Tsukihime/Melty Tiers

[Violatas]

I've been curious as to who people consider the "high and low tiers" of Melty outside of Archetype Earth for a good while now. Obviously AE is THE strongest, but how do people rank those that come after? Don't think a thread like this has been done either soooooooo

Note: Lets ignore Ryougi Shiki for this discussion since (A. I'm explicitly just referring to characters that are more known for being Tsukihime/Melty characters, and I'm very positive most still consider Ryougi as a Garden of Sinners characters even now and (B. don't want this thread to primarily be just arguing over Void and Archetype Earth, which is what would absolutely happen. So yeah. Before anyone asks, yes, Aoko however can be included here for this discussion. Also, yes, ladders from the character's respective story modes can be used. They're canon and literally all the Melty profiles on this site use them for scaling.

Anyways, obviously characters like Nero Chaos, Red Arcueid, full power Akiha and Nanaya will be regarded as some of the most powerful, but what are y'alls rankings for the cast?
Hopefully this stays civil

Edit: to be clear, I'm asking who y'all rank above who. Not specifically stats. Would honestly prefer this not getting derailed over stat debates since discussing the rankings of the characters would vastly be more interesting imo.
I'm also just referring to the playable Melty characters (at their respective peaks), but including lore important characters like Crimson Moon, Zelretch, Kiri, etc is fine. Completely optional though.

2nd edit: Ryougi can be included without Void here

 

[CrystalValley]

to clarify, what are you asking exactly? who ranks above who or the ratings of their stats like power and speed? or both?

 

[Violatas]

The former. Obviously AE would be the high tier, followed by Nanaya, full power Akiha, Red Arcueid and Nero Chaos. I'm technically more curious how people rank those that come after them.

 

[Violatas]

Oh I also want to avoid discussing stats as much as possible since that'd definitely lead to this getting derailed.

I also just thought discussing this would be waaaaaay more fun this way. I looked around and surprisingly there's no thread like this for Tsukihime/Melty. Kinda surprised. It'd definitely be easier to handle compared to Fate, which has loooads more characters

 

[HyperZero95]

If you are referring to a lore ranking: (All characters are at their peak version/best point in time)

God Tier- Archetype Earth

Cosmic Tier- Aoko using the Fifth Magic, Type Moon, Zelretch,

Top Tier- Soujuurou Shizuki, Nanaya Shiki, Tohno Shiki

High Tier- Roa, Powered Ciel, Red Arcueid, Akiha, Nrvnqsr Chaos, Lugh Beowulf, Kishima Kouma, Len, Wallachia

Mid Tier- Arcueid, SHIKI, Ciel, Riesbyfe, Sion, Aoko, White Len, Dust of Osiris,

Low Tier- Yumizuka, Kiri Nanaya

 

[Violatas]

I was moreso thinking of the playable characters (and their respective peaks yeah) but eh I don't particularly mind if people wanna include lore important characters like Crimson Moon or Zelretch or Kiri in their rankings

 

[Violatas]

Just got back from work. Edited the OP message to clarify what I was asking

 

[CrystalValley]

this is a summarized tier fitting to the OP here. this doesn't 100% fully represent an actual detailed list with all things accounted for, so keep that in mind. hell there would be even more tiers and characters.

BS-tier: Archetype. don't really need to explain this for anyone who has actually read and knows about Tsukihime as a whole.

cosmic god-tier: Full-Scale Fifth Magic Aoko

^ so about this. it should be noted in character Aoko would not start out with this. but in Mahoutsukai no Yoru, Aoko when initially reaching the Fifth magic pretty much soloed the universe. when she reached it Gaia tried to suppress her, undo her actions, kill her, and so on. and then the Red Shadow from Alaya tried to stop her. and then it said she struggled with the laws of the UNIVERSE (aka cosmos that contains all of the celestial bodies in that timeline). the result? Gaia failed. the Red Shadow was powerless. and she dismantled the laws of the universe, announcing that "Order has now fallen." this would make her shit on even CCC god-tiers. combine that with the fact her Fifth Magic is directly sourced from the Root and it's just insane. once she did all of that though, Alice said she started restricting the scale of her Fifth Magic. likely due to issues of dooming the universe more than ever as Touko put it. so after that, she just made more limited used of it against Touko and as little as possible while just trying to overpower her with magecraft. and Aoko with her limited usage of the Fifth or without it changes her tier massively.

as for Types, I think it depends. later lore suggest their reality warping capabilities are on par with the Moon Cell and beyond depending on the Type. with this is mind and the fact that Type-Pluto could stalemate 5 True Magic users, I will put Type-Moon and Zelretch at top-tier due to this. i guess we could go with the "cosmic-tier" as Hyper put it. however it should be noted their physical striking power shouldn't be multiversal at all. they get here with hax alone. (this is of course accounting for CCC and their original showings in Angel Notes. not Fate/GO worlds with ORT's abysmal feats that are embarrassing and contradict old lore.)

cosmic high-tier: Type-Moon, Zelretch, ORT

^ also, the reason Zelretch isn't at Aoko's tier is because his Second Magic doesn't seem as varied in terms of what it can pull off. he struggled to beat Type-Moon, who should have full control over one celestial body (the moon). Aoko soloed the universe. not all True Magic is equal. though Type-Pluto facing off against 5 should be impressive regardless in terms of vaguely speaking to how haxed Types probably are.

other cosmic levels for Extra and shit. going to ignore that here.

top-tier: Shiki as a whole when counting all of his peak feats and then realizing that a post-Tsukihime 2 version of him has been seen.

^ can effortlessly statue pretty much everyone below him at his peak.

high-tier: Kishima, Prime Roa, Full Power Akiha, Red Arcueid, Nrvnqsr, AA Powered Ciel, Small-Scale Fifth Aoko, Len, Wallachia

^ Prime Roa and Kishima should be above the rest. Kishima at his peak when not a Tatari should be able to keep up with Tsukihime Nanaya SOMEWHAT while still being significantly inferior. Ciel is considered low-tier for the Burial Agency, and Roa even as a human founded the Burial Agency and was held in high regard by its co-founder. stack on the power he got as a DAA and his hax and he's totally insane. we don't even know where he caps at truly. Powered Ciel could defeat a weaker Tatari Red Arcueid that is still relative to Red Arcueid somewhat and was disappointed with how easy she was to defeat. Akiha is stated to possibly exceed Red Arcueid (which would be referring to the real one). and her Origami is insanely hard to deal with if you don't have the speed to blitz her. Arcueid stated it would be difficult for her to defeat Nrvnqsr at full power. he is stated to be an elite even among the Dead Apostle Ancestors and is treated as a threat (but still inferior to) AA Powered Ciel. can keep up with a serious MB Tohno with the intent to kill, who can blitz Vampire Sion with his eyes closed. as for Aoko, with the abilities she displayed in her fight with Touko with her restricted usages of the Fifth magic, it's clear she is still pretty damn haxed even with the limited ways she uses the Fifth there and should let her hang with people in this tier, even if they are physically superior in power and speed. Len also has some insane shit like being able to fight Nrvnqsr and being superior to her White Len self, who is pretty haxed. Wallachia can be a bit all over the place sometimes, but he's generally strong, extremely hard to kill, and can summon Tatari on the level of this tier.

