Virtual Characters - Reality Equalization

So, there is something we have been doing for a while on the Wiki, and this is giving characters from virtual or otherwise fictional worlds a key for their virtual selves that assumes them to be "real". Meaning that instead of being 10-C or 11-A, they'd be assumed to be 3-D beings and thus be given our usual 3-D tiers.

Despite this being a common and accepted practice, we have never put out anything remotely resembling rules or any regulations regarding that. Now while this hasn't caused any major problems like a wank attempt or an abuse of it in matches/profiles, I'd rather we get rules up before this happens, as well as potentially a page for it. Let's call it "Reality Equalization". It doesn't help that some people have been having doubts/questions regarding the whole thing so here we go.

Why do that?
Let's get this one out of the way first. Some people wonder why we even allow that, given that we're blatantly upgrading a character to be infinitely stronger than they are normally just for the sake of making VS Matches. Although it's important to note that keys of these characters inside the virtual worlds are only keys that are considered in the perspective of the virtual world. Kirito's Tier 8 and such keys aren't us upgrading Kirito outside of the game world as much as this key implying that the opponent exists within the virtual world for the sake of this match.

And while yes it is rather unusual, I do think we should keep allowing it for a few reasons. The most important of which is that refusing to do it would remove tons of character from any relevant matches due to the unfortunate status of their verse. Stuff like the Matrix, SAO or Code Lyoko would be reduced to 10-B or 11-A matches forever, despite the fact that the focus of their series is actual, 3-D combat, just set in a virtual world.

Secondly, there is the fact that oftentimes in fiction, "reality" is subjective. Plenty of fictions have the real world as fiction to a greater being. This is even more blatant in fictions like SCP (be ready to see this verse pop up a lot here), which has basically endless layers of fiction, with no definitive "baseline". In those cases, we just decided to choose the most prominent "level" of reality as the baseline. While the comparison with virtual worlds isn't exactly proper, it at least proves that we're willing to somewhat arbitrarily define a baseline if it's prominent enough within a given work of fiction.

So in my opinion, this feature should be kept. While it is...admittedly weird to have it, it's better than to ignore entire fictions worth of characters due to them living in virtual worlds and generally allows for a lot more matches, similarly to Speed Equalization.

How should it be applied?
I think we collectively got most of it figured out but let's tighten it a bit more. Basically, when we give a virtual character a 3-D key, it is assumed by default that fights involving this key take place inside the virtual world. Now it doesn't force a location on the OP, as the fight can still theoretically take place anywhere, but the location will be assumed to have the same properties as the virtual world the character is from. Neo would effectively still be in the Matrix with all the abilities that this grants him.

This is to make sure that, as by SBA, the character fights at their peak. But it's also because these kinds of characters generally cannot exist period outside of their virtual worlds. A video game character is defined by the rules of their virtual world and can't exactly do anything at all if just plopped outside it. Now, of course, this won't apply if a character is stronger in one specific area and is generally depicted outside of it, but that's another topic entirely.

There is also the issue of "real beings". Using our previously used logic at its fullest, a real world being would be Low 2-C (or more generally, one dimensional level above the cosmology of the virtual world) compared to the key of the virtual being. And yes, that much is logically true. However, we get the obvious problem of having regular humans be Low 2-C just due to a virtual world existing in their world. And yes I do agree that it's dumb, but I also think that this is not something to ignore entirely, as some verses rely heavily on their "real world" beings in their plot, and on this real world being's tiering as transcendent. Examples include the Player in Imscared, as their superiority over White Face is extremely important to the plot and the ending, and simply ignoring this wouldn't work. But I'll get to the rules regarding when to apply this in my next paragraph.

In what circumstances should this be applied?
So as I've stated before, using this logic at its fullest and without restraints and we end up with Low 2-C humans for existing new fictional world, but also any dream sequence or anything similar be applicable for a ridiculously high key. Obviously it's not something we want, so we need to set up rules to decide when a character should have any key relating to this. To be more precise, we have to decide if it's relevant for a virtual/fictional characters to have a key from their perspective and, when dealing with lower perspectives, if it's relevant for a "real" character to have a key for their power compared to the lower world. And for this, we have two important factors/keywords: Perspective and Prominence.

