Undertale - Vulkins Lightning

[Austrian-Man-Meat]

The lightning does not even come close to firing at a 360 degree angle. Watch the gif, again.

It's still shooting lightning in a entirely different manner than how actual cloud to ground lightning does if the lightning bolts Vulkin summoned where akin to those of Asriels's then I would be inclined to give it the benefit of the doubt. Also just because it displays real magma does not mean we should automatically give the lightning the benefit of the doubt.

Also the bullets stuff was me comparing how the cloud expelled multiple bolts at a similar rate to a gun expelling multple bullets coming out from a gun. Not me saying it's bullets therefore not real lightning. The cloud smiling and how the lightning is expelled from the cloud is the thing which convinces me. Perhaps the opinion of a calc group member (particularly DT) may save us pointless bickering and allow us to get straight into a yes or no answer, what say you?

 

[Talonmask]

Did Vulcan's lightning come from a natural non-magical cloud?

Read the thread.

 

[Aparajita]

Literally everything in Undertale is magical (everything in the Underground, at least), but magic is treated as part of science (i.e. the science of creating robots is described as merging metal and magic).

However, yes, Vulkin's lightning comes from a pyrocumulus cloud.

So, they're nothing assuming that the lightning is not magical in nature?

What is Frisk's level of determination at this point in time?

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Nearing Asgore levels, as this is post Undyne.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

It's still shooting lightning in a entirely different manner than how actual cloud to ground lightning does if the lightning bolts Vulkin summoned where akin to those of Asriels's then I would be inclined to give it the benefit of the doubt. Also just because it displays real magma does not mean we should automatically give the lightning the benefit of the doubt.

Also the bullets stuff was me comparing how the cloud expelled multiple bolts at a similar rate to a gun expelling multple bullets coming out from a gun. Not me saying it's bullets therefore not real lightning. The cloud smiling and how the lightning is expelled from the cloud is the thing which convinces me. Perhaps the opinion of a calc group member (particularly DT) may save us pointless bickering and allow us to get straight into a yes or no answer, what say you?

Several of those lightning strikes are very, very similar to what Vulkin does, except, again, Vulkin's are disconnected for battle reasons. Look at the way the bolts branch.

I know, but I am pointing out that many people like to use the "bullet" excuse to say nothing in Undertale is quantifiable. Again, the cloud is smiling because Vulkin made it smile. Everything monsters do in Undertale is an extension of themselves, hence why they get weaker or stronger depending on if they want to fight or not.

I'm really not sure the opinion of a calc group member holds more water than that of any other staff member for this particular discussion, as it is not about a calc. It is about the game itself, which runs on specific principles I have already mentioned.

 

[Aparajita]

Nearing Asgore levels, as this is post Undyne.

So this is natural lightning that is dealing damage Town level creatures?

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

So this is natural lightning that is dealing damage Town level creatures?

No. It is lightning from a Small Town level source dealing damage to a Small Town/Town level character.

 

[Lina_Shields]

Let's read this article: Dirty Lightning

• A dirty thunderstorm/volcaning lightning is basically lightning that is produced from a volcanic cloud.

• A volcanic lightning is caused when electrical charges are generated via collision of rock fragments, ash, ice, and other stuff. This produces static charges inside the cloud.

Here is a quote said about these thunderstorms below:

Martin A. Uma wrote
As the plume started going downwind, it seemed to have a life of its own and produced some 300 more or less normal [lightning bolts]... The implication is that it has produced more charge than it started with. Otherwise [the plume] couldn't continue to make lightning.
This means that in a volcanic cloud, numerous lightning bolts (~300) are formed in the clouds, and are fired down upon the ground.

As for how this relates to Vulkin, this means that when Vulkin fires those multiple mini lightning bolts that spread about, it refers to how actual volcanic lightning clouds are able to produce numerous lightning bolts, as stated in the quote above.

