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Well, to be fair Issei does tank a piercing attack before. Like the time when he stops True Longinus with only using his Triana mode, a mode which is inferior to Crimson Cardinal and he did so fairly easily.
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Tsunayoshi Sawada vs Issei Hyoudou
- Thread starter Muhammedmco
- Start date
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I think that's a fair point. But Tsuna also has superior AP here, so the attacks aren't truly that level of comparable to one another.
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As far as I know, Tsuna main way of attacking is by manipulating his flame which in this case will be reduced by Issei's fire resistance.
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No problem. Divide... It's a little confusing to me as well. Normally, after making contact with the target once, the user is able to automatically halve their power every ten seconds and gain it for themselves without the need to make contact again. The only limitation is that the power only gets halved and gained after ten seconds. But in Balance Breaker, '[Divide!]' just keeps sounding over and over again without the ten second limit. Like the Balance Breaker of Boosted Gear, where '[Boost!]' can be used to double Issei's power continuously, Divide also seems to work like that. What I'm unsure of is if the user has to make prior contact before continuously halving and gaining his target's power or simply do so from a distance. Personally, I believe he has to make contact first, but that question is for anyone who believes the wyverns can still directly apply 'Divide' to a target. If you're talking about an attack, they just stay in front of it and halve or reflect it. But is there a showing of him doing so and gaining a boost in strength? If not, it could just be like Natsu being unable to gain boosts from his own attacks. I'm not sure it'd boost him anyway, it's just his flames coming back to him, and not something from an outside source. Though if he has done so before, then yeah, it'd work momentarily.Litentric Teon said:
Okay. Yeah, just for reference, he can control his ranged attacks like one would do for his arms and legs. Like redirecting, curving and changing the trajectory. It's useful for when his opponent has anticipated his attack to come from a certain point and put several things in place to counter them, only for it to curve and hit them from another angle. He can also aim his cannons at different directions at once, and his attacks can warp, distort and maybe break space, which is regarded as durability negation. I'm not sure about the breaking apart, but I remember it was causing space to make 'Break! Break!' sounds. Yeah, also he can concentrate his attacks into a single point as well. That's how he bypassed Regulus Nemea's resistance to projectiles.
Anyway, for Issei being able to control the direction of his ranged attacks, I don't know if Tsuna's precognition is constantly active so it can see through them or something.
Yeah, like GDS said, Issei took an attack from the True Longinus. I know about Tsuna's AP advantage, but it's particularly impressive because the True Longinus is the strongest holy weapon in the series. Weaker holy weapons and even their fragments are able to erase the power and existence of Devils and return them to nothingness. Since Devils are particularly susceptible to holy weapons, I think it's impressive that Issei could take a piercing attack from the strongest, though it did not hit him directly. It only slowed down the Regenerationn of his armor.
That brings me to the defense part of Welsh Dragonic Rook. Like Tsuna has higher AP, Cao Cao's AP was much higher than Issei's durability, which was only 7-B at that point, on top of the True Longinus being the strongest holy weapon which Devils are weak to as mentioned before, but Issei could tank an attack from him with Triaina Rook due to its high defence. Cao Cao can easily pierce through people like Azazel, but his holy spear couldn't really do so, and it got temporarily stuck in Issei's armor. That's why I've been thinking if I should add "higher with Triaina Rook" to his durability section. On top of that, Issei didn't focus all of his Boosts to his defense and lower his center of gravity to further enhance his defense, which are all things he has done to improve that area before. Also, his wyverns can change to red and also utilize '[Boost!]', and transfer their strength to him to strengthen him further.
Additionally, along with the aforementioned endurance showings, he's considered to have better endurance than Kiba who could fight with his arm hacked off and large holes in his thighs causing him to bleed out, and Gasper who can endure being literally stomped on by a dragon, crushed, squashed and barely able to breathe. Though, as I remember myself, Issei could still fight after also having two holes in his thighs, but the difference is that he received the damage from a light based attack, so it was causing his insides to be damaged just like poison, and also crushed limbs. Also, both Issei and Vali can take attacks from the likes of Aŝi Dahāka and Rizevim (possibly 6-C, but casual attacks should be High 7-A) without their armor which was nullified in the case of the latter, and keep on fighting.
It's not that they could tank it, because they were obviously wrecked and damaged, but they could endure the damage and continue fighting, which is really cool taking in the fact that they did so without their respective armors.
