titans could destroy vast streches of reality seems best. Most Titans would be possibly far higher, but since he fought all of them at once likely far higher seems fair for dark Sargeras.

The Titans (Including base Sargeras): At least 4-B or 4-A, possibly far higher

Same as above: Their collective power managed to scar vast streches of reality, so their individual power should be quite weaker.

Murmur: At least High 6-A, possibly 5-B

It was stated his whispers could destroy planets, but whether or not that was lifewiping was not made clear if I remmeber correctly.

Deathwing (Post-curroption): At least High 6-A

Pretty simple: Post-curroption Deathwing is at least as strong as Neltherion.

Neltherion: High 6-A

Given that he is the aspect of the Earth and shaped the world, High 6-A seems to make a lot of sense.

Dragon aspects: Likely High 6-A

The dragon aspects should probably scale to Neltherion, hence the likely.

Elemental lords: At least 6-C, possibly High 6-A

Same reasoning as for the likely High 6-A statistics, just in this case possibly High 6-A seems to make more sense.