Updating Pokemon Statistics

[GyroNutz]

A while back, this blog was made detailing what is and isn't canon to Pokemon. Notably, this makes the main games the primary canon and renders stuff like Pokemon Mystery Dungeon as non-canon. I'll go through each tier in turn and discuss what is and isn't affected by this.

Magikarp: Its 9-A feat is based off of Magikarp Jump, which is now non-canon. This means it will revert back to "10-C to 9-B", scaling off of its Pokedex entry stating that elder Magikarp can leap over mountains.

Baby Pokemon: Baby Pokemon are unaffected: their main feats are Cleffa tanking meteor impacts (8-C, 0.62 tons), Magby vaporizing water in a pond (8-C, 0.761 tons, UNEVALUATED) and Togepi landing a rocket (8-C, 1.08 tons). Latter is from the anime.

First Stage Pokemon: These Pokemon are unaffected: their main feats are Earth Power general calc (8-A, 174 tons), Scorbunny heating a steel girder (8-A, 387 tons) and Rhyhorn destroying skyscrapers (8-A+, 648 tons). I believe Ash's Pikachu has an 8-A feat early in the anime S1 too. Scorbunny's is from the manga.

Second Stage Pokemon: These Pokemon are unaffected: their main feats are both on the main Pokemon page. I believe Dragonair has a supporting 7-C storm feat too.

Third Stage Pokemon: This is where we come to an issue. Pupitar toppling a mountain was downgraded to High 7-C around a year ago, and Charizard melting mountains, afaik, is a statement exclusive to Pokemon Mystery Dungeon, which is non-canon. This leaves Defog as the main remaining 7-A feat, along with several statements of Pokemon destroying mountains. But is this enough?

Destroying mountains is not a 7-A feat. Our tiering system is arbitrary, and destroying a small mountain (which can still be considered a mountain) will get results far below 7-A. These statements come from Gigalith's and Salamence's pokedex entries.

Defog has been overexaggerated for too long. In-game, it deals no damage and simply lowers the opponent's evasion, which is used to claim that all fully evolved Pokemon can no-sell Defog. However, Defog acts over a large area, so even the largest Pokemon will only have to tank a small portion of the area that defog actually affects. Furthermore, the feat shown in the Defog calc is one that even first stage Pokemon like Pidgey can replicate. Claiming that this is a feat for fully evolved Pokemon only simply due to its tier is hiding the outlier, and makes the feat unreliable in general.

Most backup feats fall back to 7-B, such as Volcarona replacing the sun (7-B+, 81.73 megatons), Octillery's gunk shot (7-B, 9.56 megatons), Rhyperior tanking volcanic eruptions (Generally treated as 7-B), and Gyarados being able to totally annihilate a major city (Should be treated as at least 7-B). Kingdra creates giant whirlpools just by moving (uncalced), and Electivire can power a major city for a year (uncalced). These would put Pokemon at a consistent 7-B+

There are more feats on top of these which may result in a higher rating than they currently have. Sawk can cleave oceans with its Karate Chop (Was calced at around 6-C, but deemed unreliable), Tyranitar crumbles great mountains and changes landforms simply by the quakes caused by it walking (Could be anywhere from 7-A to tier 6), and Magnitude 10 potentially being 6-C due to our general Richter scale calculations. Possibly more that I'm missing.

The Aura Trio: Their feat comes from Super Mystery Dungeon which is now non-canon. This also affects Magearna and Mega Diancie who scale to Zygarde and Yveltal respectively. This feat is also listed on Rayquaza's and Deoxys' profiles I believe, but those 5-Bs have Grand Meteor Delta scaling, and there are other legendaries such as Kyurem who are explicitly stated to be able to destroy the world.

Darkrai and Cresselia: Their 2-C feat comes from Pokepark, which is non-canon. Part of their 2-B scaling comes from Mystery Dungeon, with Darkrai surviving an attack from Palkia, but this is also non-canon. This would lead to it fighting Dialga and Palkia being non-canon, and a downgrade to "Low 6-B", being comparable to other legendaries such as Latios (used on Tobias' team). Unless there's other instances of it scaling to other legendaries, of course. These two, along with the Creation Trio and the Lake Trio, have their infinite speed also brought into question when removing Mystery Dungeon.

IQ and misc. abilities: Many Pokemon have abilities and mentions of IQ skills in their profiles, as well as other miscellaneous abilities from non-canon games, like synergy bursts in characters who are playable in Pokken, teleportation for several legendaries from Mystery Dungeon, and abilities from Pokemon Conquest. These abilities will simply have to be removed.

