Urgent Reaction Speed Conversation

[Antvasima]

Just a reminder that any changes to our speed system would likely require massive amounts of work to apply to all affected VS Battles Wiki pages, so all of this needs to be evaluated extremely carefully, including if the benefits are sufficiently considerable to warrant the required workload, before anything is decided here.

 

[Agnaa]

I don't think the line for travel speed should be touched.

I think the proposed changes to reaction speed are logical, but would require an incredible amount of work. Reaction speed would effectively be deleted entirely, with most feats instead turning into combat speed feats, and all perception speed feats being renamed into reaction speed feats. Due to the way we index these, this would require checking every single profile on the site manually.

In some cases, this would also require recalculations, and some would simply need to be removed entirely due to recalculations being impossible.

I'm unsure about the fiction-wide basis for changing our system this way. While I have seen one or two examples where a distinction between dodge-speed and intricate-combat-speed is made, most series I'm familiar with don't seem to worry about those details, so I'm happy to handwave them away, but I'd like to hear more from others on this topic.

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

Reaction speed should not just be for characters which have precog/instinctive reactions/improved senses. Those don't improve the speed one moves at (which is how we determine speed ratings), they just give more time for one to move in response to something.

I'm assuming this was in response to me? If so, I feel like you somewhat misunderstood what I was saying.
I'm not arguing that characters with enhanced sensory/precognitive abilities are the only ones who should be granted reaction speed. I'm saying that characters with these abilities are usually much easier to distinguish as having higher reaction speed than combat speed due to these abilities inherently making reacting to things faster than the user a lot easier on average.
So, not something absolutely set in stone or anything, but definitely a factor to consider and something that makes the distinction easier to make imo.
Of course, this also doesn't mean that characters with these abilities can't scale to these feats in terms of combat speed. That would entirely depend on each character/series' individual context.

 

[Agnaa]

I'm assuming this was in response to me?

I was responding to Flashlight

I'm on the ball that conscious actions should count towards combat speeds; however, reflexes are a tougher one. If they DO count for a speed form, reflexes would count as reaction speed, but even then it's admittedly dicey.

Your view is quite reasonable.

EDIT: I also wanna add, that if we do make reactions timeframe-based, it's probably a bad idea to include precognition, improved senses, and similar abilities. Improved senses (in the form being discussed) don't give you a faster reaction speed, they let you discern something is happening from a longer distance. Your time from having the information available, to processing it appropriately, is the same regardless. Precognition gets really weird because it's often effectively negative reaction speed; you can react to events and act accordingly before they even happen, which doesn't really fit into our systems too well.

 

[Flashlight237]

I think that's quite an oddly narrow thing to base an entire speed rating off of. Verses which have special abilities that grant higher temporary levels of speed already can have their own ratings for it.

I'd also point out that reaction speed measures the speed of the character. In truth, simply having a precog ability won't increase this, it will simply give you more time to dodge with your current level of speed, letting you dodge things you wouldn't otherwise notice.

If they actually do move at a different speed, as our rating requires, I don't think your argument functions at all.

I mean, yeah, it's true that things like instinctive action exists as an ability, but my aim is to focus on the movement aspects of it all (hence why I pointed out different forms of dodging and how complex they can be), which is what this thread is mainly about. Thing is, the simple way of putting instinctive reaction is "your body knows what to do," hence why characters like Yurine Hanazono would just dodge whatever's coming without really thinking about it, but there's the problem.

Instinctive action is basically "your body knows what to do and acts accordingly," meanwhile, reflexes are an umbrella sort of thing and can just be as simple as... Reacting to stimuli like in that Homer Simpson thing I just linked where he just reacts to glass being broken by a bullet (which I've stated before that breaking glass is something everyone's going to react to because, duh! It's a loud, scary noise..!). You're generally not going to expect basic reflexes like that to apply to any form of speed unlike things like conscious actions and instinctive action.

Also, a quick cherry-pick here, that entire second paragraph is even narrower than anything I have written in my initial argument, I mean 1. No, reaction speed is more like how a character can process something and act accordingly (unlike perception speed where it's just the speed at which we can process something), not so much as how fast they can run, fight, or fly; and 2. Pretty sure that second sentence was something we talked about in KingTempest's revision on perception speed and suggested formulae.

 

[DontTalkDT]

Logically, yes, but enormously higher combat speed than running speed is an inherent trait of most fiction, which does not tend to operate logically at all in this regard, and we would have to overhaul many thousands of pages at this point if we attempt to modify our standards for accommodating for that tendency.

What do you mean with "combat speed" here? If you say a higher combat speed than running speed is a trait, that depends a lot on what you mean when you talk about combat speed.
Do you mean characters who can not move (e.g. dodge) in response to attacks coming in with their combat speed or do you mean characters who can dodge such attacks but can't necessarily run far distances with that speed?

