Upside Down Man/Great Evil Beast revisions

[Xearsay]

The Upside Down Mans profile is pretty empty and with Justice League Dark(2018) having come to a closure I think his profile could use some changes.

The Otherplace/The Great Darkness/Great Evil Beast relationship

So the Otherkind have essentially been connected to the Great Darkness with the Great Darkness being the Otherplace and the original Darkness during Swamp Thing being an escaped sliver of the Otherkinds power and of the Otherplace.

The Great Darkness is the Otherplace

Nabu stating the Great Darkness awakens in the Sphere surrounding the Dark Multiverse.

What exactly is the Otherplace?

It's essentially a realm surrounding the entire Dark Multiverse from where Hecate would reach into and take magic from to give to the Lords of Order.

The Lords of Order snuck into the darkness and stole magic from the Otherkind. And to prevent anyone from harnessing the raw magic, they wrote the first books of magic.

It formed in the Upside Down Mans image which is why he also serves as the reality of the Otherplace.

Otherplace formed in the Upside Down Mans image.

After Hecate kicked him out of the Multiverse, the Upside Down Man infiltrated and infected the empty void of space with his own reality. Making him the reality of the Otherplace.

Nabu addressing the coming of the Otherkind as the Void of possibility which installed the world with magic coming alive and turning it's gaze upon the world.

The Great Evil Beast/Otherkind relationship

The Darkness that destroyed Zatara during Swamp Thing was only a sliver of the Otherkinds power.

Diana indirectly referring to the Otherkind as the Great Darkness.

Zatanna indirectly referring to The Darkness as the Otherkind.

There's more connections than this but I think this should suffice as the entire storyline is built off the whole Great Darkness event that happened during Swamp Thing.

Upside Down Man Otherkind relationship

The rest of the Otherkind are spawns formed from him.

(1)

(2)

Extra feats for the Upside Down Man

Reality warping

Warps the Otherplace to pieces.

Said to be capable of tearing down the barriers separating the Multiverse and Dark Multiverse. Which should include Hecate's barrier around the Multiverse and The Source Wall as stated earlier in the story by Jason Blood a the tear in creation at The Source Wall has given the Otherkind a way into the Multiverse.

Has reality itself warping around him and his magic draws from The Source.

Is a threat to all of reality.

Deconstruction

Turns Zatanna to dust.

Combat feats

Takes on Dr Fate and a Full Hecate empowered Wonder Woman simultaneously.

(1)

(2)

(3)

Said to be capable of devouring the most powerful magical being in existence. Which is definitely no bluff as one of Upside Down Mans spawn known as the Soup, one shot The First of The Fallen.

Durability

Tanks Swamp Thing bringing the Green down upon him into the Otherplace and breaks free of his restraints.

(2)

Tanks Kent Nelson and Nabu channeling everything they have into a blast so powerful that it would kill Kent in the process.

(1)

(2)

The blast was so powerful that the helmet of fate was badly damaged and Nabu could no longer be heard from within it, nor could his powers be accessed. Proving this was definitely one of Nabu’s most powerful unleashes of power ever.

 

[Eficiente]

The EE is deconstruction.

 

[Xearsay]

The EE is deconstruction.

Ok, I'll change that. Is there anything else you notice though?

 

[MichaelJZero]

Great Post. Considering these stories were written by some who worked on JLA and Metal, they should know that the barrier between multiverses that was spoken of, the one that Upsidedown Man was said to be able to break, was repeatedly cited as the Source Wall. Very interesting relationship dynamic there.

Although, I am still unclear about Dan Watters' Twitter statement on what the Hand was in the Lucifer series and how it was this Great Darkness. Did he imply that Lucifer is just one aspect of the Great Darkness, or that the Great Darkness was an aspect of Lucifer. Either way, I don't understand how Lucifer can have any association with the Dark Multiverse. The question is did Dan understand the question and the reference to the older series GEB? Or, was he generalizing that with Lucifer that he is a great evil beast. Too many questions.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Looks good.