Firstly, perspective. The main reason why we allow this whole equalization to happen, as I've said, is due to those lower characters being portrayed in a similar way to 3-D characters, meaning they engage in 3-D-like interactions and generally act like normal characters outside of their virtuality. And so, characters most likely need to be treated in a similar fashion in order to gain a key for their own level of reality. Meanwhile, characters who are mostly defined with their interaction with the "main world" and with little to no story content taking place in their perspective will probably not need tiers on their level. For example, a lot of the conflicts in Imscared take place inside the game world itself, where White Face is portrayed as a big fat reality warping entity, making its Low 2-C key acceptable. On the other hand, most SCP 11-As like Murphy Law are defined by their interaction with lower fictions from the Foundation's perspective. While yes they do have conflicts and interactions in this lower world, they are relatively minor compared to their 11-A shenanigans.

Secondly, prominence. Basically, how important this depiction of the character is. Certain characters have over half of their fiction take place in the virtual world, with their most iconic everything taking place there. Like I said before, these kinds of characters existing is one of the primary reasons why we allow this kind of equalization in the first place. And thus obviously, they'd be allowed as long as the perspective rule is followed. However, characters who are only briefly shown in their virtual worlds or who are only featured in quick dream sequences have little to no reason to have a key for this version of themselves. Similarly, when we deal with lower worlds, we should only give keys for "real world" things if said things are relevant enough to this lower world. For example, a real world human compared to the Matrix or SAO has no real business being any tier compared to these worlds, as they never meaningfully interact with those outside of providing avatars. Meanwhile, the Player in Imscared interacts often with the lower world and their status compared to it is an important plot point, meaning they do have reasons for their tiering.

Addendum: 11-A Virtual Characters?
So, somewhat related to this, as we're covered fictional/virtual characters. A while back I did a thread upgrading most 11-As who were at this tier due to being virtual characters to 10-C. The logic being that virtual characters are essentially just the electric current within the machine, which isn't 11-A, as it's still 3-D and affects our own world. While this logic is still sound on paper, I feel like I might have applied this to too many people, as not all virtual characters are just electric current.

Basically, treating all virtual characters are electric current is like treating every fictional characters as being literally pictures/words. Which isn't accurate. As I stated above, most virtual world characters are treated as existing in an "actual" world that is simply virtual. Their worlds aren't limited by what real world beings see. You can do things the players can't or see things the players can't. If a character sees things this way, then this proves that the character themselves are fictional contructs rather than sentient electric currents. Thus, they should be 11-A, and thus eligible for Reality Equalization.

However, if a character is instead limited to what the simulation/game is capable of and doesn't seen any "world" beyond the one that the viewer has access to, then there is no virtual world and the character is simply 10-C. The same logic would apply to other fictional characters, but less often. A sentient drawing isn't the same as a sentient fictional character depicted within the drawing, for example. It's all a matter of Medium vs Content of the Medium.

As examples:

-Giffany and Rumble McSkirmish would most likely fall into the 10-C category. While I haven't watched the show, it does sound like both of those do not really inhabit a virtual world and are simply code and data. Their ways of interacting with the world are limited to what a really advanced AI would do.

-While I'm less sure on this one, SCP-085 and SCP-021 should be put as 10-C. Even if they're described as "2-D", it doesn't change the fact that their true form is that of a drawing/tattoo. They have not shown to exist in a lower realm and are limited to what is portrayed. For example, 085 cannot go beyond the picture she's in and explore an entire world, only with what has been drawn. Thus, she is considered separated from the whole concept of higher and lower narratives in the SCP verse.

-For similar reasons as above, the Soul Sucking Death Worm has probably no business being 11-A.

-Meanwhile, beings like White Face should probably be 11-A. While they are virtual characters, they have shown to exist in their own virtual worlds with "3-D space" and all that kind expands beyond what simple game worlds would be. The same would technically apply to Monika, SAO, Matrix, etc., but those wouldn't get 11-A keys anyway due to the reasons I explained above.

-I have no idea for Animator vs Animation, but I'd take a wild guess and say 10-C, as they are limited by the computer and don't show anything resembling a whole world.


Now there is still the issue that virtual characters affect the real world through data anyway. White Face's nonsense can still affect the screen and show stuff, making it 10-C. However, none of those actions are directly combat applicable. White Face making electricity move in the computer can't be used to attack a fellow 11-A. So virtual characters who fit the criteria for 11-A would have tier similar to this: "11-A, 10-C through Environmental Destruction" or something. Now while technically this would mean that Reality Equalized 11-As would have Low 2-C via environmental destruction, it's dumb so let's not

Conclusion
So big tl;dr:

-We need to make a page about Reality Equalization to sort this nonsense out

-In my opinion, yes we should keep this practice, since doing otherwise would nuke too many characters

-When it is applied, the opponent of the virtual character is assumed to exist in a world with the same properties as the virtual world. However, the match can take place in any physical location regardless.