Because if you mean that characters with combat speed can not move themselves around in combat with that speed, then we actually have a massive problem regarding the amount of pages we would need modified.
Remember, our speed standards are that if a speed stat has no clarifier for what kind of speed it is, then that means it's combat speed. (Hence our speed page saying "The term "Speed" normally refers to Combat Speed" and the standard format for character profiles saying "Speed: It is generally "Combat Speed" (in bold). ")
Virtually all profiles on the wiki list a speed value without a modifier. Which makes sense if, as I say, we assume combat speed means that you can dodge, move around in combat, react and attack at that speed. Then all speed values are set by just saying what the combat speed is.
If we assume that a character with only combat speed listed is a sitting duck as we don't know how fast they can move their whole body, then most profiles on the wiki don't list how fast they can move their whole body to dodge and get around in combat, despite that certainly being the intention when listing these speed values. So virtually all profiles on the wiki would need to get a travel speed added to signify that they can run or fly in combat as fast as their already listed speed value, as that usually is the intention behind their existing speed stat.
Personally, I would much prefer if we continue to assume that a character that is, say, listed as just "supersonic" is supersonic all across the board, as that seems like the status quo.

Or we need to redefine speed stats listed without specifier to not be combat speed but something else. Would also require some revision, though, I imagine.

 

[FinePoint]

Virtually all profiles on the wiki list a speed value without a modifier.

I think it's reasonable for a profile to do that if that character specifically doesn't show a significant difference between various types of speed.

I think specifying different types is only really needed when that difference is evident.

But in the case where it's evident, it seems there's a lot of confusion/contention about where exactly the boundaries are drawn.

And I think a large part of that is simply the nomenclature being counterintuitive. "Reaction Speed" should be inclusive of "Perception Speed" and be measured in time. "Combat Speed" should cover pretty much every short movement made during combat, and "Travel Speed" should cover movement over longer distances.

But if we're dead-set on making Combat Speed inclusive of both travel and short movement, the name for the short movements should at least be something more intuitive like "Reflex Speed" or "Burst Speed" or something.

 

[FinePoint]

There are very very few series that would give us sufficient information to separate perception speed and reaction speed by that criteria.

Also, I forgot to respond to this.

This is correct, but the reason is simply that for a vast majority of characters their perception speed is negligible compared to their reaction speed.

For example, in real life the average person has a perception speed of 10ms for sound, and 20-40ms for light.
In contrast, the average human reaction time is 250ms, which is 25x higher for sound, and 6.25x-12.5x higher for light.
Therefore, compared to reaction time, perception speed is usually negligible and not considered.

So I think the solution is sort of what we already do, which is to simply not separate them unless it's relevant, and that evidence does exist.

Otherwise, we can default to assuming that their perception speed is negligible compared to their reaction speed.

 

[DontTalkDT]

I think it's reasonable for a profile to do that if that character specifically doesn't show a significant difference between various types of speed.

It is. Like, that's the intended meaning of doing so. Same speed across the board.
Currently, the rating that speed without specifier refers to is defined as 'combat speed', though, so if we argue combat speed to mean something different now, we get a problem.

And I think a large part of that is simply the nomenclature being counterintuitive. "Reaction Speed" should be inclusive of "Perception Speed" and be measured in time.

We have made perception time after reaction speed long existed to cover for the application you are thinking of.
But, definition-wise, the idea of reaction speed is fine. A speed is not a timeframe, it has a component of distance moved as the reaction page says. Hence, as said, I understand reaction speed as the speed of movement that don't involve moving ones own body.

"Combat Speed" should cover pretty much every short movement made during combat, and "Travel Speed" should cover movement over longer distances.

Well, depends on what you mean with short movement. I understand combat speed, in the current usage of the term, to mean the combination of all speed values, with the possible exception of movement over longer distances (distances longer than what one would usually run during a fight).

But if we're dead-set on making Combat Speed inclusive of both travel and short movement, the name for the short movements should at least be something more intuitive like "Reflex Speed" or "Burst Speed" or something.

I wouldn't go for a big revision process solely for the sake of semantics. Ideally, we only make it more clear how we currently use the existing terms and, if there are speeds not covered then, add new ones for those categories.

 

[Agnaa]

If we assume that a character with only combat speed listed is a sitting duck as we don't know how fast they can move their whole body, then most profiles on the wiki don't list how fast they can move their whole body to dodge and get around in combat, despite that certainly being the intention when listing these speed values. So virtually all profiles on the wiki would need to get a travel speed added to signify that they can run or fly in combat as fast as their already listed speed value, as that usually is the intention behind their existing speed stat.

I couldn't really find an appropriate part of your post to quote, because the whole thing is kinda built on fault premises, but this one might be the most exemplary.

You seem to be treating it here as if Unknown travel speed, Supersonic combat speed means that they can punch and duck and tilt their head at Supersonic speeds, but that we have no idea how quickly they move their entire body.