The purpose of this thread is primarily to remove all mentions of non-canon feats in our tiering. The final tiering of all profiles affected is up for discussion - in some cases it is more obvious than others.

 

[KieranH10]

The third stage Pokemon Tier change makes a lot of sense, I can personally support 6-C if there's calcs to go with it, but if there's reason not to then a downgrade is fine too.

Aura Trio stuff also makes sense.

Darkrai and Cresselia stuff I'm not sure on, fighting Palkia and Diagla comes from Rise of Darkrai afaik, and I thought Rise of Darkrai was canon? I don't remember much on that so I might be wrong tho.

IQ and other stuff makes sense if the feats are from non-canon sources

 

[Garchomp777]

Y'all ain't ready for my high 5-A magikarp scaling

 

[GyroNutz]

Rise of Darkrai is canon, but it becomes a lot less consistent when removing Darkrai's Pokepark feat (2-C) and Darkrai's Mystery Dungeon scaling (2-B). Hence why I believe it fighting Dialga and Palkia in RoD is an outlier.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Didn't Darkrai fight Mewtwo in The Pokemon Adventures manga?

 

[SamanPatou]

I generally agree with everything and I want to point some other stuff, though.

Calcs that are on Nautoforum should be moved on the wiki and be evaluated.

Ryhorn's feat may not be 8-A, as it is for the total destruction of a skyscraper, while toppling one can be even 9-A (I can't find a calc or else, but I remember it being said often, such as in relation to Overwatch and Doomfist's feat of toppling a skyscraper). Though, the dex talks about shattering a skyscraper, which may be a legit 8-A.

Storm, heat and electricity feats have been revised overtime, as they don't automatically scale to all other characters in a verse, with heat and electricity being good for AP but not usable for durability or striking sgrength.
Same with Rhyperior, withstanding a volcaning eruption doesn't mean it tanks the total energy output of the eruption.
And Gyarados too, it is unknown if it can annihilate a city in a single blast, as even lower tiers can destroy cities overtime, one of the dex entries also mentions Gyarados doing it in a night.

The aura trio still has the 6-A France destruction feat.

 

[GyroNutz]

Didn't Darkrai fight Mewtwo in The Pokemon Adventures manga?

Sounds familiar, would have to see the scans for it tho

 

[GyroNutz]

Storm, heat and electricity feats have been revised overtime, as they don't automatically scale to all other characters in a verse, with heat and electricity being good for AP but not usable for durability or striking sgrength.
Same with Rhyperior, withstanding a volcaning eruption doesn't mean it tanks the total energy output of the volcanic eruption.
And Gyarados too, it is unknown if it can annihilate a city in a single blast, as even lower tiers can destroy cities overtime, one of the dex entries also mentions Gyarados doing it in a night.

The aura trio still has the 6-A France destruction feat.

Considering Pokemon use and survive heat/electric based attacks, that shouldn't be a problem.

Fair

The mention of a night was a rumour, but otherwise yeah the timeframe isn't really known.

If nothing else, the aura trio should be High 6-A since Yveltal/Xerneas would have provided the vast majority of the energy needed for Lysandre to use the Ultimate Weapon again (that calc will also have to be moved to the site + evaluated)

 

[SamanPatou]

My point is that surviving heat and electricity attacks don't translate into durability, but resistance to them depending on the situation. I remember discussing on it in relation to Godzilla (for the heat) and Metal Gear (for the electricity not being used for striking and durability).
They are still good for the AP of the user, though.

But people like @DarkDragonMedeus know better than me how these things work.

 

[KieranH10]

Yes, Electricity and Heat are generally treated as resistance commonly. But with these attacks scaling to Attack Potency, it should be reasonable to assume most attacks are similar in power, therefor withstanding attacks from the characters who achieve these feats still warrants Durability.

 

[SamanPatou]

It's just that those feats shouldn't be used for proper scaling, but there are still several mountain busting statements and stuff like that to support a 7-B rating, I think

iirc even storm feats had problems regarding scaling to statistics other than ap, even though I wouldn't know how to explain it.
Dragonair is still able to do this, though, which whould give nice results and should be usable for scaling.

 

[GyroNutz]

So would that mean heat and electricity resistance for all Pokemon or something? I'm a bit out of the loop.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Yeah no. I’ll go into bigger details later but I’m disagreeing with a lot of this

Especially the Darkrai and Cresselia downgrade

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Yeah, heat and electricity don't scale to blunt force trauma by default; they're still valid AP calculations but attacks that are 100% heat and not much force tend to be a lot less damaging than actual strikes of force. Though blunt force trauma IRL does produce at least as much thermal energy given how atoms and molecules function. And there can be exceptions if universal power sources are interchangeable in which the characters regularly harness the same amount of energy for all their attacks, but there should be more details beyond "Drawing from the same pool of energy".

