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Universal DMC: Dante's Awakening

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I'm home from work. Will check the thread right now to see if there are any new arguments.
 
Dante Demon Killah said:
Lol, you guys did not understood what Reb meant.
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Could you further clarify? I apologise if I misunderstood.
 
We cannot simply find other verses that were scaled a certain way and expect absolute consistency with each other, no. Everything has to be evaluated on its own merits.

As I mentioned, I thought that Kepekley seemed to make sense though.
 
I agree with Antvasima. Currently, as I mentioned, comparisons to other verses can be used to either support or deny just about any side of any debate, because there is no real consistency when dealing with these on a case-by-case basis. I still hold my argument as to why I do not believe it to be an outlier, but I won't pretend that comparing DMC to other verses, regardless of which side of the argument is being argued for, is valid evidence.
 
Well, it's a bit hypocritical for the opposition to turn down the verse equivalencies as irrelevant, while arguing them at the same time themselves. I do agree they shouldn't be the main point in an argument, however.

Also, I don't really understand what you meant by people misunderstanding me either, Dante.
 
DarkGrath is correct.
 
RebubleUselet said:
Well, it's a bit hypocritical for the opposition to turn down the verse equivalencies as irrelevant, while arguing them at the same time themselves.

Also, I don't really understand what you meant by people misunderstanding me either, Dante.
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Don't worry Reb, I'm not ignorant to that. I'm not just calling you out on it specifically; I've mentioned this problem before. Everybody has been doing it, and it needs to stop. Neither the supporters nor the opposition should use comparisons to other verses as evidence.
 
Most of the God Tiers would all scale to eachother. Argosax to Mundus (they are stated to be equal in the History of DMC video), Mundus to Dante and Sparda (both of them defeated Mundus), Dante to Urizen (Urizen best DMC5 early game Dante), you get the idea. I can go completely comprehensive about tier changes based on this if you'd like, but it might take a little while to write.
 
Would a comprehensive list of tiering changes need to be addressed?
 
I do agree that simply saying, "it's an outlier" isn't enough to refute it. And even the word "outliers" are a commonly overused term. Having only one feat on the level, or the feat being above every other demonstrated feat doesn't make a feat an outlier; there needs to be case by case and elaborate context for why it's an outlier. Which details are explained next paragraph.

Other things to consider include the low end feats being casual, and/or the characters are actively using precision strikes {trying to avoid destruction}, while the high end feat has the character going all out or at least being semi serious (And is actively letting their own demonstrated power do the work). In said examples, the high end feat is concrete. If all feats are casual, then the highest feat holds the most weight at least for top tiers/god tiers. But if the best feat was only once performed by a early while later portrayals are far weaker, that can also very. If the characters got weaker, then they could still be 3-A back then. But a fodder character performing the only universal feat while every one else peaks at much lower usually leads to outlier.

I'll also note that I'm pretty sure Dante has gotten stronger in later chronology games, and I don't think Argosax fodder fodder, but again. Context matters, and it's best if Matt either added his own details or at least copy/paste what Cal said here.
 
Not to beat the dead horse,but much like dmc,other verses have god tiers leagues beyond the rest in their series with feats on a level much higher then anybody else feat that isnt a god tier and they get approved,others have one feat but it applies to the strongest ones only while the rest not,so why would dmc be an exception here?
 
BlackDarkness679 said:
Not to beat the dead horse,but much like dmc,other verses have god tiers leagues beyond the rest in their series with feats on a level much higher then anybody else feat that isnt a god tier and they get approved,others have one feat but it applies to the strongest ones only while the rest not,so why would dmc be an exception here?
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Again, I do understand your point. But as I've mentioemd, due to the case-by-case nature of CRT's, we simply cannot validly use comparisons to other verses as a measure here.
 
Thats all i had to say for that

Anyway argosax feat is universal,mundus feat was talked and should be accepted too and if void mundus could get asked by the writer of the novel or something about his deal,like the size of the void mostly,that would solidify the 3-A more
 
Is Matthew still available?
 
Pretty much all you've said doesn't apply here, as god-tiers (including those who scale above Argosax & Mundus) have no other feats. At all.

EDIT: Nevermind, there are some, but they're all of the same magnitude.
 
the thing is dante stomping agrosax wouldn't make this an outlier at all. Firstly he already beat mundus with sparda sword which agrosax was said to rival. But the main thing is that Dante already beaten void mundus who was already stated to be above the canon mundus and quite easily to boot iirc so...it wouldn't be out of line for dante to stomp agrosax after that business
 
Wait, what exactly did Medeus say? It's probably just my sleep-deprived brain talking, but it sounded like he was supporting the CRT and now the supporters are arguing against him? I might be having a stroke, its been a while since I've been this confused.
 