When in actuality, the default interpretation for that sort of thing is that they can move their entire body, and any subset of it, over combat-typical distances at Supersonic speed, but that we have no idea how quickly they'd run a marathon.

I'm kinda surprised you didn't know that, because I was making arguments using that interpretation during my tourney recently, when discussing whether or not characters qualified. Since the tiersetter had Unknown travel speed, I argued that certain other characters with decent travel speed would be able to kite her indefinitely.

Although, later on in the post, you do say that long-distance travel is a possible exception, so I'm not sure what to make of that contextually, as you list both options, when in reality we need to be abiding by one and only one.

I think it's reasonable for a profile to do that if that character specifically doesn't show a significant difference between various types of speed.

I think specifying different types is only really needed when that difference is evident.

It is. Like, that's the intended meaning of doing so. Same speed across the board.
Currently, the rating that speed without specifier refers to is defined as 'combat speed', though, so if we argue combat speed to mean something different now, we get a problem.

Yeah that's fair. Looking back at my pages, I think I slip into that way of indexing when I'm not thinking about it too hard, but when I pay attention, I separate combat and travel speed as if combat doesn't necessarily confer travel.

I think we do kind of have an issue either way, but treating combat speed as conferring travel speed would probably require less actual changes to be made, even if the number of profiles we need to check is the same.

Also, I forgot to respond to this.

This is correct, but the reason is simply that for a vast majority of characters their perception speed is negligible compared to their reaction speed.

For example, in real life the average person has a perception speed of 10ms for sound, and 20-40ms for light.
In contrast, the average human reaction time is 250ms, which is 25x higher for sound, and 6.25x-12.5x higher for light.
Therefore, compared to reaction time, perception speed is usually negligible and not considered.

So I think the solution is sort of what we already do, which is to simply not separate them unless it's relevant, and that evidence does exist.

Otherwise, we can default to assuming that their perception speed is negligible compared to their reaction speed.

The issue is that being careful with one makes the other extreme. By treating perception speed as "negligible", we're moreso treating it as extremely fast, despite a lack of feats for that. Would we give other characters that speedblitz them without being perceived a 12.5x speed multiplier? It's not really calc stacking at that point, since our calc would be outputting that they can perceive in that speed level, and we'd just be scaling directly to that speed level.

We have made perception time after reaction speed long existed to cover for the application you are thinking of.
But, definition-wise, the idea of reaction speed is fine. A speed is not a timeframe, it has a component of distance moved as the reaction page says. Hence, as said, I understand reaction speed as the speed of movement that don't involve moving ones own body.

What sorts of movements would be covered by it, then? Movement of attacks one creates goes under attack speed.

Well, depends on what you mean with short movement. I understand combat speed, in the current usage of the term, to mean the combination of all speed values, with the possible exception of movement over longer distances (distances longer than what one would usually run during a fight).

We need to decide whether that "possible" exception is an actual exception, since it impacts a lot of matches.

 

[Antvasima]

What do you mean with "combat speed" here? If you say a higher combat speed than running speed is a trait, that depends a lot on what you mean when you talk about combat speed.
Do you mean characters who can not move (e.g. dodge) in response to attacks coming in with their combat speed or do you mean characters who can dodge such attacks but can't necessarily run far distances with that speed?

Because if you mean that characters with combat speed can not move themselves around in combat with that speed, then we actually have a massive problem regarding the amount of pages we would need modified.
Remember, our speed standards are that if a speed stat has no clarifier for what kind of speed it is, then that means it's combat speed. (Hence our speed page saying "The term "Speed" normally refers to Combat Speed" and the standard format for character profiles saying "Speed: It is generally "Combat Speed" (in bold). ")
Virtually all profiles on the wiki list a speed value without a modifier. Which makes sense if, as I say, we assume combat speed means that you can dodge, move around in combat, react and attack at that speed. Then all speed values are set by just saying what the combat speed is.
If we assume that a character with only combat speed listed is a sitting duck as we don't know how fast they can move their whole body, then most profiles on the wiki don't list how fast they can move their whole body to dodge and get around in combat, despite that certainly being the intention when listing these speed values. So virtually all profiles on the wiki would need to get a travel speed added to signify that they can run or fly in combat as fast as their already listed speed value, as that usually is the intention behind their existing speed stat.
Personally, I would much prefer if we continue to assume that a character that is, say, listed as just "supersonic" is supersonic all across the board, as that seems like the status quo.

Or we need to redefine speed stats listed without specifier to not be combat speed but something else. Would also require some revision, though, I imagine.

Just to clarify, fiction, or at least most of the fiction that I am familiar with that is hosted in our wiki, tends to allow characters to fight each other, such as dodging lasers and successfully striking other characters that can dodge lasers, without allowing them to run at anywhere near that speed. Marvel Comics is one of the most extreme examples for this type of dichotomy, but it happens often elsewhere as well. That is the reason for why our system has separated combat and travel speed for a very long time.

