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Yeah but it still shows that 9-A is not where the verse caps, and Vulkin is obviously inferior to Flowey but 8-C < 8-B, but tbh I don’t think I can get it anywhere besides just making MHS+ args a bit more believable
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Undertale: Minor LS downgrade and Asriel intelligence update
- Thread starter StrymULTRA
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- 15,094
- 6,847
- Thread starter
- #42
This isn't relevant with what I am saying but ok.
- 10,044
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Are we talking about scaling everyone to the elevator's KE?
Just to be sure (No offense meant.), this passes the Kinetic Energy Feats rules, right? I recall those sometimes being finnicky.
Ex:
Just to be sure (No offense meant.), this passes the Kinetic Energy Feats rules, right? I recall those sometimes being finnicky.
Ex:
- Kinetic Energy based on Movement Speed is case by case: Fiction often treats the speed with which a character can move himself as unrelated to their attack power. As such feats like just running or carrying a small object, like another character, should only be used if the fiction has made clear that the speed of the movement correlates to the character's power or if the character uses the fast moving object to attack. Calculating the energy necessary for moving large structures at great speeds, using the speed things move as a secondary effect of an attack, throwing objects at great speeds etc. are all acceptable methods of quantifying a characters power regardless.
- 15,094
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- Thread starter
- #44
...what? How is this relevant here?
- 10,044
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Just wanted to be sure.
The feat is a KE feat for a calculated mass moving at a calculated speed.
I'm also a bit unsure about if Calc Stacking rules have any relevancy here.
I want to be sure it's not at odds with KE feat standards. No offense meant.
- 15,094
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- Thread starter
- #46
It's calc stacking if it's using a speed got from a whole different feat. Here instead the feat has both mass and speed at the same time.
- 10,044
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Thank you for the reassurance & clarification.
- 2,557
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Probably idk
- 2,042
- 475
how very interesting!
Eden_Warlock99
She/Her- 10,169
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Remember lads told me it wasn't gonna have high results, kinda crazy how it reached 8-B.
The new mass of the elevator is definitely doing most of the work tho
The new mass of the elevator is definitely doing most of the work tho
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Bump?
Mephistus
Username Only- 1,018
- 778
After rewatching the scene I'm going to have to agree.
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The elevator feat has been accepted, by the way
Eden_Warlock99
She/Her- 10,169
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Think it deserves its own CRT
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I mean, why can't it be discussed here? It's still relevant here by the fact that we were talking about upgrading Flowey's lifting strength (Which also doubles as an upgrade to some top tier characters).
Eden_Warlock99
She/Her- 10,169
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Should probably add a section about it in the OP then
- 2,557
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Maybe at Possibly rating given we have no direct proofs tbh
- 15,094
- 6,847
- Thread starter
- #59
No. What would be the reason be?
We know nothing about how they fought, nor if Sans' TK even overpowered Flowey's vines.
It's better to just leave Asgore, Toriel, Undyne and NEO scaling.
ShionAH
He/Him- 16,995
- 5,143
Well Asgore scales for the same reason (and being the King) and Sans’ magic >> Flowey
Mephistus
Username Only- 1,018
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Actually, I do have an issue with the figure found here used for the vertical height the elevator fell being 598.58 meters https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/U...owey_Brings_an_elevator_to_New_Home-Undertale
For straight up falling and taking into account the rough timeframe to accelerate (which wouldn't just start at 100 mph; gravity needs to accelerate it) it's not instantaneous; using the 7.86 second falling its total free fall would be 302.95 meters which is more realistic https://www.translatorscafe.com/uni...0665&gu=m/s2&p=3&hu=m&t=7.86&vu=m/s&_src=form
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- 15,094
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- Thread starter
- #62
No, Asgore scales because he is physically stronger than Flowey, that's the main difference than Sans who abuses hax all the time.
Keeping to repeat the same over and over without any actual proof behind "well Sans killed him a bunch of times" when we know nothing on how these fights went is just dumb (and Asgore has not even the doubt on his side, given that Flowey's still powered from him having the essence of a Boss monster, that being Asriel, Sans not really).
Perhaps a "possibly" should be used, but I am completely against a straight rating, as it's extremely vague otherwise and has very little to back it up.
ShionAH
He/Him- 16,995
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That works for me, do we scale this to Base Undyne or Undying btw?
- 15,094
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- Thread starter
- #64
Only latter.
- 15,094
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- Thread starter
- #65
Actually I have a way to make others than Asgore scale.
We can make base Undyne downscale to Flowey, due to her, unlike the Amalgamates, being able to sustain her Determination without melting in a powerless puddle of magic, especially when Flowey isn't potrayed as extremely OP compared to anything but Asgore for his physicals, but for his SAVE ability.