 

[GyroNutz]

Yeah no. I’ll go into bigger details later but I’m disagreeing with a lot of this

Especially the Darkrai and Cresselia downgrade

I assume you disagree with the whole canonicity issue?

 

[SamanPatou]

So would that mean heat and electricity resistance for all Pokemon or something? I'm a bit out of the loop.

No, because they still take damage. The thing was like surviving a lightning bolt (8-C) doesn't grant you 8-C durability, as neither does withstanding a fire blast.
At most you get resistance if you can tank them without difficulty, which isn't the case for most Pokémon.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

I assume you disagree with the whole canonicity issue?

Pretty much. I’m fine with things like Pokepark being non-canon, but things like MD and Conquest have arguments to also cement their place in the Multiverse as canon and shouldn’t be auto-dumped in the same boat.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Sounds familiar, would have to see the scans for it tho

I think this is the entire fight (It's just an energy clash), Darkrai's attack being intented for Deoxys probably supports them being 5-B

 

[SamanPatou]

I think this thread should serve more as starter to find what to deal with in other threads, as tackling everything here would just create chaos.

 

[GyroNutz]

No, because they still take damage. The thing was like surviving a lightning bolt (8-C) doesn't grant you 8-C durability, as neither does withstanding a fire blast.
At most you get resistance if you can tank them without difficulty, which isn't the case for most Pokémon.

A second stage Pokemon could logically no-sell a heat or electric-based attack from a first stage Pokemon, and so on. Not that this bit matters so much, but if this isn't based on AP (well, durability) whereas the strength of heat and electric moves is based on AP in Pokemon, then wouldn't this translate to some form of resistance?

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

In addition to the whole, "absorbing x joules of heat =/= absorbing x joules of overpressure", there's also the fact that heat based attacks are limited to using watts for AP and resisting them, and thermal equilibrium also might need to be taken into account for much more higher up levels of heat. The targets emissivity and surface area should also preferably be taken into account.

 

[SamanPatou]

A second stage Pokemon could logically no-sell a heat or electric-based attack from a first stage Pokemon, and so on. Not that this bit matters so much, but if this isn't based on AP (well, durability) whereas the strength of heat and electric moves is based on AP in Pokemon, then wouldn't this translate to some form of resistance?

It's kinda weird, because the same could be said of all fiction where electricity and fire users are powerless against superior characters, but that doesn't automatically grants resistance to them.

Like, all Dragon Ball characters should have electricity resistance because Roshi and Buyon's electric attacks would do nothing to most of the cast.

 

[GyroNutz]

I think this is the entire fight (It's just an energy clash), Darkrai's attack being intented for Deoxys probably supports them being 5-B

So Darkrai clashed with Mewtwo. I'm unsure what happened afterwards but this would probably let Darkrai scale.

 

[GyroNutz]

It's kinda weird, because the same could be said of all fiction where electricity and fire users are powerless against superior characters, but that doesn't automatically grants resistance to them.

Like, all Drago Ball characters should have electricity resistance because Roshi and Buyon's electric attacks would do nothing to most of the cast.

Alright, that seems fine.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Okay, so my computer isn’t working and I’m doing this on mobile, so I’m going to tackle the bits I want to address first for now.

A while back, this blog was made detailing what is and isn't canon to Pokemon. Notably, this makes the main games the primary canon and renders stuff like Pokemon Mystery Dungeon as non-canon. I'll go through each tier in turn and discuss what is and isn't affected by this.

Okay, has this canonicity blog actually been accepted here first before? Or was this blog just made from the users perspective and this thread was just made assuming it was? If it wasn’t accepted first, then it needs to have its status verified first before we go making any impactful CRTs involving it.

As I said before and now, I’m against the notion that these side canon games & other material are automatically non-canon. Not just because of what I said about the blog likely not even being accepted first, but also because of the fact that some of these other materials have points to make an arguments to cement their place as canon. Including Mystery Dungeon (which can be saved for later) and Conquest.

So before we go about even removing anything, we need to get to a consensus on the side canon things we have used first before we go about immediately axing them.

My own takeaway is that thing like Pokepark being non-canon Is fine. But that doesn’t automatically spread to everything else to invalidate them.

Tyranitar crumbles great mountains and changes landforms simply by the quakes caused by it walking (Could be anywhere from 7-A to tier 6), and Magnitude 10 potentially being 6-C due to our general Richter scale calculations. Possibly more that I'm missing.aza's and Deoxys' profiles I believe, but those 5-Bs have Grand Meteor Delta scaling, and there are other legendaries such as Kyurem who are explicitly stated to be able to destroy the world.