 

[Xearsay]

Great Post. Considering these stories were written by some who worked on JLA and Metal, they should know that the barrier between multiverses that was spoken of, the one that Upsidedown Man was said to be able to break, was repeatedly cited as the Source Wall. Very interesting relationship dynamic there.

Although, I am still unclear about Dan Watters' Twitter statement on what the Hand was in the Lucifer series and how it was this Great Darkness. Did he imply that Lucifer is just one aspect of the Great Darkness, or that the Great Darkness was an aspect of Lucifer. Either way, I don't understand how Lucifer can have any association with the Dark Multiverse. The question is did Dan understand the question and the reference to the older series GEB? Or, was he generalizing that with Lucifer that he is a great evil beast. Too many questions.

Indeed. + there’s a statement about how the tear in the Source Wall gave the Otherkind a way into the Multiverse, so it definitely has to include The Source Wall.

And yeah the Lucifer story is kind of weird because Lucifer being greater than or equal to the GEB is extremely contradictory. However this storyline is much more recent, consistent, and congruent with what happened in Swamp Thing so I think we should just take what’s most consistent and ignore minor contradictory notions like what was presented in Lucifer.

 

[SagaTheLegend]

Indeed. + there’s a statement about how the tear in the Source Wall gave the Otherkind a way into the Multiverse, so it definitely has to include The Source Wall.

And yeah the Lucifer story is kind of weird because Lucifer being greater than or equal to the GEB is extremely contradictory. However this storyline is much more recent, consistent, and congruent with what happened in Swamp Thing so I think we should just take what’s most consistent and ignore minor contradictory notions like what was presented in Lucifer.

The 2018 Lucifer has barely any connections to mainstream DC at all so its a weird case.

If I recall correctly there's also a statement from Tynion stating that the Great Darkness being the same from Swamp Thing was indeed his original intent so I think author statements should be disregarded here since they contradict each other (could be recalling wrong though)

 

[MichaelJZero]

The 2018 Lucifer has barely any connections to mainstream DC at all so its a weird case.

If I recall correctly there's also a statement from Tynion stating that the Great Darkness being the same from Swamp Thing was indeed his original intent so I think author statements should be disregarded here since they contradict each other (could be recalling wrong though)

Had no idea James also talked about this? I thought only Dan here in this statement confirmed that.

 

[Xearsay]

Had no idea James also talked about this? I thought only Dan here in this statement confirmed that.

Same. I went digging through Tynions statements and found this. So it seems both statements do cancel each other out.

 

[MichaelJZero]

Same. I went digging through Tynions statements and found this. So it seems both statements do cancel each other out.

This is the full context that was BLATANTLY missing from so many posts of his prior on this subject.

So his intent was there, but he didn't get that into the comics and DC didn't agree or flesh that out.

 

[Xearsay]

This is the full context that was BLATANTLY missing from so many posts of his prior on this subject.

So his intent was there, but he didn't get that into the comics and DC didn't agree or flesh that out.

Ah I see. That makes sense as he wasn't the only writer to work on the storyline.

 

[SagaTheLegend]

Ah I see. That makes sense as he wasn't the only writer to work on the storyline.

Well that at least confirms the relation the comic already had stated. Don't really think the other writers that worked during the run contradicted it but they didn't really expand upon it either.

 

[Antvasima]

@Zensum @C2_of_Omegon @Qawsedf234 @Sandman31 @SuperAPM @Firestorm808 @EmperorRorepme @LuciferDC099 @Newendigo @Ehnkr2beboh @Tllmbrg @Deagonx

What do you think about this?

 

[MichaelJZero]

Well that at least confirms the relation the comic already had stated. Don't really think the other writers that worked during the run contradicted it but they didn't really expand upon it either.

Agreed. The Otherkind being from a totally separate Multiverse made by a Monitor is quite unreflective of any of the Lucifer story arcs. Even if it were true, which it isn't now that I had to dig and find the rest of the conversation and the truth of it, would we have taken that as Lucifer is an aspect of the Otherkind. Or, that the Otherkind were an aspect of Lucifer. This is why we need to ask direct, non-vague questions if we ever get to talk to the content creators that can be open to reinterpretation.