 

[Agnaa]

Yeah, thinking about it, combining the two would make any situation where any noticeably fast character takes a non-negligible amount of time to travel a large distance an anti-feat (i.e. any nigh-SoL character taking more than 0.1 seconds to move across a country). And that sorta thing pops up all the time.

 

[FinePoint]

We have made perception time after reaction speed long existed to cover for the application you are thinking of.
But, definition-wise, the idea of reaction speed is fine. A speed is not a timeframe, it has a component of distance moved as the reaction page says.

Well, definition-wise, we completely made it up. "Reaction time" is a real term, and "reaction speed" is a very common variation of it.

Therefore, seemingly, even people who have read the speed page before will instinctively associate our made-up term with the real one, which I think is actually the source of a lot of confusion.

Hence, as said, I understand reaction speed as the speed of movement that don't involve moving ones own body.

Also, is this a typo? How can you have any movement not involving moving your body?

Well, depends on what you mean with short movement. I understand combat speed, in the current usage of the term, to mean the combination of all speed values, with the possible exception of movement over longer distances (distances longer than what one would usually run during a fight).

I mean it sounds like we agree on what combat speed is, essentially.

I wouldn't go for a big revision process solely for the sake of semantics. Ideally, we only make it more clear how we currently use the existing terms and, if there are speeds not covered then, add new ones for those categories.

Indeed, and on that point, this is the actual definition of combat speed on the speed page:
"The speed at which a character can fight."

So I think it's pretty obvious why the community seems to be torn between the difference between that and Reaction Speed, which is defined far more explicitly. In fact, it seems most people think they're completely different things, which you evidently don't, and I'd say evidently isn't made clear if that was always the intention. The only mention of it being an inclusive category is indirectly at the top, where it says "Speed normally refers to Combat Speed."

Also, Reaction Speed mentions that it tends to be higher than "movement speed"- which isn't even a category, and therefore is completely contradicted by its own definition of granting short movement.

It baffles me that the page contains basically an essay on things like timeless voids, immeasurable speeds, and other very specific theoretical stuff, but when it comes to actually defining important key elements of every profile it decides that one sentence and a vibe is enough.

So back to your your first point:

Currently, the rating that speed without specifier refers to is defined as 'combat speed', though, so if we argue combat speed to mean something different now, we get a problem.

I really don't think it does, because it was never properly defined in the first place.
In fact, the definition is so devoid of specificity that it currently means nothing.
So to me, changing it to mean something different is to simply change it to mean anything at all.

 

[KingTempest]

Also, is this a typo? How can you have any movement not involving moving your body?

Head, neck, eyes, i guess

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

I read it as the "Motor movements" which comes afterwards when perceiving and responding to your brain

 

[DontTalkDT]

I couldn't really find an appropriate part of your post to quote, because the whole thing is kinda built on fault premises, but this one might be the most exemplary.

You seem to be treating it here as if Unknown travel speed, Supersonic combat speed means that they can punch and duck and tilt their head at Supersonic speeds, but that we have no idea how quickly they move their entire body.

When in actuality, the default interpretation for that sort of thing is that they can move their entire body, and any subset of it, over combat-typical distances at Supersonic speed, but that we have no idea how quickly they'd run a marathon.

I'm kinda surprised you didn't know that, because I was making arguments using that interpretation during my tourney recently, when discussing whether or not characters qualified. Since the tiersetter had Unknown travel speed, I argued that certain other characters with decent travel speed would be able to kite her indefinitely.

Although, later on in the post, you do say that long-distance travel is a possible exception, so I'm not sure what to make of that contextually, as you list both options, when in reality we need to be abiding by one and only one.

The problem here is that our official travel speed definition is (on the speed page): "The speed at which a character or object can move by running, or through similar means that do not involve flight or teleportation."
That at no point mentions it being over long range. By the specific definition we have written down combat speed does seem to currently incorporate travel speed.

If the question is whether I'm willing to establish the distinction to make travel speed about long-distance things specifically, then I am. (long distance needs a definitions then, probably)
I have my doubts that it is currently in consistent usage like that, though, and there is debate to be had regarding how stamina factors into the distinction, I imagine.

What sorts of movements would be covered by it, then? Movement of attacks one creates goes under attack speed.

I meant movements not involving moving one's whole body. Pressing a button before an attack far faster than you reaches you, or moving your wrist to deflect a bullet. That kind of thing.

Just to clarify, fiction, or at least most of the fiction that I am familiar with that is hosted in our wiki, tends to allow characters to fight each other, such as dodging lasers and successfully striking other characters that can dodge lasers, without allowing them to run at anywhere near that speed. Marvel Comics is one of the most extreme examples for this type of dichotomy, but it happens often elsewhere as well. That is the reason for why our system has separated combat and travel speed for a very long time.