All these leads me to believe that Issei could indeed take a condensed X Burner and survive, but definitely not without damage.
All in all, I'd say inconclusive. I dunno how this would go.
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@Burning
Once again, thank you for all of the information.
I too, am having some difficulty in deciding a victor. I'm am not very familiar with Issei. Based upon what you've said above, it seems as though he's had some particularly good durability feats. It reminds me a bit of Zoro. Tsuna, honestly, doesn't have too many of those, with some of his better ones being surviving a beating from Bermuda, someone who was capable of outsmarting and defeating the smartest Hitman in the world. He was able to survive having all of his bones broken from a single attack from Daemon Spade, a member of the original Vongolar family. And then using his gravity manipulation he was able to not only keep on fighting, but absolutely dominate him. He also took a beating from Enma twice, and managed to escape the gravity of multiple of his 'black holes' before engaging in a long fight with Daemon Spade. Tsuna also was nearly killed by Byakuran multiple times, taking an absolutely massive beating before gaining the power of the originial Vongolar ring, and killing the guy. They are both anime characters, and it's a pretty common trope in anime to have the protagonist get beaten pretty severely, before winning a battle. Issei's feats may be a tad bit more impressive, but not by much, especially considering the intelligence of those Tsuna had to fight later on in the series.
This brings us to his Hyper Intuition. His Hyper Intuition seems to be off at the most inconveient of times, often just for sake of the plot. However, when it does work, it typically allows him to quickly deduce attack patterns, more easily figure out how an opponent's attack works, and give him a sort of sense when something that typically isn't dangerous, would turn out to be dangerous. He's hyper observant essentially, with one or two added perks.
I agree that Issei would be able to tank a condensed X Burner, but seeing as how Tsuna's a hitman, as much as he claims not to be. If he's in character and going for the kill, he's going to go for a lethal shot. This is what he did against Jager. Once he was ensnared in Hibari and Mukuro's trap, he hit him with a condensed X-Burner to the neck, and one shot him. What's more, EoS Tsuna can spam X-Burner a bit, meaning that he should have the capacity to do the same with the condensed X-Burner.
As for Tsuna absorbing his own flames, the reason he should be able to do this is because he was able to do such to Xanxus and Byakuran, who also use sky flames similar to Tsuna. He was able to freeze their flames and absorb them as well. It's unlike Natsu where he has special magical, dragon slaying fire that only belongs to him. Various people in his verse use sky flames, and his techniques work against them just fine.
In terms of intelligence, Tsuna is surprising decent for an anime protagonist, mostly owing to his mafia background. He was trained by the best Hitman on the planet, and given a harsh lesson inf the final arc by his father, another Hitman who is likely in the top ten on the planet. After being one shot by his day, one or two days later he was able to fight toe to toe with him. Not just because he had gotten better, but because he had fought with his dying will, taught to him by Reborn, who popped his shoulders just to score a hit on Tsuna's father, just to given an example. He became a bit more ruthless in his fighting, attempting to fire an X-Burner in his father's face from point blank range, using the Hyper X Stream to warp the flesh of his foes, and one shotting Jager with a condensed X-Burner, to permanently scarring Bermuda's face with an UDWM punch.
Issei's fire resistance may help him against Tsuna's punches, but that won't necessarily help him against Tsuna's kicks, elbows, or knees, which he often employs in his aerial combat style. He can also generate forcefields of flame to block him form ranged projectiles midflight, as the wyverns should be similar to Byakuran's black dragons, except they have their divide quality.
Overall, I think Tsuna has a slight advantage, but not enough to give him any kind of firm win. In particular since Divide is such a powerful factor here.
I'll go with inconclusive as well.
Once again, thank you for all of the information.
I too, am having some difficulty in deciding a victor. I'm am not very familiar with Issei. Based upon what you've said above, it seems as though he's had some particularly good durability feats. It reminds me a bit of Zoro. Tsuna, honestly, doesn't have too many of those, with some of his better ones being surviving a beating from Bermuda, someone who was capable of outsmarting and defeating the smartest Hitman in the world. He was able to survive having all of his bones broken from a single attack from Daemon Spade, a member of the original Vongolar family. And then using his gravity manipulation he was able to not only keep on fighting, but absolutely dominate him. He also took a beating from Enma twice, and managed to escape the gravity of multiple of his 'black holes' before engaging in a long fight with Daemon Spade. Tsuna also was nearly killed by Byakuran multiple times, taking an absolutely massive beating before gaining the power of the originial Vongolar ring, and killing the guy. They are both anime characters, and it's a pretty common trope in anime to have the protagonist get beaten pretty severely, before winning a battle. Issei's feats may be a tad bit more impressive, but not by much, especially considering the intelligence of those Tsuna had to fight later on in the series.