mid-tier: Arcueid, SHIKI, Base Ciel, Riesbyfe, post-original-MB Sion, Aoko without the Fifth, White Len, Dust of Osiris

Ciel and Wallachia as Arcueid seemed to do equally well in beating MB Base Sion with relative ease for the most part. Riesbyfe should be superior to Base Sion in the original game as well. SHIKI is superior to Ciel, as proven multiple times throughout Tsukihime. Sion after the first MB got stronger to the point of being able to beat Base Ciel. Aoko defeated SHIKI Roa, presumably without the Fifth and she was superior to Base Sion after the original MB, as Sion herself seemed to have admitted. White Len could defeat Arcueid without Arcueid using her Gaia backup, but only barely. as she was too scared to even check if she was dead and ran off after her victory. so it's a small gap. Dust of Osiris has only taken Ls, so I hesitate too even put her in this tier. but she'd be the weakest one here.

low-tier: Yumizuka and Kiri.

they have no good showings at all and their speed is non-existent in comparison to the rest of the franchise. Wallachia as Yumizuka does not count. and the Kishima Kiri fought was vastly pre-prime.

 

[MaxLevel_King]

this is a summarized tier fitting to the OP here. this doesn't 100% fully represent an actual detailed list with all things accounted for, so keep that in mind. hell there would be even more tiers and characters.

BS-tier: Archetype. don't really need to explain this for anyone who has actually read and knows about Tsukihime as a whole.

cosmic god-tier: Full-Scale Fifth Magic Aoko

^ so about this. it should be noted in character Aoko would not start out with this. but in Mahoutsukai no Yoru, Aoko when initially reaching the Fifth magic pretty much soloed the universe. when she reached it Gaia tried to suppress her, undo her actions, kill her, and so on. and then the Red Shadow from Alaya tried to stop her. and then it said she struggled with the laws of the UNIVERSE (aka cosmos that contains all of the celestial bodies in that timeline). the result? Gaia failed. the Red Shadow was powerless. and she dismantled the laws of the universe, announcing that "Order has now fallen." this would make her shit on even CCC god-tiers. combine that with the fact her Fifth Magic is directly sourced from the Root and it's just insane. once she did all of that though, Alice said she started restricting the scale of her Fifth Magic. likely due to issues of dooming the universe more than ever as Touko put it. so after that, she just made more limited used of it against Touko and as little as possible while just trying to overpower her with magecraft. and Aoko with her limited usage of the Fifth or without it changes her tier massively.

as for Types, I think it depends. later lore suggest their reality warping capabilities are on par with the Moon Cell and beyond depending on the Type. with this is mind and the fact that Type-Pluto could stalemate 5 True Magic users, I will put Type-Moon and Zelretch at top-tier due to this. i guess we could go with the "cosmic-tier" as Hyper put it. however it should be noted their physical striking power shouldn't be multiversal at all. they get here with hax alone. (this is of course accounting for CCC and their original showings in Angel Notes. not Fate/GO worlds with ORT's abysmal feats that are embarrassing and contradict old lore.)

cosmic high-tier: Type-Moon, Zelretch, ORT

^ also, the reason Zelretch isn't at Aoko's tier is because his Second Magic doesn't seem as varied in terms of what it can pull off. he struggled to beat Type-Moon, who should have full control over one celestial body (the moon). Aoko soloed the universe. not all True Magic is equal. though Type-Pluto facing off against 5 should be impressive regardless in terms of vaguely speaking to how haxed Types probably are.

other cosmic levels for Extra and shit. going to ignore that here.

top-tier: Shiki as a whole when counting all of his peak feats and then realizing that a post-Tsukihime 2 version of him has been seen.

^ can effortlessly statue pretty much everyone below him at his peak.

high-tier: Kishima, Prime Roa, Full Power Akiha, Red Arcueid, Nrvnqsr, AA Powered Ciel, Small-Scale Fifth Aoko, Len, Wallachia

^ Prime Roa and Kishima should be above the rest. Kishima at his peak when not a Tatari should be able to keep up with Tsukihime Nanaya SOMEWHAT while still being significantly inferior. Ciel is considered low-tier for the Burial Agency, and Roa even as a human founded the Burial Agency and was held in high regard by its co-founder. stack on the power he got as a DAA and his hax and he's totally insane. we don't even know where he caps at truly. Powered Ciel could defeat a weaker Tatari Red Arcueid that is still relative to Red Arcueid somewhat and was disappointed with how easy she was to defeat. Akiha is stated to possibly exceed Red Arcueid (which would be referring to the real one). and her Origami is insanely hard to deal with if you don't have the speed to blitz her. Arcueid stated it would be difficult for her to defeat Nrvnqsr at full power. he is stated to be an elite even among the Dead Apostle Ancestors and is treated as a threat (but still inferior to) AA Powered Ciel. can keep up with a serious MB Tohno with the intent to kill, who can blitz Vampire Sion with his eyes closed. as for Aoko, with the abilities she displayed in her fight with Touko with her restricted usages of the Fifth magic, it's clear she is still pretty damn haxed even with the limited ways she uses the Fifth there and should let her hang with people in this tier, even if they are physically superior in power and speed. Len also has some insane shit like being able to fight Nrvnqsr and being superior to her White Len self, who is pretty haxed. Wallachia can be a bit all over the place sometimes, but he's generally strong, extremely hard to kill, and can summon Tatari on the level of this tier.

mid-tier: Arcueid, SHIKI, Base Ciel, Riesbyfe, post-original-MB Sion, Aoko without the Fifth, White Len, Dust of Osiris

Ciel and Wallachia as Arcueid seemed to do equally well in beating MB Base Sion with relative ease for the most part. Riesbyfe should be superior to Base Sion in the original game as well. SHIKI is superior to Ciel, as proven multiple times throughout Tsukihime. Sion after the first MB got stronger to the point of being able to beat Base Ciel. Aoko defeated SHIKI Roa, presumably without the Fifth and she was superior to Base Sion after the original MB, as Sion herself seemed to have admitted. White Len could defeat Arcueid without Arcueid using her Gaia backup, but only barely. as she was too scared to even check if she was dead and ran off after her victory. so it's a small gap. Dust of Osiris has only taken Ls, so I hesitate too even put her in this tier. but she'd be the weakest one here.

low-tier: Yumizuka and Kiri.

they have no good showings at all and their speed is non-existent in comparison to the rest of the franchise. Wallachia as Yumizuka does not count. and the Kishima Kiri fought was vastly pre-prime.