The Otherkind were problems for Hecate. Eclipso was made by Yahweh to combat Hecate and whittle down her power. We can take that as The Presence is lazy and a jerk, letting someone else fight for him. Or, he literally couldn't fight her without being wiped immediately. And I think the latter is the case.

Either way, I am glad I took a look into the conversation there and found an entirely omitted section of the discussion that was never posted and never saw the light of day anywhere online until today. All that conversation was from March 2020. Almost a full year and nobody knew the author responded and clarified.

 

[Qawsedf234]

I'm unsure what the main point of this thread is. Are you asking for more powers to be added or a Tier 1 change?

 

[Xearsay]

I'm unsure what the main point of this thread is. Are you asking for more powers to be added or a Tier 1 change?

Both. If I recall the Source Wall is 1-A and the Upside Down Man and his spawn were going to tear it down. The Great Evil Beast who is also 1-A was only a sliver of his power and the Otherplace. Which is something he could warp to pieces. So low 1-C doesn’t make sense.

 

[MichaelJZero]

Both. If I recall the Source Wall is 1-A and the Upside Down Man and his spawn were going to tear it down. The Great Evil Beast who is also 1-A was only a sliver of his power. So low 1-C doesn’t make sense.

I agree with this. How can the Presence be 1-A if Hecate is stronger than he is and Upsidedown Man was at least on par with or slightly more powerful than her at 1-C.

Presence needs a bump down, and Hecate needs a bump up.

IMO, the duo of Hecate and Upsidedown Man are both the strongest beings in the Collective Unconscious and should be a tier below the Leviathan of Stories. The Presence should be a tier below them. IMO Leviathan is the entire stack of infinite stories in DC and the Presence is merely one God story in that narrative stack.

Leviathan > Upsidedown Man > Hecate > Presence is how I see it, but I understand if others do not agree.

 

[Xearsay]

I agree with this. How can the Presence be 1-A if Hecate is stronger than he is and Upsidedown Man was at least on par with or slightly more powerful than her at 1-C.

Presence needs a bump down, and Hecate needs a bump up.

IMO, the duo of Hecate and Upsidedown Man are both the strongest beings in the Collective Unconscious and should be a tier below the Leviathan of Stories. The Presence should be a tier below them. IMO Leviathan is the entire stack of infinite stories in DC and the Presence is merely one God story in that narrative stack.

Leviathan > Upsidedown Man > Hecate > Presence is how I see it, but I understand if others do not agree.

If I recall the Leviathan of stories is non canon to main DC. However they both do utilize Jungs Collective Unconscious though. Hecate was the archetype of Motherhood, Creation, birth, death. She was the full symbol of humanities Collective Unconscious. While the Upside Down Man is the dark reflection of everything Hecate represents.

However I don't think the Collective Unconscious has even gotten a tier on here.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, if regular superheroes were able to beat the Upside-Down-Man, we need some serious official in-story evidence to consider him equal or greater than The Great Evil Beast, who was originally conceived as the equivalent dark half of The Presence, and far superior to The Spectre, and was also reimagined as an incarnation of Lucifer in a recent storyline. As usual, the superhero comicbook stories are a complete mess, both in terms of continuity and power-scaling.

 

[Xearsay]

Well, if regular superheroes were able to beat the Upside-Down-Man, we need some serious official in-story evidence to consider him equal or greater than The Great Evil Beast, who was originally conceived as the equivalent dark half of The Presence, and far superior to The Spectre, and was also reimagined as an incarnation of Lucifer in a recent storyline. As usual, the superhero comicbook stories are a complete mess, both in terms of continuity and power-scaling.

Ok well this is just wrong.

1. Wonder Woman was amped with Hecates full power. (Keep in mind that Hecate is literally the equal to the Upside Down Man).

