Undertale: Undying downgrade.

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Well it certainly ain't bloodlust that did 2-B for obvious reasons. And LV isn't the reason either, most likely.

Yeah but again they don't have to hold back dura. They just hold back their DT. They aren't that determined to kill poor Asgore.

I can..? Stats aren't affected by DT. Or bloodlust. Level 1 can fight Infinite ATK Asriel. ATK is most certainly "base" power.

The feat can be done without the True Knife. And tbh most players would use the frying pan instead of the True Knife, due to added effects.

They aren't. Most characters aren't even awar of its existence, they can only interact with the world using True Reset or an host like Frisk.

 

[MarvelFanatic119]

No, LV is something that is definitely needed in Genocide.

Frisk just uses pure Determination only

Chara uses LV and EXP (something that can't be ignored or removed as that will always be gained after killing a monster), their Bloodlust and Determination. They have the desire to become stronger and LV and EXP helps a lot for them, not Frisk.

Frisk does not use LV, EXP, or Bloodlust.

Frisk's Durability is based on their Determination. Physically on their own they are only a small child. Which is we have multiple keys for their AP and Durability.

Just because it can done without it, does not mean Chara would not use it. The Real Knife and the Locket offer the best ATK and DEF which Chara would use due to their desire to gain more power. The only reason people use the Frying Pan is because of the Sans Fight. However, after a while you can recognize Sans' attack patterns if you fight him long enough. You can even dodge all of his attacks wothout getting damaged.

And again, they're found exclusively in the Genocide route and not anywhere else and not to mention Chara says how satisfied they are when equipping them. If these things were found anywhere else, I would agree, but since they at found only on the Genocide Route, where it's Chara and not Frisk, it's definitely meant for Chara only.

The Player is the one deciding which Route to take, whether or not to RESET the world and are the ones manipulating the spacetime continuum by constantly using the SAVE and LOAD function. They mold the world as they see fit, until Chara becomes powerful enough to rebel and take their SOUL.

 

[UltraSans101]

Is Chara's LV actually 20? He does say that the stats rising is him, but it's still unknown what his stats are.


Chara =/= Frisk


At the end of the Genocide route, Chara one shots the entire game. The game is referred to as world. However, it's the whole entire thing. Meaning every timeline possible. This feat tops every other feat for every other character.


LV 20 Frisk = 99 Attack 99 Defence, same with Undyne.


However, the following characters do not kill Frisk in one shot:

Undyne The Undying

Sans

Omega Flowey

Asriel Dreemurr


2 of these characters on this wiki are listed higher than Chara, although Chara manages to kill Frisk in one shot.

Meaning if Omega Flowey and Asriel are 2A, then Chara should be a 2A along side them.


Going back to the Undyne argument, 2B seems an exaggeration. If Chara has the same LV as Undyne The Undying, then why didn't Undyne kill Frisk in one shot?

 

[MarvelFanatic119]

You can no longer get any EXP after killing Sans. Chara never said they increased their stats after that, they said they reached the "absolute".

Obviously, that's what I've been saying this whole time.

Except for Omega Flowey (did the same thing, his LV is 9999 while Chara is LV 20), Asriel (seven Human SOULs, Chara only has two), the Annoying Dog (Cannot be removed no matter what happens to the game, created the whole game by barking alone), Max Determination Frisk (Asriel couldn't get rid of them no matter what he tried) and possibly Gaster (is in a constant state of existence and non existence, due to being scattered across the timelines, his in game stats put him above Omega Flowey).

Undyne the Undying does not appear in Neutral or Pacifist, only Genocide, where Chara is, NOT Frisk. They only fight Regular Undyne.

LV 20 Frisk =/= LV 20 Chara

Frisk lacks the Bloodlust to kill someone unlike Chara, making LV and EXP not very effective for Frisk since they hold back. You can't even get a LV 20 Frisk in Pacifist or Neutral.


Sans never fights Frisk, ONLY Chara. Sans wouldn't be able to beat due to their Determination (like Chara) and they have no EXP unlike Chara, so KR is useless. Again, people need to stop comparing the Three Routes like their one and the same, THEY'RE NOT.

Omega Flowey was just playing around with Frisk. He was constantly killing them and waiting for them to come back. He made that pretty clear in Hus fight he was just toying with Frisk the whole fight to make them think he had a chance. To prove his point he even kills them several times after the fight to show how easy it would be to kill them over and over.

