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Upgrading Spider-Man and Iron Fist

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Matthew_Schroeder

Matthew_Schroeder

VS Battles
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Spider-Man is rated at High 8-C in our wiki, and Iron Fist as "At least High 8-C". This is completely innacurate.

Spider-Man has performed this feat:

http://www.narutoforums.com/xfa-blog-entry/spider-man-feat-spider-man-saves-the-hulk.22488/

Whose realistic Mid-End is 1.271 kilotons.

And he has survived a nuke, albeit it nearly killed him:

https://forums.hero-academia.com/xfa-blog-entry/spidey-tanks-a-nuke-calc.33958/

166.8828361 kilotons

As for Iron Fist:

His Iron Fist is compared to a Hydrogen Bomb

He deflects and tanks a speeding train filled with explosives to "Make Hiroshima look like a sparkler", and which would destroy all of Kun-Lu

He's tanked attacks from Radio , and punched through his armor. Radion's power was measured up in hundreds of megatons .

His speed is also lowballed. He can react and move in a micro-second. Assuming he moved 1 meter in 1 microsecond:

1 meter / 1.0e-6 seconds = 1000000 m/s. Or Mach 2915.4519

Spider-Man and characters who scale need to be changed to Town level, and Iron Fist to City level.
 
I'm uncertain regarding Spider-Man, though it's possible and I'm not necessarily against it. I'd like to see what others think.

City level Iron Fist seems fine.
 
Not really sure what's going on in the first one. Math for the realistic end looks good (if lowballed), but I'm going to need the context.

Second one was mostly disproven by Chaos Theory in the comments. If it's an actual Nuke, and if he was at the epicenter of it, then I suppose Town level is fine.

Not sure why stopping a train filled with bombs would count as a Town/City level feat.

Radion could be referring to Megatons of force and not Tons, but I dunno. Could be legit, I'll see what others think. Not sure if Force can be converted into Tons, but I recall someone saying that a Megaton of Force is roughly in the Kiloton of TNT range, so if that's true, he'd be at least Large Town.

Speed seems okay from a glance.
 
He seems to have destroyed the train and contained the explosion.
 
@Dark

The Iron Fist Train explosion was calced at 2.4 megatons.

And it is Megatons of TNT, as Radion was going to blow up all of London, and Iron Fist contained his power.

Regardless, Spider-Man isn't that far behind Iron Fist.
 
@Dark

Radion talking about Megatons of force wouldn't make sense, as he is comparing himself to a hydrogen bomb and was going to perform destructive feats of this level. It's like he's saying "I'm a ridiculously powerful bomb", which makes a lot more sense than "I am a bomb but I really suck".

Anyway, I think these upgrades look pretty good. This would scale to all characters canonically of their level, yes?
 
Though quick question, wouldn't Iron Fist actually be 7-A? 100 Megatons is the absolute peak of City level, and Radion used the term "hundreds", which would fall under Large City/Mountain level.
 
They look alright to me if others, including staff, don't mind it.

Funny thing is that if and/or when this passes, that just puts Carnage back at Tier 7. Just much lower than before. ^^;
 
Upgrading Spider-Man and Iron Fist, characters who have hundreds of appearances in various issues to town and city level. Based on only five calculations doesn't sit right with me at all, I think we're getting a bit too hasty; I'd prefer if we could actually thoroughly investigate these characters instead of just choosing a handful of feats and going with that.
 
Austrian-Man-Meat said:
Upgrading Spider-Man and Iron Fist, characters who have hundreds of appearances in various issues to town and city level. Based on only five calculations doesn't sit right with me at all, I think we're getting a bit too hasty; I'd prefer if we could actually thoroughly investigate these characters instead of just choosing a handful of feats and going with that.
Click to expand...
We are not being hasty at all. We upgrade virtually every character in fiction from a handful of feats. If there was only one feat, it'd be an outlier, but there 5 to 6 or so. It's pretty acceptable.

Goku only has 1 Universal-ish feat, and all the other 70+ episoes of Dragon Ball Super portray him as less than Universal. By that same argument, he'd be downgraded.
 
