Updated Dragon Ball AP Ratings Upgrade

[Ednaxel2]

Where does 5-A come from? Downscaling from Frieza's feat? Truth be told, I am basically against that given how inconsistent PLs and such are.

It is downscaling from Frieza's feat but not via power levels but with stated multiplier differences like these:

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

It is downscaling from Frieza's feat but not via power levels but with stated multiplier differences like these:

I'm still iffy about those methods and think a "Multiplied by 20" statement could refer to more than 20. But okay.

 

[Damage3245]

Where does 5-A come from? Downscaling from Frieza's feat? Truth be told, I am basically against that given how inconsistent PLs and such are. Or was Roshi or Piccolo's Anime versions of the moon destruction feats accepted? Would be more neutral if it was the latter, but basically against using it if it's based on the former.

There are basically two main options for powerscaling Dragon Ball Z as far as I can see it.

We start at Master Roshi's or Piccolo's Moon-destroying feats (and Vegeta's Planet-destroying statement) and scale the characters from DBZ from there, using the scaling and multipliers from the Saiyan Saga all the way up to the Cell Saga.

Or we start at Frieza's Planet-destroying feat which is used for scaling the Frieza Saga characters and we backscale the characters in the Saiyan Saga from that via the multipliers and scaling, and continue the scaling from the Frieza Saga up to the Cell Saga.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

There are basically two main options for powerscaling Dragon Ball Z as far as I can see it.

We start at Master Roshi's or Piccolo's Moon-destroying feats (and Vegeta's Planet-destroying statement) and scale the characters from DBZ from there, using the scaling and multipliers from the Saiyan Saga all the way up to the Cell Saga.

Or we start at Frieza's Planet-destroying feat which is used for scaling the Frieza Saga characters and we backscale the characters in the Saiyan Saga from that via the multipliers and scaling, and continue the scaling from the Frieza Saga up to the Cell Saga.

That sounds like a weird anti-middle ground policy. Between the two options, I suppose the Frieza example is better albeit even his feat is heavily lowballed for numerous reasons I mentioned all the time. But I still find it iffy to downscale from someone much stronger.

 

[Damage3245]

That sounds like a weird anti-middle ground policy. Between the two options, I suppose the Frieza example is better albeit even his feat is heavily lowballed for numerous reasons I mentioned all the time. But I still find it iffy to downscale from someone much stronger.

I'm not saying there aren't options from compromising but those are the two main options.

We could also do it so that we scale the Frieza Saga characters and beyond to Frieza's feat and don't backscale anyone from the Saiyan Saga to it too.

 

[noninho]

So far the only change imma make is changing those "mega" and "kilo", as it's the only thing we all agreed it sucks and know the solution (I just didn't change it because the statistics were apparently called out as correct on the other thread. If any other thing sounds like a typo or that should be corrected, please bring it up)

As for the things brought up should change (the entire scaling for Z, if I understood correctly): what should we do differently from how the blog is now?

 

[noninho]

Or was Roshi or Piccolo's Anime versions of the moon destruction feats accepted?

Yes, and they're base for most of Classic's rating.

Where does 5-A come from? Downscaling from Frieza's feat?

Kinda. Beginning of Z and Saiyan saga are scaling from a statement of how strong is that time's goku compared to himself in other future sagas and then it's how people compare to it, power-ups multiplying and then how people compare to them until... the end of the blog

 

[Ednaxel2]

I'm still iffy about those methods and think a "Multiplied by 20" statement could refer to more than 20. But okay.

It says "nearly 20 times" so it can't be anything more

 

[Ednaxel2]

@nonhino you should add a ref list at the bottom of the blog to keep all of the refferences in place and not a mess, just copy paste this:
{{scroll box|content={{reflist|2}}}}
at the bottom

 

[Ednaxel2]

If the downscaling gets accepted, might as well apply it to the DBZ Kakarot scaling chain too since it uses the same guides

 

[noninho]

@nonhino you should add a ref list at the bottom of the blog to keep all of the refferences in place and not a mess, just copy paste this:
{{scroll box|content={{reflist|2}}}}
at the bottom

it sucks more imo because now there's a scroll on the list, but imma only take it off or search another way if it bothers anyone else, as it's more organized than before, for sure

 

[Ednaxel2]

it sucks more imo because now there's a scroll on the list, but imma only take it off or search another way if it bothers anyone else, as it's more organized than before, for sure

Maybe just add a header for references above it like here

 

[noninho]

Bumping this

 

[Veronica]

Goody bumpy bump

 

[noninho]

As for the things brought up should change (the entire scaling for Z, if I understood correctly): what should we do differently from how the blog is now?

