Vecna's Immeasurable speed and Hax

[Zenkaibattery1]

Currently the justification for Vecna's Immeasurable speed is "Would likely be able to move in a void outside of the space-time of the entire multiverse". I honestly don't think that is Immeasurable speed at all, he's just potentially moving outisde of space-time, which at best is "likely infinite"

Furthermore "Superior to the time deities beneath him, could likely control the space-time of his own hypothetical realm, can move in stopped time". I don't think that qualifies for a solid infinite speed either. Apparently he scales to other characters beneath him who have Infinite speed, but I looked at some profiles and all they do is scale back to Vecna who has no real infinite speed sourced.

Furthermore, is his 2-C hax applicable to his High 6-A form? Because they are within the same key

 

[Setsuna_tenma]

Bambu replied about the immesurable part

Putting it simply, deities were around before time was a thing. Shar is a good example- she was the void that was there before Ao walked in and created everything. Obyrinths (a variety of demon lord) are also credited with moving about outside of the multiverse to reach this one. And finally, literally all deities as they are were set about in the Dawn War- time is not inherent to the multiverse, and is rather the concept embodied by many lesser deities. I believe Zach made a profile for one such lesser deity some time back. The gods above that lesser deity are above his time.

 

[Warren_Valion]

Moving before time was a thing isn't Immeasurable, but Infinite.

Look at the Golden Goddess from Zelda.

• Di
• Nayru
• Farore

I'm sure there is other stuff that gives them their speed, but existing before time shouldn't be it AFAIK.

 

[Zenkaibattery1]

Being before the concept of time is Infinite, not Immeasurable.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

I guess we're getting into this. The best and easiest to understand justification for Immeasurable speed in D&D comes from the god Mask and the Elder Evil Kezef the Chaos Hound (one of my favorite characters in D&D).

As the lore puts it, Kezef is a feral wolf that tracks the souls of his enemies, destroying them to the point that not even a deity could restore it. He is also impossible to shake off, as what Kezef does is he tracks you through your entire life. He begins from where you started and follows you to the end of your life.

"He does all of this with amazing speed, once tracking four years of Kelemvor's life in just one hour. Once Kezef picks up a creature's scent, it is impossible to hide from him. He can track across worlds and planes as easily as a hunter tracks a bleeding deer." (Elder Evils 3.5e)

This does in fact scale to deities, as Mask, a deity, has been managing to run from Kezef for ages.

 

[Self_Love]

The justifications are weak

 

[Warren_Valion]

I'm sure there is other stuff that gives them their speed, but existing before time shouldn't be it AFAIK.

@Mr. Bambu This ^

Like I said, I have no doubt they have immesarable feats, I'm just saying that predating time as a concept wouldn't be one of them.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Also didn't see the 2-C hax thing. Yes, he has them to a weaker degree but he still maintains the same hax, his High 6-A key is his mind in the body of a mortal (AKA an Avatar).

 

[Andytrenom]

Moving before time existed is infinite, moving before the concept of time existed I'm not sure.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Moving in a timeless void is Infinite. Transcending the concept of time is something else, I believe.

Labelas Enoreth is the physical embodiment of the concept of time.

 

[Antvasima]

Immeasurable speed means being able to instantly attack anywhere and anywhen via speed alone. This seems like a rather unreliable justification for such a rating.

 

[Antvasima]

It may be best if you ask Azathoth to comment here though.

 

[ZacharyGrossman273]

Azathoth mentioned that gods should probably be immeasurable IIRC

 

[Mr. Bambu]

The fact that it was Azzy saying it doesn't make it true. If Azzy has stuff for Immeasurable, I'd like to see it.

 

[ZacharyGrossman273]

Hell, Orcus profile description even mentions it

"Can control the space-time of his own layer of the Abyss, as well as fight against gods who exist beyond the time of the material planes"

 

[Qawsedf234]

I should mention, Vecna's High 6A key is his Demigod state not his avatar. His avatar would have comparable AP to his Demigod form but with stronger powers due to his Lesser God status.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Oh. I thought we just added the Avatar forms, never even noticed.

We should probably add another High 6-A key just for posterity's sake, even if it is just to denote that one just has stronger abilities.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Probably should have another key. As for the thread itself I don't think Vecna has shown the ability to travel across time with his speed. So his last key (and possibly the LOP/Serpent) should be just infinite. Theoretically I guess you could try and backscale him to the phane but it may be iffy.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Qawsed

Kezef the Chaos Hound

 

[Qawsedf234]

If the full quote has it be time travel with raw speed then I can support the rating. But considering the source material it could be some weird in built time travel power.