Frisk's Determination maxed out when confronting Asriel. Asriel COULD kill them, they just keep coming back due to their High Determination. Asriel couldn't get rid of them permamently. Same problem Frisk has, they can't hurt Asriel either for the same reasons.

Uh, Chara never kills Frisk. They attack the Player. Chara just possesses Frisk. That's it.

Wonky and incorrect scaling. Omega Flowey does the same feat and even has the power to restore the game (though the Six SOULs did that against his will) and Asriel is FAR more powerful than OF. The only reason he didn't was because he focused more on straight up killing Frisk. Chara needed TWO SOULs (Frisk's and the Player's) to do so.

Because that was Regular Undyne? Not Undying?

This thread is just going in circles now.

 

[Stevethebarbarian]

What you've been talking about for weeks on end is why Chara is able to one-shot monsters, and that the difference between these reasons is why NEO and Undying can't scale to them.

But you're missing the point.

The point is, even if MONSTERS are weakened by killing intent, the multiverse itself isn't. That means that if Chara destroyed the multiverse (with 99 AK), than it takes 99 AK to destroy the multiverse.

Therefore, if Undyne has 99 AK, she's strong enough to destroy the multiverse. I don't see how ASGORE, NEO, or Sans have anything to do with this. Yes, base Undyne was one-shot by Chara because of their monumental DETERMINATION and killing intent. That is all the more proof that Undying is matching Chara via sheer power; despite Chara's absurdly powerful attacks, she still survived dozens of them, and is portrayed as being far stronger than Chara at that point in the game.

This seems pretty cut-and-dry to me. I'm not sure about NEO being 2-C or whatever just because he's a human eradiaction device, but it seems pretty simple that Undying should scale to Chara.

 

[Archnyx]

Personally, I too think Undyne's tier should be reevaluated.

One thing that should be taken into account is the NATURE of her attacks. It was stated that monster are magical beings and that their attacks are of the same kind. This magic directly affects the person's soul. Going by that, you cannot equate her and Frisk's attack as they are not of the same nature.

Further discussion should bear this in mind.

Note that this doesn't really hold true with monsters such as Asriel and Photoshop Flowey as they are quite above that.

 

[MarvelFanatic119]

First off, it's Chara not Frisk, I don't know how many times I've said this and why people still confuse them at this point.

Secondly, the nature of her attacks don't really affect her that much. By your logic, Frisk can't scale to the other Monsters due to their SOUL bring different, which I find ridiculous considering they've tanked attacks from them and should logically scale to them, same with Undyne.

Finally, Humans and Monsters have the same power which comes from their SOUL, they can tank each other's attacks, they should scale.

There is really no need for this. Everything in this thread has been discussed several times already. I find this redundant at this point.

 

[Archnyx]

I am well aware that Chara and Frisk are different people.

Next, the nature of their attacks DOES affect this discussion - greatly so. The very reason the monsters lost to the humans in the first place was because of the disparity of their nature:

 While monsters are mostly made of magic, human beings are mostly made of water. Humans, with their physical forms, are far stronger than us. - Book in Snowdin Library

Monsters were absolutely beaten by the human:

 Not a single SOUL was taken, and countless monsters were turned to dust... - Ancient Glyphs in Waterfall

Those are from the game itself - clearly showing the difference in power.

Undyne, even though amassing an incredible amount of DT, is still a monster and thus, subject to her nature.

 

[MarvelFanatic119]

There's not much difference between a Monster and a Human SOUL, except a Human's SOUL is much more powerful. That was the main reason they lost.

Doesn't change the fact all attacks from Undertake are SOUL powered. There's not much of a difference.

Again with that logic, Frisk can't scale to the monsters due to their SOUL being different.

The only thing that would affect her strength is her emotional state, as a Monster's body and strength is tuned to their SOUL, which doesn't change much considering Undyne made it very clear she was going to stop you in the Genocide route, so yeah.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

One thing I would like to point out is that Chara's end-game stats should canonically be 99/99. Yes, that is their stats when equipped with the Real Knife and Locket, which you are not forced to do, but the game expects you to do so and even implies Chara has taken them anyway, by the end. Regardless of what weapon you choose to use in the Sans fight, Chara's murder of Flowey and destruction of reality is always done via the Real Knife (as shown via animation and sound effect) whether the Player chose to equip it or not.

I will also point out that UtU is shown to be vastly superior to Chara when they fight, inflicting far more damage and being able to take much more punishment. The only reason she loses is due to the fact that not only can Chara reset as many times as they please and know exactly what Undyne will do (who unlike Sans, will ALWAYS follow the exact same pattern throughout the entire battle), but also that Undyne has the weakness of taking greater damage from Chara's killing intent, whereas she lacks any advantages over Chara aside from raw power.

