Undertale: Undying downgrade.

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Yes a Undertale thread. Screw you.

So, uh, we tend to scale Undying (And Mettaton NEO due to scaling to Undying) to Chara due to two things:

1. Chara's end game stats are 99, the same as Undying's.

2. Undying fought a level 10-ish Chara.

Well both of those are WRONG.

1. Chara's stats when they do the feat is actually 48. 99 Attack is only using the True Knife, which is optional.

2. It means jack. Base Undyne can do the same.

Now most people would answer that Chara only one-shotting in Genocide is Game-play mechanics.

Well it's not.

It seems obvious to me that Chara doesn't one shots everyone JUST because they are Multiversal.

As noted in the game Lore, the more a Human wants to kill, the more it will do damages. And what does Chara wants to do? Kill people. A lot. It explains why every bossess are One-shot. Chara wants them dead.

However, if you give up the Genocide route, the One-Shot effects goes away. Undyne can both be one-shot and tanks multiple hits from Chara. The difference is Genocide Route or not. The difference is the lack of blood lust.

And as Toriel states when you kill her in Genocide:

"You really hate me that much?"

Unlike in Pacifist, she isn't surprised at Chara's power, but their Blood lust. Again, confirming Chara isn't absurdely above every monsters via sheer power.

So we can't say that Sans, Undying or NEO fight a 2-B Chara unless we assume Asgore, Undyne and EX do too.

Same goes with Stats. Chara's stats for the feats are 48 attack. Scales to Asgore, Undyne and EX.

So, in this case we have two choice.

-Chara's 2-B feat doesn't apply to their physical form/only after they killed everyone.

-Chara's 2-B feat does apply to their physical form and most monsters could scale to it.

Mind you, Tier 2 for most characters isn't as outlandish as it sounds. Mention that every monster = One powerful human SOUL. The thing about the lost SOULs fightning Frisk and the Amalgamate being shit tier. (And lack of concrete feats)

Although downgrading everyone not named Asriel, Chara or Flowey to "Unknown" or some form of "At least" seems more reasonable to me. EventhoughTier2Papyruswouldbethedream.

It may possibly influence Omega Flowey, since otherwise the only proof that Chara < Flowey is that statement. But eh, we will see I guess.

 

[MarvelFanatic119]

Mettaton NEO is around Tier 2 not just because he's scaled to Undyne the Undying, but also because he's was originally built to be a "human eradication robot", meaning Humans with powerful SOULS.

It's not just bloodlust that makes Chara powerful, it's their stolen SOUL from Frisk. Determination helps increase their power and strength.

Pacifist is where you DON'T kill a single thing. I think you mean the Neutral Route. Genocide Route is where Chara begins to take control of Frisk, but not fully due to them not having high enough LOVE and EXP. Neutral is the Player's Influence on Frisk but they stop controlling them somewhere along the way, where Genocide they keep feeding their Determination to Chara to the point they're too powerful and they can't control them anymore.

Toriel didn't want to fight Chara/Frisk, she just wanted to keep them in the Ruins to keep them safe. Remember a Monster's stats change depending if they want to fight you or not due to the nature of their SOUL.

Undyne's different because she's fully aware what Chara wants and knows she needs to kill them, which is why she doesn't die in one hit, she's fighting to protect everyone from a monster that will kill them all.

The Real Knife is Chara's preferred weapon as they say "about time" when equipping it. It's theirs as it was in a box along with their Locket in their old room they shared with Asriel. It's their most powerful and preferred weapon, so I don't see why it's "optional" as it's their Standard Equipment.

Asgore and Mettaton NEO can't scale to Chara as they both got one-shotted by them in the Genocide route. Asgore cause he didn't want to fight and wasn't powerful enough and NEO because Chara's more powerful than most Humans they fell into the Underground.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

These were just thing to add up. The stats were the main reason, these aren't solid enough on their own.

I have shown that without bloodlust, Chara is powerful, yes, but not way beyond most monsters.

I'm saying that the one-shot effect stops once you go to Neutral from Genocide. As it it's not a matter of power.

Not a reason. Toriel doesn't mind when she dies in Neutral, but in Genocide she doesn't comment on "Wtf why are you so strong" but "r00d why do you hate me so much". Again, bloodlust, not power.

You do know it's the same with every boss, not just Undyne?