See above for my point involving MD and it’s canon, but even if it’s decided as non-canon in the end, removing it doesn’t downgrade the Aura Trios ratings that significantly.

And now I get to this point for Darkrai and Cresselias tiering:

Darkrai and Cresselia: Their 2-C feat comes from Pokepark, which is non-canon. Part of their 2-B scaling comes from Mystery Dungeon, with Darkrai surviving an attack from Palkia, but this is also non-canon. This would lead to it fighting Dialga and Palkia being non-canon, and a downgrade to "Low 6-B", being comparable to other legendaries such as Latios (used on Tobias' team). Unless there's other instances of it scaling to other legendaries, of course. These two, along with the Creation Trio and the Lake Trio, have their infinite speed also brought into question when removing Mystery Dungeon.

Again, see above for my consensus about what to do with MD. But MD being removed or staying doesn’t downgrade the Lunar Duo, and this in particular is what I’m vehemently disagreeing with.

The 2-C feat from Pokepark can go as it was never relevant for the scaling. Darkrai and Cresselia should simply be flat out 2-B.

As you said yourself, PART of their 2-B rating comes from Mystery Dungeon, it is not the main justification for it. Mystery Dungeons only additional support. With or without it, we have taken 2-B for these guys beforehand by scaling Darkrai to Dialga and Palkia as the main justification. And on that note, there is absolutely zero reason to claim Darkrai fighting them is an outlier when it’s much more consistent and indicative of Darkrai’s power (and by extension Cresselias) than these minor second lasting confrontations Darkrai has with other legendaries and a walking plot device like Tobias as was said before and what I’ll be repeating now.

Tobias is a non factor in this when there’s nothing from him that suggests Darkrai is of the same caliber as latios besides “being on the same team”. When In Tobias’s possession, this very same Darkrai completed feats that were vastly superior to everyone that came before it in battle. This was a Darkrai that casual one shotted his way through all 8 Sinnoh Region gyms and through every single Sinnoh League participant without so much as breaking a sweat the whole time. Thus, this signifies the point, made clear to us, that this Darkrai is in a class of its own and is vastly superior to opponents we can confirm to be big fodders. Darkrai in this case is not the outlier. The outlier is Ash.

Darkrais only single obstacle of difficulty under Tobias is being two-shotted by Ash’s Sceptile In the Sinnoh League, which very easily becomes the outlier, or PIS as another viable term, when Sceptile had to pull power of friendship nonsense from Ash, and force it’s way through Dark Void, something that no other pokemon has ever managed to do, in order to win against Darkrai. Which ends up being very inconsistent for Sceptile anyway as it gets one shotted by Latios afterwards. Not to mention the fact that Darkrai one shotted all of Ashes other Pokémon aside from Pikachu (who did not battle yet) and when Tobias won against Ash, Darkrai one shotted the participant who went to the finals ahead of Ash. Meaning, Darkrai defeated an opponent who, by a narrative standpoint, is just as strong or stronger than ash with incredible ease. How is Darkrai weaker than an opponent who’s supposed to be weaker than the final opponent he one shotted?

Adding to the fact that Darkrai overall pulled off more impressive accomplishments and feats than everything Ash did in Gen 4, with or without Rise of Darkrai being factored in, it’s clear who’s the inconsistent outlier when comparing the 2. And that outlier being Ash. Tobias isn’t evidence against Darkrais tiering, at all.

Aside from Tobias, the other anti-evidence against Darkrai is that brief 5 second clash he has with Mewtwo in Adventures, which is an even worse case than Ash in terms of how inconsistent it is. Mewtwo is easily the outlier, not Darkrai.

Meanwhile, Rise of Darkrai is the only form of media outside of Mystery Dungeon that actually takes into account Darkrais real power, which is a more reliable source to be indicative of his tier. Rise of Darkrai gives us no vague 5 second confrontations that wouldn’t be viable evidence. We see a real, drawn out battle with Darkrai holding his own against Dialga and Palkia to decent extents, having several scaling feats against them that range from blasting them away with Dark Pulse to even stopping both of their Signature Moves and living to tell about it. And this doesn’t conflict with any hierarchy issues in the scaling since Dialga and Palkia weren’t fighting him at full power and Darkrai died in the end against them ultimately, showing that there’s a blatant difference between him and them, but not to the point where Darkrai is nothing in comparison either.