 

[Archnyx]

To MarvelFanatic,

To be clear - I am not arguing on the SOURCE of their power. I wholeheartedly agree that both races have SOUL power. What I am arguing on is the NATURE of the attacks they use. For example, a remote and a mechanical toy soldier. Both have the same source of power: the battery. The same current flows through both of them. However, how this power manifests - their nature - is quite different. Note that I'm only using this analogy for simplicity's sake.

The game itself clearly states that monsters are MOSTLY made up of magic while humans are mostly physical. It also states that a monster's body is attuned to their souls; when the body falls so too does the soul. THAT is how humans are capable of harming monsters - by destroying what little physicality they have.

Hence, I firmly believe that the nature of their attacks make a great deal of difference and should be considered in this discussion.

 

[MarvelFanatic119]

Even if their bodies is mostly made of magic, it doesn't change all that much.

Their bodies are still physical constructs that can interact and are solid enough to act as a normal body. Which is why they can interact with other objects. Their physical bodies can still very well defend themselves and allow them to attack.

The main reason why Humans are stronger is that their SOUL is much more powerful, needing all the SOULs of the Monsters in the Underground to equal one Human SOUL, THAT was the main reason they won. The soul affecting their body only changes their strength depending if they're willing to fight or not, and Undyne was going all out, she was not holding back or was weaker.

Not to mention being able to harm a being that 2-B still requires you to be Tier 2, same with tanking hits from said 2-B level character.

 

[Aparajita]

Wait, we're talking about in game stats? The very same stats that we couldn't use the scale pokemon, because (and i quote the admins) it's just "Game Mechanics" ?

I can modify the capacity of my D&D Characters to casually one-shot multiversal deities like Orcus. That's hardly a justification in my opinion.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Wait, we're talking about in game stats? The very same stats that we couldn't use the scale pokemon, because (and i quote the admins) it's just "Game Mechanics" ?
I can modify the capacity of my D&D Characters to casually one-shot multiversal deities like Orcus. That's hardly a justification in my opinion.

This has literally been discussed so much I'm probably going to just explain it on the UT page, eventually.

There are two sets of stats in Undertale. CHECK stats and internal stats. Internal stats are similar to Pokemon stats and affect how much damage things do and the like.

CHECK stats don't affect any of that, are a canon thing that exist in the world, and serve no purpose in modifying gameplay. They only exist to show how strong one character is compared to another.

 

[Aparajita]

CHECK stats don't affect any of that, are a canon thing that exist in the world, and serve no purpose in modifying gameplay. They only exist to show how strong one character is compared to another.

Can you explain what's the difference between 99 atk on random character made in Undertale (Frisk) and my Homebrew Wizard having 99 atk?

Other than, within one verse, that's multiversal in AP?

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Can you explain what's the difference between 99 atk on random character made in Undertale (Frisk) and my Homebrew Wizard having 99 atk?

Other than, within one verse, that's multiversal in AP?

Yes. Said "stats" aren't a literal thing in the Wizard's verse and only serve as a representation of his power. He does not actually magically have some value about him that is defined in-universe as "99 atk".

 

[Archnyx]

Even if their bodies is mostly made of magic, it doesn't change all that much.

Their bodies are still physical constructs that can interact and are solid enough to act as a normal body. Which is why they can interact with other objects. Their physical bodies can still very well defend themselves and allow them to attack.

The main reason why Humans are stronger is that their SOUL is much more powerful, needing all the SOULs of the Monsters in the Underground to equal one Human SOUL, THAT was the main reason they won. The soul affecting their body only changes their strength depending if they're willing to fight or not, and Undyne was going all out, she was not holding back or was weaker.

Not to mention being able to harm a being that 2-B still requires you to be Tier 2, same with tanking hits from said 2-B level character.

I agree that monsters have a physical body. I just wanted to point out that they are not as physical as humans. Think of it as striking a hollow dummy - you can easily damage that fragile frame.

With regards to Undyne hurting a Tier 2 being - this is why I'm trying to stress the importance on the nature of their attacks. The attacks of monsters DIRECTLY affect the soul. That is the exact mechanic of the game after all. Monsters' attacks are magic - they strike at the soul. Humans' attacks are physical - they strike at the body and since monsters' bodies are attuned to their souls, their soul as well takes damage. Hence, it bypasses conventional durability. If your core is directly hit, you're going to get hurt regardless of your durability.