As for the smiling cloud, I believe we count Lakitu's smiling cloud and lightning counts as an actual cloud-to-ground lightning feat, and we get Mario's MHS+ reaction speed from this.

As for my stance on this, Azzy covered most of the statements that I wanted to say.

Not supported.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Just for clarification, I'm going to post this example again, because I don't know how many people saw it, last time.

"Look at Mettaton. When you first encounter him in the quiz show and get a wrong answer, he hits you with a bolt of electricity.Later, during the actual battle with Mettaton EX, he also fires bolts of electricity as attacks, though this time they are more similar in appearance to Vulkin's. So what seems like the more likely option here? That Mettaton lost the ability to shoot actual electiricty and is now just firing "magic bullets", or that because you're now in an actual battle, him firing electricity is now just represented in a more stylistic manner which can more easily stack with other attacks and projectiles on screen?"

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

snip

^

Literally this.

 

[LordXcano]

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Lightning_dodging_feats

Going by this page...

• Cloud-to-ground lightning are considered to be real lightning as long there is nothing suggesting otherwise.

As we have seen, the lightning does not travel in a continuous bolt like real lightning, the cloud is not as large as a pyrocumulus and the aforementioned cloud is a living(?) being, not an actual cloud.

• Lightning directly produced by a character is only considered as real lightning if it has demonstrated some properties real lightning has. Some examples are: making muscles of hit beings contract, having an (electro)magnetic field, being shown to actually move with a speed similar to lightning, flowing through conducting materials, the character being able to manipulate real electricity or electromagnetism in general, generating ozone or causing electrolysis.

This is most relevant, as the lightning is directly produced by Vulkin. As seen here, Vulkin meets absolutely none of these criteria.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

This is most relevant, as the lightning is directly produced by Vulkin. As seen here, Vulkin meets absolutely none of these criteria.

No, the lightning is produced by a pyrocumulus cloud, which was produced by Vulkin. The step inbetween is pretty important, in this case. If Vulkin directly shot lightning out of its head, this would be a different discussion, altogether.

 

[Aparajita]

This is most relevant, as the lightning is directly produced by Vulkin. As seen here, Vulkin meets absolutely none of these criteria.

This.

 

[LordXcano]

No, the lightning is produced by a pyrocumulus cloud, which was produced by Vulkin. The step inbetween is pretty important, in this case. If Vulkin directly shot lightning out of its head, this would be a different discussion, altogether.

The cloud has a face though and unless Vulkin has life creation as well that cloud must be apart of it. A character than can turn into a cloud and shoot lightning still has to meet the criteria as the lightning is still being produced by them.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

The cloud has a face though and unless Vulkin has life creation as well that cloud must be apart of it. A character than can turn into a cloud and shoot lightning still has to meet the criteria as the lightning is still being produced by them.

You are assuming the cloud is alive because it has a face pattern on it. The face never changes, and is almost certainly just a design as opposed to a way to symbolize it being alive. The lightning also never changes its trajectory to home in on Frisk. It is sporadic.

If a sorcerer uses his magic to create a storm, and that storm has clouds which produce lightning, said lightning is not the direct creation of the sorcerer. He is indirectly responsible. In cases like this, that is a massive difference.

 

[A_Sword_Dancer]

^ Even if that sorceror decides to draw a face on the cloud, it's still a real cloud.

 

[Thebluedash]

How about it not changing facial structure is just a design as opposed to a way to symbolize it being not alive.

 

[Aparajita]

How about it not changing facial structure is just a design as opposed to a way to symbolize it being not alive.

Or the game just has poor funding and can't afford to animate every scene.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

How about it not changing facial structure is just a design as opposed to a way to symbolize it being not alive.

And what suggests it is alive, though? To my knowledge, if something living is created via magic (such as Froggit's flies), it functions as such.

 

[Aparajita]

^ Even if that sorceror decides to draw a face on the cloud, it's still a real cloud.