This brings us to his Hyper Intuition. His Hyper Intuition seems to be off at the most inconveient of times, often just for sake of the plot. However, when it does work, it typically allows him to quickly deduce attack patterns, more easily figure out how an opponent's attack works, and give him a sort of sense when something that typically isn't dangerous, would turn out to be dangerous. He's hyper observant essentially, with one or two added perks.
I agree that Issei would be able to tank a condensed X Burner, but seeing as how Tsuna's a hitman, as much as he claims not to be. If he's in character and going for the kill, he's going to go for a lethal shot. This is what he did against Jager. Once he was ensnared in Hibari and Mukuro's trap, he hit him with a condensed X-Burner to the neck, and one shot him. What's more, EoS Tsuna can spam X-Burner a bit, meaning that he should have the capacity to do the same with the condensed X-Burner.
As for Tsuna absorbing his own flames, the reason he should be able to do this is because he was able to do such to Xanxus and Byakuran, who also use sky flames similar to Tsuna. He was able to freeze their flames and absorb them as well. It's unlike Natsu where he has special magical, dragon slaying fire that only belongs to him. Various people in his verse use sky flames, and his techniques work against them just fine.
In terms of intelligence, Tsuna is surprising decent for an anime protagonist, mostly owing to his mafia background. He was trained by the best Hitman on the planet, and given a harsh lesson inf the final arc by his father, another Hitman who is likely in the top ten on the planet. After being one shot by his day, one or two days later he was able to fight toe to toe with him. Not just because he had gotten better, but because he had fought with his dying will, taught to him by Reborn, who popped his shoulders just to score a hit on Tsuna's father, just to given an example. He became a bit more ruthless in his fighting, attempting to fire an X-Burner in his father's face from point blank range, using the Hyper X Stream to warp the flesh of his foes, and one shotting Jager with a condensed X-Burner, to permanently scarring Bermuda's face with an UDWM punch.
Issei's fire resistance may help him against Tsuna's punches, but that won't necessarily help him against Tsuna's kicks, elbows, or knees, which he often employs in his aerial combat style. He can also generate forcefields of flame to block him form ranged projectiles midflight, as the wyverns should be similar to Byakuran's black dragons, except they have their divide quality.
Overall, I think Tsuna has a slight advantage, but not enough to give him any kind of firm win. In particular since Divide is such a powerful factor here.
I'll go with inconclusive as well.
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@Licentric
Yeah, seems good. But there's just one minor thing. Penetrate can bypass forcefields, and it can be applied to both melee and ranged attacks.
Other than that, everything you said seems fair. I mean, I could also mention some things, but even with the things in my head, the result doesn't actually change to me since this is really close, so I can't decide.
Yeah, seems good. But there's just one minor thing. Penetrate can bypass forcefields, and it can be applied to both melee and ranged attacks.
Other than that, everything you said seems fair. I mean, I could also mention some things, but even with the things in my head, the result doesn't actually change to me since this is really close, so I can't decide.
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theninconclusive for me too
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@Burning
Glad we agree. My knowledge on Issei isn't very good, so I was glad I waited for you to comment since I kept forgetting to ask you.
Glad we agree. My knowledge on Issei isn't very good, so I was glad I waited for you to comment since I kept forgetting to ask you.
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Yeah.
Alternatively, you can ask GoodDaySir or Vergil Lucifer for any possible future references. They are also very knowledgeable, and the latter reminds me of things I forget sometimes, and has even read ahead (Volume 24 which isn't translated yet).
Alternatively, you can ask GoodDaySir or Vergil Lucifer for any possible future references. They are also very knowledgeable, and the latter reminds me of things I forget sometimes, and has even read ahead (Volume 24 which isn't translated yet).
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Ah, gotcha. I'll keep that in mind for next time. Thank you.
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I am also changing my vote to Inconclusive based on our discussion above
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Can someone count the total vote?
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Tsuna: 0
Issei: 0
Inconclusive: 5
Issei: 0
Inconclusive: 5
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Hmm... I can't pick a winner from the discussion. So siding on inconclusive too.
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