So Argosax's feat is Universe level

Mundus scales for being stated to be equal, Dante defeated Mundus in Sparda DT, later defeated Void Mundus (stronger than the original) in base, and later defeated Argosax also in base, both fights without any trouble with the battles described as being easy for him

- But Argosax was weakened

No, he wasn't

Basically, the ritual that Arius was performing was to release Argosax and it worked with 3 Arcanas, creating a portal that links Argosax with the Human World, and then Dante fights him inside the Demon World, probably to avoid any destruction in the Human World. The ritual has nothing to do with Argosax's level of power, but to release him, and it worked, in the end

- Arius was draining Argosax's power

Actually, he was possessed by him, and even with this, he was a fodder that lost to Lucia, even if he took a portion from Argosax's power, it is a pathetic portion in comparison to his full power, considering him as 6-C, 3-A, whatever

We also have in-lore statements for Argosax being equal to Mundus in that fight since the quote is "even a Demon King with power equal to Mundus couldn't defeat Dante", something like that, basically stating that Dante was already superior to Mundus at that point

I guess Anime Dante and Sid don't scale

The Savior had Nero + Devil Sword Sparda so he might scale...I think ?
 
Urizen post fruit wouldnt make him equal to mundus at allbecause of the fruit. The fact that Urizen has gotten exponentially stronger ever since he used the qlipoth root as his supply. He went to beatingfuck out of dante in the prologue despite being 2 weeks od abosrbing bloods. Vergil beforehand he split himself should be no where near dante since he just got back from recovery from being nelo angelo. Evenif Vergil split his two sided lineage it wouldnt make his demonic self a boost considering the purpose of splitting himself is just to get rid of his weakness andthinking his humanity is holding him back.

Mundus can be more likely assumed to have lower base power without the fruit since he only became that of a ruler once he gotthe fruit
 
Don't forget that Urizen also had Nero's Devil Bringer, which, according to V, gave him a great deal of power.
 
Honestly? Pretty sure the Saviour doesn't scale. It's very, very heavily implied in DMC4 that, just like Arkham, Sanctus was unable to use the full power of Sparda due to being "heartless". I think that the Saviour should probably instead be scaled to their pocket dimension feat, which would appear to put him at 4-A.
 
Urizen was stated to be stronger than Mundus even before the Fruit

He had Vergil's power + The Devil Bringer (a great deal of power, according to V) + The Qliphoth
 
I'm not so sure about that

He was causal in the first round, yes, but if he's in the middle of 7-B and 3-A, in a second after being serious he could have easily one shoted Sid

Doing with DT and with effort shows that he wasn't much stronger than Sid at that time
 
Yes, I agree with Dante here. I'm almost certain that Dante is far stronger than Sid, but not by so much that he'd be comparable to his 3-A keys. At the absolute most, Dante might be considered "At least *insert Sid tier here*, possibly higher" and even that might be stretching it.
 
Wait, we might actually be able to do a calc on this. Dante did manage to one-shot Sid, and if I remember correctly there is a specific AP/Durability gap for that to be possible. What feat is currently being used for Sid's tier?
 
Oh, I see. Is it not at all applicable for CRT's?
 
Only DMC5 Nero scales to 3-A feats, not DMC4 Nero.

Also the AP gap is applicable only when there are approved calcs for them, otherwise in an actual case where one-shotting happens, we can't use that gap.

You can't just randomly multiply their calc with the AP gap to scale.
 
I understand. In that case, DMC:AS Dante just being comparable in tier to Sid Abigail seems the most reasonable.
 
So, what are our conclusions on scaling? Argosax is scaled to a lot of characters both directly and indirectly, like Mundus, Dante, Sparda, along with characters who are stronger than him like Urizen, DMC5 Vergil and DMC5 Nero. The Saviour has his own feat; although it might warrant some more debate. Who else is affected?
 
DMC 2 Dante scales directly since he defeated Argosax in a 1 vs 1

Mundus scales for being equal to Argosax

Sparda DT Dante scales for defeating Mundus

DMC4 Dante and Pre-Sin DMC5 Dante scales for being stronger than his DMC2 self

Savior had Nero is his core (Sparda's Blood) and the Devil Sword Sparda, so the Savior from the fight against Dante should scale

Sparda scales for defeating Mundus

Abigail Prime scales for being comparable to Mundus

Urizen is stated to be stronger than Mundus even before the fruit, so he scales

Sin Dante, Sin Vergil and DT Nero are stronger than Urizen, so they scale
 
Sounds good then. Again though, we'll still have to wait and see if Matthew has any more rebuttals.
 
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