Except, a real* cloud isn't made of physical material where a face could take form. A magical cloud, however, can.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Except, a real* cloud isn't made of physical material where a face could take form. A magical cloud, however, can.

...Clouds can indeed have actual patterns on them. They're physical collections of water vapor and ice crystals (and volcanic ash, in pyrocumulus' cases).

 

[Aparajita]

Except the cloud was made by magical means and there's no reason to assume that magical cloud produces natural, non-magical lightning.

Imo, the thread is going around in circles, so i'm going to stay off it until more people comment.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Again, it's still a pyrocumulus cloud produced by a volcano monster who also makes magma in its body. Every single thing in the Underground in partially magical. That doesn't stop it from having actual quantifiable feats, since magic is just considered another facet of science and the natural world in Undertale, as opposed to something unnatural.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

This seems to be a circular argument. If no one else has anything new to say, this should be closed.

 

[Thebluedash]

This seems to be a circular argument. If no one else has anything new to say, this should be closed.

Close it? We're still discussing it.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

It's going back and forth. The only arguments I've been seeing these last few posts are "it's a pyrocumulus cloud" and "there's a smile on the cloud" with the occasional "the lightning bolts spread out". All of these were stated from the beginning, and the conclusion hasn't been made from those.

 

[A_Sword_Dancer]

It's going back and forth. The only arguments I've been seeing these last few posts are "it's a pyrocumulus cloud" and "there's a smile on the cloud" with the occasional "the lightning bolts spread out". All of these were stated from the beginning, and the conclusion hasn't been made from those.

Actually the comment about metatons electical attacks in battle and outside of battle is very relevant but people are just glossing over it for some reason.

 

[Thebluedash]

It's going back and forth. The only arguments I've been seeing these last few posts are "it's a pyrocumulus cloud" and "there's a smile on the cloud" with the occasional "the lightning bolts spread out". All of these were stated from the beginning, and the conclusion hasn't been made from those.

No conclusion, doesn't mean a closed thread yes? We're waiting for responses from certain users.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

I'd respect Saikou's opinion on all of this, since he is probably as familiar with the verse as I am, which is kinda an important thing, here.

 

[The_Everlasting]

I'd respect Saikou's opinion on all of this, since he is probably as familiar with the verse as I am, which is kinda an important thing, here.

He's on vacation and won't be back until Tuesday IIRC.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

He's on vacation and won't be back until Tuesday IIRC.

Ah. I see.

Then I guess in the meantime, I'd settle for a legit answer to the Mettaton question as opposed to flat out having it ignored. lol

 

[Thebluedash]

I mean Saikou is online on Skype.

 

[The_Everlasting]

I mean Saikou is online on Skype.

He often forgets to go offline from what I've seen.

 

[Verivici]

blah blah blah blah

No one is assuming it definintely absolutely is

And yet, literally all the pages are based on the assumption that it is, with the opposing evidence/interpretation not even MENTIONED.

People are saying it's lightning because everything about the attack and how it's created points to it being lightning

Except no. It is being produced by a happy sentient mini-volcano that is blatantly a massively stylized cartoony character, and it producing lightning as a reference to the fact that volcanoes produce lightning is nothing more than a cute reference to the original thing, ala TP having "impressive wingspan" and "cute winglets".

Maybe our brains work completely differently. I quite simply cannot accept a somewhat thin iced reference to lightning as 100% definite certainty, like you, but rather merely as a possibility.

I've also already pointed out that Vulkin does burn things and have real magma. You are using a static overworld sprite to assume that it doesn't despite text and battle saying otherwise.

The hot dog is evidence for Vulkin being a cartoony, toon-force esque character, fitting with the jokey, Mother-style nature of the game.

ÔùïÔùïÔùïÔùï

Saikou has no particular knowledge about when a lightning bolt is a real lightning bolt and when it isn't, any more than they do about calc stacking.