I've never understood this. Isn't (the genuine) Red Arcueid supposed to be bloodlusted full power Arcueid and stated to be equal in power to the Crimson Moon? How do all of the other high tiers scale to her? She's literally the Earth's equivalent of an Ultimate One. Logically, she should be vastly superior in strength to almost all of the high tiers.

 

[Violatas]

I've never understood this. Isn't (the genuine) Red Arcueid supposed to be bloodlusted full power Arcueid and stated to be equal in power to the Crimson Moon? How do all of the other high tiers scale to her? She's literally the Earth's equivalent of an Ultimate One. Logically, she should be vastly superior in strength to almost all of the high tiers.

Like I said in the OP message I'd prefer if this didn't get derailed by stat discussions which this would definitely lead to. Anyways, the confusion comes from this site having Crimson Moon and other TYPES scaling to Archetype Earth, when obviously, this causes a weird scaling issue if the comparison was made in regards to just base full power Arcueid. All I'll say on the matter. Gonna head to work and don't want this heavily gearing towards TYPES stat discussions. Actually if you don't mind, you could ask this on Crystal's message wall to continue the convo? Assuming he doesn't mind. Or idk, make a thread for TYPE scaling. Either or

 

[CrystalValley]

Like I said in the OP message I'd prefer if this didn't get derailed by stat discussions which this would definitely lead to. Anyways, the confusion comes from this site having Crimson Moon and other TYPES scaling to Archetype Earth, when obviously, this causes a weird scaling issue if the comparison was made in regards to just base full power Arcueid. All I'll say on the matter. Gonna head to work and don't want this heavily gearing towards TYPES stat discussions. Actually if you don't mind, you could ask this on Crystal's message wall to continue the convo? Assuming he doesn't mind. Or idk, make a thread for TYPE scaling. Either or

to be fair, he isn't really discussing "stats" as in they hit this hard, etc. he's really just arguing about the placement of tiers. and Type-Moon specifically is too central to the overall Tsukihime series to ignore him when discussing this stuff. it's not like he's mentioning an Angel Notes Type. i think this discussion fits here just fine honestly and seems to follow the point of this thread. discussing the placement of who is above who will always somewhat involve what they are capable of. besides his question is reasonable.

I've never understood this. Isn't (the genuine) Red Arcueid supposed to be bloodlusted full power Arcueid and stated to be equal in power to the Crimson Moon? How do all of the other high tiers scale to her? She's literally the Earth's equivalent of an Ultimate One. Logically, she should be vastly superior in strength to almost all of the high tiers.

Red Arcueid in physical stats is equal to Type-Moon. you are right. Type-Moon is as high as he is due to the later lore implying his reality warping would be crazy. but in terms of physical stats, he should only be equal to Red Arcueid. and we have guidebook statements saying things like Akiha likely exceeding a rampaging Arcueid, which is to say an Arcueid not containing her bloodlust, aka red Arcueid, which is backed up by the scaling we have seen. Prime Roa is stated to be the strongest Dead Apostle Ancestor, stomped Altrouge, who also rivals Type-Moon in power and likely took down Primate Murder who tends to be with her. there's also several characters who scale around Red Arcueid due to how superior they are to 30% Arcueid. Powered Ciel in AA with sixth months of magical energy stored up easily defeated a Tatari Red Arcueid. and despite that Tatari not being as strong as the real Red Arcueid, she has proven herself to be superior to 30% Arcueid. and Powered Ciel thought she was a complete disappointment. Tohno in MB also could blitz Vampire Sion while he was fully serious, who should be somewhat relative to 30% Arcueid considering her base form could keep up with her a little bit, despite being clearly inferior. That would make the speed gap between MB Tohno and 30% Arcueid massive to the point he should be relative to or flat out above Red Arcueid in speed. and Nrvnqsr could keep up with that Tohno and was around even with him. Arcueid also stated it would be difficult even at her full power to defeat Nrvnqsr. generally everyone in the series for the most part scales around 30% Arcueid more or less, which already puts them in the range of Red Arcueid to varying extents. and then there's one with feats and statements that put them directly above Red Arcueid.

generally how I view Type-Moon is that his physical stats are equal to Red Arcueid, but he should have way better abilities due to later lore implications and the fact that someone as haxed as Zelretch only barely defeated him. on top of the fact he has unknown mystic eyes on the level of MEoDP. he also hard counters people like Shiki due to having no concept of death at all times unless it is instilled into him or if he's hit with grain based attacks. if I were to rate Type-Moon based off his physical stats, he'd just be in the same tier as Red Arcueid and the rest. but i'm counting his overall capabilities here beyond just his physical might.

 

[MaxLevel_King]

to be fair, he isn't really discussing "stats" as in they hit this hard, etc. he's really just arguing about the placement of tiers. and Type-Moon specifically is too central to the overall Tsukihime series to ignore him when discussing this stuff. it's not like he's mentioning an Angel Notes Type. i think this discussion fits here just fine honestly and seems to follow the point of this thread. discussing the placement of who is above who will always somewhat involve what they are capable of. besides his question is reasonable.


Red Arcueid in physical stats is equal to Type-Moon. you are right. Type-Moon is as high as he is due to the later lore implying his reality warping would be crazy. but in terms of physical stats, he should only be equal to Red Arcueid. and we have guidebook statements saying things like Akiha likely exceeding a rampaging Arcueid, which is to say an Arcueid not containing her bloodlust, aka red Arcueid, which is backed up by the scaling we have seen. Prime Roa is stated to be the strongest Dead Apostle Ancestor, stomped Altrouge, who also rivals Type-Moon in power and likely took down Primate Murder who tends to be with her. there's also several characters who scale around Red Arcueid due to how superior they are to 30% Arcueid. Powered Ciel in AA with sixth months of magical energy stored up easily defeated a Tatari Red Arcueid. and despite that Tatari not being as strong as the real Red Arcueid, she has proven herself to be superior to 30% Arcueid. and Powered Ciel thought she was a complete disappointment. Tohno in MB also could blitz Vampire Sion while he was fully serious, who should be somewhat relative to 30% Arcueid considering her base form could keep up with her a little bit, despite being clearly inferior. That would make the speed gap between MB Tohno and 30% Arcueid massive to the point he should be relative to or flat out above Red Arcueid in speed. and Nrvnqsr could keep up with that Tohno and was around even with him. Arcueid also stated it would be difficult even at her full power to defeat Nrvnqsr. generally everyone in the series for the most part scales around 30% Arcueid more or less, which already puts them in the range of Red Arcueid to varying extents. and then there's one with feats and statements that put them directly above Red Arcueid.

generally how I view Type-Moon is that his physical stats are equal to Red Arcueid, but he should have way better abilities due to later lore implications and the fact that someone as haxed as Zelretch only barely defeated him. on top of the fact he has unknown mystic eyes on the level of MEoDP. he also hard counters people like Shiki due to having no concept of death at all times unless it is instilled into him or if he's hit with grain based attacks. if I were to rate Type-Moon based off his physical stats, he'd just be in the same tier as Red Arcueid and the rest. but i'm counting his overall capabilities here beyond just his physical might.

