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Upgrade for Sasha necron - Maou Gakuin

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Vietthai96 said:
where?????
Click to expand...
「石垣積んでは城をなし、因果重ねて長城をなす。城は因果ぞ、因果は城ぞ。余さず重ねて世界とし、そびえ立つは王虎の巣」
"Stonewalling makes a castle, and causality makes a great wall. A castle is cause and effect, and cause and effect is a castle. A castle is cause and effect, and cause and effect is a castle; pile them all up, and they make a world; towering above is the nest of the king and tiger.
.
.
.
「この世界は妾の城。積み重ねられた石垣は、世界の因果ぞ。わかるかのう？　バランディアスの因果を、妾は支配しているのじゃ。城を積むも崩すも妾の意のまま、すなわち、原因を切り崩し、結果だけを手にすることができるということよなぁ」
This world is my mistress' castle. "This world is my castle, and the stone walls are the cause and effect of the world. Do you understand?　　She controls the cause and effect of all of Barandias. She can build up or tear down the castle as she pleases, which means she can cut down the causes and take only the results.

WN CHAPTER 514
Click to expand...
 
imZer0Null said:
Your scans are indeed bad.
It is not my responsibility to provide scans with accurate translations for your CRT.
Click to expand...
That your responsibility because you says my scan and the translate is bad

Provide proof of your argument. Prove that the scan and translation I gave is wrong
imZer0Null said:
From what I've read in other threads, that's just NPI without further context.

If Sasha is unable to MANIPULATE causality however she wants, including destroying it, then she doesn't qualify for causality MANIPULATION.
Yes, destruction of causality could probably qualify for causality manip with further context, but you have no evidence that Sasha can destroy actual causality in a way that would qualify for causality manip (destruction). Your current evidence only shows that Sasha can destroy an abstract existence that embodies causality with her existence erasure and law and concept manip.
This interpretation can ofc change if you provide scans with more accurate translations.
Click to expand...
If she can destroy causality then she must have causality manip
And bruh the scan is litteraly says its causality

And sorry for the late respons.because i'm bussy for these few days
 
I don't why people are crying even though it clearly stated it's casuality. What's there to refuse anyway. It's repeatedly stated multiple times.

Anyway i agree with casuality manipulation for Sasha and she should get death manipulation based on her order.
 
Nightmare_Bloodfallen said:
I don't why people are crying even though it clearly stated it's casuality.
Click to expand...
This comment is completely unnecessary. If you don't have anything actually productive to add to the thread, then just don't comment.

Also, the 2-B durability proposal is so objectively incorrect that even the OP later disagreed with the proposal, but for some reason you still agreed to it earlier, so I'm really starting to question whether you actually want to make the verse accurate or just powerful...

Fixxed said:
If she can destroy causality then she must have causality manip.
Click to expand...
She only destroyed the castle according to your scans, which was the embodiment of that world's causality.
As far as I know, we don't give concept manip to characters who can only destroy the abstract embodiments of concepts and are unable to manipulate/destroy concepts however they want.
In other words, if a character can only destroy X by destroying something that embodies X, and cannot destroy X directly, it is usually treated as NPI.
This is the same reason why we wouldn't normally give concept manip for simply destroying Eugo La Raviaz, the embodiment of the Order of Time. (A character would obviously get concept manip if they destroyed his source tho, like Anos.)
Any knowledgeable members can correct me on the above if I'm incorrect.
I believe the above also applies to causality manip.
I definitely don't think it's impossible for Sasha to get causality manip, since Venuzdonoa also has causality manip (although its justification is much more reliable), but based on the current evidence provided in those poorly translated scans, this again just seems like NPI.
My opinion can obviously change if more accurately translated scans imply that Sasha can also directly destroy causality.
 
imZer0Null said:
Also, the 2-B durability proposal is so objectively incorrect that even the OP later disagreed with the proposal, but for some reason you still agreed to it earlier, so I'm really starting to question whether you actually want to make the verse accurate or just powerful...
Click to expand...
I never argued for 2B durability. I was talking about causality manipulation. Also death manipulation by her order as destruction. I even said l am neutral on logic manipulation for Sasha. I am not just saying random things.
She only destroyed the castle according to your scans, which was the embodiment of that world's causality.
As far as I know, we don't give concept manip to characters who can only destroy the abstract embodiments of concepts and are unable to manipulate/destroy concepts however they want.
In other words, if a character can only destroy X by destroying something that embodies X, and cannot destroy X directly, it is usually treated as NPI.
Click to expand...
I believe it should atleast give causality manipulation for destroying causality of that world.
I believe the above also applies to causality manip.
I definitely don't think it's impossible for Sasha to get causality manip, since Venuzdonoa also has causality manip (although its justification is much more reliable), but based on the current evidence provided in those poorly translated scans, this again just seems like NPI
My opinion can obviously change if more accurately translated scans imply that Sasha can also directly destroy causality
Click to expand...
Venozdonua is created with God of destruction. Also you are only admitting Sasha may have causality manipulation.

