Undead Defiance: The Jammed vs The Vengeful

[Mr. Bambu]

Alex Mercer, in an attempt to undo his past, goes to the Gungeon to seek the Gun That Can Kill The Past. To do so, he must defeat the Lich, Immortal Master of the Gungeon.

Alex Mercer (Prototype 1) vs The Lich. Alex Mercer's non-canon DLC abilities are restricted, speed is equalized, and the battle takes place within the Gungeon proper. Which vengeful undead will win?

(Suggested by someone who I don't remember but at the time I thought it was interesting)

The Lich: 7 (Gargoyle One, Steven, Boogie, Phoenixstorm, Zackmoon, Dargoo, Arrogant)

Alex Mercer:

Incon:

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Bum-Bum-Bumparoo

 

[The_Wright_Way]

Hrm, Mercer has the intelligence advantage and a way to bypass Lich's healing factor. How does Lich use his portals and time manipulation in character?

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Can't say on time manip, it is implied he still can do it but he doesn't on-screen (was implied to have done so in the past).

Portals? He opens with dragging people into Bullet Hell, at which point they have to traverse the area and find him. Or try to get out, I guess, in regards to this wiki. But Bullet Hell is another dimension, so Mercer would be effectively locked there.

Out of curiosity, how does Mercer bypass the healing factor? Just curious, I don't doubt it.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

I can see the following arguments for these edgy boyes.

Mercer: Cannot really absorb the Lich, as he's undead. He has a large intelligence advantage and has the advantage of versatility as far as weaponry goes, being able to form pretty much any weapon imaginable. If the battle wears on, he can slowly adapt to the Lich's own abilities and potentially stalemate him.

The Lich: Danmaku isn't something Mercer has really run into before, and he has one tier higher of Regenerationn. BFR means he can send Mercer into his home field, and force him to fight potentially hundreds of the Gundead (varying from 8-C+ to High 8-C) before making it to the Lich. Immortality gives the Lich a further degree of survivability, being forced into an immortal state of undeath by Kaliber.

 

[The_Wright_Way]

How does being undead prevent absorbing?

 

[Wokistan]

Alex consumes and absorbs biological material, right? The Lich isn't really made of biological material.

 

[Schnee_One]

<Danmaku isn't something alex has dealt with

I mean the entire Elizabeth Greene fight is pretty close to that I'd say.

Also, I'm not really sure how being undead means you can't get absorbed as literally every Supreme hunter is dead and they get consumed fine.

 

[The_Wright_Way]

Yeah, and absorbtion bypasses the Regenerationn problem so my vote goes to Alex.

 

[Schnee_One]

I don't really know why BFRing him to fight 8C and High 8Cs is going to be an issue for an 8A

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Being Undead doesn't prevent absorbing, just the prevention of absorbing his memories since does that to living material. Votes will be added here in a sec.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Also Wokistan is correct, I think. Not sure, but if that is true, the Lich is not biological material. He's undead and pretty much 100% calcium if you see my point. The Lich also has nearly a 3x AP advantage (far from one shot but significant bonus).

 

[Yobo_Blue]

Bones are 100% calcium, Mercer absorbs bone

I don't see the issue

 

[Wokistan]

Calcium actually should be able to be consumed by Alex. He can consume bones and stuff just fine. Doesn't he kinda have to beat his foes into submission for that to be an option for him though?

 

[Yobo_Blue]

Not necessarily

 

[Mr. Bambu]

How does his absorption work, can he just walk up to any given enemy in the game and eat them or?

It has been a very very long time since I interacted with this verse, my apologies.

 

[Yobo_Blue]

Most times he does have to beat them, but mostly that seems to apply towards Blacklight beings, and he seems to be able to absorb normal people pretty easily. Take that as you will tho

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Is it he has to defeat people comparable to him or specifically viruses? I seem to remember screwing around by transforming into military people and using the cool shapeshifting to make weapons. Does Alex open with that, too?

(Also I'm pretty sure that wouldn't classify as Danmaku)

 

[Schnee_One]

Also Wokistan is correct, I think. Not sure, but if that is true, the Lich is not biological material. He's undead and pretty much 100% calcium if you see my point. The Lich also has nearly a 3x AP advantage (far from one shot but significant bonus).

Lich is 450 or so Megatons while Alex is vastly beyond 250 Megatons

He's not even 2x stronger, hardly significant

 

[Schnee_One]

How does his absorption work, can he just walk up to any given enemy in the game and eat them or?

It has been a very very long time since I interacted with this verse, my apologies.

Yes

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Alex base game is just over 120 Tons. Not megatons. Also by any given enemy, this includes beings that, for all intents and purposes, are stronger than him? Can you give a link?