2. Dr fate is not a regular superhero and was depicted as being capable of destroying the Sphere of Gods during this storyline. He was also shown to be capable of holding Eclipso rather easily. And keep in mind this is also backed by Eclipso himself that if Nabu was there this would all be easy.

3. Zatanna is not a regular superhero and she was also amped by the Otherplace.

4. Swamp Thing is not a regular superhero either and he was literally carrying the Green with him into the Otherplace to weaken the Upside Down Man.

 

[MichaelJZero]

Well, if regular superheroes were able to beat the Upside-Down-Man, we need some serious official in-story evidence to consider him equal or greater than The Great Evil Beast, who was originally conceived as the equivalent dark half of The Presence, and far superior to The Spectre, and was also reimagined as an incarnation of Lucifer in a recent storyline. As usual, the superhero comicbook stories are a complete mess, both in terms of continuity and power-scaling.

We cant objectively say much about the GEB, I don't think the Data exists for what it even is now after seeing the actual conversation on that Twitter statement. At least we debunked that the answer is unknown at the very least, instead of a yes.


As for The upsidedown man, he was greatly weakened by Swampthing's access to the Green. And even then, he came right back. The same tactics were used against Pralaya, and she had literally no say so when the Tree of Knowledge appeared from the Green and laid the smackdown on her.

As with most "things" in general,even very strong ones, they all have weaknesses and their strength should not be correlated to things that are naturally weaker, but also the things that are naturally the weakness for the stronger entity.

Swampthing is always at the forefront of cosmic matters, so far he has taken down Pralaya and also The Upsidedown Man, however, the latter came right back and pummeled him too after the fact.

so basically what happened here with Upsiddown Man is that Swampsthings Green power seemed to have a serious effect on him, which was enough to momentarily allow Zatanna to gain some access to Upsidedownman and get a grip on how his magic works. She found that there is a rule about Magic having a cost and that the Upsidedown Man simply didn't believe it, so she was able to implant and suggest subconsciously to him that there was a cost.

And then the next time he used his powers, she was able to take advantage of that cost because he started to believe it, and in the collective unconscious, I guess that is how things work, where you believe it, it's true.

So he gets sealed away and shredded by Hecates magic via Wonder Woman, which right there is proof that Hecates power alone wasn't enough to stop him. She needed a breech in his mind and as soon as they got one, that power was able to finish him.

But Swamp thing has done this now three times. He invaded Retcon Corps, outside of the comic, his green took down Pralaya's Plan and now also he has been responsible for invoking the Green again to temporarily gain access to Upsidedown Man in the Collective unconscious. There are no lowly feats and IMO they rank among the best feats in DC history.

Whatever the Green is, it's power doesn't stop at the Multiverses edge, or the collective unconscious, it can flow even into the Oversphere.

Sorry for long post, just wanted to clarify for anyone interested in knowing JL Dark 27/28's ending story.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, whatever the case may be, there at currently at least 3 conflicting versions of what TGEB truly is, and scaling between different writer interpretations would create ridiculously exaggerated statistics due to that we currently rate The Presence as High 1-A. That is completely unacceptable. Period. Especially considering that the connection with The Upside-Down Man is unofficial.

As such, for the sake of reliability, we have to scale The Upside-Down Man and Hecate from their actual personal feats from the storylines that they appeared within.

 

[Xearsay]

Well, whatever the case may be, there at currently at least 3 conflicting versions of what TGEB truly is, and scaling between different writer interpretations would create ridiculously exaggerated statistics due to that we currently rate The Presence as High 1-A. That is completely unacceptable. Period. Especially considering that the connection with The Upside-Down Man is unofficial.

As such, for the sake of reliability, we have to scale The Upside-Down Man and Hecate from their actual personal feats from the storylines that they appeared within.

I’m not going to get to deeply into this because this story doesn’t misinterpret anything about the GEB since it’s origin was largely unknown. Neither does your statement that their relationship is “unofficial” mean anything as it’s literally written in the story, which means it’s canon. However even going by their feats, the Source Wall was put at 1-A on here so being capable of tearing that down should upgrade them regardless.

