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Two Fate Manipulators go head to head

Naito-desu

Naito-desu

4,981
1,742
Tzeentch vs Ren Amamiya, who's got stronger Fate Manipulation?
  • Battle takes place in the Warp
  • Both are low 1-C; Avatar of Tzeentch is used/True Endgame Joker is used
  • Joker has his standard equipment
  • Speeds are equalized
Tzeentch:

Joker:
 
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What Akira's fate manipulation even is? I think it only comes from the statement of defying fate which is vague and hard to get potency from
 
Basically he is capable of defying predetermined fate versus Tzeentch being the literal architect of them, the one who makes them. I'll personally go out on a limb and say Ren's is weaker because it defies causality that binds only up to Type 4 Acausals (Irregular Causality), with Tzeentch having Type 5 acausality (Transcending Causality)
 
Naitodesu said:
Basically he is capable of defying predetermined fate versus Tzeentch being the literal architect of them, the one who makes them. I'll personally go out on a limb and say Ren's is weaker because it defies causality that binds only up to Type 4 Acausals (Irregular Causality), with Tzeentch having Type 5 acausality (Transcending Causality)
Click to expand...
What is Akira's fate manip based on?
 
Joker's passive fate manip comes from him being the Trickster, basically being that he will defy any sort of fate or destiny imposed upon him. This causality that he defies is something that binds even gods in the Personaverse (who are Type 4 Acausals), so essentially if it is his fate to die or lose, he can essentially shrug it off because he can shrug off any fate imposed upon him that's within Type 4 Acausality or lower.
 
Here is the list of screenshots that can help explain it

That being said, I'm thinking his Fate Manipulation won't be as potent here, not just because Tzeentch is the literal weaver of fates, but his Type 5 Causality means he's not bound by the same causality that Joker manipulates. It's a different matter entirely if Joker could defy the Fate Manip of Tzeentch, but whatever chances Tzeentch has won't be affected at all because he transcends the causality that Joker only defies.
 
Also it's going to be a mess to look through Tzeentch's resistances since he basically resists whatever the other Chaos Gods do, meaning I'd have to work through four profiles just to explain it lol
 
Oooh interesting I would never have thought of this one...if I had to put my money on one of them, it'd probably be on Tzeentch, as Tzeentch like all the other Chaos Gods resist each others abilities and Aethyr Manip as a whole, this would basically cover all of Joker's meaningful hax that could really help him here, he even resists Resistance Negation ironically (though how this would affect Ren's own resistance negation I'm unsure) Though in turn Tzeentch wouldn't be able to properly kill Joker (High Godly puts a crimp to that) either, but I do think he'd definitely be able to incap, as if he is pushed into a corner he can always potentially try and pull a Sigmar and seal Joker. So I guess it'd really come down to how Joker's fate manip would affect this if at all since it seems to be the only thing that going to really save him here.
 
Joker's Fate Manip only defies an overarching causality that only affects up to Type 4 Acausal beings and Tzeentch is Acausality 5. I'm convinced that Ren's Fate Manip won't affect Tzeentch, but I'm personally lost on what Tzeentch could do to Joker, I think his best bet would be corruption maybe? I'm not well versed enough to see what Tzeentch could meaningfully do
 
Tzeentch has Madness manipulation type 3, his corruption could also be affective here as beings who are infinitely weaker (like Archaon and Be'lakor) are capable of corrupting and breaking down reality simply by their presence alone so if Joker doesn't resist that it could spell his doom as well since he'd essentially be in the "nuclear reactor core" as it were in terms of source of chaos corruption, where it'd be affecting him physically, conceptually, spiritually and mentally. All of the Chaos Gods also have both passive and active forms of absorption (i'm unsure of how this would work on Joker as it seems he resists a form of absorption but it's kind of vague what it does) that lets them absorb everything from concepts, abstract ideas, thoughts, memories, souls, emotions and basically everything involving what makes a person a person. Tzeentch is also specifically capable of sealing other gods on his level, leaving them utterly helpless (this worked on Sigmar who resists sealing, and was trapped for around 2000 years if ignoring time wimey chaos shenanigans)
 
Personas give Mind and Madness Manip Resistance (Persona 2 dudes fought Cthulhu and didn't go mad), not sure if Personas + Joker can resist Corruption or Sealing.
 
Soma_King said:
Tzeentch has Madness manipulation type 3,
Click to expand...
Joker resists Madness Manipulation, and higher with Cognition.

Soma_King said:
corruption could also be affective here as beings who are infinitely weaker (like Archaon and Be'lakor) are capable of corrupting and breaking down reality simply by their presence alone so if Joker doesn't resist that it could spell his doom as well since he'd essentially be in the "nuclear reactor core" as it were in terms of source of chaos corruption, where it'd be affecting him physically, conceptually, spiritually and mentally.
Click to expand...
Corruption gets dealt with by Detox, which nullifies all status ailments instantly.

