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Unicron Upgrade

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Okay, but we cannot assume that all Transformers continuities work the same way. If the Alternity and the Hytherion were treated as much more limited in their own stories, then that is how we should treat them as well.

What are their greatest feats?
 
Hytherion eats damaged timelines.

Also Alternity and Hytherion are both regarded as cosmic guardians that are unbound by the limits of universal streams to my knowledge.

Hytherions eat ALL damaged timelines.
 
Okay. Eating a timeline is just Low 2-C though, and eating an infinite amount at once is 2-A.
 
There are more than one Hytherion.

However I would like to think that them and the Alternity being unbound from regular universal streams would be enough to warrant keeping their ratings.
 
I do not think so. AfaIk, it has to be shown that each higher dimension is qualitatively and/or infinitely superior to the preceding one.
 
I think in Transformers sheer power can also affect one's existance, as 2-A Unicron was so powerful that the existance of other being in comparable level was nothing to him, such as the Fallen

I regards to the main topic I would prefer. it to be: 1-B (Is known that a single universe of the multiverse can contain 13 to 17 dimensions) likely Low 1-A or far higher (Stated by Vector Prime that those universes "fail to capture the uncountable infinities that exist in the Omniverse", however is unknown if he was refering to universes or dimension) the prasing on the paragraphs makes it confusing on what Vector is trying to convey.

This is obviously just my take on it.
 
I still don't know how you can confuse it with Universe when Vector Prime was asked about things outside of the multiverse and he explicitly said that the uncountable infinities and more existed outside of the multiverse.
 
So should the Alternity and the Hytherion be downgraded to Low 2-C or 2-A?
 
No, even in Crab's reply he stated about it being legit, I also responded to that above but the reply passed un-notice it seems.
 
How is them being 6 or 7 degrees of infinity beyond a universal continuum legitimate? I do not get it.
 
Because that's just how dimensions work in Transformers Ant.
 
Can you repeat the evidence in an easy to understand manner please?
 
Uncountably infinite universes is Low 1-C, so no downgrade to Tier 2 should be happening, as that on its own is obvious.

I don't see much justification for 1-B, though, so I'm curious about specifics about dimensions being higher infinities rather than just meaning more power.
 
It is enough to prove that higher dimensions are qualitatively superior to lower ones, so we do not get too strict with the definitions.
 
Promestein said:
I don't see much justification for 1-B, though, so I'm curious about specifics about dimensions being higher infinities rather than just meaning more power.
There is a 17-D statement, I also wanted to propose a second option:

KarmodF said:
I regards to the main topic I would prefer. it to be: 1-B (Is known that a single universe of the multiverse can contain 13 to 17 dimensions) likely Low 1-A or far higher (Stated by Vector Prime that those universes "fail to capture the uncountable infinities that exist in the Omniverse", however is unknown if he was refering to universes or dimension) the prasing on the paragraphs makes it confusing on what Vector is trying to convey.
 
Well the Unicron Phenomenon still encompasses far more universes than just the G1 universal cluster he has devoured in the past, and the void beyond that. So even if dimensions are bust he's at least 2 levels above just the uncountably infinite thing [void>multiverse>universal cluster (even if it's the largest one)].
 
We should be strict about the definitions. You could argue that most characters would be more powerful by being higher-dimensional by default, even if they aren't higher infinities.

The universal cluster is Low 1-C? 1-C is cool, then, at least as a lowball and if the dimensional things fall through.

Definitely not 'likely', or 'far higher'. At best, 1-B, possibly Low 1-A.
 
Low 1-A is out of the question since he doesn't talk about spatial dimensions he talks about universes. But I can't find anything more than just stating "17 dimension" without context.

If anyone has the quotes about them, it would be appropriated.
 
The universal clusters vary as some universes can be complexer than others, but they are mostly around 2-C to 2-A, 1-B comes from one of them containing 17-Dimensions actually.
 
Well, we agreed that as long as higher dimensions are treated as always being qualitatively superior to lower ones, the term "higher infinities" was not necessary to spell out, in order to be a bit more flexible, since both definitions amount to the same thing.
 
They don't. It should detail transcendence, not just 'stronger because more dimensions'.
 
Ogbunabali said:
Low 1-A is out of the question since he doesn't talk about spatial dimensions he talks about universes. But I can't find anything more than just stating "17 dimension" without context.

If anyone has the quotes about them, it would be appropriated.
He is not talking about universes, he is explicitly talking about things outside of the multiverse.
 
Well, if a higher-dimensional character is treated as always being qualitatively superior to all lower-dimensional characters in a setting, that would include ones that are lower-dimensionally infinite.

It should be treated as transcendence though, yes.
 
LordTracer said:
He is not talking about universes, he is explicitly talking about things outside of the multiverse.
And outside the Multiverse are other multiverses......


Q: Dear Vector Prime,

I know this may seem like a strange question, but what's outside the Multiverse?

.
.
A: Dear Insightful Instigator,

That is an excellent question. Outside of the Multiverse that you and I know is the Omniverse, comprised of other Multiverses. Though there are millions of realities within the Cybertronian Multiverse, there are uncountable realities, numbering in the tens of quadrillion. Occasionally, the quantum-string vibrations of one of these universes drift close enough for one of them to temporarily merge with a reality stream in my domain.

You see, not every reality has physical and psychic constants compatible with Cybertronian (or human) life. In fact, the vast majority do not. The Multiverse of realities that we can perceive is but a tiny slice of the number of realities that exist. Curiously, while every reality compatible with Cybertronian life thus far observed is also compatible with humanity, the converse is not the case. It would seem that Cybertronian-compatible dimensions are a sub-set of human-compatible dimensions. Exactly why that should be the case is unclear to me.

