Two characters with mindhax way above their tier fight: Homura Akemi vs Jace Beleren

[Wokistan]

Homura Akemi vs Jace Belere

Homulilly form for Homura, though I don't know what would be the fairest one so if this isn't good let me know

Speed equal due to vague speed for Jace

Nobody can leave the barrier if it is still present

Both start within range of eachother

SBA otherwise

Homura Akemi: 2 (Dargoo Faust, ABoogieYesSir)

Jace Belere:

Inconclusive:

 

[Wokistan]

Bump

 

[Wokistan]

Bump

 

[Kaltias]

How is Jace's resistance to time manipulation?

 

[Wokistan]

Off the top of my head, I have no idea, but blue has spells like that and Jace can counter/use them himself, ill see if I can find anything. Doesn't Homura usually open with mindhax, and if close enough drain?

 

[Kaltias]

Her mind hax is actually subconscious (So kinda like Nihilus).

But she is still Homura (and more importantly she actually keeps her old personality) so time stop is likely as an opening move.

 

[Wokistan]

He resists her mindhax, though I doubt he can output high 2A mindhax so its probably a situation like dura being way better than AP, but he's resisted stuff from the eldrazi and I'm pretty sure Kozilek displayed passive time hax or something at one point, could be wrong about that. Time manip is a pretty big part of blue though, and Jace is a master in that color, as well as countering, so I feel like he should have decent resists to it. He may be one of the paradox immune MTG chars due to Ugin's revival changing a lot of things, but I'll check on that. From what I can tell, Homura's best wincon is probably drain, but idk the speed of that.

 

[Kaltias]

Her drain is instant (on 3-D people) and her BFR sends people to a different multiverse so it could be far enough to get rid of Jace (also the local inhabitants would probably eat him), but she needs to be close to do that.

Although if he has time manip of his own it should be added

 

[Wokistan]

I don't think he's ever personally used it, its just a staple of blue and as such he should be capable. Part of the reason I made this match actually was to see what would come up in vs debating so I could make sure the profile has what it needs, as well as someone who wont get insta mindhaxxed by Homura while also not stomping her for a change.

 

[Wokistan]

Jace can plainswalk at will, which can take people across multiverses, is Homura affected by illusions? He usually opens with that and mindhax.

 

[Kaltias]

Isn't planeswalking between universes?

Homura's BFR sends people to the World of Witches, which is beyond the current multiverse which includes all the infinite timelines and the void between them.

Illusions, depends. Holograms and such work but are mitigated by her extrasensory perception.

How potent is Jace's mind hax? Homura's mind resistance allows her to resist being mind haxed from people who can control a fortress + garrison.

 

[Wokistan]

I may be thinking of Oldwalkers with multiversal planeswalk then, but idk if she can close the gap for that stuff if Jace can 1 shot by AP. He's utterly destroyed the minds of several other blue masters, and has the aforementioned resistance to Emrakul, but I don't think he can output 5D mindhax. His best feats seem to be defensive or on his card which may be game mechanics, and a lot of his offensive stuff seems unquantifiable. He's still got a huge AP advantage if her barriers can be countered.

 

[Kaltias]

Her barrier is a city sized thing akin to a pocket dimension. It's the thing sustaining her type 8

 

[Wokistan]

No, I mean what her planet level Dura is listed under, unless its the same reason. By counter, I was referring to what would be considered his power null. If the witches create their barriers to sustain themselves, don't they basically have type 8 relying on themselves?

 

[Wokistan]

He evaporated an entire sea, so if it doesn't have planet dura power nulling it should be within his capabilities.

 

[Wokistan]

Also, Jace is explicitly referred to as poor in melee. I don't think he would get in range of her drain/BFR if he could avoid it, even without knowing of those abilities, so is she able to force that somehow?

 

[Kaltias]

Homura is actually power null resistant but I forgot to update the page.

Usually a witch needs a barrier to hide, but the barrier is sustained by the witch's power.

In Homura's case both sustain each other.

If Jace has counters to time stop, probably teleportation is her best bet to get close. Also can Jace see invisible enemies?

 

[Wokistan]

I'll get back to you on the question about invis, but doesn't that basically make Homura indestructible of she's basically got a feedback loop of immortality? How exactly did she lose in canon?

 

[Kaltias]

A bit yeah. Granted idk how fast Homura can repair the barrier if it comes to that.

She wasn't killed in canon, they separated her magical girl and witch self, destroyed the thing that allowed the transformation into Homulilly, so she returned magical girl Homura.

The 5-B dura is for her barrier and likely her forcefields

 

[Wokistan]

Is there a specific power or ability that matches up to? I ask because I can go through blue to look for whatever it is, and see if it is plausible for Jace to be capable, but it would be nice to know what to look for. If her barrier can be damaged and doesn't have planet level dura, is he able to 1 shot the barrier and just kill her, or is there some other issue with that? Also, what stops him from just leaving the labyrinth? It would be in character, seeing as he's a strategic fighter. He even does something like this before, planeswalking away from Amonkhet to escape Bolas's mind magic, which if Bolas was serious wouldn't have worked but Homura isn't exactly able to match up to Bolas. Does her barrier just go with her?

