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Valkorion Vs Darth Caedus

the only sidious he is prolly stronger than is rots tbh. other than that, he really showed nothing. he does win tho, so there's that. him being rots sidious is good enough for him after. albeit, the difference in skill in the force side of this is quite huge between the two. so vititate aint getting killed so easily either
 
Actually, while Sidious was definitely not as good as Luke as a lightsaber combatant, it is possible that he we stronger in the Force.
 
He's stronger than ROTJ Sidious, it's not an outright stomp, if you thought I implied that, I'll take that responsibility, but even if I steel-manned and said he was just stronger than ROTS Sidious, it's still an easy win
 
I will add your vote

How does he have possibly higher fighting skills. Valkorion's hardly ever touched a lightsaber or any form of non-Force combat. He is more of a Force fighter, while Caedus is more combat.
 
well, this should only apply to his later selves since we know for a fact that whenever he chose a body, he chose a strong one- in all senses- and as far as we know, most of these were warriors, and and even early on, vitiate himself took command of a whole planet. quite honestly, this feat is feasable for anybody strong enough to be council member lvl, so pretty good, but i doubt he couldve done it all through the force, since it does tire its users, and this is a much younger, weaker, and below him in all possible stats available to us than the current valkorion, so i like to personally believe he had some sort of martial skill. and if he doenst, he has it from the bodies he took, which were selected by vitiate himself as the best bodies around. but yeah, caedus is surely more physical, while vitiate is more force-ful
 
Caedus.

His canonically superior to Dark Empire Sidious who himself is superior to ROTJ Sidious who is superior to Valkorion.

Luke Skywalker outright calls Caedus a Match for him.

'"Meanwhile Luke felt a pained exertion in the Force as Saba leapt up to the walkway and walked-limped-off the bridgeThree YVH droids were left. And Jacen. Against Luke and Ben. Jacen was Luke's match, which meant Ben had to cope with three combat droids. The odds weren't good. Then the odds changed."'

~Legacy of the Force: Fury

Caedus mere Aura is enough to feel like a punch to the gut for Legacy era Luke Skywalker


"Luke felt the wave of hatred flow through him. It was so strong it felt like a kick in the gut, and he wondered for an instant if Jacen had perfected some new Force attack But no, the undercurrent was of frustration, helplessness, even fear. It was no attack."

-- Legacy of the Force: Fury

Caedus might not be 1:1 with Luke but his certaintly in the same ballpark

Also what's stopping Caedus from just masking his presence with the force and one shotting? considering he was able to mask both his and Lumiya's presence from Luke Skywalker despite the former being right infront of Luke.

Caeudus also happens to be an absolute master in Shatterpoint, allowing him to effectively find any weakness in Valkorion and exploit it effectively.
 
Well, valk is smarter more experienced, can teleport, has drain, and caedus being above de sidious really isn't the case. Luke was very clearly above him him holding out like that was pis imo. Luke was always shown as faster stronger more experienced, but then he gets caught in this mini made up trap by caedus? Nah. Plus, caedus did have a hard time again his sister, who, while amped and whole he was pretty injured, doesn't take away his speed, power, powers, and strength. Add the fact that Luke totally dominated him with one hand casually and caedus couldn't even move his fingers cuz of it, he really isn't in the de sidious area. Not even close. He should be in the rots rotj sidious era tho
 
> Well, valk is smarter more experienced, can teleport, has drain,

Valk insnt smarter, his experience doesn't mean much here when Jacen has defeated opponents way more experienced than him, Jacen can just mask his presence, force drain aswell,can teleport aswell, can erase memories.

> Luke was very clearly above him him holding out like that was pis imo

just because you disagree doesn't make it PIS, when i can simply argue your Luke example is an outlier when confronted with numerous statements and contradictory feats.

> Luke was always shown as faster stronger more experienced

it's literally stated that his powers continuously grow, also being stronger or faster than suddenly make Cadeus leagues weaker than Luke, when he has feats that put him second only to Luke.

> Plus, caedus did have a hard time again his sister

who was amped by Luke while he had a damaged kidney and several badly injured lightsaber wounds that would kill most characters.

> he really isn't in the de sidious area. Not even close. He should be in the rots rotj sidious era tho

except that he is and not only close but above DE Sidious,he has numerous times been capable of damaging and hurting Luke.
 