Agreeing with AMM, as Spider Man and the Iron Fist have multiple feats that would contradict what is being proposed as an upgrade, although that Microsecond reaction speed for Iron Fist sounds okay.

Perhaps someone should compile all the Iron Fist and Spider Man feats to see if any of them would contradict the feats listed above?
 
"as Spider Man and the Iron Fist have multiple feats that would contradict what is being proposed as an upgrade"

And so does practically everything else in fiction. What else is new?
 
You wanna play by quantity of feats? Okay, let's do it with Goku then.

  • Obligatory: Goku getting hurt by bullets
  • Obligatory 2: Goku getting pierced by laser
  • One: Krillin getting hurt by bullets
  • Two: Goku dying to Freeza's Planetary Explosion
  • Three: Goku Black taking 1 year to wipe out all life on Earth.
  • Four: Vegeta getting hurt by magma
  • Five: Goku needing protection to enter Earth's core
  • Six: Vegito Vs Merged Zamasu only destroying City Blocks
  • Seven: Mai's missiles hurting Goku Black
  • Eight: Mai hitting Goku Black with a gun
  • Nine: Trunks killing Zamasu with the power of a barren, lifeless Earth
  • Ten: Vegeta struggling to lift 1,000 tons, even in Super Saiyan
  • Eleven: Whis saying he can't stop an attack that could destroy the universe
  • Twelve: Goku and Beerus' "universe busting" didn't destroy the Earth. Furthermore, the shockwave got stronger the further away it went, which is physically impossible
  • Thirteen: Beyond even that, when at its maximum distance in the Otherworld and the Kaioshin Realm, nothing was being destroyed
  • Fourteen: Beerus and Champa's 100% fight in the manga only destroyed planets
  • Fifteen: Goku SSJ2 Vs Trunks SSJ2 would have only destroyed the Earth
  • Sixteen: Goku fought evenly with a Fat Buu who slacked for all those years
  • Seventeen: Beerus states that Base Goku at BoG is weaker than Freeza
See? We can do this type of cherrypicking quantity over quality shit with anything in fiction, but noo, only comicbook characters get this level of scrutiny here.
 
Lina Shields said:
You would need screenshots for all the claims that you listed I'm afraid.
Click to expand...
All of them are things that have indeed happened in either the DBS Anime or Manga, I can assure you.

I listed them all here to show that there is a clear bias when it comes to comicbooks.

Edit: Unless you mean my original post, which in that case, wtf.
 
I am referring to

Matthew Schroeder said:
You wanna play by quantity of feats? Okay, let's do it with Goku then.
Click to expand...
this post above. However, hasn't Spider Man consistently been hurt by characters of lower AP in comparison to his calc that we are scaling from?

Since that the second calc regarding Spider Man has been rejected, and the calc that I linked has Spider Man's KE at

Spider Man
1.271 kilotons. Barely Small Town level.
 
About Spider-Man:

Not sure if that's really a feat for Spidey? The calc argues he must've pushed Hulk out of the way before the other ball hit Hulk, but Hulk was already holding the ball at bay. Spidey had to move quick before Hulk's strength failed, but he did not actually have to save him from anything.

As for the microsecond stuff, I'd like it if we could get more WoG on this, but the only two Marvel writers I know to have commented on it have both said that the word microsecond is used as hyperbole.

The first and third Iron Fist feats are fine, but stopping a train filled with explosives doesn't make you scale to the explosives any more than lifting a box of grenades makes you Room level.
 
@Xcano

It's a feat for Spider-Man because the bomb was travelling faster than escape velocity, and Spidey correctly calced that the second would hit Hulk and they needed to get out of the way. So Spider-Man hurled himself at speeds comparable to the bomb to push Hulk out of the way.

AKA, Spidey pushed his own mass + The Hulk's at faster than escape velocity speeds. Resulting in the KE seem there.

The Nuke feat is self explanatory.

Couldn't give a shit about what the writer has to say. Yes, they say "Microsecond" because it sounds cool and impressive, but in-narrative it means that a microsecond did indeed pass.

Odd that you are using this argument when you yourself agrees that a "Microsecond" statement means that the timeframe is a Microsecond in the past:

https://www.reddit.com/r/whowouldwi..._anime_character_can_exactly_510_616/d8r447t/

The Kun-Lun feat is important because he nullified the bombs. They exploded and he contained it. It was calced at 2.4 Megatons at Narutoforums, but I can't find the blog.