 

[MarvelFanatic119]

One-shots stop when you reach Neutral because the Player stops giving Chara their Determination and feeding them EXP.

Undyne's literally the only boss in Genocide that survives one hit from Chara.

Toriel? Dead.

Papyrus? Nuh uh.

Muffet? Heck no.

Mettaton? Gone.

Asgore? Nope.

Sans? That's pretty obvious by now.

The only who knew about how Dangerous Chara is was Mettaton and Sans, the former Underestimating Chara and the latter having f*ck all DEF and HP, which lead them to being One-shotted. Oh yeah there's Muffet too, but yeah.

Undyne literally generated her own Determination to come back to life and fight Chara on even ground, no other Monster in the Genocide Route can do that as far as I'm aware.

Toriel loses to Frisk/Chara because their Determination helps them become stronger. She only notes Chara because she can FEEL the bloodlust coming off them. Why else do you think Frisk can hold on against Asriel despite being LV 1 and Asriel having "Infinite" ATK and DEF?

Unless any normal human with bloodlust can kill practically every Monster in Mt.Ebott, which is not the case.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Chara however keeps their LV. And tbh it's mainly Frisk.

Because she is in Undying form. But if you fight her while in Genocide you one shot her before she go Undying. Yet in Neutral she doesn't.

How do you know that she FEELS it? She doesn't even NOTICE it until she gets one shot.

Of course you need power, but not JUST power. Otherwise Frisk would be able to do it without Chara.

 

[MarvelFanatic119]

Becuase Chara HAS no SOUL. Which is why they used Frisk's.

Undyne DID die, but she came back through sheer willpower knowing what will happen if Chara got past her. Why she isn't like that in Neutral is because by then you have Spared a few monsters unlike where in Genocide you slaughter every monster you can find to get more powerful.

Because she only says it in the Genocide Route and Chara is only present there? Why else would she say it there only and not it the Neutral Route too considering you kill her regardless which route you take? Remember, Monsters can feel emotions and their bodies are in sync with them due to their SOUL.

Frisk can fight just fine without Chara, shown in their fight against Asgore and Omega Flowey.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

There is nothing indicating that Chara loses power when that happens. Especially since there is a legit answer as to why the One-shot doesn't occur anymore.

Not my point. My point is that Chara can both one-shot base Undyne (In genocide) or not (In Neutral) despite being at the same level.

She only says it in Genocide because it's the only route where Frisk got enough bloodlust (From chara) to one-shots monster like that?

Yeah but Frisk as a specific level can't one-shot a monster that would be one-shot at the same level by Chara.

 

[MarvelFanatic119]

Actually there IS a legit reason. Remember Chara cannot fully manifest until AFTER they kill Sans. At that point, you can't go back once you SAVE and can only stop if you RESET. The Player is the one controlling Frisk, giving Chara the EXP they need to become stronger. Once you spare something in Genocide, you cut off Chara and their presence is no longer there.

Chara can one shot Undyne (base) because of: A. Determination from both Frisk and the Player's SOUL B. Their bloodlust and desire to kill everything. C. Can't one shot her in neutral because that's Frisk, not Chara.

Not Frisk, Chara. The minute you abort Genocide, you control Frisk, not Chara. You stop feeding them your determination.

Again, Frisk =/= Chara.

Frisk wants to save everyone and spare them. Chara wants to KILL everything.

Of course Frisk won't one shot because they don't want to hurt anyone, unlike Chara.

You need to know that Chara is only in the Genocide route. Not Neutral nor Pacifist. Chara wants to kill everyone, so they obviously won't appear in a route where you spare a few or everyone. You don't get the Locket (99 DEF) or Real Knife (99 ATK) in Pacifist or Neutral, only Genocide. Your character won't move without your input in Pacifist or Neutral, only Genocide. You don't get to meet Chara face to face in Pacifist or Neutral, only Genocide where you killed every monster you came across and they fed off your Determination to the point you can't control them anymore.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

You still have a degree of control doe. Also, Chara says their power comes from Frisk/The Player, they aren't the one giving a huge powerboost (apart from the bloodlust thing)

Again Chara doesn't give a power boost to Frisk, only the bloodlust.

No powerboost but still one shots means that Genocide Frisk killing everything isn't a matter of power, but a matter of Bloodlust.