Rise of Darkrai by itself gives more 2-B feats for Darkrai than feats from the main anime and mangas portions combined. The former is a blatant “in your face” portrayal of Darkrais strength and his limits that makes it believeable and it conflicts with nothing. The latters are either outliers, PIS ridden or 5 second confrontations that don’t involve an actual battle to make it reliable. So even if Mystery Dungeon ends up unusable in the end, that only takes away some supporting evidence. Rise of Darkrai alone is fine enough evidence to keep 2-B for the Lunar Duo.

IQ and misc. abilities: Many Pokemon have abilities and mentions of IQ skills in their profiles, as well as other miscellaneous abilities from non-canon games, like synergy bursts in characters who are playable in Pokken, teleportation for several legendaries from Mystery Dungeon, and abilities from Pokemon Conquest. These abilities will simply have to be removed.

Again for this, see above for my point on the canons.

And that’s my takeaway for this for now. I don’t have much thought on the tiers for the non-legendaries rn, but the stuff involving canon and the lunar duo I wanted to address first.

 

[Thelastmlg]

The aura trio still has the 6-A France destruction feat.

Hold up what feat is that?

 

[SamanPatou]

This

 

[GyroNutz]

"Okay, has this canonicity blog actually been accepted here first before? Or was this blog just made from the users perspective and this thread was just made assuming it was? If it wasn’t accepted first, then it needs to have its status verified first before we go making any impactful CRTs involving it."

Yeah we had a long thread agreeing on what is and isn't canon for Pokemon, and that blog is the result of that thread. Even then, the blog only argues what is canon, not what isn't. The burden of proof is on the side of proving Mystery Dungeon is canon to the main series games, not the other way around. Same goes for other spin offs like Conquest.

"See above for my point involving MD and it’s canon, but even if it’s decided as non-canon in the end, removing it doesn’t downgrade the Aura Trios ratings that significantly."

We discussed their ratings above, but this is a bit vague. Are you claiming they would remain 5-B or what?

"As you said yourself, PART of their 2-B rating comes from Mystery Dungeon, it is not the main justification for it. Mystery Dungeons only additional support. With or without it, we have taken 2-B for these guys beforehand by scaling Darkrai to Dialga and Palkia as the main justification. And on that note, there is absolutely zero reason to claim Darkrai fighting them is an outlier when it’s much more consistent and indicative of Darkrai’s power (and by extension Cresselias) than these minor second lasting confrontations Darkrai has with other legendaries and a walking plot device like Tobias as was said before and what I’ll be repeating now."

Darkrai scaling to the gods of the verse is completely wack. The only reason it even happened in the first place was because Darkrai had his own feat which put him in tier 2, and said other instance of scaling. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof, and Darkrai certainly needs to have shown more than one instance of scaling to be on the Creation Trio's level, who are extremely consistently hit with the PIS stick themselves. I don't see how the length of a confrontation makes something more consistent either, a writer writes a fight, he doesn't sporadically change his mind on the power scale mid-fight.

"Darkrais only single obstacle of difficulty under Tobias is being two-shotted by Ash’s Sceptile In the Sinnoh League, which very easily becomes the outlier, or PIS as another viable term, when Sceptile had to pull power of friendship nonsense from Ash, and force it’s way through Dark Void, something that no other pokemon has ever managed to do, in order to win against Darkrai. Which ends being very inconsistent for Sceptile as it gets one shotted by Latios afterwards. Not to mention the fact that Darkrai one shotted all of Ashes other Pokémon aside from Pikachu (who did not battle yet) and when Tobias won against Ash, Darkrai one shotted the participant who went to the finals ahead of Ash. Meaning, Darkrai defeated an opponent who, by a narrative standpoint, is just as strong or stronger than ash with incredible ease. How is Darkrai weaker than an opponent who’s supposed to be weaker than the final opponent he one shotted?"

Sceptile was weakened by Darkrai when it was taken out by Latios. Also nothing scales the no-name who came 2nd place above Ash; they never even fought. The main take-away from the Tobias fight isn't that Darkrai is at Sceptile's level or that Ash's Pikachu is at Latios' level, it was a suggestion of an instance where Darkrai's power is comparable to that of a basic legendary like Latios.

"...And this doesn’t conflict with any hierarchy issues in the scaling since Dialga and Palkia weren’t fighting him at full power and Darkrai died in the end against them ultimately, showing that there’s a blatant difference between him and them, but not to the point where Darkrai is nothing in comparison either."

In terms of hierarchy, Darkrai is the bringer of bad dreams. Dialga and Palkia govern the space-time of the multiverse. How does Darkrai ultimately losing justify him being a degree of infinity above any other Pokemon who isn't already an established "god" in the lore? I don't get this argument.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

If Regigigas fighting The Creation Trio on three separate occasions are outliers, Darkrai's is also probably an outlier

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Yeah we had a long thread agreeing on what is and isn't canon for Pokemon, and that blog is the result of that thread. Even then, the blog only argues what is canon, not what isn't. The burden of proof is on the side of proving Mystery Dungeon is canon to the main series games, not the other way around. Same goes for other spin offs like Conquest.

