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Type 5 Immortality Changes

Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot

Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot

VS Battles
Retired VSB Bureaucrat
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As some of you may be aware, there has been confusion, both recently and in the past, as to what exactly Type 5 Immortality means and who it applies to. As such, we are changing the definition in an attempt to make it more clear, as well as better show what non-Tier 0 characters are able to have this on their pages. This is the current idea for the new definition:

"Inability to suffer any kind of death or annihilation on a fundamental level, due to the character being completely beyond such concepts. Typically requires a character to be at least very high-end Outerverse level, and only questionable omnipotents have this by default."

Comments are appreciated, even if just to acknowledge awareness of the change. Thank you.
 
Just so people can compare this to the similar type 10 immortality:

Type 10: Entities that are not alive or dead in a conventional sense, standing outside the ordinary laws of reality, temporality, and dimensionality (of any number). If it is possible to destroy such a character, it can only be accomplished by a being of a similar or higher existence.
 
I do not like this definition very much, it sounds like Type 10.

IMO, this type of immortality should be given by some quality, such as the metaphysical necessity. By the way, I had posted a post on another wiki about it (in Portuguese). In modal logic, there is a concept called "possible world", which deals with necessity, contingency and impossibility, in relation to truths. For immortality, what I think is important is part of the necessity. A necessary being is a being that exists in all possible worlds, i.e., that there is no possible world where that being does not exist (I must point out that possible world is not a universe or an alternative reality, possible world is just a counterfactual situation that It did not happen but it could have happened; do not confuse this with the possibility approach in quantum physics). A necessary being could not die simply because there is not a possible world in which he is dead.

This is a rather complex subject, and a little bit of knowledge about modal logic is needed to understand it. If necessary, I can explain the subject, or provide sources that explain.
 
Hmm. It is true that type 5 and type 10 will turn similar if we change the definition.

Azathoth, do you have any ideas regarding how to solve this?

I would also appreciate input from the rest of the staff.
 
Nothing's wrong with the current definition. Type 5 should be limited to High 1-As and 0s, the rare exception of 1-As with such immortality would be due to some relationship similar to the Outer Gods and Yog-Sothoth. This is fundamentally different from Type 10, which is just the inability to die because you're 1-A.
 
I think it's fine how it is.

The Type 10 Immortality has always been slightly confusing due to the wording of this:

"Entities that are not alive or dead in a conventional sense, standing outside the ordinary laws of reality, temporality, and dimensionality (of any number)"

Why wouldn't someone in this tier be alive or dead in a conventional sense? Wouldn't that also apply to High 1-A/0s?

Edit: Ninja'd
 
Okay. Perhaps we have to remove the type 5 immortality rating from some of the 1-A Cthulhu mythos characters that currently have it then?
 
I don't know. I think any Outer God should have it but I'm no expert. All other 1-As have type 10 by default.
 
I think Outer Gods should be fine, since they are eternal aspects of Yog-Sothoth, implying that they cannot be "destroyed" that concept doesn't apply to them outside of Azathoth waking up. And even that could just mean they return to being whole with their master, like an elimination of perspective.

This is different from Umineko because in order for them to rejoin the Creator they have to ascend that infinite 1-A ladder. Outer Gods don't. Their connection to their creator is much different.
 
The problem is that the current type 5 Immortality text says:

"Complete and utter inability to ever die. This is typically reserved for questionable omnipotents."

Do you have a better suggestion?
 
I still stand by the fact that the second sentence and the fact that every example listed is a Tier 0 has led to the most confusion.
 
Yes. We need to revise the definition somehow. Perhaps Sera has some ideas?
 
Same for me.

I mean, Type 5 is restricted to High 1-As and 0s. So far, only Outer Gods are an exception due to their connections to a High 1-A.
 
Well, we should preferably clarify which types of 1-A characters that can be included.
 