Again Chara doesn't give power. They take power to become strong. Chara only really controls Frisk.

 

[MarvelFanatic119]

Yes, Chara explicitly states the Player is giving them their Determination to make them stronger and control Frisk. The Player is in control until after you beat Sans as at that point you have no option but to RESET to get off the Genocide Route.

Frisk's and the Player's SOUL is giving Chara the boost they need, not the other way around. Chara is completely powerless unless someone feeds them Determination, which is why you never see them in anywhere other than the Genocide Route.

There is NO "Genocide Frisk", ONLY Chara. Frisk in the neutral Route is at best killing in self defense while Chara is actively seeking victims to kill. Which is much different.

They're using the same SOUL, obviously the difference would be the amount of Bloodlust, which makes it more deadly the more you want to kill.

Frisk is a Pacifist, Chara is a killer. The only reason Frisk would kill is because only due to the influence of both the Player and Chara have on them.

Never said they give power. They control Frisk and use their SOUL. That's it.

Frisk having no desire to hurt despite having High EXP and LV would not give them enough power to kill anything in one hit. They need to use their Determination to make them stronger and the desire to kill in order to do so. Which is something they clearly lack.

Treating the Neutral and Genocide Route as though they're one and the same is completely incorrect as they are both drastically different from one another, considering they are quite literally entirely different timelines.

Obviously if your LV is higher than your opponent by a large margin you can oneshot them. Though not always.

It's already been shown that Determination can help increase one's strength if the user wishes so, which is why Frisk can fight and hold their own against Asgore, God Flowey and Asriel despite only being LV 1.

And since Chara has Determination in spades and WANTS to kill everything, there's no reason not to assume they can't do the same.

If bloodlust is all you need to kill a Monster in UT, then Carnage (Marvel) can oneshot Asgore.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

I think you misunderstood what I meant.

Chara is just animating Frisk and possibly feeding off Frisk, before the end of Genocide they are powerless.

What I'm saying is that Chara/Frisk being LV 20 isn't the reasons why they are one-shotting monsters. Nor is the fact that Chara is "giving Frisk power" (Which isn't the case as we seem to be agreeing on). The fact that Chara is controlling them and is the one having intense bloodlust is the reasons. Thus, Chara/Frisk being LV 20 at that point isn't the reason Asgore is getting ded in one shot. It isn't the reason why they can 2-B feat either.

So we can't use Chara/Frisk's ATK level to compare them to Undying, or say that Sans fights a 2-B being and wins.

It's either Bloodlust or Determination. But since both Frisk and Chara have the same power source it seems odd that Chara would have more Determination than Frisk. Since Frisk's DT has only managed to "Equalizes" stats in fights. Frisk never managed to one-shot or no sells a monster via Determination. Thus it would seem odd to me that Chara could use it to one-shot a monster.

Btw yes you can compare Neutral and Genocide. You can always give up a Genocide route to go back to Neutral. The LV remains the same, yet you don't cleave through bossess like a knife in hot butter.

Also, yes as the books said "If a human with a powerful soul were to be struck with a urge to kill" you need BOTH a powerful soul and bloodlust to one-shots everything, but not just one or another. Which is again the point of this thread. You do not do a Genocide with power, you do it with Bloodlust.

 

[MarvelFanatic119]

Chara feeding off Frisk we agree on.

Frisk is being controlled by Chara, Chara is no way, shape or form holding back whatsoever. Frisk does in fact hold back due to their Pacifism. Chara kills anything in their way.

Frisk holds back, Chara does not.

Yes we can compare them, considering again: -Undyne the Undying is the only thing in Genocide to withstand several hits -Undyne generated her own Determination during the fight, which dramatically increased her stats.

I know you can do that. The problem is the fact Frisk is in control and lacking the intent to hurt someone in Neutral unlike Chara. This site clearly shows that Frisk is Pacifistic while Chara is Genocidal.

Why would Frisk EVER want to hurt anyone? It's pretty much established that they want to SAVE everyone, not kill them. Chara wants to kill everything, so their Determination gives them that power. Determination can give you the power you need depending on what the user wants. Frisk wants to SAVE? Determination will give them the power to do so. Chara wants to KILL? Determination will give them the power. It's not the issue that one has higher Determination than the other, it's that they channel that Determination in different ways.