-A character should only have a Reality Equalized key if the virtual key is a prominent enough part of the character and if the story takes place in this character's perspective enough.

-Certain characters who are 10-C for being virtual characters should be downgraded back to 11-A, if the character is treated as existing inside a true fictional world instead of just existing within the program that makes up this virtual world.

I didn't write all that shit to be ignored reee

Bump

I agree mostly, but I do have some reservations with applying this to fictional verses (you know what I mean) where the envirement is not applicable to a 3D, real world.

While not exactly a canonical ly fictitious verse, an exemple would be Undertake and it's many, many video-game logic. Or more specifically, stuff like Sans' "my turn you can't attack". Now, I'm not saying this should apply to Undertale, but verses where the in-fiction rules are simy not translatable to the real world (like a side-scroller abusing the lack of someone's ability of moving sideways) I don't know about.

Ok but what about a verse where a game character is able to directly suck the life force of the humans controlling game avatars?

Do we treat that as higher dimensional absorption or just regular absorption?

If we are going to one-up their existence, then it should be higher-d. And if we put characters into a virtual reality, they would technically be as fictitious as anything else, so it should count as higher D.

@Ovens

If the virtual characters follow the standards I set above, it should maybe be fine. However you oughta keep in mind that it might be done through the medium (aka the console) rather than the character directly. If so, then it would be rather specific and maybe not combat applicable.

Virtual worlds are not really 2D, without complicating that much those worlds are basically information, but since real people can only perceive them trough a monitor they consider them 2D.

Interacting with a virtual world requieres Technology Manipulation, Data Manipulation or Information Manipulation, wherever interacting with a fantasy world is Subjective Reality.

Virtual Worlds are just fictional world with more interactivity.

Like I said in the OP, there is a difference between the program/game which holds the fictional world and the actual fictional world, the same way there is a difference between a book and the fictional world it holds.

Also can you like not use 2D and shit anymore because it's not really relevant to the new system.

Welp, I commented that cuz people is bringing up higher-d stuff, and that have nothing to do with virtual worlds.

Interacting with videogames is anything between Technology Manipulation, Information Manipulation or Subjective Reality. How much real or not the game is depends of the verse, is either fictional or simple digitalized/made of information.

A fake reality, like the ones in IMSCARED, somehow affecting real world people without the hardware as a medium would be higher D hax a majority of the time in-verse. Again with this, see SCP and it's layers of narratives.

Interacting with video games when you're a "real" person is those things as you mentioned.

But interacting with an actual fictional world that goes beyond the confines of the game is more. This is the entire difference I'm trying to create.

It depends of how you see it: people create a virtual world, between everything a virtual entity (naturally made of data, originally), then the entity smarts off and gain the power to try to manifest in the real world; the creature is not really fictional, it was created, but only as information, in whose case it just need Technology/Science Manipulation in order to do that. Then you got people that creates a game, for x reasons, one character gained consciuosness, smarts off, and want to get out, but not from the game/program itself, but rather from the setting, that only exist as idea; in this case it qualify as Subjective Reality.

Yeah. That's...what I've been saying.

A sentient AI contained within a game or program is 10-C. A character that exists in the fictiona world of a video game and who isn't neccessarily limited by game mechanics is 11-A.

Lemme use this thing as an example.

This article has both a 10-C key and a 11-A key. The 10-C part is the digital text file that contains the fiction. Since it's nothing more than, well, a digital file, it's 10-C, as it still exists in our physical world as electricity and data.

Meanwhile, the 11-A part is the fictional character within this piece of fiction. While yes it is written about in the 10-C file, the entity itself moves around and exist as a fictional idea and so is 11-A.

Just to make one minor comment, regarding Code Lyoko. The chracters aren't just limited to virtual settings. They have used the powers of their virtual avatars in the real world before, so they should be given a key for that actually.

But thats beside the point of course. I obviously agree with the OP.

So, tier 11 is for abstract entities that only exist as an idea? Still without having that clear. Would rather rate fictional beings (within verse) as Unknown (in case they have certain influence over the real world without fully manifesting, in whose case they would have SR).

Anyway, one problem that I consider is that by making the fight takes place in a virtual world is that it may enter in conflict with few physiologies and powers, for example there's a girl in the wiki that have powers but only within her dream, so using that key involve putting a character as part if a dream, as a curious note, if she is defeated her dream end, "erasing" everyone within it (forget her name). So, generally I found problematic battles when the physiology of a character have to be changed in order to take place (such turning it in data or in a dream).

I think it's pretty clear when a fictional character is 11-A or 10-C in a verse. No need for Unknown unless it's, well, truly unknown.