That makes sense now.

 

[Violatas]

Have some free time rn.

this is a summarized tier fitting to the OP here. this doesn't 100% fully represent an actual detailed list with all things accounted for, so keep that in mind. hell there would be even more tiers and characters.

BS-tier: Archetype. don't really need to explain this for anyone who has actually read and knows about Tsukihime as a whole.

cosmic god-tier: Full-Scale Fifth Magic Aoko

^ so about this. it should be noted in character Aoko would not start out with this. but in Mahoutsukai no Yoru, Aoko when initially reaching the Fifth magic pretty much soloed the universe. when she reached it Gaia tried to suppress her, undo her actions, kill her, and so on. and then the Red Shadow from Alaya tried to stop her. and then it said she struggled with the laws of the UNIVERSE (aka cosmos that contains all of the celestial bodies in that timeline). the result? Gaia failed. the Red Shadow was powerless. and she dismantled the laws of the universe, announcing that "Order has now fallen." this would make her shit on even CCC god-tiers. combine that with the fact her Fifth Magic is directly sourced from the Root and it's just insane. once she did all of that though, Alice said she started restricting the scale of her Fifth Magic. likely due to issues of dooming the universe more than ever as Touko put it. so after that, she just made more limited used of it against Touko and as little as possible while just trying to overpower her with magecraft. and Aoko with her limited usage of the Fifth or without it changes her tier massively.

as for Types, I think it depends. later lore suggest their reality warping capabilities are on par with the Moon Cell and beyond depending on the Type. with this is mind and the fact that Type-Pluto could stalemate 5 True Magic users, I will put Type-Moon and Zelretch at top-tier due to this. i guess we could go with the "cosmic-tier" as Hyper put it. however it should be noted their physical striking power shouldn't be multiversal at all. they get here with hax alone. (this is of course accounting for CCC and their original showings in Angel Notes. not Fate/GO worlds with ORT's abysmal feats that are embarrassing and contradict old lore.)

cosmic high-tier: Type-Moon, Zelretch, ORT

^ also, the reason Zelretch isn't at Aoko's tier is because his Second Magic doesn't seem as varied in terms of what it can pull off. he struggled to beat Type-Moon, who should have full control over one celestial body (the moon). Aoko soloed the universe. not all True Magic is equal. though Type-Pluto facing off against 5 should be impressive regardless in terms of vaguely speaking to how haxed Types probably are.

other cosmic levels for Extra and shit. going to ignore that here.

top-tier: Shiki as a whole when counting all of his peak feats and then realizing that a post-Tsukihime 2 version of him has been seen.

^ can effortlessly statue pretty much everyone below him at his peak.

high-tier: Kishima, Prime Roa, Full Power Akiha, Red Arcueid, Nrvnqsr, AA Powered Ciel, Small-Scale Fifth Aoko, Len, Wallachia

^ Prime Roa and Kishima should be above the rest. Kishima at his peak when not a Tatari should be able to keep up with Tsukihime Nanaya SOMEWHAT while still being significantly inferior. Ciel is considered low-tier for the Burial Agency, and Roa even as a human founded the Burial Agency and was held in high regard by its co-founder. stack on the power he got as a DAA and his hax and he's totally insane. we don't even know where he caps at truly. Powered Ciel could defeat a weaker Tatari Red Arcueid that is still relative to Red Arcueid somewhat and was disappointed with how easy she was to defeat. Akiha is stated to possibly exceed Red Arcueid (which would be referring to the real one). and her Origami is insanely hard to deal with if you don't have the speed to blitz her. Arcueid stated it would be difficult for her to defeat Nrvnqsr at full power. he is stated to be an elite even among the Dead Apostle Ancestors and is treated as a threat (but still inferior to) AA Powered Ciel. can keep up with a serious MB Tohno with the intent to kill, who can blitz Vampire Sion with his eyes closed. as for Aoko, with the abilities she displayed in her fight with Touko with her restricted usages of the Fifth magic, it's clear she is still pretty damn haxed even with the limited ways she uses the Fifth there and should let her hang with people in this tier, even if they are physically superior in power and speed. Len also has some insane shit like being able to fight Nrvnqsr and being superior to her White Len self, who is pretty haxed. Wallachia can be a bit all over the place sometimes, but he's generally strong, extremely hard to kill, and can summon Tatari on the level of this tier.

mid-tier: Arcueid, SHIKI, Base Ciel, Riesbyfe, post-original-MB Sion, Aoko without the Fifth, White Len, Dust of Osiris

Ciel and Wallachia as Arcueid seemed to do equally well in beating MB Base Sion with relative ease for the most part. Riesbyfe should be superior to Base Sion in the original game as well. SHIKI is superior to Ciel, as proven multiple times throughout Tsukihime. Sion after the first MB got stronger to the point of being able to beat Base Ciel. Aoko defeated SHIKI Roa, presumably without the Fifth and she was superior to Base Sion after the original MB, as Sion herself seemed to have admitted. White Len could defeat Arcueid without Arcueid using her Gaia backup, but only barely. as she was too scared to even check if she was dead and ran off after her victory. so it's a small gap. Dust of Osiris has only taken Ls, so I hesitate too even put her in this tier. but she'd be the weakest one here.

low-tier: Yumizuka and Kiri.

they have no good showings at all and their speed is non-existent in comparison to the rest of the franchise. Wallachia as Yumizuka does not count. and the Kishima Kiri fought was vastly pre-prime.

Just occured to me that Red Arcueid could beat Nanaya for nearly the same reason as Crimson Moon, albeit only if the fight under a full moon, when she's lacking a concept of death. Granted he'd still be far faster though his main ability would be moot.

That said very circumstantial obviously.

Also definitely like how this has been going so far. Pretty fun too like I wanted. Said this already but I typically don't see many discussions about how Tsukihime/Melty characters compare to each other. Generally, its just the TYPES I see brought up.

 

[HyperZero95]

Have some free time rn.

Just occured to me that Red Arcueid could beat Nanaya for nearly the same reason as Crimson Moon, albeit only if the fight under a full moon, when she's lacking a concept of death. Granted he'd still be far faster though his main ability would be moot.

That said very circumstantial obviously.

Also definitely like how this has been going so far. Pretty fun too like I wanted. Said this already but I typically don't see many discussions about how Tsukihime/Melty characters compare to each other. Generally, its just the TYPES I see brought up.

Should be noted that Arcueid lost her no concept of death at night after being killed the first time in Tsukihime. Warcueid noted it in MB and concluded that it was due to her being already killed once before. In fact, Tohno could actually see lines on Arcueid during the night in the Ciel route. They were just harder to see until he killed the nature around Arcueid, but they were actually there still.