The way I think that would work with our rankings:

• A character that can punch fast enough to hit a lightspeed character, but can only move their whole body at supersonic speed (so, couldn't move their whole body to the side to dodge a lightbeam), would be ranked as "Supersonic with Speed of Light reactions", not "lightspeed with supersonic travel speed". Because the character wouldn't have Speed of Light Combat Speed, since basic combat actions, like dodging or charging at the opponent, are not possible of the Speed of Light for them.
• A character that can dodge lightspeed attacks by moving their whole body to the side (running, jumping etc.) but can only run from one city to the next at supersonic speed, would be ranked "Speed of Light, with Supersonic travel speed". This character has Speed of Light combat speed (the specifier "combat speed" is omitted as usual) but can't travel far distances that fast. (at least if we properly establish travel speed as being about long distances)
• A character who can dodge at the speed of light and run to another city at the speed of light would be ranked "Speed of Light, with Speed of Light travel speed"

Well, definition-wise, we completely made it up. "Reaction time" is a real term, and "reaction speed" is a very common variation of it.

Therefore, seemingly, even people who have read the speed page before will instinctively associate our made-up term with the real one, which I think is actually the source of a lot of confusion.

The source of a lot of confusion is our definitions currently being way to vague, not the semantics of the names.

I mean it sounds like we agree on what combat speed is, essentially.

Indeed, and on that point, this is the actual definition of combat speed on the speed page:
"The speed at which a character can fight."

So I think it's pretty obvious why the community seems to be torn between the difference between that and Reaction Speed, which is defined far more explicitly. In fact, it seems most people think they're completely different things, which you evidently don't, and I'd say evidently isn't made clear if that was always the intention. The only mention of it being an inclusive category is indirectly at the top, where it says "Speed normally refers to Combat Speed."

Also, Reaction Speed mentions that it tends to be higher than "movement speed"- which isn't even a category, and therefore is completely contradicted by its own definition of granting short movement.

It baffles me that the page contains basically an essay on things like timeless voids, immeasurable speeds, and other very specific theoretical stuff, but when it comes to actually defining important key elements of every profile it decides that one sentence and a vibe is enough.

So back to your your first point:

I really don't think it does, because it was never properly defined in the first place.
In fact, the definition is so devoid of specificity that it currently means nothing.
So to me, changing it to mean something different is to simply change it to mean anything at all.

And with that, let's get to the meat of things. I think we all see that we need to improve our definitions to actually be more clear. Many things currently are more a general gist instead of a precise definition.


Here are my proposals:

• Attack Speed: Stays as it is. Definition seems fine.
• Combat Speed: Reflects the speed at which a character is able to perform close combat. In practice, to have a certain rating in combat speed means to have at least that rating in Reaction Speed, approximately that speed in Perception Time, and has the ability to move their whole body at at least that speed over short distances, in order to dodge attacks and to keep up with the positioning of a character who can move at such speeds in combat. In pratice, the perception time required is often implicitely assumed as fulfilled for characters capable of keeping up with characters capable of with movement speed of the given rating in close combat. The classifier of "combat speed" can be omitted on profiles. I.e. if a profile just states a speed rating without specifying which kind of speed it is, then combat speed is what is meant.
• Travel Speed: The speed at which a character is able to move themselves over vast distances. Note that this is not included in the scope of combat speed, which only covers short distance movements. Note that a character with higher travel speed than combat speed, might need to accelerate for a considerable time to gain their top speed.
• Reaction Speed: The speed at which a character is able to perform actions which do not involve moving their body as a whole. For example blocking an attack with a sword or pulling the trigger of a gun. Contrary to travel and combat speed, this does not allow a character to change their location.
• Flight Speed: To be used in conjunction with other speeds if the character can fly at a different speed to which they can run. This may refer to travel speed via flight or combat speed via flight and should be clarified on the profile.

What this isn't yet including is a clear definition of the line between short and long distances. We also kinda end up without a way to specify a short distance movement speed that isn't combat speed. Buuut... I have never seen a case for which that is relevant. If needed, we could establish something like "dashing speed" or "sprinting speed" or whatever.

 

[FinePoint]

Here are my proposals:

Well it is certainly better than before.
My personal nitpicks aside, I'll support anything which actually provides a clear definition.

 

[Damage3245]

The proposals by DontTalk look good to me.

 

[Dalesean027]

Here are my proposals:

What this isn't yet including is a clear definition of the line between short and long distances. We also kinda end up without a way to specify a short distance movement speed that isn't combat speed. Buuut... I have never seen a case for which that is relevant. If needed, we could establish something like "dashing speed" or "sprinting speed" or whatever.

The proposals seem fine, I've no qualms as it is

Edit: actually there is something then I wonder looking again

 

[Arkenis]

Got permission from Finepoint. I think examples for what you guys consider for the speed type would be nice as a standard in the new changes. Like showing FTL Flight or MHS perception speed characters.

