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Undead Unluck Discussion Thread

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@Otosaka could you calc this? just for more ap for the verse, Fuuko is 155cm.

Spring punched and made the crater
 
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Nelliels said:
I'm not scaling them to a full extension as that would end up being more travel speed for them and we don't know its full extension. What I do is scale Juiz and Andy to moving to it.
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Shen holds on it, Juiz and Andy just jump.
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But how can we say that it's moving at the same speed if it's not extending the same way?

I also don't think this small little panel used show them going on the offence together has the intention to say "hey look, they're going super fast! As fast as Shen's staff did that one time!" when there's no emphasis on that. It's more likely that the author just thought it would be a cool way for Shen to go up, with no intention of it being as fast as we saw it that one time.

Juiz deflecting bullets at close range is portrayed as impressive and it does not make contextual sense for these guys to be faster than Top when he started running in his armor (at mach 40 over The Sea of Japan), when in the same chapter as your scan, we see that normal Top was portrayed as being faster, and two chapters after that, Billy using Unstoppable was too fast for Andy despite him being less proficient. We already know that while normal Top can dodge and weave bullets, he's not so fast that they don't pressure him.

We also have Undecrease reacting to normal Top, but saying that he wouldn't be able to react to Top moving at hyper-velocity (Mach 8.8).

It really makes no sense to say that characters like Juiz and Andy, and anyone who scales to them, have MHS speed. Top is not that fast normally, and he's the resident speedster that's typically portrayed as being faster than them. He only ever hit MHS speeds after using the armor and going all out.
 
Rizaadxn said:
But how can we say that it's moving at the same speed if it's not extending the same way?
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Nothing implies it has a different speed of extension, Shen actually goes over what he can do with the staff and never says anything about increasing its speed, so going by this I would need you to prove the speed is different here. And wdym extending the same way?

Rizaadxn said:
I also don't think this small little panel used show them going on the offence together has the intention to say "hey look, they're going super fast! As fast as Shen's staff did that one time!" when there's no emphasis on that. It's more likely that the author just thought it would be a cool way for Shen to go up, with no intention of it being as fast as we saw it that one time.
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I don't care what you think the author thought, what's shown is them all moving while the staff is also moving.
You realize this whole trope of "attacking together" is presented several times in the series and other mangas to show characters scaling to one another right?
image0.png


Rizaadxn said:
Juiz deflecting bullets at close range is portrayed as impressive and it does not make contextual sense for these guys to be faster than Top when he started running in his armor (at mach 40 over The Sea of Japan), when in the same chapter as your scan, we see that normal Top was portrayed as being faster, and two chapters after that, Billy using Unstoppable was too fast for Andy despite him being less proficient. We already know that while normal Top can dodge and weave bullets, he's not so fast that they don't pressure him.
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Juiz deflecting them was impressive to Tella, he's never seen Juiz in combat has he? So he can just be impressed by her for the first time. Tella later reacts to everyone from the union with his little satellites. I think you're tryna limit them with really bad points and this one here is extremely out of context.
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Rizaadxn said:
We also have Undecrease reacting to normal Top, but saying that he wouldn't be able to react to Top moving at hyper-velocity (Mach 8.8).
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I'll wait for you to show me Creed reacting to Top and not just spraying in a circle and overwhelming him with an endless amount of bullets. Creed can just not scale to them that's fine as well. Or Top can just have gotten faster acceleration since he likely trained for this war. Creeds just a loser face it.

Rizaadxn said:
It really makes no sense to say that characters like Juiz and Andy, and anyone who scales to them, have MHS speed. Top is not that fast normally, and he's the resident speedster that's typically portrayed as being faster than them. He only ever hit MHS speeds after using the armor and going all out.
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They scale to him in combat and reaction in the mhs tier of speed but overall he's faster and can also accelerate himself to just be faster. Also I brought this up before, but Victor literally fires his hand from space in seconds likely faster than what the staff did and people can fight him like the entire Union can. So yea its just too much to say they don't scale. Also is top ever stated to be the fastest? Also developed Andy literally did combat with Victor and Juiz also did countless combat with Victor, you really think they just don't scale to mhs?

Top hit mhs travel speed not combat speed, you're trying to conflate the two here and its not working.
 
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Another thing that I saw someone bring up was Andy not reacting to Billys unstoppable?
image1.png

...
 