If it's Red Arcueid before Tsukihime however than yes, she would fare better against Nanaya.

 

[MaxLevel_King]

this is a summarized tier fitting to the OP here. this doesn't 100% fully represent an actual detailed list with all things accounted for, so keep that in mind. hell there would be even more tiers and characters.

BS-tier: Archetype. don't really need to explain this for anyone who has actually read and knows about Tsukihime as a whole.

cosmic god-tier: Full-Scale Fifth Magic Aoko

^ so about this. it should be noted in character Aoko would not start out with this. but in Mahoutsukai no Yoru, Aoko when initially reaching the Fifth magic pretty much soloed the universe. when she reached it Gaia tried to suppress her, undo her actions, kill her, and so on. and then the Red Shadow from Alaya tried to stop her. and then it said she struggled with the laws of the UNIVERSE (aka cosmos that contains all of the celestial bodies in that timeline). the result? Gaia failed. the Red Shadow was powerless. and she dismantled the laws of the universe, announcing that "Order has now fallen." this would make her shit on even CCC god-tiers. combine that with the fact her Fifth Magic is directly sourced from the Root and it's just insane. once she did all of that though, Alice said she started restricting the scale of her Fifth Magic. likely due to issues of dooming the universe more than ever as Touko put it. so after that, she just made more limited used of it against Touko and as little as possible while just trying to overpower her with magecraft. and Aoko with her limited usage of the Fifth or without it changes her tier massively.

as for Types, I think it depends. later lore suggest their reality warping capabilities are on par with the Moon Cell and beyond depending on the Type. with this is mind and the fact that Type-Pluto could stalemate 5 True Magic users, I will put Type-Moon and Zelretch at top-tier due to this. i guess we could go with the "cosmic-tier" as Hyper put it. however it should be noted their physical striking power shouldn't be multiversal at all. they get here with hax alone. (this is of course accounting for CCC and their original showings in Angel Notes. not Fate/GO worlds with ORT's abysmal feats that are embarrassing and contradict old lore.)

cosmic high-tier: Type-Moon, Zelretch, ORT

^ also, the reason Zelretch isn't at Aoko's tier is because his Second Magic doesn't seem as varied in terms of what it can pull off. he struggled to beat Type-Moon, who should have full control over one celestial body (the moon). Aoko soloed the universe. not all True Magic is equal. though Type-Pluto facing off against 5 should be impressive regardless in terms of vaguely speaking to how haxed Types probably are.

other cosmic levels for Extra and shit. going to ignore that here.

top-tier: Shiki as a whole when counting all of his peak feats and then realizing that a post-Tsukihime 2 version of him has been seen.

^ can effortlessly statue pretty much everyone below him at his peak.

high-tier: Kishima, Prime Roa, Full Power Akiha, Red Arcueid, Nrvnqsr, AA Powered Ciel, Small-Scale Fifth Aoko, Len, Wallachia

^ Prime Roa and Kishima should be above the rest. Kishima at his peak when not a Tatari should be able to keep up with Tsukihime Nanaya SOMEWHAT while still being significantly inferior. Ciel is considered low-tier for the Burial Agency, and Roa even as a human founded the Burial Agency and was held in high regard by its co-founder. stack on the power he got as a DAA and his hax and he's totally insane. we don't even know where he caps at truly. Powered Ciel could defeat a weaker Tatari Red Arcueid that is still relative to Red Arcueid somewhat and was disappointed with how easy she was to defeat. Akiha is stated to possibly exceed Red Arcueid (which would be referring to the real one). and her Origami is insanely hard to deal with if you don't have the speed to blitz her. Arcueid stated it would be difficult for her to defeat Nrvnqsr at full power. he is stated to be an elite even among the Dead Apostle Ancestors and is treated as a threat (but still inferior to) AA Powered Ciel. can keep up with a serious MB Tohno with the intent to kill, who can blitz Vampire Sion with his eyes closed. as for Aoko, with the abilities she displayed in her fight with Touko with her restricted usages of the Fifth magic, it's clear she is still pretty damn haxed even with the limited ways she uses the Fifth there and should let her hang with people in this tier, even if they are physically superior in power and speed. Len also has some insane shit like being able to fight Nrvnqsr and being superior to her White Len self, who is pretty haxed. Wallachia can be a bit all over the place sometimes, but he's generally strong, extremely hard to kill, and can summon Tatari on the level of this tier.

mid-tier: Arcueid, SHIKI, Base Ciel, Riesbyfe, post-original-MB Sion, Aoko without the Fifth, White Len, Dust of Osiris

Ciel and Wallachia as Arcueid seemed to do equally well in beating MB Base Sion with relative ease for the most part. Riesbyfe should be superior to Base Sion in the original game as well. SHIKI is superior to Ciel, as proven multiple times throughout Tsukihime. Sion after the first MB got stronger to the point of being able to beat Base Ciel. Aoko defeated SHIKI Roa, presumably without the Fifth and she was superior to Base Sion after the original MB, as Sion herself seemed to have admitted. White Len could defeat Arcueid without Arcueid using her Gaia backup, but only barely. as she was too scared to even check if she was dead and ran off after her victory. so it's a small gap. Dust of Osiris has only taken Ls, so I hesitate too even put her in this tier. but she'd be the weakest one here.

low-tier: Yumizuka and Kiri.

they have no good showings at all and their speed is non-existent in comparison to the rest of the franchise. Wallachia as Yumizuka does not count. and the Kishima Kiri fought was vastly pre-prime.

Another question, wouldn't Full-Scale Fifth Magic Aoko actually scale above Archtype Earth? Archtype Earth's authorities come from Gaia and Gaia was powerless in front of Aoko. Furthermore, apparently Aoko was a threat to the universe itself (which contains all celestial bodies including Earth). Given this, shouldn't the tiering be;

Aoko (Superior to Gaia - Possibly Universal) > Archtype Earth (Powered by Gaia)?

 

[Violatas]

Should be noted that Arcueid lost her no concept of death at night after being killed the first time in Tsukihime. Warcueid noted it in MB and concluded that it was due to her being already killed once before. In fact, Tohno could actually see lines on Arcueid during the night in the Ciel route. They were just harder to see until he killed the nature around Arcueid, but they were actually there still.

If it's Red Arcueid before Tsukihime however than yes, she would fare better against Nanaya.

I should've clarified I was referring to before Nanaya killed her. Half thought the "at their peak" part might've made that clear. But yeah you're right

 

[Violatas]

Another question, wouldn't Full-Scale Fifth Magic Aoko actually scale above Archtype Earth? Archtype Earth's authorities come from Gaia and Gaia was powerless in front of Aoko. Furthermore, apparently Aoko was a threat to the universe itself (which contains all celestial bodies including Earth). Given this, shouldn't the tiering be;

Aoko (Superior to Gaia - Possibly Universal) > Archtype Earth (Powered by Gaia)?

