Undertale's Durability Negating Soul Manipulation: Does it one-shot those without Resistance to Soul Manipulation?

[Imaginym]

Following extensive discussion here, it was concluded there should be a CRT about this.

The topic is as as the title asks: Undertale's Durability Negating Soul Manipulation: Does it one-shot those without Resistance to Soul Manipulation?

This topic had already briefly been gone over in a recent Undertale Content Revision Thread: https://vsbattles.com/threads/undertale-soul-manipulation-just-or-unjust-removal.110409/

"Conclusion
With the points in the previous thread, I don't really see how they're valid. This is basically just me looking for a counterargument here, however if this thread somehow results in dura neg being added back then I'd like to note that I do not believe it to be a one-shot like it was treated before. It's more akin to dealing damage regardless of durability." - From the opening post of the revision.

"There’s a giant stack of evidence supporting that you need to harm the physical body, and next to no evidence that you don’t. Furthermore, there’s no evidence that every monster has potentially one-shottable soulhax + very good resistance rather than just... very poor soulhax not capable of one-shotting and varying levels of minor resistance." - Partial quote of Moritzva, a Staff Member.

"Undertale soul manipulation should be durability negation, as soul manipulation almost always is. Whether or not it one-shots a soul is a different discussion. The bottom line is that it bypasses the physical body, aka, their traditional durability." - Quote of FinePoint's post, which went seemingly uncontested in that revision thread.

Said one-shotting, was also, in part, the basis for several match removals, so it's important to know If said removals were in error or not.

Supposing it is applicable, to who?

Many Undertale characters utilize attacks with multiple projectiles or forms of attacks, which leads me to question why they'd need to use so many attacks at once, ensuring hits aside, if they one-shot with a single hit from any attack.... But on the other hand, all Undertale characters have Resistance to Soul Manipulation.

& then there's characters like Sans, supposedly the weakest monster in The Underground. Considering he doesn't fight physically, & a lot of monsters, if not all of them, fight using magic, isn't it presumable Sans's weakness refers to his magical attacks.
Sans even has his own Durability Negation, always hitting for a fixed 1 damage per attack, even against Chara/Frisk. Someone super weak, doing low damage even with durability negation
He asks why people don't use their strongest attacks more often, & he by far, uses the greatest quantity & speed of projectiles. If Sans was strong enough to one-shot, even ignoring that he has Durability Negation that works against Chara/Frisk, why would he go for such huge quantities of attacks, & stuff like gradual additional damage via Karma, rather than just omnidirectional AoE attacks?

& we've also never seen a character with no Resistance to Soul Manipulation in Undertale, thus we get the question of: How much protection does the Resistance to Soul Manipulation actually provide?
If we don't know this, then how do we know that, without the Resistance's reduction to the damage, it's sufficient to one-shot?

The Durability Negation page says:
"The ability that allows users to damage the target, regardless of its durability. In particular, enables causing serious damage to a very strong opponent, even in the absence of large attack potency. A good example of ignoring the strength would be a laser, which at negligible attack potency, easily cuts through thick steel sheets."
https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Soul_Manipulation
& Soul Manipulation?
"Those who manipulate souls, can bypass conventional durability. It can be resisted only by the strength of the soul. However, such attacks are effective only on those who have souls. Also, if for some reason soul manipulation fails, then this ability is completely futile."

Resistance doesn't mention anything about being one-shotted by stuff you don't resist.

& Undertale's own 'verse page doesn't mention anything about UT's Soul Manipulation enabling one-shots.

One-Shot doesn't seem to say much on the matter, either.


It's definitely theoretically possible for Soul Manipulation to 'cause one-shots. But as is, UT's a 'verse where we don't know if that's the case. In part because of everyone having Resistance to Soul Manipulation, from Asgore, one of the last bosses, to Froggit, one of the first enemies, & seemingly even the humans.
Again, I'm not saying remove Resistance to Soul Manipulation from UT.
But said Resistance makes how potent their Soul Manipulation is ambigous, & from what I've seen, people haven't agreed on UT characters one-shotting with their Soul Manipulation.
What's the answer to 100 HP minus an amount equal to 50 plus or minus an unknown amount?
How devastating to an average soul without Resistance to Soul Manipulation is an UT character's attack, & how do we know this if no character in UT is average without Resistance to Soul Manipulation?
& if they can one shot such Souls, especially if there are such beings, why do monsters use bullet hell types of attacks, especially if most of them are peaceful & don't fight amongst each other, let alone regularly? (& probably survive most such conflicts with each other.)