Forgot to send this, but here are the times Shen talks about what the staff can do and considering how important speed can be in a fight he literally never mentions that the speed can be changed or alludes to that.
IMG_2750.png

IMG_2752.png

IMG_2753.png
 
Sorry for the late reply, I forgot to post it.
Nelliels said:
Nothing implies it has a different speed of extension, Shen actually goes over what he can do with the staff and never says anything about increasing its speed, so going by this I would need you to prove the speed is different here. And wdym extending the same way?
Click to expand...
It should be inherently obvious that the speed is different. It's only when it extends super long (up into space) that the implied speed is that fast, there's no other time when Shen uses the staff where the implied speed is the same. It's only during that one instance.

It's not extending the same length, therefore it hasn't extended the same way.

And just about every other speed feat in the series, and the Top vs Creed fight in particular, should tell you that these characters aren't moving at MHS speeds.
Nelliels said:
I don't care what you think the author thought, what's shown is them all moving while the staff is also moving.
Click to expand...
And I do care, ignoring authorial intent to inflate the speed of characters due to a one off panel is silly and throws out stated speed figures and contextual consistency.
Nelliels said:
You realize this whole trope of "attacking together" is presented several times in the series and other mangas to show characters scaling to one another right?
Click to expand...
Okay? And you should realise that the intent of that small panel isn't to show Shen, or anyone else present, is moving at MHS speeds. The supersonic base Top was portrayed as being faster than them, in the same chapter. This already speaks to the fact that Shens staff wasn't moving him at MHS speeds.
Nelliels said:
Juiz deflecting them was impressive to Tella, he's never seen Juiz in combat has he? So he can just be impressed by her for the first time.
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It doesn't matter if it's the first time Tella meets Juiz, if it wasn't meant to be impressive, the author never would have brought it up or portrayed it as a feat that should be considered impressive.
Nelliels said:
Tella later reacts to everyone from the union with his little satellites. I think you're tryna limit them with really bad points and this one here is extremely out of context.
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The fact that Tella finds it impressive that someone can react to and deflect bullets at close range, then later reacts to members of the Union, just speaks to the fact that they aren't moving at MHS speeds. Deflecting bullets simply would not be impressive to him if he can react to and block MHS attacks.

And in fact, I went back just to double check, Tella doesn't just say it's impressive, he says her reflexes must be on another level to do that. That's the author going out of their to emphasise how impressive it is.

You're digging holes in your own reasonings.
Nelliels said:
I think you're tryna limit them with really bad points and this one here is extremely out of context.
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And I think you're ignoring the abundance of contextual evidence and statements, in favor of inflating everyone's speed with a one off panel and speed figure.
Nelliels said:
I'll wait for you to show me Creed reacting to Top and not just spraying in a circle and overwhelming him with an endless amount of bullets.
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We see that Creed was tracking Top running around the walls, and Top was consistently pressured by the hail of bullets. This alone makes it obvious that base Top, while definitely a fast character, is not even remotely close to moving at MHS speeds. The fact that Creed later says Top will accelerate to hypervelocity so he can't react further backs this up, as this means base Top moves at speeds below mach 8.8.

This, again, makes it blatantly obvious that the others aren't moving at MHS speeds.
Nelliels said:
Creed can just not scale to them that's fine as well. Or Top can just have gotten faster acceleration since he likely trained for this war. Creeds just a loser face it.
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?? I don't see how Creed being a loser changes anything.

This fight is one the best examples of speed within the series, and makes it blatantly obvious that other characters are not moving at MHS speeds, when the resident speedster only reached such levels after using his special suit and going all out.
Nelliels said:
Also I brought this up before, but Victor literally fires his hand from space in seconds likely faster than what the staff did and people can fight him like the entire Union can.
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You'd have to prove the timeframe of a still panel, as well as factor in gravity affecting the speed, then ignore every fight where regular bullets can somewhat pressure these characters, and the fact that Andy's or Vic's bullets are never implied to be extraordinarily fast compared to normal bullets and can be shot out of the air with normal bullets.
Nelliels said:
Top hit mhs travel speed not combat speed, you're trying to conflate the two here and its not working.
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In the context of the feat you're trying to use to scale these characters to MHS speed, it most definitely is a travel speed feat.

Shen used the staff to travel a distance, Andy and Juiz also travelled that distance in the same time frame, that would be a travel speed feat.