 

[Antvasima]

Please concisely elaborate regarding how The Upside-Down Man was established to be the source of TGEB within the story itself, along with the feats that place TUDM and Hecate at tier 1-A.

That said, I find the original version considerably more reliable, i.e. that TGEB is the dark half of The Presence.

 

[Qawsedf234]

That said, I find the original version considerably more reliable, i.e. that TGEB is the dark half of The Presence.

Personally I wouldn't go that far. Comics are in a constant state of overhauls and in-universe cosmic retcons. The original story being contradicted probably means we should rely on the newer version unless it's some extremely contradictory in-universe.

 

[Antvasima]

@Zensum @C2_of_Omegon @Qawsedf234 @Sandman31 @SuperAPM @Firestorm808 @EmperorRorepme @LuciferDC099 @Newendigo @Ehnkr2beboh @Tllmbrg @Deagonx

I would still appreciate your input here.

 

[MichaelJZero]

Well, whatever the case may be, there at currently at least 3 conflicting versions of what TGEB truly is, and scaling between different writer interpretations would create ridiculously exaggerated statistics due to that we currently rate The Presence as High 1-A. That is completely unacceptable. Period. Especially considering that the connection with The Upside-Down Man is unofficial.

As such, for the sake of reliability, we have to scale The Upside-Down Man and Hecate from their actual personal feats from the storylines that they appeared within.

I am with you on that. Death Metal's retconning of the Source = the Presence in the finale issue was a shocker. I am not sure people even agree anymore or know what to feel over it. The Chronicler was sent from the Source and is protected by the Source, and the Source was clearly cited as the Overvoid in the last issue.

However, Wally West claimed the Source and the power of the Presence were the same. That is a massive conflict. I made a big post about this source = the Presence on Quora and showed just how many different writers and authors and canon series have said the Presence is not the Source. So who is a more knowledgeable being? Is it Wally West or the Narrator and Chronicler? Of course, it's the comic narrator and the Chronicler who said the Overvoid is the Source, not the Presence.

If The Presence is really the God of the DC Multiverse, why does he state that he was shaped by "external forces" and who are the forces ...

Answer (1 of 5): the presence is the god that did created dc. when he said i was shaped by a external force, he was talking about the dreaming. the dreaming is divided up between several different realm who all are ruled each member of the family called the endless. time the representation of t...

www.quora.com

I am not going to copy and paste that huge wall here, nor will I make any motions to change any ratings on characters. Just providing my viewpoint here so others can understand.

If we are scaling Hecate and Upsidedown Man, we should base this on the forging of Eclipso and his original context of being the thing that was specifically made to chip away at Hecates power.

As well as Dr. Fate saying Hecate is the Alpha

And both WW and Constantine confirming Hecate is the strongest God to ever walk the Earth.


And this gets worse because as I mentioned, it was the Fuginauts who kept the Dark Multiverse and everything in it from breaching the Source Wall and getting into the positive multiverse. Hecate and Upsidedown Man couldn't get in, because the Fuginauts prevented it.

And just for giggles, here is depowered Mandrakk shredding their most powerful guy

 

[Qawsedf234]

1-A seems fine, though before any updates I'd like to see the new AP justification written out

 

[Antvasima]

Personally I wouldn't go that far. Comics are in a constant state of overhauls and in-universe cosmic retcons. The original story being contradicted probably means we should rely on the newer version unless it's some extremely contradictory in-universe.

Well, the problem is that we currently consider The Presence, The Source, and The Overvoid to be equal representations of the same transdual entity that is the by far supreme entity of the DCU, and TGEB was shown to be equal to The Presence. As such, it would not make any sense to scale Hecate and The Upside-Down Man to it.

 

[Antvasima]

Anyway, the DC continuity is a big contradictory mess, so I would still appreciate help with at least attempting to straighten it out somewhat from the people that I called earlier.

@Matthew_Schroeder @Ultima_Reality @Sera_EX

Your help would be appreciated here as well.