Obviously they keep the LV and EXP, it's Frisk's SOUL that gathers it. Not Chara's, considering they don't have one.

Ah yeah, you do need BOTH to do the Genocide. Again, if you only need bloodlust, Carnage from Marvel can, again, oneshot Asgore. If you don't have a powerful SOUL, you can't hurt them enough.

Yes, Genocide is done with bloodlust. But do you know what that means? You don't hold back, you don't hesitate, you don't care, you cut down your opponent no matter who it is. You show no MERCY. Frisk holds back because they're Pacifist. Chara isn't. Why would they hold back?

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

We have no clue if Chara/Frisk was at full DT at that time against Undying. Simply saying that Undying didn't die in one-shot isn't enough, as it could simply means that she is tough enough to survive a bloodlust hit, not that she is so powerful she manages to survive their maximum amount of DT (That would make her Asriel level, and that is outright wrong considering their stats).

Even if we assume Frisk holds back their DT to avoid killing they have no reason to hold back their dura if they truly want something (As shown against Asriel they can have high DEF but low ATK if they don't want to attack).

 

[MarvelFanatic119]

Not MAXIMUM Determination, a high amount of Determination. Chara wanted to kill everything from the get go. The only limitation they had was their LV. Even if they weren't even at 1%, that can still be around at Tier 2 given the scope.

Yes, Frisk COULD, but won't. Frisk holds back against Asgore (so does he), but still beast him. Frisk is forced to fight God Flowey who has six SOULs and can only do little damage to him (which is why they are at 2-B and not 2-A) And Asriel is the absolute strongest being Frisk fought, and they can't hurt him in any way. Only hold on and SAVE.

Frisk DOES NOT use their Determination to KILL ever. Only SPARE, MERCY and SAVE. Chara WANTS to kill. Not Frisk. Chara.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

That's still no proof that Undying scales to 2-B feat. As far as we know Chara's DT could be anywhere to just enough to one-shot Asgore to their 2-B feat. We don't know however.

Why won't they? What would make them hold back their Dura?

 

[MarvelFanatic119]

Which is why UtU is at Unknown, likely 2-B, and not just straight up 2-B.

They're Pacifist. They won't hurt anyone unless another force (Chara and the Player) makes them against their will. Likely they weren't "Determined" enough until certain above mentioned scenarios happened.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Both point present in Undyne's profiles are now debunked doe. Fighting a weaker Chara than the one who did a 2-B feat doesn't count anymore as it's not a matter of power, and stats can't be used unless 2-B base Undyne. The 2-B rating assumed both previous points were legit.

Dude I'm talking their DURA. It won't hurt anyone to be durable enough to survive what they do. My point is that DT never made Frisk/Chara overwhemingly powerful/durable against an enemy. At best it can equalizes stats but Frisk was never determined enough to completely no-sells an enemy's attacks. Not even against Flowey. There is no reason to think Chara wanting to kill would make them Determined enough to have completely overwhelmingly high ATK to one-shot people. Hence my point that Chara/Frisk equalizes stats normally using DT like they do in Pacifist, and the Bloodlust make then one-shots (Note that bloodlust doesn't increase their DEF, it's a glass canon situation). They don't use DT to be stronger than the ones they want to kill.

 

[MarvelFanatic119]

Not sure about Undyne, as I said all I know about that. Maybe ask Azathoth?

Determination does not "equalize" stats, it increases them. Again, the scope and situation against Omega Flowey and Asriel were much higher than anything else in the game, making Frisk believing that they NEED to win, and give everyone a happy ending. They're not fighting for their survival in this like earlier on, but they are fighting for everyone, humans and monsters.

Again, bloodlust + powerful SOUL = Death. Determination helps there. And yes, Determination does help, unless Frisk ALWAYS has Multiversal Durability.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

I'm more on the opinion of leaving both NEO and Undying at Unknown tbh. Although 2-B Base Undyne makes me hard it ain't happening I feel.

It indeed increases stats, but it NEVER happened that it increased stats to the point of being high enough to either kills in one-shot or no-sells attack. It always made it so Frisk/Chara could somewhat trades blows with the enemy. It's more logical to assume the same happened with Undying rather than Undying matched Chara's determination to solo the verse.

It does help but it isn't the thing that makes Chara/Frisk one-shots everything.