I'll leave y'all if to make that a straight rating or just a likely/possibly for Undyne though.
We can make base Undyne downscale to Flowey, due to her, unlike the Amalgamates, being able to sustain her Determination without melting in a powerless puddle of magic, especially when Flowey isn't potrayed as extremely OP compared to anything but Asgore for his physicals, but for his SAVE ability.
I'll leave y'all if to make that a straight rating or just a likely/possibly for Undyne though.
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How Undyne sustaining DT would scale her? We don’t even know how her amounts compare to Amalgamates. Also, Flowey base DT > Undyne’s DT. Also, Flowey literally killed everyone in the Underground
Why would even Asgore scale?
ShionAH
He/Him- 16,995
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Asgore beat the shit out of Flowey and he could never get past him
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No? Flowey could never make Asgore to show where the SOULs are, not to kill him. Flowey literally says that he killed everyone. “Get past him” = get the SOULs.
- 15,094
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- Thread starter
- #70
What I mean is the control over said DT, given that it's a substance that grants power other than just funi time powers. The Amalgamates are like extremely fodder right because they have SHIT control over it, they're barely solid after all.How Undyne sustaining DT would scale her? We don’t even know how her amounts compare to Amalgamates. Also, Flowey base DT > Undyne’s DT. Also, Flowey literally killed everyone in the Underground
Undyne and Flowey both have enough control to at least not melt (though Flowey isn't a monster, so the reason is maybe that), so I think that base Undyne should at least downscale from the guy.
Flowey says that only after that we kill Asgore though, meaning that it's implied that Flowey never managed to do it by himself.
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True, but we know for sure that Undyne < Flowey, both narratively and by pure DT.
Agreed.
Simply no reason to? If a character is literally stronger than another, there is no way to downscale from him.
However, if we look at the context:
With our help, Asgore is dead AND Flowey got six souls. His entire complaint with Asgore was that Asgore never showed him where souls are, but Flowey was sure that he will show them to Frisk.
And again, he literally says he killed everyone
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- #72
Tbh Undyne has a bit of narrative by her side, as she's always potrayed as this super stronk muscleman, while Flowey... not really.
To be fair I don't think that Flowey should be like fucktillion times stronger than Undyne either, especially when both have still a similar power source, and Determination is described as the peak power of the verse.
Heck, we have Frisk who has more amounts of DT than both, yet they're not potrayed as being absurdly overpowered compared to DT-less monsters everytime, only when having their peak potential. I simply think both should be relative.
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This is not really narratively. We literally know that Flowey killed everyone and stuff, so
I agree that it is possible for Undyne to be comparable to Flowey, despite being inferior, however we don’t have any solid proof why would she be comparable. Just because she has Determination does not mean that she can downscale from Flowey. Just because all humans have muscles does not mean 8-years old kid is comparable to a professional boxer or smth like that.
This is a good point, however Frisk starts from Wall level on minimal DT and stats, which complicates a lot of stuff and makes the scaling rely on assumptions…
- 15,094
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- #74
My issue is that Humans are the source of DT itself, they're different than Undyne and Flowey who instead have relatively small amounts of it, with their stats so being fixated on the little they have, while Humans instead can manipulate their power level depending on their DT.
Yeah, basically implying that's only because of us if he is, as otherwise he couldn't. Moving on.
Eden_Warlock99
She/Her- 10,169
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Undyne already scales to Flowey in her Undying form, I really don't see anything that'd scale Base Undyne to Flowey, especially since doing so would put Asgore and co at the same Tier as Papyrus
ShionAH
He/Him- 16,995
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I mean its not like Papyrus is considered a fodder, he is pretty strong narratively
Eden_Warlock99
She/Her- 10,169
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He's weaker than pretty much all the random encounters in Hotland and most of the ones in Waterfall, he's pretty skilled tho
ShionAH
He/Him- 16,995
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No he is not, he holds back
Eden_Warlock99
She/Her- 10,169
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Eh, that's a theory more than anything,
We just really know that his Special Attack is way stronger than his other attacks
ShionAH
He/Him- 16,995
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No, even Undyne says he is pretty powerful but barely actually fights
From Papys profile: "Too kindhearted to actually hurt anyone (Note that this puts the limitations of his given feats, especially in comparison to other monsters such as Undyne (She remarks that he is extremely strong, even by her standards, but wouldn't hurt a fly, hence why she keeps putting off his desire to join the Royal Guard) in perspective, as we've never seen Papyrus actually trying to KILL someone, merely capture them alive)."
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