That's how we've always done things. Maybe not in this exact manner, but we've allowed contradictory settings in order to make a battle fair, it's straight up in the SBA.

And again, the opposite wouldn't make sense, as these characters cannot exist outside of the virtual setting they are in, by definition, for most of them. We can't just drop them outside of their home setting and arbitrarily cut down some powers they always had because the world doesn't have the characteristics of their home setting.

SBA shouldn't unnecessarily nerf chars like that out of a technicality. A random neutral battlefield isn't always the fairest option.

Bump

The OP look fine so I agree

Bump

Should this be highlighted or

I think it would be a good to highlight the thread.

Considering characters from Digimo or characters like MegaMan.EXE are definitely not bottom tier verses, I agree that being virtual does not automatically make someone assumed to exist on a plane of lower infinity. But as for characters who are just data and unable to interact with the real world, I'm neutral but think it varies. Not all virtual worlds are 2D given the fact that backgrounds and foregrounds exist.

How would this affect Annoying Dog?

Virtual characters' tier 11 would be judged on a case by case basis rather than being mostly 10-C for being data characters; I think this was that this thread alluded regarding them.

Digimon and MegaMan.EXE are different. Both of their verses tread virtual worlds are actual physical places that just so happens to be interactable through computers and shit. These are just fancy parallel universes. They shouldn't be affected by this.


Also as I've stated before, 2-D vs 3-D vs whatever-D has nothing to do with this revision and is a rather oudated way of seeing things. True Virtual Worlds (meaning excluding those like Digimon's) are 11-A not due to being 2-D but due to existing "below" our world. They cannot interact with ours except through indirect methods that don't involve their own power levels and effectively do not exist at our level. Same reason why seeing stuff as fiction is Low 2-C, but backward.

Also Annoying Dog is its own issue.

It's certainly not Low 1-C since it has no actual feats of seeing UT as fiction. If it did it would be Low 1-C. But it doesn't.

Bobsican said:

How would this affect Annoying Dog?

Click to expand...

It should not affect Annoying Dog.

I agree with Saikou's revisions

I would draw the line for fictional world / real world interaction somewhat different.

In my opinion the moment real world stuff is used to interefere with the fictional layer that shouldn't be used for tiering as higher plane of reality.

Things like 10-B dream characters that are "Low 2-C by waking up" since the human waking up destroys the dream shouldn't be a thing.

Likewise stuff like: Virtual character resisting hacking or deletion attempts from normal humans, shouldn't be considered as Tier 2 durability or resistance feats.

I don't particularily agree with that. Because this either 1. Completely ignores certain feats 2. Assumes that real life stuff is only ever equal to fictional stuff.

And both of these options simply do not work.

I'm still saying that stuff like that shouldn't be applied too arbirarily. But when refusing to apply it results in abilities or plot points being ignored entirely is when I draw the line.

I've pointed out an example above but I'll do it again. The Player (Imscared) has a tier for their avatar inside the virtual world that is 2-C. However, this avatar has Type 9 immortality based on their real world self, as the avatar is killed yet resurrected countless times in the game. And this immortality is a very important plot point in the story (as it explains how White Face is ultimately helpless against the player)

So what would happen if we put this character in a VS Match? Do we just ignore one of their main powers entirely? Do we assume that this true self is only 2-C too (making the plot point previously mentioned moot, as well as contradicting the story)?

It's not something we can simply ignore.

Yeah, DT explain it good, virtual worlds aren't lower or higher planes of existence (at least not necessary). In Digimon is like another universe but with different rules, in the case of Giffany she is simple a program (so basically information, neither 2D nor from a lower plane), and then fictional worlds (not as another world, but as a literally fantasy one) are simply... fiction (if a characters there decide to gain transduality it may use the same tier that it used in the fictional world).

I mean, characters like Providence perceive entire 2-A sized multiverses as saved data files, that's probably an example. Not the equivalent of people deleting 3D Worlds.

Antonio please about 1 third of the OP is specifically about splitting genienly 11-A characters and 10-C ones (and virtual worlds that are just alternate universes are not even the topic).

Sir Ovens said:

Ok but what about a verse where a game character is able to directly suck the life force of the humans controlling game avatars?

Do we treat that as higher dimensional absorption or just regular absorption?

Click to expand...

dark souls

Jokes aside, looking through the thread I definitely agree with Saikou's suggestions.

I'm ignoring this to spite you, Mr. Lewd King.

I'll ping you over and over then.

The Matrix is a weird case in that the later movies imply that the real world is a simulation as well.

inb4 Matrix 4 introduces c a r d i a l s

I agree with OP.