Where is this thread if you can link it please? And if I need to make separate threads for MD & Conquest, I will do so.

"See above for my point involving MD and it’s canon, but even if it’s decided as non-canon in the end, removing it doesn’t downgrade the Aura Trios ratings that significantly."

We discussed their ratings above, but this is a bit vague. Are you claiming they would remain 5-B or what?

Their 5-B ratings would stay yes, Mystery Dungeon was again just support for it. They’d most likely be lower in 5-B, but they’d keep it as a whole. And as i said, I will make a separate thread for the side spin offs I disagree with being non-canon.

"As you said yourself, PART of their 2-B rating comes from Mystery Dungeon, it is not the main justification for it. Mystery Dungeons only additional support. With or without it, we have taken 2-B for these guys beforehand by scaling Darkrai to Dialga and Palkia as the main justification. And on that note, there is absolutely zero reason to claim Darkrai fighting them is an outlier when it’s much more consistent and indicative of Darkrai’s power (and by extension Cresselias) than these minor second lasting confrontations Darkrai has with other legendaries and a walking plot device like Tobias as was said before and what I’ll be repeating now."

Darkrai scaling to the gods of the verse is completely wack. The only reason it even happened in the first place was because Darkrai had his own feat which put him in tier 2, and said other instance of scaling. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof, and Darkrai certainly needs to have shown more than one instance of scaling to be on the Creation Trio's level

No, Darkrai and Cresselia was 2-B before Pokepark was factored into the rating, and even then, things change. Tiers can be handed off here for less than what’s asked here, and this isn’t as if Darkrai did one thing against them. This is a fight full of 2-B scaling feats, which is most definitely enough to sustain the rating.

So no, it’s not “one instance”, it’s a fight with several instances. Your downplaying the evidence here.

, who are extremely consistently hit with the PIS stick themselves. I don't see how the length of a confrontation makes something more consistent either, a writer writes a fight, he doesn't sporadically change his mind on the power scale mid-fight.

The length of the fight matters because not only does it make it viable evidence as an actual fight to scale from and not some quick second confrontation, but the length of the fight gives more evidence of scaling feats from said fight itself. Hell, Rise of Darkrai actually gives them the most evidence for 2-B as opposed to Mystery Dungeon.

In Mystery Dungeon, the only supporting 2-B feat is tanking one attack from Palkia, and at best, scaling to the protagonist should you consider them to scale to dialga. If not, then it’s one feat.

Darkrai tanks multiple attacks from them both in the movie, including their most powerful attacks, and is able to actually harm those two in the movie. Yet this somehow isn’t enough?

"Darkrais only single obstacle of difficulty under Tobias is being two-shotted by Ash’s Sceptile In the Sinnoh League, which very easily becomes the outlier, or PIS as another viable term, when Sceptile had to pull power of friendship nonsense from Ash, and force it’s way through Dark Void, something that no other pokemon has ever managed to do, in order to win against Darkrai. Which ends being very inconsistent for Sceptile as it gets one shotted by Latios afterwards. Not to mention the fact that Darkrai one shotted all of Ashes other Pokémon aside from Pikachu (who did not battle yet) and when Tobias won against Ash, Darkrai one shotted the participant who went to the finals ahead of Ash. Meaning, Darkrai defeated an opponent who, by a narrative standpoint, is just as strong or stronger than ash with incredible ease. How is Darkrai weaker than an opponent who’s supposed to be weaker than the final opponent he one shotted?"

Sceptile was weakened by Darkrai when it was taken out by Latios. Also nothing scales the no-name who came 2nd place above Ash; they never even fought. The main take-away from the Tobias fight isn't that Darkrai is at Sceptile's level or that Ash's Pikachu is at Latios' level, it was a suggestion of an instance where Darkrai's power is comparable to that of a basic legendary like Latios.

Your missing the overall point here on this.

Sceptile having any sort of relative scaling to Darkrai is whats the outlier here. Not the other way around as an anti-feat for Darkrai. In order to argue Darkrai being on the same caliber as Latios, you have to have Sceptile being relative to Darkrai in the first place, which is what’s the actual issue here with this argument.

"...And this doesn’t conflict with any hierarchy issues in the scaling since Dialga and Palkia weren’t fighting him at full power and Darkrai died in the end against them ultimately, showing that there’s a blatant difference between him and them, but not to the point where Darkrai is nothing in comparison either."