 

[Wokistan]

I feel like people tend to underestimate the meaning of an AP gap. Consider IRL fighting. A full 2x gap is really rare, and shouldn't ever come up in a sanctioned event due to weight classes. Irl fights end fast, when someone gets out a weapon, someone's taken to the ground and is now at a massive disadvantage, someone takes one clean hit that allows the other to capitalize, hell people irl can straight up kill people with physical blows to parts of the neck, especially if the target falls down or something. Being twice as strong as someone AP wise only enhances this difference. Individual blows can be crippling for the purpose of a fight. Now, Alex has Regen, but he can't keep coming back forever, and the Lich's AP advantage allows him to burn through stamina faster than normal for Alex. Not sure rn.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Uh. I'd also like to point out Lich, once again, has better regen and immortalities.

Also, @Wok it is rare, but most irl fights don't end in one-shot. 2-3x quickly becomes a fight in one person's favor, but generally speaking a person can tank a fair amount of hits from people on their level, so one-shot generally starts upwards of 10x, assuming we're using real life standards.

 

[Schnee_One]

Alex base game is just over 120 Tons. Not megatons. Also by any given enemy, this includes beings that, for all intents and purposes, are stronger than him? Can you give a link?

Taking in consumption Multipliers he's double that feat

 

[Wokistan]

Not literally one shot, but they generally end once one person gets an advantage they can capitalize on. Also remember most hits will be blocked or not clean blows. A staggering unblocked ounch straight to the face can give enough of an advantage that a sufficiently skilled fighter can pin/stomp/choke/whatever off of the time they get from that.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

This is Mercer's feat, at 127.16 Tons of TNT

This is Lich's feat, at 453.44 Tons of TNT

Lich is 3.57x stronger than base-game Alex.

 

[Schnee_One]

Taking in consumption Multipliers he's double that feat

You know what a multiplier is correct?

 

[Mr. Bambu]

That's true @Woki, a higher AP in a raw fight makes it go one way pretty quickly, especially when Lich can summon tons of attacks on this level via Danmaku, but Alex is a relatively skilled fighter, he could stall by attempting to block attacks. Not all attacks, due to the sheer volume, but still.

 

[The_Wright_Way]

This is Mercer's feat, at 127.16 Tons of TNT

This is Lich's feat, at 453.44 Tons of TNT

Lich is 3.57x stronger than base-game Alex.

Again, that's an early game feat and it's super casual. He's stronger by the end game.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

@Garg We don't do multipliers, we know he is unquantifiably stronger than that.

@Wright True, but see above. He's stronger, but without resorting to multipliers, we don't have an exact number on that. All we know is that he is somewhere weaker than Lich.

 

[Yobo_Blue]

>We don't do multipliers

Are you sure about that?

 

[Mr. Bambu]

> Are you sure about that?

we've changed the rules recently and I didn't notice, didn't we

In that case if you can get me a scan of a canon multiplier we'll have his AP.

 

[Schnee_One]

Alright seems I need to go over this

The very beginning of the game Alex Tanks a 127 Ton feat

Taking in the fact that he gets stronger with every being he has consumed to an unknown degree, his power multiplies by 2x every time he consumes someone to gain their power.

He absorbs Elizabeth Greene who is well above the Alex at the beginning of the Game, making Alex after consuming Greene vastly beyond 264 Tons due to how casual the feat was+How strong that Alex was+Him consuming Greene+Everything else of the millions he consumed

The AP is in Lich's favor, but it's not that notable

 

[Schnee_One]

@Garg We don't do multipliers, we know he is unquantifiably stronger than that

Not true, we actually accepted them since then

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Yeah rule changes are fun. If you can get me a canon statement to support all this then Lich's AP advantage is made significantly less notable.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Though I'm still not sure how Mercer bypasses the Lich's regen/immortality. Absorbing bypasses regen (assuming Mercer can absorb non-living material) but Type 4 Immortality?

 

[The_Wright_Way]

Though I'm still not sure how Mercer bypasses the Lich's regen/immortality. Absorbing bypasses regen (assuming Mercer can absorb non-living material) but Type 4 Immortality?

Will his body still come back if he's been completely absorbed?

 

[Wokistan]

Is it really combat applicable? He's stuck all the way down deep in bullet hell, and he seems to only be able to grab you from the room in the forge with the gun that kills the past.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

@Wok We're not talking about BFR, talking about Immortality.

And... I don't see why not, Wright? That's never happened but then again, a Type 4 Immortal has never happened to Mercer. Basically, Kaliber wants Lich to suffer for all of eternity because he has a mastery over "gun magic" that even she lacked, as in, crafting the original Gun that Can Kill the Past. So... I believe yes.

 

[Schnee_One]

Though I'm still not sure how Mercer bypasses the Lich's regen/immortality. Absorbing bypasses regen (assuming Mercer can absorb non-living material) but Type 4 Immortality?

Isn't Type 4 almost useless?