 

[MarvelFanatic119]

Well, that's okay, but we need more input than us considering it was just us the whole time on this thread only.

How do you know? Obviously it gives a power boost, considering we need a Powerful SOUL AND Bloodlust to one shot, as we both know.

Determination increased Undyne's stats, but not as high as Chara's as they can still SAVE and LOAd at the time, but you probably knew that.

It is a huge part of it considering a Human SOUL is more powerful than a Monster SOUL.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

What do you mean? It factually never happened that DT made Frisk/Chara much stronger or durable than the enemy. No need to assume it happened here when we have another explanation (That Bloodlust did most of the damage)

Well yeah but they are still in the same ballpark.

 

[MarvelFanatic119]

That's because neither where at full power until later on. When Frisk was at full power, it was against someone with six SOULs and another had equal to 7. Against Frisk's own SOUL, they only could hold on.

Humans are dangerous because of their SOUL and Bloodlust, not just Bloodlust alone. Assuming Bloodlust > Determination seems ridiculous in my opinion.

Not even close. You need ALL the Monsters in the Underground to make the power equivalent to ONE Human Soul. They are definitely not in the same ball park.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Doesn't explain why Frisk never had Asgore-level dura against Undyne or something of a smaller scale.

Yes they are. But your explanation is that DT did all of it. That Asgore can be one-shot via DT. But DT increases both Dura and ATK usually. Blood lust doesn't. What is the point of saying that Monsters are weak to bloodlust if Chara/Frisk is just going to Determine their way through them?

 

[MarvelFanatic119]

Because they were not again "Determined" enough at the time. It depends on the scenario and Frisk cares about others rather than them self.

Again, unless Bloodlust can do something like: -Increase stats -Create and destroy timelines -Bring people back from death and non-existence

It is not in the same league as Determination. Bloodlust only gives someone a reason not to hold back and kill with all their power. Other than that, it is no where near as important as Determination in Undertale. It's not the only reason, it's the MAIN reason.

Monsters are again weak to people with a Powerful SOUL and Bloodlust, not people who just have Bloodlust, if that where the case, we wouldn't have so much talk about how powerful Humans are with their SOUL. Otherwise any random killer could off the Monsters just as easily.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

You still have no reason to think Chara just overdo the determination to solo the verse. Chara seems to think of killing all monsters as a casual act. Not something to especially be Determined about.

>Bloodlust only gives someone a reason to not hold back.

...No? It's literally stated "As monster are atuned to their soul, the crueler our enemies' intentions are, the more their attacks will hurt". It doesn't affect Frisk/Chara, it's the monsters who are weak to it.

Again there is no point to introduce the bloodlust mechanic in the lore if it just ends up being merely about DT.

 

[MarvelFanatic119]

Chara sees killing as fun and doesn't care who it is. That is high bloodlust obviously. They represent the desire to become stronger no matter what is in your way, they explain that at the end of the Genocide route. Pretty sure they are Determined, since very time they save they things like "2 left" or just simply "Determination", they WILL complete the Route, and the only thing that stops them is you.

I meant for Humans, all it does for them is make them more ruthless and aggressive towards others. DT makes them stronger.

Monsters are weak to bloodlust, we have agreed on that, but it is no where near as powerful as Determination. Unless you can provide evidence that it can do the same things DT can on an equal or higher level. I'm not saying Bloodlust isn't important, it's not AS important as the power of a Human SOUL.

It mainly is about DT. The barrier needs to be broken by the power of seven Human SOULs, no where does it indicate we need bloodlust to do it, as Chara couldn't do anything unless the Player gave them their SOUL so they can bring back the game and leave to other timelines to possess Frisk.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Yeah, but it's fun. It doesn't require high level of determination.

Bloodlust doesn't add power. Monsters are just weak to it. MONSTERS. Not the Barrier. I'm saying that Chara one-shotting everyone in the Underground is mainly a matter of their bloodlust making monsters die easily, not a matter of LV or DT. Other feats can be attributable to DT, but most of Genocide run is bloodlust, not DT.

 

[MarvelFanatic119]

They tell you they believe the reason they were brought back was for power. Together, you eradicated the enemy to become strong. That's what they tell you. They would get it no matter what is in their way. Also, just because it's fun, doesn't you can 't be determined. If you are having fun, that just means you want to explore more and do every possible thing there, like how Flowey did it when he had DT to SAVE and LOAD.

