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Why dont you think it's enough? its pretty much text book high 1-A.
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Umineko Revision 3: The New Tiering System
- Thread starter Ovy7
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Yeah High 1A+ looks fine honestly
Karabach-barabach
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I'm fine with High 1-A+ too, if tier 0 won't work. But it's still sad to see Umineko getting fumbled yet again by the tiering system...
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Karabach-barabach
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seeing the hierarchy as fiction and being completely inaccessible to that hierachy is high 1-A.
Characters or objects who transcend 1-A characters in the same vein that 1-A characters transcend the rest of the system.
This is exactly what the Third Domain does.
a "meta-quality" is just funny VSB terminology to simplify this difference, from what i read.
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It's not. It's not because you have a bigger gap between you and the other layers that you don't work under the same genus. I already asked Ultima numerous time about that kind of stuff would still be only 1-A+.
Being inaccessible to 1-A+ =/= Being High 1-A. This is like saying an inaccessible cardinal is beyond maths because it can't be reached by aleph.
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by nature of existing outside of the witch domain, they dont work under the same framework.
the witch domain is a infinite ladder of evolution.
the 3rd domain actually has its OWN infinite hierarchy, which is again, textbook high 1-a.
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Literally the same logic as aleph omega^aleph omega = inaccessible cardinal when it's not
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whats being argued isnt that, but the fact that the 3rd domain's transcendence over the witch domain is the same in nature that they transcend the human domain.
the 3rd domain is completely outside the witch hierarchy.
which is exactly what the tier asks for.
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That moment when the Genus of "layers of reality" encompass the human domain, the witch domain and Featherine one, making them work all under the same.
Higher into 1-A+.
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I dont get the argument here.
huh? i literally quoted the tiering system and explained why the third domain just being witch domain^2 doesnt make any sense.
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Did you read Ultima's blog about Genus / High 1-A? I'm just stating the same here.
People need to understand that not everything is written on the TS and that, frankly, the explanation blog is a must to understand the whole picture.
If you assume that the witch domain work under maths, the hierarchy would go to High 1-B. Then, you get Featherine domain that is inaccessible to it, no matter how high the witch domain can go. (Let's ignore the R>F for the comparison I'm making).
Now, what makes Featherine domain, in the situation I've stated, to be anything more than an inaccessible cardinal? Would you say it's above maths merely because the witch domain (High 1-B hierarchy/aleph) can't reach her?
If the whole genus doesn't change (that's the case in this example but it's the same in the actual situation), it means that it's still confined/encompassed by said Genus. It's not because Featherine has a "bigger" gap, be it mathematical or metaphysical, than the things below her that it enough for High 1-A.
A way to achieve High 1-A for Featherine, in my understanding at least, would be to say that she isn't "inaccessible" to lower layers of reality, but that she transcend the very genus of "layers of reality" and that she operate on something much higher.
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yeah
Karabach-barabach
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You can have tier 0 even if the verse itself is 6-C at max, so this is also possible
Edit: I think I reacted to the notif a little bit too fast... fastest fingers in the West, I guess)
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But Featherine is not just a qualitative superiority over the whole ladder.
Such as how Witches transcend quantity system of the Human Domain by having a qualitative superiority over the Human Domain, Featherine transcends the quality system of the Witch Domain by having a greater level of existence.
Which is a literal example in FAQ of how you can reach High 1-A.
Furthermore, Featherine's True Form sees the difference between Quantity (Human Domain, Ikuko Hachijo) and Quality (Witch Domain, Featherine) as trivial, as 2 backgrounds she can change at will/2 temporal roles an actor has. It being outside of the Witch Domain's hierarchy as whole is just supportive evidence
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Look, I had the VERY SAME reasoning as you. Ultima said it doesn't work. That's as simple as that.
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Ultima is the one who wrote that stuff on the FAQ so lets just wait for his input
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Idk the reason why Ultima said it didn't work in your case, so can't argue with that. But saying "Featherine is just an inaccessible cardinal in Witch Domain's hierarchy" just doesn't seem right.
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It's an analogy, obviously it's flawed but the idea was more "simply being inaccessible doesn't equate High 1-A"
But as someone else said, let's just wait for his input.