 

[MichaelJZero]

Well, the problem is that we currently consider The Presence, The Source, and The Overvoid to be equal representations of the same transdual entity that is the by far supreme entity of the DCU, and TGEB was shown to be equal to The Presence. As such, it would not make any sense to scale Hecate and The Upside-Down Man to it.

Here are my thoughts on this, a copy from my post elsewhere. This will be the last I speak of this, I don't want to be inflammatory, this topic specifically on the Presence always goes there so I'll back out after I provide my incite on this ahha

The Presence is “a” God of DC.

Not “THE” God of DC. His shaped by external forces is a reference to the power of belief. Here, Metron and The Chronicler have a discussion on how this works. This is from Death Metal.

This is an older Kirby concept, here is a visual guide provided by DC back in the Kirby Era comics. This is from older 80s DC Kirby Era.

This is the same exact reference in Vertigo between The Presence and Lucifer. This is from Vertigo Lucifer.

The Presence is shaped by his own creations, the mortal realms and even other deities believing him to be the way he is. The more that believe in him, the stronger he is believed to be, the stronger he actually becomes.

The external forces are mortals and anyone who believes in him. The Presence is not the Source, the Overvoid is. The Real God is Monitor Mind.

Monitors call the Source a Monitor. This is from Countdown to Infinite Crisis.

Lucifer never met the Source. This is from Vertigo Lucifer.

The Spectre never met the Source. This is from Countdown to Infinite Crisis.

Chronicler says the Source is Monitor Mind. This is from the latest Death Metal, near the finale issues. Wally West is not a better source of information than the narrator or the Chronicler.

Authors say the real God is Monitor Mind, not the Presence. This is a 2008 interview with Grant Morrison about Final Crisis and the events of Superman Beyond.

Final Crisis shows us that God in the Multiverse here is Yahweh and his army is the Pax Dei. This is not the army of the Overvoid. It is the army of Yahweh, the context for God in this Multiverse is Yahweh The Presence. The True God is Monitor Mind outside of the Source Wall.

This is from Final Crisis Issue 7.

There are more than a dozen references alone in DC History that show the Presence has nothing to do with The Source and is not the True God of all things. He is just the most powerful deity in DC’s Multiverse and that gives him the title of DC’s God.

As you can see, nearly every single canon in DC Comics, including Vertigo, said the Source is not the Presence. One canon story from the Wonder Woman series, where Kronus attacked heaven, implied that the Source is the Presence. And it was not mentioned ever again until Death Metal Issue 4 I believe, in 2020. And that was quickly retconned and fixed, explained to the Overvoid, not the Presence.

the Overvoid had no clue what the Flaw was, or anything else. Made Mandrakk to go investigate it, then left entirely. And we had Morrison tell us that Overvoid was running through its own story as the Monitors to learn more.

At no point in DC History has the Presence had the same story or origin as the Overvoid. They are totally separate entities, and there is a 9:1 ratio of authors and comic series citing that The Source is NOT the Presence.

Overvoid had no interaction with anything prior.

The Presence knows exactly what the Multiverse was, made it in some canons, had dealings with everything and everyone else, yet in 3 extremely prominent DC comics, the Source was directly said to be unknown to Lucifer, The Spectre and that Monitors call the Source Monitor Prime.

Highfather does not pray to the same being the Angels of the Pax Dei and Silver city pray to. Highfather has never met the source, but he knows all about the angels and can go to their location any time he wants to visit the Source that he considers a mystery? No, that does not fit with anything Jack Kirby wrote.

The Presence is not the Source. The vast majority of DC authors have said so and many alluded directly to the Presence Yahweh not having a lick to do with The Source. Totally separate.

anyway, thanks for reading

 

[Newendigo]

The best I can say is that the arguments for the upgrade seem solid, and that the whole "DC continuity is a mess" is getting really old, the normal heroes that fought this guy were either obviously amped or are more stronger than we are giving them credit for...

Also, I'm a earthy realm guy, and I have barely kept up with DC, so please don't expect me to say a lot once I'm mentioned in those super cluster threads...