 

[KingTempest]

Why is something like blocking with a sword reaction speed? Can combat speed not easily apply with that?

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

I meant movements not involving moving one's whole body. Pressing a button before an attack far faster than you reaches you, or moving your wrist to deflect a bullet. That kind of thing.

And Attack Speed is only a thing when it's speed is heavily separate from it's combat speed

For example... An attack via barely carrying a 5 ton sword, would make it a slower Attack Speed than your combat speeds, and an attack technique that moves faster than normal or usage of enhanced speed equipment for an attack, would make it faster than your usual combat speeds

A character that can punch fast enough to hit a lightspeed character, but can only move their whole body at supersonic speed (so, couldn't move their whole body to the side to dodge a lightbeam), would be ranked as "Supersonic with Speed of Light reactions", not "lightspeed with supersonic travel speed". Because the character wouldn't have Speed of Light Combat Speed, since basic combat actions, like dodging or charging at the opponent, are not possible of the Speed of Light for them.

Wait... How?? If they can physically punch fast enough to hit a light speed character, their combat speed (move their whole body to the side to dodge light beam) would have to be relative to that speed unless that specific punching speed is enhanced somehow, which would in turn make it Attack Speed, no?

A character that can dodge lightspeed attacks by moving their whole body to the side (running, jumping etc.) but can only run from one city to the next at supersonic speed, would be ranked "Speed of Light, with Supersonic travel speed". This character has Speed of Light combat speed (the specifier "combat speed" is omitted as usual) but can't travel far distances that fast. (at least if we properly establish travel speed as being about long distances)

This makes sense

A character who can dodge at the speed of light and run to another city at the speed of light would be ranked "Speed of Light, with Speed of Light travel speed"

This also makes sense

• Reaction Speed: The speed at which a character is able to perform actions which do not involve moving their body as a whole. For example blocking an attack with a sword or pulling the trigger of a gun. Contrary to travel and combat speed, this does not allow a character to change their location.

Pulling the trigger of a gun makes sense, blocking an attack with a sword doesn't really.. especially as an example, As that can both be within combat speed or attack speed of a character

Something like blocking with shield makes more sense, like kinda shown here but then again... Blocking with a shield can also scale to ones combat speed/attack speed

---

• Combat Speed: Reflects the speed at which a character is able to perform close combat. In practice, to have a certain rating in combat speed means to have at least that rating in Reaction Speed, approximately that speed in Perception Time, and has the ability to move their whole body at at least that speed over short distances, in order to dodge attacks and to keep up with the positioning of a character who can move at such speeds in combat. In pratice, the perception time required is often implicitely assumed as fulfilled for characters capable of keeping up with characters capable of with movement speed of the given rating in close combat. The classifier of "combat speed" can be omitted on profiles. I.e. if a profile just states a speed rating without specifying which kind of speed it is, then combat speed is what is meant.

It's also possibly for characters that can move and fight at a speed without being able to actually react or precieve their own movement speeds, and just attack randomly for example... So wouldn't something like that kinda contradict that sentence or?

 

[Agnaa]

At this point, I'm just going to fault-find DT's definitions.

I've bolded some portions with spelling/grammar issues.

Combat Speed: Reflects the speed at which a character is able to perform close combat. In practice, to have a certain rating in combat speed means to have at least that rating in Reaction Speed, approximately that speed in Perception Time, and has the ability to move their whole body at at least that speed over short distances, in order to dodge attacks and to keep up with the positioning of a character who can move at such speeds in combat. In pratice, the perception time required is often implicitely assumed as fulfilled for characters capable of keeping up with characters capable of with movement speed of the given rating in close combat. The classifier of "combat speed" can be omitted on profiles. I.e. if a profile just states a speed rating without specifying which kind of speed it is, then combat speed is what is meant.

That perception time requirement seems like it could cause issues with characters who fight instinctively. Although, I guess we could technically separate out their own perception time, and the perception time granted by that ability which is usable in combat.

The last sentence is explained elsewhere on the page, so I'm meh about including it.

What this isn't yet including is a clear definition of the line between short and long distances.

I have a few ideas that could work for this:

1. Define it based on a fixed distance. This is the simplest, but runs into its own oddities that I'll explore with the other options.
2. Define it originally from a fixed distance, but scale it to their size. This catches issues of how some characters are so small that they'd never be able to get travel speed, and other characters are so large that they'd automatically get travel speed, under #1.
3. Define it originally from a fixed distance, but scale it to their speed rating, so they'd need to run for a certain amount of "subjective time" to reach it. On top of properly handling the cases caught by #2, this also catches many characters who would otherwise get travel speed incidentally during combat (say, human-sized characters that fight giant monsters while blitzing around them). But this does have the issues of causing characters with infinite and above speed to require very strange circumstances to get travel speed.
4. Define it based on how far they canonically travel during active combat, and treat their speeds as applying up to their own borders. This accounts for pretty much all situations, including characters whose fights go across multiple timelines, but makes those ratings mean different things, even among characters with the same speed. Although, admittedly, #3 would vary between characters with different speeds, and #2 would vary between characters with different sizes, which might already be similarly wonky.