In terms of hierarchy, Darkrai is the bringer of bad dreams. Dialga and Palkia govern the space-time of the multiverse. How does Darkrai ultimately losing justify him being a degree of infinity above any other Pokemon who isn't already an established "god" in the lore? I don't get this argument.

Your missing the point here too. I say “hierarchy” as in Darkrai scaling from this does not place him above the Creation Trio, who are supposed to be above everyone not named Arceus. Being less than those at the top of the food chain gives more leverage to avoid outlier scaling.

And aside from that, Darkrai is the exception because he has the feats to cement it. The others do not.

If Regigigas fighting The Creation Trio on three separate occasions are outliers, Darkrai's is also probably an outlier

Big False Equivalences here and I figured this would be brought up.

For one, Regigigas was actually one shotted by Dialga before, and extremely easily at that. There was no actual fight in that instance. Darkrai here is fighting both Dialga and Palkia at once, and is taking a punch.

Second, Regigigas in that first scan isn’t even fighting Dialga and Palkia. It’s running up to those 2 and grabbing them without those 2 giving any actual resistance. Fighting a 2-B who isn’t actually resisting you with 2-B power...doesn’t exactly make you 2-B.

Third, that second scan is more or less the same thing, except this one involves literally all the gen 4 legendaries and mythical stars in a battle royale rumble, which is much much worse than what im using to defend darkrai. Darkrai fighting 2 of the creation trio and eventually losing is far more reasonable to have than Regigigas surviving a rumble with ALL of the creation trio, the lake trio, and other legendaries.

Fourth, that scan with Heatran & Giratina is actually more of another anti feat and goes against your point. From what I got from the scan, Regigigas picked up Heatran and threw him on top of Giratina, who flew off without so much as a scratch. That moreso says Regigigas isn’t relative to them than saying he is on.

On top of all of this, Regigigas is a legendary known with an infinitely inferior quantifiable feat and scaling compared to the creation trio, which is moving continents and scaling above the Regis. Darkrai and Cresselia have no known feats outside of 2-B, aside from a 5 second collision with Mewtwo, which is easily less concrete than Rise of Darkrai

 

[Peter1129]

Just saying the Aura Trio still scales to Mega Mewtwo. 50% Zygarde was able to overpower and than later on pretty much one shot Mega Mewtwo. Also we need to remove the part about Zygarde absorbing energy from Xerneas and Yveltal.

Cause I actually took a look at the English translations again as well as the Chinese translation and the original Japanese scans and than compared them with each other. And to my knowledge it was never actually stated that 50% Zygarde absorbed energy from Xerneas or Yveltal. It said that Zygarde absorbed the Zygarde cells from his surrounding to enter 50% form in order to stop the fight between Xerneas and Yveltal. Which is why when they stopped fighting he also started to exit his 50% form as he no longer needed to assume the form to stop them. So

Perfect Zygarde > Aura Trio > Mega Mewtwo/Mega Rayquaza > Deoxys = Grand Meteor Delta (5-B)

 

[Chariot190]

Magikarp: Its 9-A feat is based off of Magikarp Jump, which is now non-canon. This means it will revert back to "10-C to 9-B", scaling off of its Pokedex entry stating that elder Magikarp can leap over mountains.

If only you knew...

Edit: I actually for the **** of it did a rough calc, KE is between 9-A to 8-C. The PE is the same as well. May toss it into a blog, though it wouldnt scale to 99% of the species.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Second, Regigigas in that first scan isn’t even fighting Dialga and Palkia. It’s running up to those 2 and grabbing them without those 2 giving any actual resistance. Fighting a 2-B who isn’t actually resisting you with 2-B power...doesn’t exactly make you 2-B.

Palkia and Dialga were still under Cyrus's control when it happened, Cyrus was even surprised when they stopped fighting

Fourth, that scan with Heatran & Giratina is actually more of another anti feat and goes against your point. From what I got from the scan, Regigigas picked up Heatran and threw him on top of Giratina, who flew off without so much as a scratch. That moreso says Regigigas isn’t relative to them than saying he is on.

How is it an anti feat? Giratina tried to sneak attack Regigigas, Regigigas picked it up and tossed it on Heatran and threw a large pile of snow on the two. Which made Giratina retreat

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Palkia and Dialga were still under Cyrus's control when it happened, Cyrus was even surprised when they stopped fighting

Why does this matter? The point I gave before on this is that Dialga and Palkia did not attack Regigigas when it grabbed them, they stood in place and allowed that to happen without displaying any resistance against Regigigas.

Grabbing and restraining someone who’s letting you do that without fighting back is not a feat.