So we have:

  • Spidey's KE feat.
  • Spidey barely surviving a nuclear missile. Calc is valid, it is indeed a nuclear missile and not a wave.
  • Spidey comparing Morbius' punch to an H-Bomb
  • Iron Fist's fist being compared to an H-Bomb
  • Iron Fist' train feat, calced at 2.4 Megatons
  • Iron Fist beating a guy whose power output is hundreds of Megatons
  • Luke Cage barely surviving a nuclear explosion
  • Ghost Rider blowing up a random mountain
  • Ghost Rider blowing up a Himalayan Mountain.
I am arguing for Town level (Or Small Town level) Spider-Man and City Level Iron Fist.
 
@Matt

Before I even address your points:

Why in the world did you go through 6 months of my reddit account? That's really creepy?

As for the rest:

Spidey states on the page that Hulk broke the bond attracting the two balls, and he then says he gets him out of the way before the other one starts moving again.

Even if he didn't, it's irrelevant. Hulk had his other hand on the ball, so the amount of time Spidey had to get Hulk out of the way is equal to how long Hulk had until his strength wore out.
 
"Why in the world did you go through 6 months of my reddit account? That's really creepy?"

I didn't. I googled "Marvel Microsecond" and that Reddit thread was one of the first things that showed up.

And no it isn't.

http://imgur.com/lZELnKN

First panel: Spidey taunts Hulk to punch the ball.

Second panel: Hulk punches it. Narration states "The hulk's blow breaks the inertial force of the globe -- sending it hurtling far faster and harder than even his great strength alone could have."

Third panel: Spidey pushes Hulk out of the way. He states "I've got to get The Hulk out of the way of its twin"

Fourth panel: "But at least I moved him -- And just in time, too. There goes the second sphere, hot on the tail of the first."

Spider-Man moved Hulk out of the way BEFORE the second ball went speeding up as well, due to the attractive force between it and its twin. As we can see in the Second panel, the bomb was mere meters away from the Hulk and Spidey was fast enough to push him out of the way in the nick of time.

The bombs were at least thrown fast enough to break the Earth's Escape Velocity. Thus, this is a KE Pushing feat for Spidey.

And yes, Hulk was holding the second ball on the first panel, but that has nothing to do with what's shown on panel. Panel states that Spidey had to take Hulk out of the way or else he'd be hit by the speeding bomb.
 
Here, proof that I didn't read through 6 months of your reddit posts, I have better things to do:

One.

Two.

By chance I decided to check the link it led me to and I found your comment.
 
"And yes, Hulk was holding the second ball on the first panel, but that has nothing to do with what's shown on panel. Panel states that Spidey had to take Hulk out of the way or else he'd be hit by the speeding bomb."

Yeah. Think of it like holding a train back, but you're struggling with it. The train will break through your strength eventually, and then it will hit you. That's what's happening here, not that Hulk was going to be instantly hit at 11 km/s.

There's also the whole deal of acceleration, in that in order for Spidey to need to move so fast we'd have to say:

  • Hulk isn't holding back the force of that ball any noticeable amount
  • The statement of Hulk breaking the intertial force between the two means nothing
  • The ball can accelerate from 0 to 11 km/s in about a meter distance instead of gradually speeding up to meet the partner ball
 
"That's what's happening here, not that Hulk was going to be instantly hit at 11 km/s."

No. That's not at all what's being implied nor stated by the narrative. If it was such a simple thing that doesn't require such speed, there would be no need for such a rapid solution from Spidey.

"Hulk isn't holding back the force of that ball any noticeable amount"

Evidently, he isn't. If he was Spidey wouldn't reiterate how he rescued him in the nick of time.

"The statement of Hulk breaking the intertial force between the two means nothing"

I don't see how it is relevant to this discussion. The following panel clearly shows the ball speeding up much like the first one.

"The ball can accelerate from 0 to 11 km/s in about a meter distance instead of gradually speeding up to meet the partner ball"

Was acceleration shown when the first ball was punched? Was such a thing emphasized in the panels? They weren't. Hulk punches the ball and there it goes at a speed needed to break escape velocity. The second ball does the same.