I'm not too interested in selecting one over the other, since they all have noteworthy tradeoffs.

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Also, I'd emphasise that this will be a ginormous revision. We may want to split it into its own thread, once DT's suggestion is refined, so we can get all staff to evaluate it.

I do think we'd need to do some major site-wide changes regardless, but we should vet something that big as much as possible, first.

 

[Antvasima]

Why is something like blocking with a sword reaction speed? Can combat speed not easily apply with that?

I am also very concerned about this, because, as far as I am aware, currently almost all of our character pages count these types of feats as combat speed, so it would require an absolutely enormous revision for a very large part of our wiki pages, and that kind of effort should definitely be prioritised for other types of far more relevant projects, such as Damage's infobox-adding project, which I am ashamed to say that I still haven't managed to help get organises and applied after a few years.

Meaning, I do not think that a comparatively seemingly marginal issue such as this seems remotely worth the required effort to change.

 

[Agnaa]

I am also very concerned about this, because, as far as I am aware, currently almost all of our character pages count these types of feats as combat speed, so it would require an absolutely enormous revision for a very large part of our wiki pages, and that kind of effort should definitely be prioritised for other types of far more relevant projects, such as Damage's infobox-adding project, which I am ashamed to say that I still haven't managed to help get organises and applied after a few years.

Meaning, I do not think that a comparatively seemingly marginal issue such as this seems remotely worth the required effort to change.

I'm concerned that our current fuzzy borders for these sorts of things mean that, no matter which polciy we ultimately enshrine, there will be hundreds of pages which don't line up with that, which would need to be tracked down and changed.

 

[FinePoint]

Meaning, I do not think that a comparatively seemingly marginal issue such as this seems remotely worth the required effort to change.

I'm concerned that our current fuzzy borders for these sorts of things mean that, no matter which polciy we ultimately enshrine, there will be hundreds of pages which don't line up with that, which would need to be tracked down and changed.

I share Agnaa's concern, though perhaps with a different interpretation:

I think technically pages are already inconsistent to the point that not doing anything about it would merely be to continue masking or ignoring the issue which already exists.

Therefore, if every page is already inconsistent, making our criteria more clear won't actually make it worse, so much as merely make it more obvious.

 

[Antvasima]

Hmm. I think that we should at least preferably stick as close to our current standards (that I briefly mentioned above) as possible in that case, just clarify them better.

 

[FinePoint]

Hmm. I think that we should at least preferably stick as close to our current standards (that I briefly mentioned above) as possible in that case, just clarify them better.

Indeed, I do agree it's probably the path of least resistance to attempt and match the standards to what most people most likely already assumed.

That said, I haven't analyzed nearly enough pages on the website to be able to say comfortably what that is.

So in that regard, I trust you more than myself.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, as far as I understand, reflexes/dodging speed is usually limited to dodging alone, whereas combat speed is exactly that, including being able to fight with other characters who have demonstrated a specific dodging speed, and if those characters can fight back in turn, they also get combat speed rather than reaction speed, so in practice reaction speed is seldom applied to any characters as far as I am aware.

 

[KLOL506]

I also think that blocking strikes with a sword (And by extension shields or bracelets or similar) should not be limited to reaction speed but rather combat speed, as it's a significantly more complex action than just say... shoving yourself to the side to dodge an attack. Limiting combat speed to full-body movements is also just plain-counterintuitive and goes against the very biomechanics of a human body. Complexity of the action matters more than how much of the body you move.

 

[Agnaa]

My preferred definitions for them are those I outlined elsewhere:

Reaction Speed is defined as a short burst of movement done in reaction to something (the most prototypical example being dodging a projectile).

Combat Speed is defined as a series of short movements that they can process and respond to (the most prototypical example being fighting someone, throwing punches and dodging them at comparable speeds).

Perception Speed is defined as the timeframe over which one can be consciously aware of something, and so being able to activate thought-based abilities in response (the most prototypical example being thinking an incoming projectile out of existence).

Attack Speed is the speed at which any combat-relevant thing sourced from the character travels at (the most prototypical example being firing a gun).

Travel Speed is the speed at which a character can move over long distances without flying (the most prototypical example being a motorcycle).

Flight Speed is the speed at which a character can move over long distances while flying (the most prototypical example being flying through space).

Some of these overlap; a combat speed feat is also reaction speed and perception speed. But many of them don't; travel speed can be far faster or far slower than reaction speed.

Since reaction speed is only one short movement, and isn't the speed a character could continuously fight at, they should not be equivocated.

Really, they're the definitions I thought we already had, but as evidenced by this thread, that isn't the case.