 

[Kaltias]

I would assume something like "you can't remove this card if this one is present" or something.

The barrier has planet dura.

Wouldn't leaving the labyrinth count as self-BFR? The barrier doesn't follow her but she definitely won't follow him outside of it.

 

[Wokistan]

I mean, in character he does escape when things go south, but I'm not sure if that counts as self BFR or not. If its agreed upon that it does, just assume he won't do that I guess. Is her not leaving her barrier a character thing, or is that just part of the nature of witches?

 

[Kaltias]

It's both

 

[Wokistan]

I can make an addendum to the OP saying neither fighter can leave, if its more than just character motive for homura to not leave her labyrinth.

 

[Kaltias]

I think that there is something about every witch below Walpurgisnacht (aka below 6-C) needing the labyrinth yeah. They can't just decide to leave

 

[Wokistan]

Ok, Ill add it to the OP, but why did Kremhild Gretchen use a barrier then? Even Madoka is 5B.

 

[Kaltias]

I dunno. She definitely doesn't need one as it was specifically stated that needing one is a power based thing.

It's likely because it was the best way to create her new "heaven"

 

[Wokistan]

About the invis thing, Jace can pierce illusory magic and sense minds around him, as well as probably being able to power null it away when she activates it in the first place. Can't find anything specific about that weird immortality, and his best mindhax feats are defensive from what I've been seeing though if you take the JTMS card at face value, he's got low 1C mindhax, but he should be able to BFR through exile.

 

[Wokistan]

Bump

 

[Wokistan]

Bump

 

[Wokistan]

bump

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

Is there a specific power or ability that matches up to? I ask because I can go through blue to look for whatever it is, and see if it is plausible for Jace to be capable, but it would be nice to know what to look for. If her barrier can be damaged and doesn't have planet level dura, is he able to 1 shot the barrier and just kill her, or is there some other issue with that? Also, what stops him from just leaving the labyrinth? It would be in character, seeing as he's a strategic fighter. He even does something like this before, planeswalking away from Amonkhet to escape Bolas's mind magic, which if Bolas was serious wouldn't have worked but Homura isn't exactly able to match up to Bolas. Does her barrier just go with her?

I don't believe it was even a matter of Bolas being serious, the entire scenario was planned beforehand by Ugin. In literally any other case, Jace would have been dead.

I strongly believe that Jace shouldn't have access to time magic. Just because it's in his colors, doesn't mean he has access to it. That would be like saying Huatli can suddenly erase people from existence and soul hax.

Regardless, I see no way for Jace to counter time hax, and his Self BFR likely needs him to be able to properly react or have a hold of the situation, something I don't think will really come out and help him this round. Vote's for Homura.

 

[Wokistan]

He self BFR'ed mid mindhax, and people have plainswalked away on instinct before, but I said no leaving labyrinth because if he did that he's unlikely to go back in and that would be a rather anticlimactic outcome. Bolas probably wasn't serious, considering how he went out of his way to use abilities in the domain characters have the best command over (Mindhax on Jace, ordinary vanilla manipulation for Liliana and also paralleling her deals with demons, turning Nissa and Chandra's magic against them, and using physical attacks to pierce the supposedly invincible to physical attacks Gideon) when if he so desired he could have just instakilled them all. Normally I'd agree with the sentiment about time magic, but its such a big part of blue that it would honestly be really bizarre for a character so proficient in the color to not have it in at least some form. Counterspells work on timehax cards just fine, Jace is depicted/quoted in several so its not even a real stretch to say he can counter, and with the raw power advantage unless Homura for whatever reason just has really strong timehax I don't see his counterspells being overpowered by it. That being said, finding good quantifiable offensive mindhax feats for him has been kinda slow going, since most of the impressive stuff is due to the victim also being proficient in the field, so it's presumptuous to say he can just mindhax Homura and be done with it. I'll count your vote for now however.

 

[Wokistan]

Also, I believe Kozilek was described somewhere in a way alluding to passive timehax, which would be logical for the Eldrazi anyways, but if I find the exact quote I'll post it here.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

The thing is, I don't see Jace reacting to Homra's timehax after she deploys it.

 

[Wokistan]

There may be a resistance feat I can pull out of an encounter with Kozilek yet, but does she have to like move or something to cast time stop as a witch? Because counterspells can be preemptive.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

Kozilek is mainly reality warping, and I don't remember Jace resisting anything from it.

True, but the nature of time manipulation makes it so that even a prepared counter spell wouldn't be able to hit her, unless they can work in stopped/reversed/etc time.

 

[Wokistan]

No, as in some counterspells being described in a way that lets the opponent never get the spell off in the first place, like mana leak in particular. Didn't Kozilek's presence force some guy to experience billions of years during the span of a few seconds in one part or something?

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

You must be talking about Tazri, and in all honesty that was more along the lines of heavy mind manipulation or an illusion, since it never really happened. It was all really vague, and Kozilek's whole gig is messing with reality, which honestly time manipulation can fall under.

I've never seen Jace counter a spell before it was cast. Honestly, I don't think we should take the cards too literally, and only really focus on what he canonically does in the story and what he is shown doing in the art.

 

[Wokistan]

I'm pretty sure he's depicted in several counterspells.