Virtual Characters - Reality Equalization

[InfiniteSped]

Matrix has some fan theories about the real world being a simulation, but nothing really confirmed or usuable here, really.

It's a trash theory that goes agains all the messages of the trilogy and should never be taken seriously anyway.

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

I feel like a broken record a bit by asking this, but how would this affect I/O? Their hierarchies of dreams and digital simulations could be messy with this

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

I agree.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

@Iapitus

What does I/O even do? I'd need detail.

Refer to the above conditions I set, basically. Decides which "layer" of reality is the most prominent one in order to determine the "baseline" reality and thus determine the tier of the others.

 

[GLHF22]

Holy shit with this I/O Will be reduced to 11A from 1-A XD

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Like I said in the OP it depends.

If the entire series focus on the higher layers then yeah big sad.

But I doubt that's the case.

 

[GLHF22]

I/O have complicated cosmology, so i aint touch that, from what i know they are Imaginary child/Human than has been reduced to data and information.

 

[DanielIH15]

What would happen with Tron/Rinzler?

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Y'all need to read the thread and conditions I set up

Afaik he'd remain the same. He'd fit for 11-A, but has no need for a 11-A key. So just remains at 9-C.

 

[Bobsican]

11-A Sora, Donald and Goofy when? They have plenty of immersion feats now that I think about it, hopefully not a big deal

 

[Agnaa]

Agree with the OP.

 

[Antvasima]

I think that the OP seems to make sense, but also wonder how this would affect IO. Somebody should preferably ask Iapitus and A6colute.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Honestly if they were treated as big Tier 1 before this thread I doubt they will change, as otherwise it would definitively have brought suspicion.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. They had simulation realities within simulation realities within simulation realities, and so onwards an infinite number of times.

 

[The_King_of_Prudence]

This could matter for characters from Men in Black. You could argue that Marble Alie is the baseline for that reality, as well as it's marbles and the marble inside it's marbles. But the second one is what's focussed on, so that would be considered baseline..

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

The Marble Alien is only physically big. It's not considered transcendant to the main universe.

Even then it wouldn't matter by my guidelines, as literally the entire verse focuses on the small universe and the alien shows up for like 10 seconds.

 

[The_King_of_Prudence]

I said that.

 

[Karter406]

I'm not sure I understand. Equalizing Reality would allow Kirito to fight as his dual-sword self with fully-real weapons, not just a sickly nerd who lost a knife-fight to some random bloke, right?

In this scenario, would the Video Game Logic Kirito's used to dealing with (being able to pull weapons from his inventory, being able to log out into the real world, taking damage as lost Health Points rather than actual damage, potentially regenerating Health Points too quickly for taken damage to matter) continue to apply to Kirito? Or would it be like in those fighting games where Kirito and Asuna are treated as "real swordfighters" who need to obey the world's "real-world" (fighting-game) logic?

 

[Agnaa]

@Karter I'd think so, many characters on the wiki already go by video game logic like that, it's usually not super relevant in fights. Even stuff like "logging out into the real world" would be self-BFR and result in a loss.

 

[Bobsican]

Well, it being Self-BFR by itself isn't a loss unless he stays out for too long.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

If it's canon in the game world, then it applies to his key.

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

I'll explain I/O's situation, but I'm gonna need to over simplify it for the sake of brevity and understanding. I/O works on it's own brand of Pataphysics. Within the type of hierarchy that most relates to the issue within the verse, it is an infinitely, layered hierarchy of simulations expanding infinitely in both directions. "Beneath" you is an infinite amount of simulations, video games are a often used form, each with more simulations beneath them. Above you, is a reality that is creating the simulation you exist in, and one above them, and one above them, and so on and so forth. Many characters can navigate these hierarchies by "logging in" to move down, and "logging out" to move up. In some cases this is literal, in other cases this can he you waking up as a higher version of yourself. From any given layer, there are an infinite amount of layers above and below you. It's hard to even say what the baseline reality is, since this may vary between routes, and within each layer is their own multiverse, made up of either countless or infinite universes. Essentially, by equalizing their location within a hierarchy, as opposed to them without one which is where most of their street and wall level keys come it, something is fundamentally lost.

Does that make sense? I know the cosmology is complex, and I have had to leave some stuff out, but hopefully the message gets across

 

[Agnaa]

That sounds a lot like SCP's narrative situation (except it's explicitly infinite in both directions), and it should be treated similarly.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

What Agnaa said.

The inconsistent baseline might be problematic. I have that issue with some of my verses too (mainly the Nikki verses).

If it's really too inconsistant, maybe a "Varies" key would be needed, but I'm pretty sure you can find some semblance of baseline somewhere.

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

Well, I/O has a unique difference in that, unlike the SCP universe, there are characters who can exist without their layered cosmology. SCP also usually has a "main" layer, where as I/O does not

Also, each hierarchy is different depending on who is creating said hierarchy (let's avoid that can of worms for now), may have an actually infinite number of higher layer or an unfathomable number of them. Either way, it creates a problem with this situation.

 

[Agnaa]

Do they exist "without" or "beyond"?