But I'm ultimately not married to these definitions, I do think our choice for these is somewhat arbitrary. The suggestions presented haven't been so out of line that I'd staunchly oppose them.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, as far as I understand, reflexes/dodging speed is usually limited to dodging alone, whereas combat speed is exactly that, including being able to fight with other characters who have demonstrated a specific dodging speed, and if those characters can fight back in turn, they also get combat speed rather than reaction speed, so in practice reaction speed is seldom applied to any characters as far as I am aware.

Can you reword your suggested definitions based on what I said here please?

 

[Agnaa]

Well then they wouldn't be my preferred/suggested definitions

But I could do so later, if you think it'd help.

 

[Catzlaflame]

But I'm ultimately not married to these definitions

You are, I was the ring-bearer.

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My $0.02, granted, this probably won’t be a popular opinion

Reacting to stuff is inherently an aspect of combat. I.e. when you’re fighting someone, you’re literally always reacting to your opponent’s attacks.

The problem, as DDM outlined earlier, was that certain characters react to things wayyy faster than they fight, and thus the birth of “reaction speed.”

In these instances, people proved that characters (such as Spider-Man I believe he said?) have inconsistencies with their reaction speed and otherwise.

The point I’m making here is that, in this instance, the inherent assumption was that combat speed and reaction speed were equal UNTILL it was proven otherwise.

Cus logically speaking whether someone raises their sword (1) in response to a separate attack or (2) to initiate their own attack, has marginal differences.

So I would support some kinda note about that included in the definition.

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Beyond this, I personally prefer Agnaa’s outline to DTs.

 

[Antvasima]

But I could do so later, if you think it'd help.

Thank you. That would be greatly appreciated, yes.

 

[Agnaa]

Ant's views on speed seem to be:

Reaction Speed is speed used exclusively for dodging, but never for attacking.

Combat Speed is a more generic speed rating, able to be applied while attacking and dodging.

A character who has a Reaction Speed feat, and can land hits on a character who can land hits on them, would have Combat Speed roughly comparable to their Reaction Speed feat.

Assuming he holds the same views as me for other speed ratings, that would leave us with:

Perception Speed is the timeframe needed for conscious awareness, such as the activation of thought-based abilities.

Attack Speed is the speed of any combat-relevant thing sourced from the character, such as a bullet from a gun.

Travel Speed is the speed at which a character can move over long distances without flying.

Flight Speed is the speed at which a character can move over long distances while flying.

 

[KingTempest]

I'm fine with that

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Ant's views on speed seem to be:

Assuming he holds the same views as me for other speed ratings, that would leave us with:

Looks good to me.

Though, I'm not sure if I quite specified why short term movement is combat as opposed to travel or flight speed aside from a brief mention or list of examples. But even in real life, the difference between a short burst movement or long term movement is in many ways similar to the distinction between striking strength and durability. Sometimes, various Olympic runners have actually been shown that an initial jump to get themselves running was a boost above was significantly faster than the average demonstrated velocity throughout the course. Momentum is the number one that separates the short burst movement from long term movement similar to how momentum is the number one thing that separates SS from LS.

I might be behind on what was discussed and unsure if either someone else explained better, or if people were still arguing against separation of short term vs long term. But I do more or less agree with that outline of Antvasima's views.

 

[Agnaa]

It's primarily separated since many characters have travel speeds far higher/lower than their combat speeds, which would otherwise function as anti-feats rather than different modes of speed. I also think it's a bit weird to discern the difference between Ant's proposed form of combat speed, and a travel speed that functions on short distances.

DT wants us to better establish exactly where the separation line is, and I've proposed a few options for that:

I have a few ideas that could work for this:

1. Define it based on a fixed distance. This is the simplest, but runs into its own oddities that I'll explore with the other options.
2. Define it originally from a fixed distance, but scale it to their size. This catches issues of how some characters are so small that they'd never be able to get travel speed, and other characters are so large that they'd automatically get travel speed, under #1.
3. Define it originally from a fixed distance, but scale it to their speed rating, so they'd need to run for a certain amount of "subjective time" to reach it. On top of properly handling the cases caught by #2, this also catches many characters who would otherwise get travel speed incidentally during combat (say, human-sized characters that fight giant monsters while blitzing around them). But this does have the issues of causing characters with infinite and above speed to require very strange circumstances to get travel speed.
4. Define it based on how far they canonically travel during active combat, and treat their speeds as applying up to their own borders. This accounts for pretty much all situations, including characters whose fights go across multiple timelines, but makes those ratings mean different things, even among characters with the same speed. Although, admittedly, #3 would vary between characters with different speeds, and #2 would vary between characters with different sizes, which might already be similarly wonky.

I'm not too interested in selecting one over the other, since they all have noteworthy tradeoffs.

 

[Antvasima]

Ant's views on speed seem to be:

Assuming he holds the same views as me for other speed ratings, that would leave us with:

Thank you very much for your help. That is correct, yes.