One could also consider the interstitial spaces between realities as being outside of the Multiverse, though this is largely a matter of semantics. This Unspace can assume many different properties, depending on the point and method of entry as well as other, more esoteric variables.

In short, reality is a strange place, with wonders and horrors beyond imagination. It is only natural for my species (and yours) to attempt to name, label, classify and clarify, build a taxonomy. But there will always be realms that defy understanding, always be mysteries left to uncover, always be exceptions to every rule.

Isn't it glorious?
 
Because they're bigger and have more cosmic influence, not necessarily because they are infinitely superior by however many times.
 
Well, if each lower-dimensional space is infinitely large in each direction, and higher dimensions are treated as always being a transcendent state that is qualitatively superior anyway, that amounts to the same thing as far as I am concerned.

Very few fictions are specific enough to mention higher infinities, so I think that we should use the intended meaning for each setting.
 
@Prom

Aside from the need of higher-infinite statements, which would obviously need to research, do you agree with 1-B possibly Low 1-A.
 
It doesn't amount to the same thing and 'stronger' does not mean 'transcendent'. A lower-dimensional being may not encompass the entirety of that lower-dimensional space, just as we are not stretched out infinitely.

I do not agree with 1-B. I'd go with Low 1-C or 1-C.
 
Well, I meant ones that are qualitatively superior to lower-dimensional space in its entirety. I just think that we should analyse the intentions of a work, not just if it specifically compares higher dimensions with higher infinities, as that level of spelled out specifics is quite rare.
 
@Ogbunabali

And how does any of that show Vector Prime was talking about universes in referring to things outside of the multiverse? Because if anything, I see that helping my point.

And once again, immediately after referring to the seventeen spatial dimensions, VP mentions there being uncountable infinities, and even after that he says all that and more exists outside of the multiverse. It makes far more sense, contextually, for him to be referring to dimensions, especially when universes are already shown to be the standard 4-D space-time continuum.
 
And why exactly is that when Vector Prime stated there were uncountable infinities outside of the multiverse, immediately after mentioning the seventeen dimensions, and Unicron destroyed literally everything, leaving only the Void?
 
I agree that if the dimensions are superior in an not insignificant size, it should qualify.

They're at least Low 1-C that's for sure, but I could agree with possibly/likely 1-B (or outright if someone provides quotes). There's this quote that kinda alludes to it.

Shortly after, he was tasked by... well, by me... to find some documents. These diagrams were the key to birthing the Alternity's successor. The Planicrons—the cosmic beings of the two-dimensional Cybertron—had reached out into the ether and found me, utilizing my unique biology to inform me without words what was needed for them to Transform and Transcend. Astonishingly, the Timaeus Project—an amazing example of the Power of Industry, the incredible synergy between advanced Cybertronian technology and human inspiration and tenacity—had created exactly what the Planicrons needed, but they lost track due to the Quantum Lock. Primal's keen insight allowed him to help locate the ultimate pinnacle of Human/Cybertronian technology: the blueprint of a Critias Gate. With the critical gate located, Primal left to join the final battle against Megatherion, to give the Planicrons time to pass through the Gate and evolve themselves into higher-dimensional life forms. Primal and his Protectors, and Ex-Alternities, struck down Megatron's Auto-Avatars, weakening Megatherion enough for the evolved Planicrons to defeat the evil Megatron Aggregate. So it was that the changing of the guard of the multiversal shepherds was accomplished.
Either way Low 1-A has no basis.
 
Alternium (Òé¬Òâ½Òé┐ÒâïÒéªÒâá Orutaniumu) is a material that resonates with higher dimensions. Its crystalline lattice structure is capable of storing memories and even entire life-forces of sentient beings. Only a fraction of its true immensity is visible to lower-dimensional beings, appearing to be a simple metal. Discovered by the Timaeus Project, it played a role in the origin of the manifold beings known as the Alternity, due to the fusion of the substance with Cybertronian life. It is the primary substance making up the bodies of the Alternity as well as that of the great beast Hytherion. When fashioned into a hyper-frame, alternium allows the Alternity to control an auto-avatar and thus interact with lower dimensions.

A hyper-frame is a component of the larger mechanical constructs known as auto-avatars. It is composed of the dimensionally-resonant material Alternium, the same substance that makes up the higher-dimensional bodies of the Alternity. It is a crucial component of an auto-avatar, as its resonance connects the vessel with the consciousness of the being that is controlling it. Without a hyper-frame, an auto-avatar would be essentially inert.

Dunno how much this helps.
 
I dunno if any of this concretely establishes higher infinities, but you could definitely argue for it.
 
@Crabwhale

I would appreciate if you or somebody else could summarise the arguments for and against different ratings for Unicron and the Alternity at the moment.
 
Q: What other sort of dimensions and realities exist outside of the Multiverse? What are they like, and who resides there?

A: Imagine the strangest inhabited universe you can conceive of, places where gravity operates linearly and electromagnetism by the inverse cubed rule and topology has 13 basic dimensions instead of 17. How alien it must be. Then ponder the wildest universes those beings could articulate. Then realize that even these musings fail to capture the uncountable infinities that exist in the Omniverse. That and more, much more, is what exists outside the Multiverse.

There is far more pointing to Vector Prime referring to dimensions than universes, especially when universes are collected in universal clusters, which are inside the multiverse.
 
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