 

[Xearsay]

Please concisely elaborate regarding how The Upside-Down Man was established to be the source of TGEB within the story itself, along with the feats that place TUDM and Hecate at tier 1-A.

The original Darkness we saw during Swamp Thing was essentially only a piece of the Otherplace and the Otherkinds power that escaped.

"The most powerful magicians in history had called it many names. It was the Abyss. The Darkworld. The Great Darkness. In hushed whispers they spoke of the source of human magic. The Otherplace. John Constantine had felt it's power before, when a piece of the Darkness broke free and nearly burned heaven to the ground."

"The Darkness that destroyed me was only a sliver of their power. It will infect the Earth with horror and burn out all living things."

So The Darkness we saw during Swamp Thing was not full thing. It was only a fraction of the Otherkinds power that broke free from the Otherplace.

That said, I find the original version considerably more reliable, i.e. that TGEB is the dark half of The Presence.

This isn't a change though because we never truly knew where the GEB came from. This would just be establishing a proper origin for the character.

 

[Xearsay]

1-A seems fine, though before any updates I'd like to see the new AP justification written out

You want me to write it or someone else?

Upside Down Man: "Stated to be capable of tearing down the barriers put up between the Dark Multiverse and the Multiverse."

Hecate: "Her equal and opposite was stated to be capable of tearing down the barriers between the Multiverse and the Dark Multiverse."

Would this suffice?

 

[Deagonx]

@Antvasima Thankfully, I've pretty thoroughly debunked this in the past. He is directly equal to Hecate, who is rated at Low 1-C. Further, nothing in the post addresses Upside Down Man's rating of 1-C or why it would be inaccurate, or why 1-A is appropriate given the evidence. The "yeas" in the thread

The Great Darkness is the Otherplace

This has since been retconned by Lucifer, which stated that the Great Darkness was an aspect of Lucifer akin to the snake in the garden.

It formed in the Upside Down Mans image which is why he also serves as the reality of the Otherplace.

Otherplace formed in the Upside Down Mans image.

To be clear, the Upside Down Man infected the Otherplace with his being which is why it formed/shaped into his image. He is to the Otherplace what Hecate was to the Sphere, it's first inhabitant. He stated this clearly, "But long since Hecate imprisoned me here (the Other Place), I infiltrated and infected this empty void of space). I am the reality of this Other Place."

There's more connections than this but I think this should suffice as the entire storyline is built off the whole Great Darkness event that happened during Swamp Thing.

That was Tynion's original intent, but this was retconned by Lucifer.

Said to be capable of tearing down the barriers separating the Multiverse and Dark Multiverse. Which should include Hecate's barrier around the Multiverse

I mean, he's equal and opposite of Hecate. She's the one who made the barrier.

they should know that the barrier between multiverses that was spoken of, the one that Upsidedown Man was said to be able to break, was repeatedly cited as the Source Wall.

This is quite far from the truth. The Source Wall doesn't separate the Multiverse and the Dark Multiverse, as proven by the fact that the Source Wall encompasses the Sphere of the Gods, but the Sphere was connected directly to the Other Place before Hecate created a barrier, which means the Source Wall is around both.

This is further proven by the fact that following the first Dark Multiverse storyline, it was said that "even greater mysteries" lay beyond the Source Wall.

The Otherkind being from a totally separate Multiverse made by a Monitor

The Dark Multiverse was not created by a Monitor.

Eclipso was made by Yahweh to combat Hecate and whittle down her power. We can take that as The Presence is lazy and a jerk, letting someone else fight for him. Or, he literally couldn't fight her without being wiped immediately. And I think the latter is the case.

If you are capable of creating a servant equal to Hecate, then you are far more powerful than Hecate. It makes no sense that he would be wiped out by a being, yet he is strong enough to create a servant to defeat her.

How can the Presence be 1-A if Hecate is stronger than he is

Hecate isn't stronger than the Presence. Hecate is the embodiment of the Collective Unconscious, which is one of the Connective Energies that the Presence grants to Super Celestials to create multiverses. In other words, the Presence literally spawned the Connective power which Hecate is born from.