I'd like Lord Medeus' and Damage's opinion on this so imma @ them, sorta.

.

.

 

[AguilaR202]

It is downscaling from Frieza's feat but not via power levels but with stated multiplier differences like these:

Dude those are Powerlevels, they’re literally listed on that same picture, doesn’t anyone freaking notice that those multipliers are literally taken off the difference between Powerlevels?

BoZ Goku = 416
Saiyan Saga Goku >8000
Literally a 20x times difference.

 

[noninho]

literally

Literally

8000÷20=400
400≠416

8000÷×=416
8000=416×
×=8000÷416
×=19,23

19,13≠20
That's why he says "about 20x". Dunno where you live but here in Brazil we literally have sort of a proverb that translates to "direct talking doesn't make curves, 19 isn't 20." I swear.

 

[Ednaxel2]

8000÷20=400
400≠416

8000÷×=416
8000=416×
×=8000÷416
×=19,23

19,13≠20
That's why he says "about 20x". Dunno where you live but here in Brazil we literally have sort of a proverb that translates to "direct talking doesn't make curves, 19 isn't 20." I swear.

Another thing is that it says he increases his power by just 10x between the namek and saiyan saga when it's actually blatantly over that judging by power levels

Also if anything these statements just fall under the same line as Super Saiyan, Oozaru and Kaio-ken: increases PL and actual power linearly

 

[noninho]

PL and actual power

I find it really funny that we have to speak things like that on this verse

 

[Ednaxel2]

I find it really funny that we have to speak things like that on this verse

I have friends that still call Super Saiyan "Super Saiyan Grade 4" even for the series currently

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Yeah, the "Nearly 20 times" statement does seem to reference the 416 to "Over 8000" PL. Would have at least been more believable if he said "More than 10 times" given the fact that Goku considerably trained where he efficiently on 10 G's as he once did on 1 G. Same with the Frieza saga statement after training at 100 G's. But I think the 20x statement may need to be taken with a grain of salt given the nature of PL comparisons. And in the case of Ginyu saga, it is up to interpretation that the "10 times" statement is actually a lowball. Ginyu saga Goku and by extension Captain Ginyu (Vegeta matching 1st form Frieza was a power up that wouldn't be downscaling, as is Beast mode Gohan) are really the only characters I feel right downscaling from 1st form Frieza.

 

[LordTracer]

Ginyu saga Goku and by extension Captain Ginyu (Vegeta matching 1st form Frieza was a power up that wouldn't be downscaling, as is Beast mode Gohan) are really the only characters I feel right downscaling from 1st form Frieza.

If Ginyu Saga Goku backscales, then Saiyan Saga Vegeta would also backscale, since Kaioken Goku has the same PL as Oozaru Vegeta (180,000) and base Vegeta would be 1/10 of that. This was discussed for quite a while in the previous thread.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

If Ginyu Saga Goku backscales, then Saiyan Saga Vegeta would also backscale, since Kaioken Goku has the same PL as Oozaru Vegeta (180,000) and base Vegeta would be 1/10 of that. This was discussed for quite a while in the previous thread.

The 180,000 is merely hypothetical and isn't really stated in the manga. It's guess worked by Dragon Ball wiki a long time ago. He's simply 10x the power of base which doesn't always effect the PL rating linearly.

 

[Damage3245]

The 180,000 is merely hypothetical and isn't really stated in the manga. It's guess worked by Dragon Ball wiki a long time ago. He's simply 10x the power of base which doesn't always effect the PL rating linearly.

Oh? I didn't realize that; I thought it was stated somewhere and not assumed.

 

[noninho]

So we should reform Saiyan Saga and Namek Saga to scale backwards?

 

[Ednaxel2]

Oh? I didn't realize that; I thought it was stated somewhere and not assumed.

It is stated that it increases PL linearly by 10x like SSJ and Kaio-ken

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I have work soon, but I only remember Ozaru having a "10x statement". I know some secondary canon stuff list base Goku at 10 and his Ozaru form at 100, but those are secondary canon. The 180,000 thing was never stated but using the "10x statement". But that's secondary canon at best.