Hopefully this CRT isn't too bad, & goes well. Thank you, all, for any input given.

 

[Arcker123]

Does soul hax one shot by default

 

[Agnaa]

I 100% agree with soul manip not one-shotting by default. I know another verse with similar soul attacks that don't one-shot, it seems ludicrous to assume that all of these characters have unmentioned resistance instead of just saying that it doesn't one-shot.

No hax should be assumed to one-shot like this without the fiction itself demonstrating that, really.

I can see some legitimate arguments for UT characters getting resistance via having more HP/Def, but regardless, one-shots should not be assumed.

 

[Arcker123]

Does this come from the assumption that souls don't have durability unless shown?

 

[Imaginym]

I 100% agree with soul manip not one-shotting by default. I know another verse with similar soul attacks that don't one-shot, it seems ludicrous to assume that all of these characters have unmentioned resistance instead of just saying that it doesn't one-shot.

No hax should be assumed to one-shot like this without the fiction itself demonstrating that, really.

I can see some legitimate arguments for UT characters getting resistance via having more HP/Def, but regardless, one-shots should not be assumed.

Based on Froggit's, at least, their resistance isn't unmentioned, in that it is on their profiles. Resistance to SOUL Manipulation (Can take SOUL attacks as physical ones)

 

[Agnaa]

Does this come from the assumption that souls don't have durability unless shown?

It comes from the assumption that attacks that don't one-shot anyone probably just don't one-shot, instead of everyone having secret unmentioned resistance to the attack that secretly one-shots.

 

[Arcker123]

It comes from the assumption that attacks that don't one-shot anyone probably just don't one-shot, instead of everyone having secret unmentioned resistance to the attack that secretly one-shots.

I was referring to the argument of soul hax resistance but this seems agreeable

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Soul manip tends to dura-neg by default, it certainly doesn't one-shot unless proven to do so.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

This makes sense

 

[StrymULTRA]

I thought about this, and my solution is to assume that the "standard SOUL", aka the non-UT one that didn't show "better resistance" to SOUL attacks, to have the same STATs as LV 1 Frisk's (aka 10 in both ATK and DEF), as is a human SOUL like any other human, and didn't get boosts, so is the safest assumption for non-UT SOULs due of the nature of them.

However, monsters stronger than LV 1 Frisk should get instead "Minor Resistance to SOUL Attacks (Can take SOUL Attacks with less damage than Minimal Determination Frisk)".

 

[Imaginym]

This makes sense

The thread is somewhat meant as a question of what to establish regarding IF UT characters should or shouldn't one-shot nonresistant characters via Soul Manipulation. I don't want to assume when you could potentially be of the opposite position, so may I ask you to clarify what you mean, please?

 

[Thelastmlg]

Soul attacks are the only type that don't one shoot, removing or erasing souls one shot normally, so i agree.

 

[Antoniofer]

Durability negation doesn't necessary one shot, their effectiveness is simply independent of durability; there's also a difference between manipulating the soul and damaging the soul.

 

[Thelastmlg]

Both fall under soul manipulation, which is my point, all the other offensive types of soul manipulation one shot unless you have a resistance to it, except soul damaging.

 

[Imaginym]

Durability negation doesn't necessary one shot, their effectiveness is simply independent of durability; there's also a difference between manipulating the soul and damaging the soul.

Are Undertale characters characters that use their Soul Manipulation to damage souls?

 

[StrymULTRA]

Are Undertale characters characters that use their Soul Manipulation to damage souls?

Ye, any attack of theirs inflicts damage to the SOUL, and thus bypassing physical defense.

I thought about this, and my solution is to assume that the "standard SOUL", aka the non-UT one that didn't show "better resistance" to SOUL attacks, to have the same STATs as LV 1 Frisk's (aka 10 in both ATK and DEF), as is a human SOUL like any other human, and didn't get boosts, so is the safest assumption for non-UT SOULs due of the nature of them.

However, monsters stronger than LV 1 Frisk should get instead "Minor Resistance to SOUL Attacks (Can take SOUL Attacks with less damage than Minimal Determination Frisk)".

I'd like to hear an opinion on this proposal to avoid future confusions in future threads

 

[FinePoint]

The problem with Soul Manipulation and Durability Negation in general is that it doesn't follow traditional logic.
That is, when someone is shot in the head, or somewhere vital, they die.
If they're "shot in the soul", does it have weak spots? Is that also a guaranteed death on a "normal" soul? Can a soul sustain damage in a traditional sense, or is a soul a singular point which is either destroyed or not destroyed?