And "combat" speed, as far as I'm aware, more so refers to a characters reaction speed + limb speed, like how fast they can punch or kick, and whether they're able to move their body to dodge/avoid an attack. Shen (and the others) moved a distance from point A to point B, that doesn't seem like combat speed to me.
Nelliels said:
Another thing that I saw someone bring up was Andy not reacting to Billys unstoppable?
Click to expand...
I didn't say Andy couldn't react to Billy, I just said Billy was too fast for him, which is true. Despite being able to track Unstoppable Billy, he wasn't fast enough to dodge. As already established, normal Top is pressured by a hail of bullets and stated to be slower than Mach 8.8, and Billy is less proficient with his use of Unstoppable.

This, once again, backs up the fact that Andy doesn't have MHS "combat" speed, travel speed or reactions.

If Andy had this supposed MHS "combat" speed, he wouldn't have only reacted to Unstoppable Billy, but also could have dodged him or hit him first while avoiding Billy's kick entirely. Hell, Billy would have been a statue, since Andy would be orders of magnitude faster than Billy.


And even if I accepted your reasoning and said it moved Shen at MHS speeds (which I don't, because base Top, who moves slower than mach 8.8, was portrayed as being faster than them in the same fight, among all the other reasons I've listed), it can easily just be considered an outlier. Barring Top, every speed feat before and after, whether it be a feat, statement, or portrayal, tells us that these characters (Andy, Juiz, and those who scale) are moving at speeds far below massively hypersonic.
 
Rizaadxn said:
And I do care, ignoring authorial intent to inflate the speed of characters due to a one off panel is silly and throws out stated speed figures and contextual consistency.
Click to expand...
You don't know his intent, show evidence if you do.
Rizaadxn said:
I don't see how Creed being a loser changes anything.
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I said two other things.
Rizaadxn said:
This fight is one the best examples of speed within the series, and makes it blatantly obvious that other characters are not moving at MHS speeds, when the resident speedster only reached such levels after using his special suit and going all out.
Click to expand...
I also brought up what Victor did from space and people scale to his attacks. This is getting old.
 
Rizaadxn said:
It should be inherently obvious that the speed is different. It's only when it extends super long (up into space) that the implied speed is that fast, there's no other time when Shen uses the staff where the implied speed is the same. It's only during that one instance.
Click to expand...
prove that.
He does not need to show implications that the speed is fast all the time.
 
I mean sure. I’ve proposed two different forms of speed scaling. The season umas also show mhs feats with spreading their storms across the world
 
Rizaadxn said:
If Andy had this supposed MHS "combat" speed, he wouldn't have only reacted to Unstoppable Billy, but also could have dodged him or hit him first while avoiding Billy's kick entirely. Hell, Billy would have been a statue, since Andy would be orders of magnitude faster than Billy.
Click to expand...
billy is mhs too. He slapped Top and reacts to Shens staff extending, Andy and Juiz. So yea he’s mhs and unstoppable can just increase his speed as we know it does so given he used it and andy couldn’t outright dodge would just mean he’s somewhat above him with unstoppable.
Rizaadxn said:
The fact that Tella finds it impressive that someone can react to and deflect bullets at close range, then later reacts to members of the Union, just speaks to the fact that they aren't moving at MHS speeds. Deflecting bullets simply would not be impressive to him if he can react to and block MHS attacks.

And in fact, I went back just to double check, Tella doesn't just say it's impressive, he says her reflexes must be on another level to do that. That's the author going out of their to emphasise how impressive it is.

You're digging holes in your own reasonings.
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Tella finding someone who he has never seen in combat being on another level after they deflected bullets up close does not at all mean that Juiz is slower than mhs. What this means is that he thinks it’s on another level for her reflexes, which it is, but on another level compared to what? And like I brought up, Tella reacting to Top, who you think is the fastest, should easily put this argument to bed as he himself reacts to someone much faster than bullets. Like I said before, this argument is hugely misinterpreted and shouldn't be brought up again. Another thing, reflexes is not necessarily about speed and more about the reaction being unconscious and happening natural, if I had to give an example it would be more that Juiz is so skilled with her sword that her reflexes with it are on another level compared to others with sword. If you read the fight again, Tella brings up doing it with a sword not just a general speed feat.
Rizaadxn said:
?? I don't see how Creed being a loser changes anything.