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The third domain is when you transcend becoming a witch, and become a god. There are 2 extremes in the umineko verse. The extreme that creates fate, and the extreme that gets tossed around by it.
The human domain is the latter. They cannot create anything of their own, but they have the firmest "ground" to stand on.
Second is the witch domain, the "middle" of the two extremes. They can start to control their own fate, but are still limited by some restrictions.
The third domain is the former extreme, where there is pretty much no restrictions, and the only restriction left is your sense of self/meaning. Unlike the witch domain, where its a journey of self evolution, the third domain is pretty much the journey of "you" slowly crumbling away as you ascend to the level of a creator.
essentially, the third domain hierarchy is measuring the ontological "closeness" to a creator, rather than strict r>f layers.
there is a very clear difference in classification.
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I mean, sure, still it clearly develops the subject in such a way it's clearly more insightful than what is currently in the TS.
As for the rest, I already said my piece, I'm not going to argue again and again, we'll just wait for Ultima and see what he thinks even though I'm quite sure he wouldn't change his mind.
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i guess
i was more so proving there is an ontological and classification difference, so it isnt just a mere "higher step" into reality. The hierachy even has an entirely different purpose.
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i just remembered the existence of a 07th expansion crossover thing, which actually elevates higurashi and higanbana characters in a meta-layer (not sure which layer, probably in the COB)
high 1-A higurashi!
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I’ll paste one of my comments from another thread.
Also as an additional note: featherine sees the superiority between the witch and human domains as “trivial” and nonexistent in a sense, regarding her witch and human avatars as the “same existence” because of this. It’s clear she doesn’t operate on the framework of the witch domain.
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That's not really the case.
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That is directly what piece says. She says Featherine has reached that peak, and was dissatisfied,as she had no more restrictions.
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It seems to be saying moreso she touched upon the domain but then realized that it wouldn't be in her best interest to actually ascend to being such. Featherine isn't really a creator.
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Yea though, that doesn't necessarily mean Featherine became a creator, it would make the most logical sense that she returned before entering that domain, after realizing what it meant to transcend the last remaining limitation she had, which in this case would be her ego, and sense of "self." The "peak" piece refers to is about the ascension when one loses and gives up their individuality, and as you said, would crumble more and more the closer you get to that domain, which Featherine reached the highest heights. Without treading over to the other side.
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The big issue with that is that Piece says Featherine had absolutely 0 restrictions left imposed on her,though. Which would include her sense of self, and would explain why she needs the device. To make sure she doesn’t accidentally ascend to a creator again, and to maintain her self.
It wouldn’t make sense for piece to say “My Lord has reached the absolute peak!” And that….not being what happened. Ryukishi even likens a creators struggles to that of Featherine’s.
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I would say that, for example, if the only thing that we had were scans saying that Featherine "exists in a higher world", it would just be another 1-A+ layer into the hierarch. However, with that much of context, there's just no other way to see this as High 1-A.
To quote from the tiering system page:
"Characters or objects who transcend 1-A characters in the same vein that 1-A characters transcend the rest of the system. That is to say: If there is a hierarchy of 1-A layers, each of which operates within the same framework, with the same "algorithm" dictating the difference between them, a High 1-A character would transcend the framework entirely, and instead operate on a different, higher hierarchy, governed by another, likewise higher algorithm. In other words, whereas 1-A is a qualitative superiority, High 1-A represents a "meta"-qualitative superiority."
Featherine comes from a higher world, as said. She views the entire of the 1-A+ hierarch as a piece of paper that she can manipulate at will, where the rules that compose the Witch Domain doesn't matter to her. She also views this entire structure as a story, a gameboard, and all of it's inhabitants - including 1-A+ voyager witches - as just harmless characters. Her human (10-B) and witch (1-A+) avatars have the same value to her, that is, they are just roles an actor takes in a story. And the biggest supporting point, if what I wrote isn't enough, is that Lambdadelta, who can ascend infinitely through this 1-A+ hierach basically describes herself as nothing when compared to the Gods in the Third Domain - which indeed proves truth as Featherine's witch avatar one-shot and killed her without any, little effort, seeing her as a character in the script - the script of the entire 1-A+ Witch Domain.
It's BLATANTLY High 1-A. It's as almost as if Featherine and the Third Domain were made for this tier.