How is it an anti feat? Giratina tried to sneak attack Regigigas, Regigigas picked up Giratina and tossed it on Heatran and threw a large pile of snow on the two. Which made Giratina retreat

Because Giratina didn’t receive so much as a scratch from that little encounter. It was thrown and then flew off. That’s all. It’s not a feat for Regigigas, much less an anti feat for Giratina, when all that happened was one throwing the other, which also isn’t a scaling feat if nothing comes out of it.

 

[Abstractions]

Reviewing the blog but I'm a bit busy at the moment so I'll respond late, however lots of the scaling stuff looks fine and I agree with SamanPatou on the issue regarding skyscrapers.

 

[GyroNutz]

If only you knew...

Woa. Cheers, I got a good laugh out of that

 

[Chariot190]

Woa. Cheers, I got a good laugh out of that

It's easily calcable, 9-A to 8-C, issue is I'm not so sure how eager you'd be to apply it the the profiles, that Karp is a beast among karps, not exactly the standard.

 

[Ionliosite]

Ok, I'll put this on here since it's very relevant: unless there's a lore reason for it (like with the Lake Trio) scaling to the Creation Trio is VERY much a no. These characters are the ones who created the whole multiverse, they're literally the Gods of the setting, which means that every time they appear, they are hit hard with the PIS stick: we all know the writers can't just have Dialga and Palkia automatically one-shot everything they touch, so of course we have other Legendaries fighting them - look at the Hoopa for a very blatant example of this. Darkrai was only accepted to scaling to them because of having his own Tier 2 feat, with Poképark out of what we consider canon, Darkrai's scaling is as much of an outlier as basically everything else.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Ok, I'll put this on here since it's very relevant: unless there's a lore reason for it (like with the Lake Trio) scaling to the Creation Trio is VERY much a no. These characters are the ones who created the whole multiverse, they're literally the Gods of the setting, which means that every time they appear, they are hit hard with the PIS stick: we all know the writers can't just have Dialga and Palkia automatically one-shot everything they touch, so of course we have other Legendaries fighting them - look at the Hoopa for a very blatant example of this. Darkrai was only accepted to scaling to them because of having his own Tier 2 feat, with Poképark out of what we consider canon, Darkrai's scaling is as much of an outlier as basically everything else.

I’m sorry, but no. These false equivalencies need to stop being mentioned because every single one of those legendaries not named the Lake Trio brought as examples have actual reasons for why they shouldn’t and do not scale to the CT. Darkrai does not.

These are legendaries with quantifiably known feats, scaling and occurrences that put them no where remotely close to the creation trio. Hoopa as you said, and the non-god tier legendaries he summoned for said rumble. Legendaries who are 5-B - 4-B, and thus, obviously no where close to the god tiers.

Darkrai is a legendary who has no other feat besides him being relative to the trio, making 2-B the only known tier he receives in the verse. And by that extension, 2-B is what is the most consistent for him. Under these circumstances, its impossible for it to be an outlier (which is being very overused here).

Something cannot be an outlier without other existing lower feats to compare it to. That is what an outlier is. And Darkrais feat literally can’t be an outlier because he has no other feat to compare 2-B to (as of now anyway). If there’s no other feat, then the one left behind is what becomes consistent and useable. And for what Darkrai gets out of it? Scaling that still makes him inferior to the ones he’d be scaling from.

Being “the creators of the Multiverse” isn’t a counter argument when this said scaling for Darkrai doesn’t conflict with said god tier status in the first place. If Darkrai would be put above them? Then you would have a point. But that isn’t the case, or what the argument gives.

2-B or not, Darkrai still ends up weaker than Dialga and Palkia. They were not fighting him at full power. Darkrai was only strong enough to last a while against them and fend off their attacks. And even with that performance, Darkrai was killed in the end. All of this only gives Darkrai enough to downscale from the trio, not equal them and most definitely not end up as stronger than them. And downscaling from them conflicts with nothing in the hierarchy. They are still the strongest next to Arceus. So, again, what is the actual problem?

This downscaling fits just fine and conflicts with nothing against the god tiers place in the verse. This downscaling is the only known feat for Darkrai, making it impossible for it to be an outlier. There is no actual argument or reason posted here that reasonably gives a point against the scaling being applied, other than “it doesn’t feel right”.

 

[Ionliosite]

Darkrai has scaling to Mewtwo and Deoxys posted above, so saying "he does nothing but fight the Creation Trio" is false. Also, the fact Darkrai is pretty obviously weaker than them to the point he was killed after lasting only a little while when they weren't even fighting at full power puts your whole scaling heavily in doubt.