Death Metal's retconning of the Source = the Presence in the finale issue was a shocker

Death Metal did not ever retcon this.

I am not sure people even agree anymore or know what to feel over it. The Chronicler was sent from the Source and is protected by the Source, and the Source was clearly cited as the Overvoid in the last issue.

None of this retcons Source = Presence and your scan does not cite the Source as the Overvoid. Why are you misrepresenting your evidence?

it was the Fuginauts who kept the Dark Multiverse and everything in it from breaching the Source Wall

Again, you are deeply editorializing your scans and falsely representing what they say. The Source Wall is not implicated at all in those scans.

The Presence is “a” God of DC.

Not “THE” God of DC.

Au contraire. Batman refers to him as "the Capital G God"

Monitors call the Source a Monitor. This is from Countdown to Infinite Crisis.

Your scan does not refer to the Source as a Monitor. You are editorializing your scans, yet again.

Lucifer never met the Source. This is from Vertigo Lucifer.

Elaine narrated that in that specific trip to the void outside the Source Wall, that he "ignored" the Source. There is no evidence that he never met the Source.

Chronicler says the Source is Monitor Mind. This is from the latest Death Metal, near the finale issues. Wally West is not a better source of information than the narrator or the Chronicler.

Your scan does not say that at all. You are editorializing your evidence.

Authors say the real God is Monitor Mind, not the Presence.

"God or the Source" refers to the Presence and the Source. The Presence is "God."

 

[Xearsay]

Lucifer was a less current storyline than JLD. So Lucifer cannot retcon JLD as it's a more current storyline. I don't get the point of the rest of your post directed towards me as I already clarified the rest of that information. So it seems you haven't "debunked" anything.

JLD ended in Nov 24th 2020.

Lucifer ended Feb 19th 2020.

 

[Deagonx]

Lucifer was a less current storyline than JLD. So Lucifer cannot retcon JLD as it's a more current storyline.

JLD ended in Nov 24th 2020.

Lucifer ended Feb 19th 2020.

This is wrong, Lucifer ended January 27, 2021

Glad we've settled this.

 

[Xearsay]

I'm talking about Lucifer vol 3 which is where the statements appear in. Not Lucifer vol 4 lol. Lucifer Vol 3 did not end in January 2021. It ended in February 2020. If you want to play by those rules JLD is literally continuing in future state soooo you're still utilizing a less current storyline.

 

[Deagonx]

I'm talking about Lucifer vol 3 which is where the statements appear in. Not Lucifer vol 4 lol

You're conflating two different usages of the word "Volume." Lucifer (2018) is "vol. 3" because it's the third Lucifer, from Lucifer (2000) by Carey, Lucifer (2016) by Black and Lucifer (2018) by Watters.

The "vol. 4" in the book's name is the 4th collection of issues from Lucifer (2018). Every 6 issues or so was collected into a volume. The GEB retcon wasn't in Vol. 3 either way.

If you want to play by those rules JLD is literally continuing in future state soooo you're still utilizing a less current storyline.

If I want to play by those rules? You are the one that brought up when the stories ended and used that to try and deny the retcon. You're backpedaling now that it's been proven that Lucifer is more recent.

 

[Xearsay]

You're conflating two different usages of the word "Volume." Lucifer (2018) is "vol. 3" because it's the third Lucifer, from Lucifer (2000) by Carey, Lucifer (2016) by Black and Lucifer (2018) by Watters.

Ok... What's your point. It's still Lucifer vol 3 that I'm talking about and not Lucifer vol 4.

If I want to play by those rules? You are the one that brought up when the stories ended and used that to try and deny the retcon. You're backpedaling now that it's been proven that Lucifer is more recent.

No one's backpedalling. Lucifer volume 3 ended in february 2020 and you're trying to use vol 4 to replace volume 3's end date. So in response I'm going to use JLD's continuation date which is February 9th 2021. So you lose.