 

[LordTracer]

The 180,000 is merely hypothetical and isn't really stated in the manga. It's guess worked by Dragon Ball wiki a long time ago. He's simply 10x the power of base which doesn't always effect the PL rating linearly.

Can you provide an example where a directly stated multiplier, like the Oozaru’s 10x, hasn’t affected a PL linearly?

 

[Ednaxel2]

I have work soon, but I only remember Ozaru having a "10x statement". I know some secondary canon stuff list base Goku at 10 and his Ozaru form at 100, but those are secondary canon. The 180,000 thing was never stated but using the "10x statement". But that's secondary canon at best.

Do all guides count as secondary canon? Cause if so then yeah, Oozaru Goku being 100 and base Goku being 10 was only in the daizenshuu

 

[Flashlight237]

As a Dragon Ball fan myself, last time I checked, power levels are not linear.

 

[LordTracer]

As a Dragon Ball fan myself, last time I checked, power levels are not linear.

No one is saying that PLs are linear. But they do get multiplied linearly by things like Oozaru, Kaioken and Super Saiyan.

 

[noninho]

Buuuump

 

[The_Yellow_Topaz]

Love how this is supposed to be a cleaner thread.

The Oozaru multiplier has to be consistent. 10x is the minimum here. And it's absolutely grounds for downscaling, as the power level is consistent throughout.

 

[AguilaR202]

Shouldn’t Final Form Freeza be scaled off his 1% power being > 2nd Form

His percentages scale linearly to his powerlevel and at 1% he’d be 1,200,000 easily around or above the level of second form Freeza who is just ‘over a million’ in comparison.

 

[LordTracer]

he’d be 1,200,000 easily around or above the level of second form Freeza who is just ‘over a million’ in comparison.

Eh… We don‘t know for certain what Second Form Freeza’s PL is, all we know is that it’s over a million. All we can glean from that is that it’s more than 1,000,000 and probably less than 2,000,000. I don’t see how we could assume that Final Form Freeza’s 1% PL is comparable/greater than that.

 

[AguilaR202]

Eh… We don‘t know for certain what Second Form Freeza’s PL is, all we know is that it’s over a million. All we can glean from that is that it’s more than 1,000,000 and probably less than 2,000,000. I don’t see how we could assume that Final Form Freeza’s 1% PL is comparable/greater than that.

Over a million most likely means just barely over it, anything bordering on 2 million would use that value as frame of reference.

And doesn’t the current scale have 2nd form at just 2x first form? Highly unlikely it’s powerlevel would be close to 1,500,000 then it’d be rated as much higher than just the 2x we give him.

But if we’re going to be really pedantic over not using Powerlevels alone and just as frames of reference, you could say that since pre Zenkai Namek Goku with a KKx6 would have a of PL = 540,000 practically equal to First Form Freezas 530,000 then he’d be around 80% stronger than that at KKx10 given the linearity of Kaioken and still only have a powerlevel of 900,000, well below 1% of FF Freezas power.

 

[The_Yellow_Topaz]

Eh… We don‘t know for certain what Second Form Freeza’s PL is, all we know is that it’s over a million. All we can glean from that is that it’s more than 1,000,000 and probably less than 2,000,000. I don’t see how we could assume that Final Form Freeza’s 1% PL is comparable/greater than that.

We know Piccolo was exactly 1 million and could fight him. We're currently low balling FF Frieza a lot, so I don't see this as a problem.

 

[Mr.Cinos15]

But if we’re going to be really pedantic over not using Powerlevels alone and just as frames of reference, you could say that since pre Zenkai Namek Goku with a KKx6 would have a of PL = 540,000 practically equal to First Form Freezas 530,000 then he’d be around 80% stronger than that at KKx10 given the linearity of Kaioken and still only have a powerlevel of 900,000, well below 1% of FF Freezas power.

Funnily enough I've brought this up before in the general thread, but didn't wanna push it since it relies on a theoretical (even if the theoretical is completely logical and within reason).

 

[LordTracer]

And doesn’t the current scale have 2nd form at just 2x first form?

Oh, right, I completely forgot about that. Nvm then, I’m fine with 1% Final Form Freeza being stronger than his Second Form.

We know Piccolo was exactly 1 million

We do?

 

[The_Yellow_Topaz]

We do?

"Surpassed one million".
Oops, my B. I thought it was "reached".

Anyway, since Second Form Frieza is "barely 2x" stronger than First Form, it should still be below 1.2 Mil