And again, if Bloodlust was the ONLY thing that killed them, there would be no need to mention something about a Powerful SOUL. They are WEAK to it, it doesn't mean they instantly die when you stab them. The main attribute to the Humans' victory was their powerful SOULs, not their bloodlust.

Bloodlust is the driving force. Not the main thing. It helps their Determination be more malicious and deadlier so Humans can kill monsters easily. It's also pretty much explained by both Flowey and Sans EXP and LV CAN make you stronger. Chara thrives on these things, unlike Frisk.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Yeah but between "Killing monsters for fun" and "surviving for your dear life", when will you be the most determined?

It's neither only DT who did the job. Someone with a weak SOUL wouldn't be able to use DT to even survive against monsters. Either way my point still stands. Most monsters should at least be comparable to Chara/Frisk with the amount of DT they show in Genocide. It isn't a "DT makes me 2-B so I stomp everyone".

 

[MarvelFanatic119]

Actually it's more "gaining power and removing anything getting in your way because you can", there's nothing about it being Fun other than the Sans and UtU fights. Grinding isn't meant to be fun and you spend a good amount of the time doing that to gain EXP.

Not to mention Frisk's Determination is higher when protecting others than just themselves, which is why they aren't as powerful earlier on than in the later parts.

I'm not saying DT does it on its own, Bloodlust DOES play a good part of it, but which one would be playing a bigger part in it? The desire or intent to kill or the ability that lets you increase your power and manipulate the space-time continuum to your whim?

Not really, no. Everyone easily dies to Chara/Frisk in Genocide, the only expection being UtU with her own Determination and Sans who dodges and can bypass their physical body via SOUL Magic and KR. The Grinding doesn't count.

And again, Mettaton NEO is a "Human Eradication Robot" made by Alphys, who did thorough studies on Human SOULs and Determination. Which is why he was put at 2-C for his high end.

Also, we need other people here. Because we haven't really gotten much done other than disputing each other's claims.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Sorry I kinda mis-said what I wanted to say. I meant that without Bloodlust or anything, most monsters wouldn't be killed in one-shot by Chara/Frisk. Unless you want to assume the DT does all the job. That's all we need to agree on. That DT doesn't do ALL the job in Genocide. And that without the Bloodlust effect you wouldn't be able to one-shot everything.

NEO is mainly scaled from Undying doe. The other stuff was just here to support the scaling.

I'd rather finish our argument rather than bring people here and make it a mess.

 

[MarvelFanatic119]

True about Bloodlust and Determination needed for Genocide, we can agree there. Though I still stand on my point about Determination playing a bigger part though, not changing my mind there.

Really? I thought that was the reason. Hm, good to know then.

No, as in we need more input here to see if someone agrees with this or not. Cause we both won't change our minds no matter what. We need more people's opinion on this, that's what I meant.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

I'm not exatly arguing that. As I said my point is that without bloodlust, the monsters aren't infinitely below Frisk/Chara in Genocide.

This either means that:

A) 2-B stats was gained through a sudden surge of DT to destroy the world at the end of Genocide. Which means Undying/NEO/Sans didn't fight 2-B Frisk/Chara.

B) 2-B stats were gained when Chara killed flowey and Asgore or that Chara going true fom gave them such stats. I think we can agree that LV certainly didn't do the 2-B job and that Chara shouldn't be higher than Frisk in power so this option seems unlikely. This option also means 2-B doesn't scale to Genocide bossess.

C) Frisk naturally has that level of power with the amount of DT they used in Genocide. Thus scaling 2-B to most of the verse (Much like how 48 ATK would lead to scaling everyone to Tier 2). This however means 2-B (Or at least 2-C) scales to Genocide bossess, but also everyone else.

Like I said in the OP. Either a Downgrade to Undying, NEO and Sans (Somewhat) or an upgrade for everyone.

Let us at least finish understand each others' point before asking if people agrees with our non-existent conclusion tho.

 

[MarvelFanatic119]

A) Chara always wanted to destroy the world since the start. LV DOES make a difference since they thrive on that, unlike Frisk.