 

[Zenkaibattery1]

I've asked Azzy to comment here

 

[Mr. Bambu]

''The Chaos Hound can designate a single individual as his prey, and thereafter will never fail to catch the creature's trail. As soon as he designates his prey, he knows the prey's birthplace and can use his plane shift and teleport without error abilities to go there. Thereafter he can use these abilities to follow the creature's "emotional scent," even tracking the entire fabric of their lives until he catches up with them at the present time. He does all of this with amazing speed, once tracking four years of Kelemvor's life in just one hour. Once Kezef picks up a creature's scent, it is impossible to hide from him. He can track across worlds and planes as easily as a hunter tracks a bleeding deer.
	~ Elder Evils 3.5​

''The Chaos Hound does not use teleport without error in the conventional sense, but he becomes an insubstantial ghost and runs with near-limitless speed. While in this state he can run across or through any substance or barrier, and moves as fast as he likes, often moving between two points as if he had teleported.
	~ Elder Evils 3.5​

He is implied to do it through raw speed, yes.

 

[Qawsedf234]

While impressive that seems more like infinite speed rather than immeasurable speed. Going by Ant and what I'm reading you need to be able to time travel with raw speed to get that rating.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

It does. The immeasurable bit is in the first, and is only supported with implications. Like I've said, I'm unsure of the Immeasurable speed stuff, though even now I believe it is only listed as possibly.

 

[Qawsedf234]

From what I got it finds where they're born then rapidly traces the target's life until it finds them in the present. Its not travelling through time as much as following their past emotional sent until it reaches the current locstion.

Like the hound doesn't start in year 10 then runs to year 20. But starts at year 20, finds their sent in Year 1, then tracks it until it reaches their location in Year 20.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Could be. It seems like, based on LoP's page, the verse has had "Possibly Immeasurable" since before 2018.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Could have had that rating, but that doesn't mean it's correct or backed by evidence. Infinite has a lot of support, but Immeasurable seems iffy imo (barring new evidence).

 

[Mr. Bambu]

I agree, I'm not trying to claim "well we already had it so nyeh" sort of deal, I'm just saying this is from before I came back to the wiki. If we can find the people who originally added it we could ask them, if they're still around. I'm aware the two people who used to curate the verse are either perma-banned or inactive.

 

[Zenkaibattery1]

I've asked azzy. But either way, a new jusitication would be needed.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Azzy's busy and, while knowledgeable, generally shouldn't be the main source of info.

 

[VindictiveLoser]

Just from quickly reading through the paragraph about the Chaos Hound doesn't sound like immeasurable. It states he teleports to their birth place and tracks their emotional scent, meaning he follows the path of their emotions. When it says he tracked four years of someone's life in an hour, they meant he'd tracked four years worth of emotions within an hour.

That's all I have to say on the matter.

Edit: looking through it and the second paragraph, it seems he may have infinite or near-infinite speed, since it states his movements appear similar to teleporting, to the point that he may as well be teleporting. It also seems to be limited to a spectral form he enters to pass through all objects, and likely can't attack in that state. Based on what I can infer, it has a state it can enter in which it reaches infinite speed, but it isn't regularly a being with infinite speed.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

...he doesn't teleport.

 

[Qawsedf234]

I also got that @Vindictive. Also for accuracy Bambu the quote about the Chaos Hound comes from Champions of Rui not Elder Evils

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Yeah I noticed after I posted I messed up the source, I was looking at the next quotes down. My bad.

 

[VindictiveLoser]

"can use his plane shift and teleport without error abilities to go there"

that's why I said he teleports. The text seems to indicate that he can, at least until the second in which it relates it to pure speed instead.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

He can shift planes, yes, but he doesn't teleport. Just moves between two points instantly, people confuse it with teleporting.

Regardless, infinite speed is confirmed for gods, and I agree Kezef probably wouldn't maintain the speed in normal form (likely scaling to the lightning dodge calcs).

 

[VindictiveLoser]

Yeah, that's more or less what I was saying. I'm in agreement with infinite since it's blatantly stated he moves with nearly limitless speed, so logically gods and comparable beings should scale to it. Immeasurable I'm neutral on since I haven't seen evidence of it here, but it might exist elsewhere.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Gods also being able to move prior to time is infinite, as is a ton of stuff.

Immeasurable I'd like to hear more on from the people who originally set their stats to that, I'd assume they have the evidence we're looking for, if it exists.

To note, if we cannot find the stuff, we might as well leave them as Infinite for now and come back to this topic if we find evidence later. Considering the sheer size of the verse in question, it isn't unlikely we'd find statements regarding Immeasurable speed later.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Thinking about it the Immortal's would also have infinite speed rather than immeasurable. But I'll look into that later to make sure.

 

[VindictiveLoser]

In that case this should be solved relatively easily, assuming those people come forward soon. I'll be unfollowing this to avoid derailing, and since I'm unlikely to help much. I initially only commented because I wanted to clarify the infinite speed thing, so now that you've answered there's nothing else for me to do here.