Anyway the scan literally states she destroyed the casualty of that World. Atleast she should get Casualty manipulation for destroying the casualty of that world.
This comment is completely unnecessary. If you don't have anything actually productive to add to the thread, then just don't comment.
Click to expand...
Sorry for that i only said that because you simply kept saying scans are not accurate. Atleast provide accurate scans for that feat then. Just saying scans aren't accurate doesn't gonna get this thread anywhere. The whole argument is going back and forth.
 
imZer0Null said:
She only destroyed the castle according to your scans, which was the embodiment of that world's causality.
As far as I know, we don't give concept manip to characters who can only destroy the abstract embodiments of concepts and are unable to manipulate/destroy concepts however they want.
In other words, if a character can only destroy X by destroying something that embodies X, and cannot destroy X directly, it is usually treated as NPI.
This is the same reason why we wouldn't normally give concept manip for simply destroying Eugo La Raviaz, the embodiment of the Order of Time. (A character would obviously get concept manip if they destroyed his source tho, like Anos.)
Any knowledgeable members can correct me on the above if I'm incorrect.
I believe the above also applies to causality manip.
I definitely don't think it's impossible for Sasha to get causality manip, since Venuzdonoa also has causality manip (although its justification is much more reliable), but based on the current evidence provided in those poorly translated scans, this again just seems like NPI.
My opinion can obviously change if more accurately translated scans imply that Sasha can also directly destroy causality.
Click to expand...
「石垣積んでは城をなし、因果重ねて長城をなす。城は因果ぞ、因果は城ぞ。余さず重ねて世界とし、そびえ立つは王虎の巣」
"Stonewalling makes a castle, and causality makes a great wall. A castle is cause and effect, and cause and effect is a castle. A castle is cause and effect, and cause and effect is a castle; pile them all up, and they make a world; towering above is the nest of the king and tiger.
.
.
.
「この世界は妾の城。積み重ねられた石垣は、世界の因果ぞ。わかるかのう？　バランディアスの因果を、妾は支配しているのじゃ。城を積むも崩すも妾の意のまま、すなわち、原因を切り崩し、結果だけを手にすることができるということよなぁ」
This world is my mistress' castle. "This world is my castle, and the stone walls are the cause and effect of the world. Do you understand?　　She controls the cause and effect of all of Barandias. She can build up or tear down the castle as she pleases, which means she can cut down the causes and take only the results.

WN CHAPTER 514
Click to expand...
The castle is literally says it was causality
"A castle is cause and effect, and cause and effect is a castle"
The castle don't embodied causality but causality itself is piled up and forms a castle
"and the stone walls are the cause and effect of the world"

so if you destroy the castle then you destroy causality
 
that not how it work, she need to directly manipulating causality itself, destroy some embodiment is not qualify. Like you destroy someone have AE type 2 who embodied something abstract doesn't mean the can directly manipulating said abstraction. Like character who create universe, the concept by default was created along with the universe, but because it is indirect way, said character will not be granted concept manip

Also, what kind of causality she could destroy again??? if we generously accept that she can destroy causality, what kind of causality???
 
Vietthai96 said:
that not how it work, she need to directly manipulating causality itself, destroy some embodiment is not qualify. Like you destroy someone have AE type 2 who embodied something abstract doesn't mean the can directly manipulating said abstraction. Like character who create universe, the concept by default was created along with the universe, but because it is indirect way, said character will not be granted concept manip

Also, what kind of causality she could destroy again??? if we generously accept that she can destroy causality, what kind of causality???
Click to expand...
The castle is causality it self. Did you not read the scan I sent?

and what if they manipulate AE type 1 which is an abstraction itself? Because its literally says the castle is not embodied of causality but the causality it self that piled up and formed the castle

and what do you mean??? What kind of causality??? If you read the scan, the castle is piled up by cause and effect. Not just says causality
 
Eh i think i agree on null on causality point. She did destroy causality but that's really just concept manipulation i guess. She isn't even manipulating causality like how Maytilen does.
 
Orioreeem said:
Eh i think i agree on null on causality point. She did destroy causality but that's really just concept manipulation i guess. She isn't even manipulating causality like how Maytilen does.
Click to expand...
Why is just concept manip??? Because she manipulated her order to destroy causality???

I don't get the logic in this. If she destroy causality its mean she have causality manip. She wants to use anything it doesn't matter, the important thing is that there is evidence that she can destroy causality
 
Fixxed said:
Why is just concept manip??? Because she manipulated her order to destroy causality???
Click to expand...
Because that's what "destroying causality" gives you. At least that makes the most sense to me in the context here
Fixxed said:
I don't get the logic in this. If she destroy causality its mean she have causality manip.
Click to expand...
Why? How would her causality manipulation even work?
 
To be honest, i still very confuse about the feat itself. Destroy a castle, the castle is cause and effect, cause and effect is the castle.................i mean, how this even work?????. She destroy that structure, but that structure is somehow cause and effect. Lol, this is the most confuse thing i ever see
 
Iirc Maytilen can't use his causality manipulation without the castle so it might be referring to that tho i still have to reared volume 11 again to be sure.
Or it could be an order of causality again not sure been a long time since i read it.
 