Valkorion is thousnads of years old. I don't think Jacen has ever fought anyone more experianced. That doesn't mean Valkorion is a better fighter, but he does have more experiance.
 
I never said that his not experienced just that it wont automatically help him, when he was defeated by characters way less experienced than him while Jacen has defeated characters way more experienced than him.It's moot.
 
valk is 100% smarter. like, caedus isnt an idiot, but he has nothing going for him, while valk fools people left and right, makes galaxy lvl plans, and is the most studied and learned sith of the time. i have never heard of caedus teleporting, nor draining. if u could show us where thats from, that would be nice.

sure, go ahead, show us those contradictory statements. doesn change the fact that cedus is not on his lvl, and he isnt even close to it, if we take in account what luke did to him. that was pis to show that ceadus isnt horrible as a villain.

sure, of course they put him second only to luke, cuz literally any other living being that isnt durron cant even come close with posibly 100 years of traning, so duh. doesnt make them close in power at all, which is what we have literally seen. luke can fight abeloth, who would completely destroy ceadus in no time. 100% pis.

.... i already said she was amped and that he was injured. funny thing tho, cuz i remember ceadus himself saying that injuries are somewhat irrelevant to sith lords, since they can turn that into pain, which becomes hatred, which results in even greater power. i could make a case that cadues was even stronger than before in that fight tbh.

a fork can damage luke. im quite sure a lightsaber should be able to as well. i dont think i need to mention the fact that luke was mentally unstable in that fight, and once he got tired of the bs, he completely fodderized caedus. its a fact. they are not close. plus, years ealier, luke had trouble with shimrra, who was semi equal to DE sidious according to luke himself. i may be wrong, but luke was losing to shimra at the time, so even back then luke himself wasnt as strong as DE sidious. now, luke should be somewhat a little bit stronger than DE sidious. caedus is not even close to that by feats.
 
caedus. the speed advantage and martial skill alongside strength can give him a prety good edge. of course, thats not like he's gonna blitz valk and end, but its something like that.
 
before i actually counter this in detail tomorrow (late by me)

I need tackle the really bad and misinformed ones

> luke can fight abeloth, who would completely destroy ceadus in no time. 100% pis.

This is bad argument, very very very bad. The Luke who fights Abeloth isnt the same Luke who fought Jacen. which is why we seperate them by tiers.

> a fork can damage luke. im quite sure a lightsaber should be able to as well.

stop shifting the goalpost, if character A can hurt character B with his physcal strength and powers his comparable,thats how the wiki works, using your logic we should completely disregard any scaling whatsoever.

> i dont think i need to mention the fact that luke was mentally unstable in that fight, and once he got tired of the bs

no thats not what happened, while Luke was about to collapse Ben stabbed Jacen from behind.

> caedus is not even close to that by feats.

him hurting Luke is the feats
 
(this covers the first two things u asnwered to) wow nice. is that why guys mix DE luke and NJO luke? hmm? cuz they are equal right? cuz if they werent, we would need tiers to separate them, right? ok good. anyhow, the time difference between the luke that fought jacen and the luke that fought abeloth are separated by 3 years. did u know that? 3 years? seems like almost no time to me. i could be wrong of course. he couldve gotten stornger of course. doesnt change the fact that it was only 3 years and that luke IS stronger than caedus. caedus damaging luke means nothing when we luke being leagues and leagues above him. force users are normal humans. they can be damaged by anything, even a normal jedi padawans force field can deflect blaster fire aka lazers that go thorugh metal bars like butter, but can still be taken out in one punch. if luke didnt have a force field, then we cant say that caedus damaged luke's full power, we can only say that he damaged luke's normal human body. literally. the only natural defense that force users have that needs no concentration is their semi immunity to mind fuckery.

ok good. i new i missed something. thanks. still changes nothing about what happened before hand.

i adressed him hurting luke. and if he did hurt luke through luke's force defenses, then it contradicts luke stomping him through the force. like, literaly, u pick- keep the inconsistency, or think of what thought was what happened- luke was not guarding himself. this is somewhat backed up by what u said- he collapsed, reinforcing the fact that he was not in good condicions, meaning his leaving his force defences down is very, very, very likely
 
> is that why guys mix DE luke and NJO luke? hmm? cuz they are equal right?

there's presedence in the story that puts NJO vastly above DE Luke.