It depends. The top 3 statement from Nasu has Archetype Earth above even Ryougi. And well I'm sure you know that's a controversial topic.

Edit: also it's funny this was brought up because I was actually discussing this with some friends yesterday lol

 

[CrystalValley]

Should be noted that Arcueid lost her no concept of death at night after being killed the first time in Tsukihime. Warcueid noted it in MB and concluded that it was due to her being already killed once before. In fact, Tohno could actually see lines on Arcueid during the night in the Ciel route. They were just harder to see until he killed the nature around Arcueid, but they were actually there still.

If it's Red Arcueid before Tsukihime however than yes, she would fare better against Nanaya.

Have some free time rn.

Just occured to me that Red Arcueid could beat Nanaya for nearly the same reason as Crimson Moon, albeit only if the fight under a full moon, when she's lacking a concept of death. Granted he'd still be far faster though his main ability would be moot.

That said very circumstantial obviously.

Also definitely like how this has been going so far. Pretty fun too like I wanted. Said this already but I typically don't see many discussions about how Tsukihime/Melty characters compare to each other. Generally, its just the TYPES I see brought up.

i do think Nanaya should beat Red Arcueid even back in her prime when she had no concept of death at night. Nanaya would just blitz her until daytime to where he can kill her. and we know Arcueid's backup does not work on Nanaya due to how he acquires his insane capabilities, as seen in the actual Tatari Nanaya Vs. Arcueid fight. his body merely follows his transcendent mind, so his stats don't actually come from his body itself, meaning she can't copy them. but I guess she would "fare better" in the sense she would shrug off getting ragdolled and blitzed until the sun rises, as opposed to just dying instantly regardless of the time. though she still gets screwed immediately if it's already day. but yeah, he should beat Arcueid no matter the circumstance, aside from Archetype.

@MaxLevel_King
Another question, wouldn't Full-Scale Fifth Magic Aoko actually scale above Archtype Earth? Archtype Earth's authorities come from Gaia and Gaia was powerless in front of Aoko. Furthermore, apparently Aoko was a threat to the universe itself (which contains all celestial bodies including Earth). Given this, shouldn't the tiering be;

Aoko (Superior to Gaia - Possibly Universal) > Archtype Earth (Powered by Gaia)?

just to go over this briefly, Archetype is actually connected to the Root. we know this because she has used the Second Magic in the MB manga. she is stated to come from nothingness. Ryougi said she is the same type of person as her, with that being their only thing in common. Nasu said Arcueid was above Void, which would mean she needs to have even more of a connection to the Root than Void. this is backed up in Actress Again where Ryougi explicitly says twice that Void sent her to draw out Archetype to kill her for somewhat of vague TLDR reasons. and Archetype also knew who Void was, what her goals were, and was still confident in dealing with her/Ryougi, which backs up the top 3 statement. i could give more details, but if you have more questions about this in particular, PM me or send it on my wall, since Violatas doesn't really want to talk about this too much here. but there is a bunch of different pieces of evidence that explicitly tell us that Archetype has Root power, is connected to it, and is above Void.

 

[MaxLevel_King]

i do think Nanaya should beat Red Arcueid even back in her prime when she had no concept of death at night. Nanaya would just blitz her until daytime to where he can kill her. and we know Arcueid's backup does not work on Nanaya due to how he acquires his insane capabilities, as seen in the actual Tatari Nanaya Vs. Arcueid fight. his body merely follows his transcendent mind, so his stats don't actually come from his body itself, meaning she can't copy them. but I guess she would "fare better" in the sense she would shrug off getting ragdolled and blitzed until the sun rises, as opposed to just dying instantly regardless of the time. though she still gets screwed immediately if it's already day. but yeah, he should beat Arcueid no matter the circumstance, aside from Archetype.


just to go over this briefly, Archetype is actually connected to the Root. we know this because she has used the Second Magic in the MB manga. she is stated to come from nothingness. Ryougi said she is the same type of person as her, with that being their only thing in common. Nasu said Arcueid was above Void, which would mean she needs to have even more of a connection to the Root than Void. this is backed up in Actress Again where Ryougi explicitly says twice that Void sent her to draw out Archetype to kill her for somewhat of vague TLDR reasons. and Archetype also knew who Void was, what her goals were, and was still confident in dealing with her/Ryougi, which backs up the top 3 statement. i could give more details, but if you have more questions about this in particular, PM me or send it on my wall, since Violatas doesn't really want to talk about this too much here. but there is a bunch of different pieces of evidence that explicitly tell us that Archetype has Root power, is connected to it, and is above Void.

I knew that AE was broken, but she's way more broken than I initially thought.

 

[Violatas]

Bump

Also after talking about this a bit off site, I decided that normal Ryougi could be included at least (with self suggestion, yes). If only because her VS Nanaya is a debate in of itself.
Likely will be the last addition to this thread.

Anyways, thoughts? She kinda has an inherent advantage with her sword having longer reach and assuming both are dead even if you have them on par. Kinda depends on how you view the Ryougi vs Nero Chaos fight? It was a TATARI, although I've been curious as to the argument of that specific TATARI being as powerful as the real Nero since how powerful they are greatly varies.

 

[HyperZero95]

Bump

Also after talking about this a bit off site, I decided that normal Ryougi could be included at least (with self suggestion, yes). If only because her VS Nanaya is a debate in of itself.
Likely will be the last addition to this thread.

Anyways, thoughts? She kinda has an inherent advantage with her sword having longer reach and assuming both are dead even if you have them on par. Kinda depends on how you view the Ryougi vs Nero Chaos fight? It was a TATARI, although I've been curious as to the argument of that specific TATARI being as powerful as the real Nero since how powerful they are greatly varies.

Ryougi in KnK has no showings that are up to par with Nanaya. Her normal self was unable to perceive Souren Araya's movements, who is compared to Nrvnqsr and Kishima, both of whom are massively below Nanaya. Even with self hypnosis, her speedblitzing Araya while wounded and slowed down is impressive, but Tohno at his best could already do the same to a Fully Inverted Akiha while holding back (Since he had no intention to truly kill her. And we have seen that being willing to kill can result in considerable spikes in power), with Nanaya being well above Tohno.

In Melty Blood, however, it's a different story. Ryougi could effortlessly dispose of Nrvnqsr without really considering him a combative threat, but rather an annoyance. Granted, we don't know if he he used the 999th Beast (and it could be actually argued he didn't for a number of reasons), but the sheer ease with which she disposed of his main body should be telling that she is probably above him overall. This is essentially confirmed by her later beating Tohno, who could already match Nrvnqsr one year prior and is at that point capable of defeating Red Arcueid without fully committing to a killing mindset. Regarding Nrvnqsr's strength, Tataris don't actually seem to be weaker compared to their originals. The only time they are mentioned as being weaker is when they are summoned outside the full moon, or when it's Wallachia possessing them and being personally unable to draw out their full power. The Nrvnqsr that Ryougi fought was his own self, and was summoned by Dust of Osiris, who not only surpasses Wallachia in terms of acting as Tatari, but also replicated the exact conditions of Wallachia's night in the first MB where Arcueid summoned the Red Moon from the future Osiris needed to reach her goal, which included the full moon and Wallachia being at his best. Only the ones summoned by White Len are weaker, since she only has a fragment of Wallachia's powers and she needs to combine it with her dream powers, which we know are tied to her own power, suggesting that her Tataris cannot exceed her own power by a drastic margin, which is also backed up by her being unable to replicate things like MEODP, whereas Wallachia flat out had them as Nanaya.