To quote from the tiering system page:
"Characters or objects who transcend 1-A characters in the same vein that 1-A characters transcend the rest of the system. That is to say: If there is a hierarchy of 1-A layers, each of which operates within the same framework, with the same "algorithm" dictating the difference between them, a High 1-A character would transcend the framework entirely, and instead operate on a different, higher hierarchy, governed by another, likewise higher algorithm. In other words, whereas 1-A is a qualitative superiority, High 1-A represents a "meta"-qualitative superiority."
Featherine comes from a higher world, as said. She views the entire of the 1-A+ hierarch as a piece of paper that she can manipulate at will, where the rules that compose the Witch Domain doesn't matter to her. She also views this entire structure as a story, a gameboard, and all of it's inhabitants - including 1-A+ voyager witches - as just harmless characters. Her human (10-B) and witch (1-A+) avatars have the same value to her, that is, they are just roles an actor takes in a story. And the biggest supporting point, if what I wrote isn't enough, is that Lambdadelta, who can ascend infinitely through this 1-A+ hierach basically describes herself as nothing when compared to the Gods in the Third Domain - which indeed proves truth as Featherine's witch avatar one-shot and killed her without any, little effort, seeing her as a character in the script - the script of the entire 1-A+ Witch Domain.
It's BLATANTLY High 1-A. It's as almost as if Featherine and the Third Domain were made for this tier.
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Guardian_Doge
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Most of this is fine, I just disagree for tier 0 creators obviously.
I wouldn't say the contradictions surrounding it being tier 0 are as major as the lack of evidence for it but primarily it's good to mention them anyway;
Creators are not a source or indivisible essence/simplicity
They also possess an ability to act in some way which is not from their own self-interacting actuality
And they definitely aren't the core of everything's being as a reachable state, they simply do not require recognition
I think at best you can assume that as "God's'" they have a kind of omnipresence like witches but even so that's very ambiguous.
H1-A is also contentious to a degree but it's favorable in my opinion, the system of the unnamed domain seems to be above any measure of witches as a whole, that's why they're hardly distinct from the creator (or plural creators that's a different topic honestly), and even though they're still on the ladder I think the way lambdadelta phrases them as entities so high up that maybe the only prominent restrictions are existential ones to maintain a sense of self so the notion of the hierarchy of witches probably becomes trivial at that level like it is to featherine's true self.
I wouldn't say the contradictions surrounding it being tier 0 are as major as the lack of evidence for it but primarily it's good to mention them anyway;
Creators are not a source or indivisible essence/simplicity
They also possess an ability to act in some way which is not from their own self-interacting actuality
And they definitely aren't the core of everything's being as a reachable state, they simply do not require recognition
I think at best you can assume that as "God's'" they have a kind of omnipresence like witches but even so that's very ambiguous.
H1-A is also contentious to a degree but it's favorable in my opinion, the system of the unnamed domain seems to be above any measure of witches as a whole, that's why they're hardly distinct from the creator (or plural creators that's a different topic honestly), and even though they're still on the ladder I think the way lambdadelta phrases them as entities so high up that maybe the only prominent restrictions are existential ones to maintain a sense of self so the notion of the hierarchy of witches probably becomes trivial at that level like it is to featherine's true self.
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Guardian_Doge
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Rakih_Elyan
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Also High 1-A sound probable, but Ultima said it wasn't enough.
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I yapped about it in the other thread,but witch domain featherine went through an infinite cycle of life and death at some point that allowed her to keep jumping meta-layers each time she came back to life.
Third domain beings are explicitly beyond life and death,meaning they’re beyond any extension of it, which would logically include witch domain featherines funny reincarnation shenanigans,which allows her to infinitely jump on its layers.
Therefore, the third domain should also be beyond any extension of these layers as well.
Rakih_Elyan
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Ah yes, Chinamen higher realms logic. 1-A but still bound to life and death.
I think it's just higher ontology in 1-A+ than straight up skipping to High 1-A in my opinion.
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China x Japan collaboration, VSBW is repairing international conflicts.
How so? The 3rd domain operates completely different hierarchical wise
Rakih_Elyan
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I don't know bruh, I think it just a higher ontology than an entire hierarchy altogether.
Also, I would like to be pointed to the scans in the OP that are supporting this.