This fight is one the best examples of speed within the series, and makes it blatantly obvious that other characters are not moving at MHS speeds, when the resident speedster only reached such levels after using his special suit and going all out.
Click to expand...
I clearly gave other reasons why Creed isn't on their level, not just he's a loser.
Rizaadxn said:
You'd have to prove the timeframe of a still panel, as well as factor in gravity affecting the speed, then ignore every fight where regular bullets can somewhat pressure these characters, and the fact that Andy's or Vic's bullets are never implied to be extraordinarily fast compared to normal bullets and can be shot out of the air with normal bullets.
Click to expand...
single panel? The shot happens in two, First he shoots and next page we already see the hand coming down. How does gravity effect the speed of the hand to become mhs? afaik, the only thing that would effect the hand is no air resistance when its in space but I really don't think its a big effect considering the hand came was coming down and catching on fire so its clearly reaching ablation speeds which iirc are around hypersonic to high hyper and higher but the feat is clearly far above just hypersonic. Well funny enough, I just gave you one implication that Victors hand bullets are fast since they catch on fire. Billys bullets are just slow and I don't remember a time he blitzed someone with them, I mean even Tatiana can react to multiple of them so yea they are slow.

Rizaadxn said:
In the context of the feat you're trying to use to scale these characters to MHS speed, it most definitely is a travel speed feat.

Shen used the staff to travel a distance, Andy and Juiz also travelled that distance in the same time frame, that would be a travel speed feat.

And "combat" speed, as far as I'm aware, more so refers to a characters reaction speed + limb speed, like how fast they can punch or kick, and whether they're able to move their body to dodge/avoid an attack. Shen (and the others) moved a distance from point A to point B, that doesn't seem like combat speed to me.
Click to expand...
I'm not using travel speed feats to scale the characters, I'm using short movements like dashes or jumps which is what Andy and Juiz do. Am I the only one who thinks characters can move short distances at fast speed but not far distances at fast speed unless shown? I mean I'm sure you've read other mangas where characters will move very fast and scale to mhs but they can't cover mhs distances. Raikage is like the most clear example of this concept that I'm referring to. He's rel with lariat, a dashing movement, but isn't considered travel speed. I hope this makes sense to you and others.
Rizaadxn said:
We see that Creed was tracking Top running around the walls, and Top was consistently pressured by the hail of bullets. This alone makes it obvious that base Top, while definitely a fast character, is not even remotely close to moving at MHS speeds. The fact that Creed later says Top will accelerate to hypervelocity so he can't react further backs this up, as this means base Top moves at speeds below mach 8.8.

This, again, makes it blatantly obvious that the others aren't moving at MHS speeds.
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Means Creed isn't very fast. And the hail of bullets is pressure because its actually a danmaku, which is something hard to dodge due to its pattern which a hail of bullets would have that.

Another thing I'd like to point out is that Chikara, the unmove kid, has reacted to bullets and other characters moving with his perception and I shouldn't have to explain why most if not all the union scales above him in speed or combat.

The hypervelocity argument just would apply to Creed since he's the one who can't react. Also hyporvel starts above mach 8.8 not at mach 8.8 and we don't know where that limit is for him. But it seems he isn't good at reacting to base Top.
 
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AnAverageUsername said:
So, couple of weeks have passed. Anything new that's impressive?
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Not much. I been on and off from keeping up with the series but from what I can remember spring has good lifting feats for his body mass and he pulls entire storm clouds over a city.
 
Nelliels said:
Not much. I been on and off from keeping up with the series but from what I can remember spring has good lifting feats for his body mass and he pulls entire storm clouds over a city.
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Wasnt there a scene in the recent chapter where Andy fired some blood into the sky which caused some of the clouds to disperse?
 
So my scaling that I remember for the most part is that Union and Under are generally all scalable to each other in the 8-A tier or lower. Andy scales to Victor now and several scale to Andy so I think if we go off the cloud splitting its likely a few of them are in tier 7. The season Umas beside in durability, scale to multicont.
 
Nelliels said:
So my scaling that I remember for the most part is that Union and Under are generally all scalable to each other in the 8-A tier or lower. Andy scales to Victor now and several scale to Andy so I think if we go off the cloud splitting its likely a few of them are in tier 7. The season Umas beside in durability, scale to multicont.
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Wow, multi continent? Any reason for this?
 
Nelliels said:
Unlikely I think. Verse is really focused on hax so seeing any 6-A feat is probably gonna be rare and not scale to most.
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Yeah, the only really powerful characters would be UMA Galaxy and God right?

Man, I hope this thread picks up traction and popularity. UU is a unique verse that deserves it's own profiles.
 
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