Taking into account that Ryougi only has her knife in MB, we can tell she would be easily relative to Nanaya: Tohno at his peak in AA should be able to blitz Red Arcueid given he beat her rather casually without being able to fully unleash himself. We have seen in the first MB that Tohno can lose to Warcueid despite being capable of outright blitzing fighters relative to her like Vampire Sion, likely because he cannot bring himself to kill her for good even if she is a fake. Much like with Yumizuka in the manga. So MB Ryougi defeating Tohno at his peak would place her considerably above Red Arcueid. You then factor in how her self hypnosis amps her speed to the point she can blitz characters that can blitz her normal self even while massively injured, and there is no way she is anything below at least on par with Nanaya.


With that being said, and moving on that particular match up, I'd say Ryougi is the more likely to win out of the two. She has longer reach thanks to her weapon, as you already noted. She is also probably more skilled, given how Ryougi is stated and shown to be capable of executing Nanaya techniques with nearly identical performance to those of Nanaya while using her knife already. Those of Nanaya are noticeably better, however it's mainly due to Nanaya being capable of moving like an animal, allowing him to integrate more unpredictable and strange maneuvers in them, which is more a matter of agility rather than actual skill. Unless we want to say that Lio was more skilled than Ryougi or True Assassin was more skilled than Archer simply because they can move that way (They weren't obviously). The fact that her performance in 17 dissections is specifically said to be essentially the same and that her rendition of Seven Nights was virtually identical save for the weird flip Nanaya does at the end only seems to give further credence to that notion.

The sword is her most preferred weapon and the only one she can show her true talent with, and its hypnosis remakes both her mind and body purely for combat, to the point of removing any unnecessary human's functions and replacing them with functions necessary to be a living weapon. So she is clearly considerably more skilled with it. And given that Nanaya does not seem to be that much above knife Ryougi in skill, this is another advantage for her.
Regarding Nanaya's unpredictable movements, Ryougi with her sword is capable of looking into the future with such accuracy that her final attack against Araya was described as being "no different than dropping a single needle from the 10th floor and hoping to hit one person down there". Even her basic sixth sense was already stated to border on precog. In MB her senses seems to be even more honed, given how she can casually "know" that Nrvnqsr was in front of her despite him hiding his presence and her being capable of sensing that every person in her town had vanished, all with her normal sixth sense. Ryougi has also fought both Lio (who employs very similar movements of the Nanayas in combat) and Nrvnqsr (Who consists of an army of actual beasts and animals from every direction and is capable of unleashing them from his main body in CQC in rather bizarre and unexpected ways) with only a knife. This is on top of Nanaya using a fighting style she already knows and can replicate with her knife. So Nanaya isn't exactly something she has never faced before. She never has dealt with animalistic movements and Nanaya Techniques at the same time, true, but it's also true she would be wielding a sword rather than just a knife this time. Add to that the fact that she can predict some of his movements in advance and move to counter before they even start thanks to her future sight, and I see her being able to stand up to his fighting style rather well.

It's also likely that this fight would end up being a repeat of SHIKI vs Shiki. Since both Ryougi and Nanaya are MEODP users and skilled fighters, they would realise that they their opponent is targeting their lines and points. This would make it easier for Ryougi, since she would still know where Nanaya is going to strike even if he tried to be unpredictable. This goes both ways obviously, but Nanaya lacks Ryougi's future sight and has shorter reach. He may try to mix it up by using physical attacks to throw her off balance, but considering that Ryougi has replicated/exceeded his strength and durability showings in KnK already, he likely won't find success in that, and, if anything, he would just leave himself open to a MEODP strike.

Finally, we have already seen how Ryougi's speed in this incarnation is on Nanaya's level. However, Ryougi can also use the Nanaya Techniques to further increase it. We have seen that she went from being blitzed by Araya to being able to easily react to him when using them. So I strongly doubt Nanaya's ability to last for long should she opt for them.

Between having comparable physical stats, longer reach, high level of precog, likely greater skill and the ability to massively amp her speed with the Nanaya Arts, Ryougi should prevail in a hard-fought battle. Nanaya's only advantage is his agility and unpredictability, but Ryougi has the tools and the experience to counter them. I can see Nanaya overwhelming her if they fight in an enclosed space with plenty of possibilities for him to exploit his fighting style's advantages, but in a neutral setting, I'm not seeing it.

However it should be noted that overall, Nanaya is superior to Ryougi. Ryougi's peak should be in MF (9 years after MB), when she is 30. We have seen that Ryougi can improve considerably over the course of three years (The time between KnK and MB) - over the course of nine, I expect Shiki to improve a similar amount. If anything I expect her to improve more than the amount she did between KnK and MB. That would make her incredibly powerful as a fighter. But Nanaya seems to have far more potential still. We have seen how it took Ryougi from Melty Blood to beat him, this is in spite of Nanaya having only received minimal training for less time than Ryougi, on top of being younger as well. Tohno seems to have reached Nanaya's level in Tsukihime 2 for TLDR reasons. Starting from that notion, he would actually improve and go beyond his Tsukihime level over the course of the story. Given his far greater potential it's rather obvious that he would outclass Ryougi at their respective peaks. Though I have no idea by how much Eclipse Nanaya (Eclipse taking place after Tsukihime 2) has surpassed MF Ryougi, mainly due to the lack of details (Aka Nasu neglecting Tsuki 2 and opting for milking Fate). I'd just place him vaguely above her, since we have no idea what he did, how much he improved and the time periods.

And I realised that this post came out ridiculously long. I apologize for this massive wall of text. Seems like I got too lost in trying to give the most complete answer I could provide.

 

[Violatas]

Ryougi in KnK has no showings that are up to par with Nanaya. Her normal self was unable to perceive Souren Araya's movements, who is compared to Nrvnqsr and Kishima, both of whom are massively below Nanaya. Even with self hypnosis, her speedblitzing Araya while wounded and slowed down is impressive, but Tohno at his best could already do the same to a Fully Inverted Akiha while holding back (Since he had no intention to truly kill her. And we have seen that being willing to kill can result in considerable spikes in power), with Nanaya being well above Tohno.