Now, with regards to tanking hits from said being - I would like to point out that the player character was not at the max level at that time. Which , I would assume, means that they were not at full power.

 

[MarvelFanatic119]

Actually no, Monster's attacks are physical as they are spiritual, like in one instance where Undyne throws her spear at you when hang out with her, it hits and breaks the table, same as when she uses one to "stir the pot" in the same event, not to mention Frisk can hold said object in their hands and point with it. Undyne also uses her spear to cut the bridge you're on when being chased by her. Another instance is where Mad Dummy uses the Dummy bots that fire Magic Missiles. Papryrus uses ACTUAL bones along with magical ones, Vulkin's lightning is actual lightning and so on.

Other Monsters actually HAVE physical bodies such as Tsunderplane and Mettaton, Tsunderplane is ranked Low 7-C via her rushing at you. The monsters that are stronger are still using physical bodies to fight and can tank attacks of Tsunderplane's level. It makes no sense for characters like Undyne to be not as strong as Tsunderplane, especially since she's far stronger and an actual warrior that trains and fights.

It's more like the case with the Gems in Steven Universe, they're "holograms with mass".

Which is why She's at Unknown, and not straight up 2-B. Doesn't change the fact that:

-Stats put her at 99 ATK and DEF, same with LV20 Chara

-Chara is drawing power from two different SOULs that are extremely powerful ( Frisk and the Player)

-She's the ONLY Boss in Genocide that withstands several hits from Chara

- Chara was very determined in the fight as Undyne revived herself and can actually hold her own against them.

- Undyne generated her own Determination which increased her power and brought her back from death.

All these things have been discussed previously already in other threads. Look at my thread that gave the Monsters in UT Dura Negation, they can attack physically and spiritually.

 

[Archnyx]

Your right, I forgot to take into account the physical aspects of the monsters' attack. For that I do apologize.

However, this does not change the fact that it directly affects the soul. In the game, when your health reaches zero what shattered your soul was a magical attack. As far as I know, what happens to the player's body after Game Over isn't specified.

At this point I'm going to assume that we all agree that the souls, in the context of this game at least, are incorporeal - despite them having overworld avatars. If not, do let me know so that I may rethink may reasoning.

With regards to Undyne having the same stats as Lv20 Chara - the stat chart lists the ATK at Lv20 as 48. 99 would be the stat of the Real Knife. Essentially the AT would be 48(99) which, if there is no ATK Limit in the game, would be greater than Undyne's.

Final point of clarification - you mentioned Chara drawing power from TWO souls, Frisk's and the player's. I believe there is a rule in this site regarding interactions between the fictional world and the real world in that real world interactions are not strictly considered. I'm not certain how we would go about this. Any input on this matter would be greatly welcomed.

 

[MarvelFanatic119]

No problem.

The Player is a canon in game being that exists, they even have their own profile. Check the UT page. Or you know, look up the comments that I have there that explain the Player and their role in UT.

Read Azathoth's comment about the Real Knife, he explained this already. Or mine above, this was discussed already repeatedly.

Likely their body and SOUL were also destroyed due to their attacks, no reason to assume they only destroyed their SOUL when Magic attacks have physical capabilities.

This thread has been here for weeks and the only things people give have been stuff that's been discussed and explained to death already. If no one can give anything new on the matter, I think this thread should be closed.

 

[Archnyx]

Ok. I read more on the previous discussions - a bit tedious since they're kinda jumbled.

I'll concede to the point where she can contend against a tier 2 being. However, I think I now see why some people, myself included, had a problem with it. So please answer me this: did she(Undyne) at any point display capabilities one would normally expect from a tier 2 being?

 

[MarvelFanatic119]

Physically yes as she fought Chara and held her own due to her superior stats at the time, though she doesn't have much hax for someone at Tier 2, though she has her Soul Manipulation which makes people freeze in place.

Again, this is why she is only Unknown, Likely 2-B and not just 2-B only.

 

[Grand_Landmaster]

While I didn't read most of the things wrotten above, I agree with MarvelFanatic. I don't think he/she made any mistakes, as I know.

 

[Aparajita]

From what i've seen, you only get the "true" ending credits on Frisk's True Pacifist route, and people have been saying that's the canon ending. Is there any truth to that?

 

[BruceTheBatman]

I FAWKING DEMAND TIER 2 PAPYRUS!!!!

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

I FAWKING DEMAND TIER 2 PAPYRUS!!!!

There technically is Tier 2 Papyrus.

...but only when his SOUL is being controlled by Asriel.