Spidey rescued Hulk in the nick of time from a bomb moving at at least escape velocity. There is no other way around it.
 
Spidey comparing Morbius' punch to an H-Bomb

You would need screenshots for this statement.

Anyways, going to inspect this screenshot here.

Spider Man Budge
  • At image 1, we see the Hulk here trying to keep the two globes from colliding with each other [which are matter and anti-matter bombs respectively]
  • At image 2, we see that Hulk literally punches the bomb away with his fist, and it states in that panel "faster and harder than even his great strength alone could have", meaning Hulk used his full power to actually cancel out the attractive force between the two bombs.
  • At image 3, Spider Man tackles the Hulk.
  • At image 4, We see in the panel where Spider Man moves the Hulk out of the bomb's way, which could be a kinetic energy feat from Spider Man, but the issue here is that when Spider Man tackled the Hulk, the Hulk seemed to be visibly affected by it.
Basically, Spider Man tackled the Hulk hard enough that the Hulk was visibly affected by it, thus this would be an outlier for Spider Man here for being able to affect someone like the Hulk with a physical move.

Now let's go over the Nuke feat in question, here

As ChaosTheory stated in the comments below, that is a wave in the ocean, and not an actual mountain. This would make Spider Man's feat here completely invalid, as the size of the explosion would have decreased tremendously compared to said explosion actually happening on a mountain.

Screenshots for said explosion not occuring on a Mountain:

Wave 1
Missile headed to ocea
Wave 22
Missile explodes
 
@Lina

Did you read my posts? Serious question, because I've shown all the screenshots.

is Morbius' punch statement

Matthew Schroeder said:
Also, I read the Spider-Man Nuke issue. It is indeed a Nuclear Missile.
Spidey states that it is a Scud Missile, and that if detonated it'd wipe out everyone for miles . Seeing as Scud Missiles typically carry 5 to 80 Kiloton thermonuclear weapons, this makes sense.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scud
Click to expand...
And as I proven, that is a Nuclear Missile. ChaosTheory was wrong. Yes, it is in the ocean and not in a mountain, but it is still a nuclear missile (5 to 80 kilotons most likely) and Spidey was right next to it when it detonated.

"At image 2, we see that Hulk literally punches the bomb away with his fist, and it states in that panel "faster and harder than even his great strength alone could have", meaning Hulk used his full power to actually cancel out the attractive force between the two bombs."

At what point is that implied? That happened because The Hulk broke the inertial force between the bombs. Also this Hulk is not angry and mad, but rather casual, and it is important to know that the Hulk's power varies from story to story for a variety of reason.

" We see in the panel where Spider Man moves the Hulk out of the bomb's way, which could be a kinetic energy feat from Spider Man, but the issue here is that when Spider Man tackled the Hulk, the Hulk seemed to be visibly affected by it.

Basically, Spider Man tackled the Hulk hard enough that the Hulk was visibly affected by it, thus this would be an outlier for Spider Man here for being able to affect someone like the Hulk with a physical move."

There are several problems with this logic. First:

"but the issue here is that when Spider Man tackled the Hulk, the Hulk seemed to be visibly affected by it."

How is this an issue? The Hulk is still a being with mass that can be affected by basic physics like Newton's Laws of Motion. Hulk was visibly surprised when Spidey pushed him, meaning that the Hulk wasn't even paying attention to him.

"thus this would be an outlier for Spider Man here for being able to affect someone like the Hulk with a physical move"

It's not an outlier if he didn't hurt Hulk in the slightest, just pushed him of his balance.
 
Well, Iron Fist making vague claims of his fist being like a hydrogen bomb should not be taken any more seriously than that he compared it to a star in the same scans.

In addition, he only managed to stop a train carrying the explosives. The explosion that he triggered was explicitly shown as extremely small, and would have to be calculated in itself.

Spider-Man tanking part of a nuclear explosion should probably be seen as an outlier, given that he is consistently shown as not being bulletproof.

Moving the Hulk at these speeds also seems outlier-ish, but I am more uncertain about this part.
 
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