DaFritzi sent me the following suggestion:

"Inability to suffer any kind of death or annihilation on a fundamental level, due to the character being completely beyond such concepts. Typically requires a character to be at least very high-end Outerverse level. Those characters can only be truly and permanently destroyed by a questionable omnipotent. Questionable omnipotents, who have this ability by default, cannot be destroyed at all."

I am not particularly fond of it myself, and would prefer better suggestions.
 
Death in Harry Potter with Type 5 immortality? Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm..

Also I feel "on a fundamental level" leaves a lot of room for interpretation.
 
I think it should be (with tweaks if some staff want it tweaked)

"Characters who are inable to suffer any death or destruction through any possible means that exist on every single fundamental level of existence. This is generally reserved for Tier 0 characters, however sometimes in special cases, High-End Outerversals and High Outerversal characters can gain this ability as well."
 
Hmm. I would still prefer some better wording. Sorry.
 
I was thinking of remodeling this entirely, mainly through an immortality type that we don't have.

Namely, Immortality by being beyond traditional forms of life and/or death.

An example of this would be Unicron, who says that death is merely a corporeal facsimile of his will, and that he is beyond such things.

Of course, this doesn't HAVE to be a thing, but it's just my thoughts.
 
Well, type 10 is beyond conventional life and death. Type 5 is exclusive to tier 0, High 1-A, and a specific type of 1-A that are sustained by a type 0.
 
Thing is, I don't feel like Type 10 encompasses what I'm talking about, since it's reserved for 1-A and above.

There are plenty of 3-D/4-D characters unbound by life or death. Unicron in my example, Dementors from Harry Potter, the Darkness from Supernatural, the Types from the Nasuverse, etc.

By remodeling Type 5 into that, I feel like we can cover it well, and remove an immortality type that, in my opinion, is fairly redundant.
 
What do you think, Azathoth and Sera?
 
There's also characters like the Greek Gods in Riordan's works, who can't actually die, only have their essence scattered or fade from existence after having their thrones of power or their sphere of influence destroyed.

I'm also on board with revising Type 5, since I feel that it's redundant with Type 10 around (and we never deal in absolutes on this site, so I'm not keen on the idea of something being completely unable to die).

I'll try to come up with something for Type 5 if we keep it though.
 
I'm really a big fan of Ever's suggestion here, it's something that's bothered me for a while. (The lack of immortality for such a thing, and also the best type of immortality being such a random number).

"There's also characters like the Greek Gods in Riordan's works, who can't actually die, only have their essence scattered or fade from existence after having their thrones of power or their sphere of influence destroyed."

I think that'd just be some combo of Type 2 and 4?
 
In regards to the actual Greek Gods, they kinda... can't die.

Even the stronger gods can't kill the weaker gods which is why they trap the Titans in Tartarus and not kill them.
 
I like the idea of adding an immortality that covers being unbound by conventional life and death.

I do, however, think we should keep the immortality/an immortality similar to the one that is currently represented by Type 5, as well. Type 10 is quite literally just achieved by being part of what is actually one of the widest possible tiers on the wiki. There really should be something to express a truly transcendent form of immortality that reflects the complete inability to suffer any kind of death or destruction, as it is something that applies to all Tier 0s and (almost all?) High 1-As, as well as certain extremely high end 1-A characters.
 
Well, we could just make a Type 11?

It being the final number makes more sense than just being arbitrarily 5.
 
@Matt

Type 2 seems obscenely specific. Like, the type of immortality where you could survive having your body blown apart, but couldn't recover from it, I guess?
 
Type 2 is still surviving injuries that would logically kill you.

I.E. being reduced to your head and still interacting with stuff.
 
So overall, Type 5 will be replaced with my idea, while the current one is shifted to Type 11?

I also wonder if Sun Wukong would qualify for the new Type 5.
 
@The Everlasting

I think what is being suggested is that we reword type 5, and move your idea to type 11, or at least that would cause us the least amount of work revising profiles.
 
That said, this would leave us with types 5, 10, and 11 intersecting with each other's areas.
 
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