We should ask DT about this. He knows better than any of us.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Vulkin's Lightning is real lightning. Moving on.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

And yet, literally all the pages are based on the assumption that it is, with the opposing evidence/interpretation not even MENTIONED.

Except no. It is being produced by a happy sentient mini-volcano that is blatantly a massively stylized cartoony character, and it producing lightning as a reference to the fact that volcanoes produce lightning is nothing more than a cute reference to the original thing, ala TP having "impressive wingspan" and "cute winglets".

Maybe our brains work completely differently. I quite simply cannot accept a somewhat thin iced reference to lightning as 100% definite certainty, like you, but rather merely as a possibility.

The hot dog is evidence for Vulkin being a cartoony, toon-force esque character, fitting with the jokey, Mother-style nature of the game.

ÔùïÔùïÔùïÔùï

Saikou has no particular knowledge about when a lightning bolt is a real lightning bolt and when it isn't, any more than they do about calc stacking.

We should ask DT about this. He knows better than any of us.

1. It's not an assumption. I've explained numerous times in this thread alone why it's not an assumption.

2. It's not being produced by a volcano. It is being produced by a cloud that said volcano produced. This is INCREDIBLY important in cases like this and intentionally ignoring it will not make it go away.

3. lol wat? You said Vulkin shouldn't function like a real volcano because it doesn't burn the hot dog, but I pointed out why this is false. Your exact words were, "Everything in undertale tends to be a cartoonish facsimile of the real thing, like tiny Tsunderplane and Vulkin being able to hold a hot dog in its crown without the lava burning it up". It does in fact burn things (it putting the hot dog in its head is literally eating it) and the game makes explicit reference to this. Again, arguments of "the game is cartoony" or "magic lol" don't make this any less true.

4. The opinion of someone familiar with the game is important here because all the reasons for it not functioning like real lightning have come from fallacious statements, things completely besides the point, and a misunderstanding of the game's universe. I have addressed this repeatedly, and brought up the Mettaton example, which, again, everyone seems to have ******* ignored. Frankly, most of the arguments for this downgrade have either come from people who don't know shit about how the verse works or have the most basic surface level understanding, and I'm finding it really tiresome to bring up counterarguments to simply have them ignored in favor of statements such as "it has a face", which have no value whatsoever. Lina even took the time to explain the process of dirty lightning and how it relates to Vulki, and this too was ignored. All the qualms in this thread have been addressed, and stating them over and over and over doesn't make the evidence for the lightning being lightning go away.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Quoting this shit again, because it was ignored twice despite addressing the "it's cartoony so not real lightning" argument.

"Look at Mettaton. When you first encounter him in the quiz show and get a wrong answer, he hits you with a bolt of electricity.Later, during the actual battle with Mettaton EX, he also fires bolts of electricity as attacks, though this time they are more similar in appearance to Vulkin's. So what seems like the more likely option here? That Mettaton lost the ability to shoot actual electiricty and is now just firing "magic bullets", or that because you're now in an actual battle, him firing electricity is now just represented in a more stylistic manner which can more easily stack with other attacks and projectiles on screen?"

 

[Verivici]

Jesus christ, calm down.

I don't see any reason why we shouldn't ask DT about this, considering he, you know, WROTE the lightning dodging feats page.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

I'll "calm down" when people actually look at the shit that's been posted instead of just ignoring it and acting like the people who posted it never even brought it up. Having points ignored again and again and never even mentioned is a HUGE pet peeve.

You can ask DT about this, but the only genuine question you'd have any good asking him as a calc member is going to be "is dirty lightning real cloud to ground lightning?", because as Lina and I have repeatedly brought up, dirty lightning is very, very clearly what is being produced.

 

[Austrian-Man-Meat]

The speed of electricity =/= speed of CTG lightning @Azazoth

The amount of mass particles he (Vulkin) would have to carry is so big in amount that he would have to be a walking mega volcano. So the only options here are A Vulkin is a mega volcano or B magic @Lina