Soma_King said:
All of the Chaos Gods also have both passive and active forms of absorption (i'm unsure of how this would work on Joker as it seems he resists a form of absorption but it's kind of vague what it does) that lets them absorb everything from concepts, abstract ideas, thoughts, memories, souls, emotions and basically everything involving what makes a person a person.
Click to expand...
Joker resists absorption,


Soma_King said:
Tzeentch has Madness manipulation type 3, his corruption could also be affective here as beings who are infinitely weaker (like Archaon and Be'lakor) are capable of corrupting and breaking down reality simply by their presence alone so if Joker doesn't resist that it could spell his doom as well since he'd essentially be in the "nuclear reactor core" as it were in terms of source of chaos corruption, where it'd be affecting him physically, conceptually, spiritually and mentally. All of the Chaos Gods also have both passive and active forms of absorption (i'm unsure of how this would work on Joker as it seems he resists a form of absorption but it's kind of vague what it does) that lets them absorb everything from concepts, abstract ideas, thoughts, memories, souls, emotions and basically everything involving what makes a person a person. Tzeentch is also specifically capable of sealing other gods on his level, leaving them utterly helpless (this worked on Sigmar who resists sealing, and was trapped for around 2000 years if ignoring time wimey chaos shenanigans)
Click to expand...
Joker resists sealing, too.
 
It basically breaks down all of existence as it is it's antithesis, the more chaos energy/corruption there is, the less things are as they should be; reality warps, time unravels, physics cease to be, impossible things start to become common, the abstract, the material and the spiritual all blend together and the lines become indistinguishable. When it comes to a mortal interacting with Chaos, it starts in the mind usually, causing people to either go insane or become evil, eitherway almost always devoting their souls and lives to Chaos, but it also stains the soul, and affects the body as well, causing sickness, disease, mutation, there isn't really a solid lock on it or exact symptom as it kind of affects everyone in a unique way but it always ties back to them falling to chaos one way or another. Hell, in the Warhammer Fantasy supplement Tome of Chaos, two of the hundreds of examples they use is literally your Skeleton gaining sentience and bursting out of you to run around freely or a second you (who is evil) partially growing out of and now sharing your body and has a say in what you do. This is all the basic things too, nothing of the direct contact with a Chaos God or it actually trying to affect you, this is just things from like Be'lakor or Archaon or even just simple warpstone, like comparing a microwave to Chernobyl.
 
Can it pierce through resistances though, Joker does have a pretty potent resistance to Mind and Madness Manip, but Morality Manip is up in the air for him I suppose? For both parties I suggest looking up Cognitive Physiology and Aethyr Manipulation to get a full grasp of both parties' abilities and resistances. Also suggest looking up the other Chaos Gods to see Tzeentch's resistances.
 
yes, it has worked on warrior priests of Sigmar who are divinely protected by the Godking and while Stormcast Eternals are more resistant they are still affected to some degree, and it has also worked on powerful wizards, even the Lumineth Realm-Lords who were assigned to protect Slaanesh's prison and specifically given special protections where still eventually effected. The only things that seem to be the closest to being truly unaffected are the Lizardmen/Seraphon as they are direct creations of the Old Ones to combat and repel Chaos as a whole and a small handful of Gods. The main problem is it never initially appears as an outright attack on them unless like the Chaos God is literally actively trying to weaponize it against you, it's usually way more subtle, ever so slightly turning your ideals towards the path of Chaos until it's too late (Archaon being the best example for that as he was originally one of his era's greatest champions of Sigmar), to which you then get a Chaos mark and are forever the slave to that Chaos God.

Mind you, whether this would work on Joker is another thing entirely.
And actually while on the subject, which key are we using for Tzeentch and is Joker 5D or 6D? i probably should have asked that in the beginning
 
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I'm pretty sure Joker is 5-D, Avatar of Tzeentch should be 5-D (I updated the OP) but has 6-D passives
 
I believe so at least, but I'm going to have to take a deep dive into Warhammer lore to verify again
 
were still talking about Tzeentch fantasy right?
whats the lore/feat why is it 6D?
 
Tzeenches abstract self that transcends his avatar radiates an aura that draws in absorbs countless souls in the realm of chaos and causes them to forget who they are.
 
I think this is incon now. Tzeentch can't really deal with his High Godly and Joker can't really deal with Tzeentchs conceptual type 8 immortality
 
he resists everything on Aethyr Manipulation page

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Aethyr Manipulation

As Volans, the first Patriarch of the Colleges of Magic so aptly sums it up, the Aethyr is the Void, the final element of existence - the intangible element that has no visible or quantifiable form in it's own right. It has no dimension, mass or volume yet is still everywhere. It has no...
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I don't see information manipulation or resistance negation, so what stops Joker from using Stagnant Air and hitting him with an Ailment and incapping him?
 
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