B) Chara does not again any EXP for killing Flowey or Asgore, after reaching LV 20 they are at their absolute already. And again, LV makes a difference since it does make you stronger and Chara is the embodiment of this at the end of the route since they tell you that.

C) Determination is situational. It depends on the feelings and thoughts of the user and how determined they are on something. Frisk is at maximum determination only when protecting their friends, not protecting themselves. Otherwise everyone would be Tier 3 or 2 scaling to Frisk a while ago. Not to mention Chara also feeds off the Player's Determination as well as Frisk's.

So a Downgrade for an Unknown, a High end for another, and another Unknown. That really doesn't change anything.

No, we made our points clear already. Both of us are adamant with our views and neither will change our mind. That's it. We need more people's input in this, to see what they think and offer something new to this thread.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

You really telling me that from the Jump from 19 to 20 made them go from Tier 7 to Tier 2? LV does make a difference but not enough to be a tier changer is what I'm trying to say.

So basically you're saying Frisk DID get a sudden surge in DT at the end to kill the world?

Undying was "Likely". I'd say at the very least she would be downgrade to "Possiby", if not outright "Unknown". Same for Neo. And Sans was assumed to have hax capable of damaging Tier 2. Now it isn't the case anymore.

 

[MarvelFanatic119]

They weren't Tier 7 at the time. Asgore got one shotted so that doesn't count, Toriel in the beginning got one shorter and she's the same level as Asgore. Everyone gets obliterated except UtU and Sans.

Chara did with the help of the Player, Frisk no longer in control by that time.

Still not much of a change overall, affecting 3 characters when two where at Unknown already. And again, unless other people agree this thread will go nowhere. Which is why you need other people here, like a Staff member.

Because clearly I'm not convincing you in the slightest. But I'm not the best expert in UT. Try Azathoth.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

LV 19 Chara/Frisk can fight Asgore doe. And he doesn't get killed in one shot. Only in Genocide (Which can be covered by DT/Bloodlust) does Asgore gets killed in one shot.

The Player certainly isn't the one doing it. Chara can clearly do it against their will.

Sans is an extremely popular VS Debate character. If he doesn't affect Tier 2 as much as he used to it's still going to make some change.

 

[MarvelFanatic119]

Frisk in NOWHERE near Determined at that point in Neutral. They are PACIFIST. They have nowhere near the desire to kill as Chara. I have said that many times already.

One fights for survival and self defense, the other wants to gain as much power no matter what gets in their way.

Guess who's more Determined? :/

Chara explicitly states that the Player is their "partner". They woke Chara up and gave them the power to destroy the world. Only when after they destroy the world is when they go against the Player and take their SOUL. Even if they refused, Chara only goes against their wishes because they have enough Determination from both Frisk and the Player that they can break their control. Which is why you can go for Neutral many times in the Genocide run earlier on. Because Chara wasn't powerful enough to do so yet. Only move a little on their own on occasion.

Sans RARELY fights other Tier 2 characters, usually because they have hax that beat his or tanks his own hax, which can't be said the same for him.

He usually goes against people who are physically stronger than him and/or have no resistance to his hax. The only person who he beat that had hax and Tier 2 was Vriska, and she didn't even start in her Ancestral Awakening form.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

That doesn't do anything against my point. My point is that Asgore only died to high Bloodlust and DT, not sheer stats. By sheer stats, LV 17 with Worn Dagger > LV 20 at base, AKA the one who did the feat. So again, you saying that 2-B feat was done with huge amount of DT?

I would question Chara directly taking power form The Player, since the later kinda exist on a higher plane than Chara do.

 

[MarvelFanatic119]

For Genocide, you need to account for three things: -Bloodlust (the desire or intent to kill) -Determiination (the thing that gives you power) -LV and EXP (these make you stronger and you get these from killing someone)

How do you know it was JUST Bloodlust and DT? LV as well gives you strength. Frisk severely holds back against Asgore in both Pacifist and Neutral, of course they won't be killing him in one shot. They keep asking Asgore to stop fighting, that tells you that much.

You cannot compare Frisk's stats and Chara's stats and treat them one and the same, both of them are very different and are determined about different things.

No, LV 20 with Real Knife is Chara's base, it's their preferred weapon. Why else you have it accessed only in the Genocide Route?

The Player is freely interacting with the world. That much is shown in the game and not to mention Chara talks to them and straight up takes their SOUL.