Orioreeem said:
Because that's what "destroying causality" gives you. At least that makes the most sense to me in the context here
Click to expand...
What do you mean???
Orioreeem said:
Why? How would her causality manipulation even work?
Click to expand...
Because she destroy causality
Vietthai96 said:
To be honest, i still very confuse about the feat itself. Destroy a castle, the castle is cause and effect, cause and effect is the castle.................i mean, how this even work?????. She destroy that structure, but that structure is somehow cause and effect. Lol, this is the most confuse thing i ever see
Click to expand...
Don't ask me about what is writen there, ask the author. The author him self write that the castle is causality so it is causality
You can translate it yourself if you are not sure about my translation, because I also gave the original language there
 
Even if we giver her causality manipulation it wouldn't be combat applicable because she can't do anything with it so i don't see the point.
 
Fixxed said:
Let me give you a question
If you literally destroy concept or soul or plot or fate you just can have NPI to them???
Click to expand...
For plot and soul you can get soul or plot manipulation because you can use them offensively to destroy someone on soul or narrative level.
As for fate it depends on context i guess. It can be something like power null or resistance like how it is for Anos. At the very least it is NPI.
I first thought of Sasha's feat as resistance but it could very well be that castle itself doesn't have offensive stuff like how Eques' fate manipulation was for example.
 
Fixxed said:
No matter what she can do and she can't do with that, if there is proof that she has it then she will get it
Click to expand...
We know that she can't do any combatt manipulation of causality because she has never done anything in combat with it, but ok i guess. You should create a summery and call someone to evaluate all of this.
 
A moment later, I felt a violent impact on my head and my body was blown right down.

This world is my mistress' castle. The stacked stone walls are the cause and effect of the world. Do you understand? The mistress controls the cause and effect of Balandiras. She can build up or tear down the castle as she pleases, which means she can cut down the causes and take only the results.
Click to expand...
Hey pretty much the cause and effect works on opponents. If i am correct 🤔
 
Summary for so far:
1.Regeneration negation high godly and Immortality negation 3 and 4 because aberneyu order i think is no clarity, but them that against this doesn't seem to reply anymore

2.death manip i think is mostly agree, and null is neutral and also no longer replying to this. So it will be accept

3.fate manipulation, null netral and mostly agree. So it will be accept

4.regeneration negation high godly because kill a god will be accept because no one againts this so i think everyone agree with this

5.chaos manipulation and more from eye of chaotic same with number 1

6.causality manipulation and immunity negation and resistance negation to causality manip, mostly is neutral and agree. I think it will accept because no one is disagree

@Antvasima @Elizhaa @Planck69 can you guys evaluate???
 
Last edited:
You have to go on their walls and ask them to evaluate this. Only stuff can ping others.
And Planck69 said he isn't willing to evaluate this so don't bother him
 
Causality manipulation:
Though Ieaning towards null I'm also neutral on causality manipulation so can't we just leave it as limited seeing as she can only destroy causality. As she won't be able to do anything meaningful with it. Also isn't this just resistance?

Death manipulation:
The trouble here just stems from 'cause and effect', while its okay to leave her without it, to make a case for her to get it, will Anos stating that spells like ingal, aggronment working as a result of her suppressed order be enough as she's seen as the cause of all death?

Fate manipulation:
I'm with fixed on this one. Her order basically leads everything to its destruction eventually so she applying this fate on the worlds inhabitants.

Chaos manipulation:
This is still up in the air. According to Anos its possible to use the 'Magic eyes of chaotic destruction's' real power albeit temporarily, whether it implies a weakness or time limit doesn't matter but there's nothing saying she can't unless we completely disregard statements and go with feats.
 
Tatsumi504 said:
Causality manipulation:
Though Ieaning towards null I'm also neutral on causality manipulation so can't we just leave it as limited seeing as she can only destroy causality. As she won't be able to do anything meaningful with it. Also isn't this just resistance?
Click to expand...
She destroy causality not resist causality
Tatsumi504 said:
Death manipulation:
The trouble here just stems from 'cause and effect', while its okay to leave her without it, to make a case for her to get it, will Anos stating that spells like ingal, aggronment working as a result of her suppressed order be enough as she's seen as the cause of all death?
Click to expand...
I dont understand what you mean
 
Tatsumi504 said:
So what's the conclusion on this then?
Click to expand...

Fixxed said:
Summary for so far:
1.Regeneration negation high godly and Immortality negation 3 and 4 because aberneyu order i think is no clarity, but them that against this doesn't seem to reply anymore

2.death manip i think is mostly agree, and null is neutral and also no longer replying to this. So it will be accept

3.fate manipulation, null netral and mostly agree. So it will be accept

4.regeneration negation high godly because kill a god will be accept because no one againts this so i think everyone agree with this

5.chaos manipulation and more from eye of chaotic same with number 1

6.causality manipulation and immunity negation and resistance negation to causality manip, mostly is neutral and agree. I think it will accept because no one is disagree
Click to expand...
 
Agree with all except death manipulation and casuality manipulation.

Death manipulation can be accepted if the cause is death itself while causality manipulation would be seriously limited as she herself can't manipulate causality only destroy it.
 
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