> 3 years. did u know that? 3 years? seems like almost no time to me. i could be wrong of course

Luke went from a nobody to besting Vader in 4, also it could have taken a week and it would make no difference.

> caedus damaging luke means nothing when we luke being leagues and leagues above him

this is an oxymoron

> if luke didnt have a force field, then we cant say that caedus damaged luke's full power, we can only say that he damaged luke's normal human body. literally. the only natural defense that force users have that needs no concentration is their semi immunity to mind fuckery.

Force users amp their physcals to the same level this was argued and accepted here on the wiki, it's our standard, if you disagree then make a CRT

> i adressed him hurting luke. and if he did hurt luke through luke's force defenses, then it contradicts luke stomping him through the force

Then Luke stomping is the Outlier because it's inconsistent with every other showing


> literaly, u pick- keep the inconsistency

thats literally you while shifting goalposts


> this is somewhat backed up by what u said- he collapsed, reinforcing the fact that he was not in good condicions, meaning his leaving his force defences down is very, very, very likely


he was in that condition because of the Injuries he got from Jacen both from lightsaber blows and force attacks.
 
"Then Luke stomping is the Outlier because it's inconsistent with every other showing"

Not really. Caedus was somewhat challenge by Kyle Katarn and Mara Jade
 
i know, that was my entire point lmao we still have them in the same key/tier.

do u know how many circumstances are in that final fight? it was purely a duel, which vader understimated luke in, while luke had rage amps that were made stronger by sidious's presence (he has become a nexus by that point) as well as the fact that he copied vader's style (a style made for beating force users) and mixed it with a style made by obi wan to beat vader's style specifically. since vader didnt wanna kill luke (the same was true for luke, but only when he wasnt using the dark side), was (i dont have the word for it- not fully into fighting luke in a mental sense, hesitant, but not so much that it affected his technique and thinking) which made him him lack his pull for the dark side, meaning that he was almost neutral, still in the dark side, but being pulled to the light, which was then made wrose by palpatine who was dark side nexus. heck, after the fight, vader said he was weaker than ever before. after all this, we have sidious, luke, and a few other soruces saying that if vader had used all his powers, he wouldve easily beat luke, and those are all true up until the end of dark empire, i believe. so it took like, i think, 7 plus years to reach vader's lvl. more than half, and that was luke while he trained every day to beat the second stronger being in the galaxy at the time. older luke is not like that at all.

(ill fuse some of ur answeres into this one paragraph) the wiki has this idea that since the force allows people to lift ships and throw around tanks and huge metal doors, it also means that characters using the force to amps themsevles allows them to do the same. this has never been true in universe, and shouldnt be true to us. otherwise, characters wouldnt need force fields, they could just amp their bodies to the max, making it harder than whatever is being thrown at them. we have sooooooo many scenes of characters that can easily bring down buildings through the force who cant even take a strong hit to the face even while using the force to amp themsevles that it shoul be enough to make the wiki notice that telekenises does not equate to their physical power amped by the force. not even close. now, idk how many times caedus hit luke's knee/leg until it gave out, but yes, it is consistent- luke has been damaged by much, much weaker people. so no, this does not make caedus as strong as luke simply because he hurt luke. luke's body isnt solar system lvl simply because he can use the force to augment it. the vader/ luke example above is a great showing of that. vader is literally stronger than gethzerion, joruus, DE luke, and darth krayt (before fotj of course) by the point of just ANH, before his prime, and he still got a broken leg and mafuntioning arm from fighting rage amped luke. if u really think that a persons physical amp= the power of their telekenisis, then im done here man. there's nothing left to say.
 
BruceTheBatman said:
"Then Luke stomping is the Outlier because it's inconsistent with every other showing"
Not really. Caedus was somewhat challenge by Kyle Katarn and Mara Jade
Click to expand...
lemme do this please lol he stomped kyle in the force while mara jade is kinda like an outlier, but for her
 
He didn't stomp Kyle at all. He was winning but Katarn held his own

Code: 
He was beaten when Caedus threw a speeder at his back and then stabbed him mid air
 
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