For not having a "main" layer I can see a few ways around it, but we'd need to decide on one:

• Treat the weakest, but still reasonably common, layer as the "main" one and tier relative to that.
• Find which layer is the "main" one for each character (not the one where they're human, but the one where they're most often portrayed) and use that as the "main" for that character, repeat for each character.
• Rate all characters to the bottom of the cosmology, even if that layer isn't seen/prominent, but also give them a key/rating for being within the layer which is their own reality (so the one where they're "human" or closest to it).
• Rate each character as "varies" from the weakest prominent layer to the strongest prominent layer.

There's probably some more options too, these are just my initial suggestions.

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

Either or, depending on who you are talking about. The 1-A and, depending on the specifics, low 1-A characters, exist beyond, where as there are examples of people existing in non-layered existences or parts of any specific hierarchy above or bellow them.

Actually, many characters do have varies for their tiers within the hierarchies, but we are talking about where they would be placed when realities are equalized as this thread discusses.

Trying to choose a main one actually fundamentally ignores a piece of philosophy that just cuz your self exists in a higher or lower layer, does not make it any less legitimate. Just to be clear, this is not in regards to power of the characters within each layer.

To be clear, I think that taking I/O on it's own doesn't have these problems, but trying to place outside characters on a specific layer creates problems. If a character is already tier 1 then we can just play count the dimensional levels, but if we are trying to place a character on a specific level who does not exist in a layered existence otherwise, it may be best to just suspend the practices discussed in the OP

 

[Agnaa]

>first paragraph

Existing beyond exists, well, beyond, and should be tiered that way. A non-layered existence isn't an AP feat by itself. This is really the same as "beyond dimensions" and "adimensional" except with layers instead of dimensions, and should be treated as we normally treat those feats.

>the rest of the post

I think you're strongly misunderstanding how this will play out.

• When realities are equalized, characters get their key within those realities.
• Realities are not always equalized. Sometimes characters have keys for how they perceive that reality from on high (SCP-3812), sometimes characters have keys for how they perceive that reality from down below (SCP-2747).

We are not placing outside characters on a specific layer.

EDIT: Unless you had, for instance, a character beyond all outerversal structures (High 1-A) fighting a character in a verse where beyond all outerversal structures there's more layers, in which case this sort of thing is unavoidable. There's boundless characters down in tier 2, but we treat them as bounded by tier 1 cosmologies.

 

[Crzer07]

There is no "baseline" reality for verses with infinite regress of metaverses so I guess characters in it would be High 1-B.

Btw, I still think the simulation argument is kinda bull for now just in case you are peddling that kinda stuff for The Real World. But I digress as that may or may not have anything to do with this, but still somewhat related.

 

[Agnaa]

@Crzer07 SCP has an infinite regress of metaverses but we can essentially assign a baseline, since 99.99% of story content is focused on that baseline layer, even if that layer's somewhere in the middle of the stack.

 

[Antvasima]

We preferably need to tier I/O according to our new system at some point.

 

[A_Stoned_Orc]

So...what about Digimon? They're in a digital world...

 

[The_King_of_Prudence]

Not layered.

 

[Overlord775]

So...what about Digimon? They're in a digital world...

Not an actual digital world, but a world that can be accessed trought digital means

just weird naming

 

[Ywlrvl]

I agree with the OP.

 

[Antvasima]

So what should we do here?

 

[Agnaa]

I'd like some actual input on my suggested possible ways to deal with verses like I/O (outlined here), but aside from that there's a good amount of consensus with the OP. We should either apply it or have the detractors speak up so we can address their issues.

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

>first paragraph
Existing beyond exists, well, beyond, and should be tiered that way. A non-layered existence isn't an AP feat by itself. This is really the same as "beyond dimensions" and "adimensional" except with layers instead of dimensions, and should be treated as we normally treat those feats.

>the rest of the post

I think you're strongly misunderstanding how this will play out.

• When realities are equalized, characters get their key within those realities.
• Realities are not always equalized. Sometimes characters have keys for how they perceive that reality from on high (SCP-3812), sometimes characters have keys for how they perceive that reality from down below (SCP-2747).

We are not placing outside characters on a specific layer.

EDIT: Unless you had, for instance, a character beyond all outerversal structures (High 1-A) fighting a character in a verse where beyond all outerversal structures there's more layers, in which case this sort of thing is unavoidable. There's boundless characters down in tier 2, but we treat them as bounded by tier 1 cosmologies.

Yeah, I wasn't really claiming it was. Characters who exist within the scope of the visions of those in the meta world don't really get any feats for not existing in the hierarchies.

Ok cool? I/O is really hard since they don't really have a baseline reality once the hierarchies come into play. I think honestly what is more notable for scaling is characters who can effect far higher layers/structures while existing in a lower layer

I don't really understand then, but ok.

Most of the I/O characters who are like, transcendent of hierarchies will end up as either Low 1-A or 1-A, so at least we won't have that problem here. I guess the only potential issue is if you had different characters who jump up different hierarchies to gain power, but their layers are different tier differences

 

[Agnaa]

There's many ways to treat characters who jump up different tiers to gain power. SCP-2747's tier varies between the lowest it's reached and the highest it's reached, since it can always manifest lower or climb higher. Kimba Laslow has two different keys for this, mentioning that she can effectively switch between them. SCP-3812 is constantly and uncontrollably ascending, so he has a tier for as he is now, and the tier that he'd eventually reach.

 

[Antvasima]

Agnaa and Iapitus seem to make sense regarding I/O. Thank you for helping out.