These uncertainties simply can't be explained objectively across all verses, and so an assumption must be made. In accordance with NLF, I believe it's much fairer to assume that a soul shouldn't be one-shot by soul manipulation unless that specific manipulation is known to one-shot "normal" souls, or deal enough damage to characters above superhuman levels that it could reasonably be concluded that a much weaker soul could die from such damage.

We shouldn't universally nerf an entire verse just because it doesn't want to get metaphysical and define what a soul is. Instead, we should look to the tier of characters that the soul manipulation in question affects, and treat the soul as if it was an extension of the character in question. That is, if soul manipulation does significant damage to a Tier 4 character, it would be reasonable to assume it might one-shot Tier 5 and below characters, or that it would do less damage to characters Tier 3 and above, assuming their soul simply isn't mentioned.

In addition, like most powers, it should also be considered on a case-by-case basis. If, alternatively, there's a verse where soul manipulation consistently one-shots, even those stronger than its user, than we can use that as a basis for that character specifically.

 

[Moritzva]

It does not one-shot, and that's about all I have to say. I have little good will and positive outlook on the unsupported nature of Undertale durability negation in-general, but alas.

 

[Arcker123]

Out of curiosity would this apply to most forms of soul hax

 

[Moritzva]

Not typically. Most soulhax that I, at least, see in media, all clearly represent instantly killing people, hence why it's assumed that it's a standard to think so. It just so happens that most soulhax in media does tend to be a one-shot.

 

[Agnaa]

I thought about this, and my solution is to assume that the "standard SOUL", aka the non-UT one that didn't show "better resistance" to SOUL attacks, to have the same STATs as LV 1 Frisk's (aka 10 in both ATK and DEF), as is a human SOUL like any other human, and didn't get boosts, so is the safest assumption for non-UT SOULs due of the nature of them.

However, monsters stronger than LV 1 Frisk should get instead "Minor Resistance to SOUL Attacks (Can take SOUL Attacks with less damage than Minimal Determination Frisk)".

I'm pretty fine with this. The only contention I could levy is that we don't really see how well monsters tank SOUL attacks, as Frisk doesn't use them. Perhaps their stats can't really be equalized to Frisk's stats, as they're attacking in different ways and defending against different attacks.

But I still wouldn't be super against this being how we treat it.

 

[Imaginym]

I'd question it a little. On one extreme, Frisk doesn't seem like your average human (Lots of fiction portrays children as inferior to adults.), & on the other, they seem to be exceptional. Aren't they part of some legend about a Fallen Human or 7 Fallen Humans? Not to mention, UT humans are noted as being exceptionally strong compared to monsters. I'm unsure that UT humans, & by extension, Frisk, can be considered "average" or "ordinary" compared to typical humans.

Regarding statistics, do we consider Frisk's in-game statistics valid to use?

& also, more a technicality, but I don't think Frisk's stats are ideal for use as comparison; Frisk's tier increases with their Determination. Independent of their equipment, Frisk fighting Tier 2 Asriel Dreemurr (Or at least, surviving, as well as regenerating from attacks from Asriel; The latter, I presume is what the "But it refused" part is.) at the end of the True Pacifist Run will have the same 20 HP, 10 ATK & DEF, LVL 1 & Experience 0 as they did at the start.

Without equipment, Frisk's stats don't change, unless they go Neutral or Genocide... but those routes, & the statistics increases themselves are more Chara's thing (Supported by dialogue, IIRC.) rather than Frisk's. Is Chara an average enough human (soul) for our purposes?

I'm noit sure how problematic this is, but I'd like to think our approach can be improved. I just wish I better knew how.

 

[ShionAH]

Frisk, can be considered "average" or "ordinary" compared to typical humans.

So I am not good at this stuff but isn’t determination the strongest soul type?
I feel like I misunderstood this

 

[Imaginym]

So I am not good at this stuff but isn’t determination the strongest soul type?
I feel like I misunderstood this

I feel like you misunderstood this as well.
The full sentence of mine, that you quoted a part of, is: "I'm unsure that UT humans, & by extension, Frisk, can be considered "average" or "ordinary" compared to typical humans."
Like you seem to, I also have doubts the idea of Frisk being "average"/"ordinary" compared to typical humans.