In Melty Blood, however, it's a different story. Ryougi could effortlessly dispose of Nrvnqsr without really considering him a combative threat, but rather an annoyance. Granted, we don't know if he he used the 999th Beast (and it could be actually argued he didn't for a number of reasons), but the sheer ease with which she disposed of his main body should be telling that she is probably above him overall. This is essentially confirmed by her later beating Tohno, who could already match Nrvnqsr one year prior and is at that point capable of defeating Red Arcueid without fully committing to a killing mindset. Regarding Nrvnqsr's strength, Tataris don't actually seem to be weaker compared to their originals. The only time they are mentioned as being weaker is when they are summoned outside the full moon, or when it's Wallachia possessing them and being personally unable to draw out their full power. The Nrvnqsr that Ryougi fought was his own self, and was summoned by Dust of Osiris, who not only surpasses Wallachia in terms of acting as Tatari, but also replicated the exact conditions of Wallachia's night in the first MB where Arcueid summoned the Red Moon from the future Osiris needed to reach her goal, which included the full moon and Wallachia being at his best. Only the ones summoned by White Len are weaker, since she only has a fragment of Wallachia's powers and she needs to combine it with her dream powers, which we know are tied to her own power, suggesting that her Tataris cannot exceed her own power by a drastic margin, which is also backed up by her being unable to replicate things like MEODP, whereas Wallachia flat out had them as Nanaya.

Taking into account that Ryougi only has her knife in MB, we can tell she would be easily relative to Nanaya: Tohno at his peak in AA should be able to blitz Red Arcueid given he beat her rather casually without being able to fully unleash himself. We have seen in the first MB that Tohno can lose to Warcueid despite being capable of outright blitzing fighters relative to her like Vampire Sion, likely because he cannot bring himself to kill her for good even if she is a fake. Much like with Yumizuka in the manga. So MB Ryougi defeating Tohno at his peak would place her considerably above Red Arcueid. You then factor in how her self hypnosis amps her speed to the point she can blitz characters that can blitz her normal self even while massively injured, and there is no way she is anything below at least on par with Nanaya.


With that being said, and moving on that particular match up, I'd say Ryougi is the more likely to win out of the two. She has longer reach thanks to her weapon, as you already noted. She is also probably more skilled, given how Ryougi is stated and shown to be capable of executing Nanaya techniques with nearly identical performance to those of Nanaya while using her knife already. Those of Nanaya are noticeably better, however it's mainly due to Nanaya being capable of moving like an animal, allowing him to integrate more unpredictable and strange maneuvers in them, which is more a matter of agility rather than actual skill. Unless we want to say that Lio was more skilled than Ryougi or True Assassin was more skilled than Archer simply because they can move that way (They weren't obviously). The fact that her performance in 17 dissections is specifically said to be essentially the same and that her rendition of Seven Nights was virtually identical save for the weird flip Nanaya does at the end only seems to give further credence to that notion.

The sword is her most preferred weapon and the only one she can show her true talent with, and its hypnosis remakes both her mind and body purely for combat, to the point of removing any unnecessary human's functions and replacing them with functions necessary to be a living weapon. So she is clearly considerably more skilled with it. And given that Nanaya does not seem to be that much above knife Ryougi in skill, this is another advantage for her.
Regarding Nanaya's unpredictable movements, Ryougi with her sword is capable of looking into the future with such accuracy that her final attack against Araya was described as being "no different than dropping a single needle from the 10th floor and hoping to hit one person down there". Even her basic sixth sense was already stated to border on precog. In MB her senses seems to be even more honed, given how she can casually "know" that Nrvnqsr was in front of her despite him hiding his presence and her being capable of sensing that every person in her town had vanished, all with her normal sixth sense. Ryougi has also fought both Lio (who employs very similar movements of the Nanayas in combat) and Nrvnqsr (Who consists of an army of actual beasts and animals from every direction and is capable of unleashing them from his main body in CQC in rather bizarre and unexpected ways) with only a knife. This is on top of Nanaya using a fighting style she already knows and can replicate with her knife. So Nanaya isn't exactly something she has never faced before. She never has dealt with animalistic movements and Nanaya Techniques at the same time, true, but it's also true she would be wielding a sword rather than just a knife this time. Add to that the fact that she can predict some of his movements in advance and move to counter before they even start thanks to her future sight, and I see her being able to stand up to his fighting style rather well.

It's also likely that this fight would end up being a repeat of SHIKI vs Shiki. Since both Ryougi and Nanaya are MEODP users and skilled fighters, they would realise that they their opponent is targeting their lines and points. This would make it easier for Ryougi, since she would still know where Nanaya is going to strike even if he tried to be unpredictable. This goes both ways obviously, but Nanaya lacks Ryougi's future sight and has shorter reach. He may try to mix it up by using physical attacks to throw her off balance, but considering that Ryougi has replicated/exceeded his strength and durability showings in KnK already, he likely won't find success in that, and, if anything, he would just leave himself open to a MEODP strike.

Finally, we have already seen how Ryougi's speed in this incarnation is on Nanaya's level. However, Ryougi can also use the Nanaya Techniques to further increase it. We have seen that she went from being blitzed by Araya to being able to easily react to him when using them. So I strongly doubt Nanaya's ability to last for long should she opt for them.

Between having comparable physical stats, longer reach, high level of precog, likely greater skill and the ability to massively amp her speed with the Nanaya Arts, Ryougi should prevail in a hard-fought battle. Nanaya's only advantage is his agility and unpredictability, but Ryougi has the tools and the experience to counter them. I can see Nanaya overwhelming her if they fight in an enclosed space with plenty of possibilities for him to exploit his fighting style's advantages, but in a neutral setting, I'm not seeing it.

However it should be noted that overall, Nanaya is superior to Ryougi. Ryougi's peak should be in MF (9 years after MB), when she is 30. We have seen that Ryougi can improve considerably over the course of three years (The time between KnK and MB) - over the course of nine, I expect Shiki to improve a similar amount. If anything I expect her to improve more than the amount she did between KnK and MB. That would make her incredibly powerful as a fighter. But Nanaya seems to have far more potential still. We have seen how it took Ryougi from Melty Blood to beat him, this is in spite of Nanaya having only received minimal training for less time than Ryougi, on top of being younger as well. Shiki seems to have reached Nanaya's level in Tsukihime 2 for TLDR reasons. Starting from that notion, he would actually improve and go beyond his Tsukihime level over the course of the story. Given his far greater potential it's rather obvious that he would outclass Ryougi at their respective peaks. Though I have no idea by how much Eclipse Nanaya (Eclipse taking place after Tsukihime 2) has surpassed MF Ryougi, mainly due to the lack of details (Aka Nasu neglecting Tsuki 2 and opting for milking Fate). I'd just place him vaguely above her, since we have no idea what he did, how much he improved and the time periods.

And I realised that this post came out ridiculously long. I apologize for this massive wall of text. Seems like I got too lost in trying to give the most complete answer I could provide.

You're fine! Also I swear there was mentioning of TATARI power varying depending on how many people are thinking of the same "rumor."

As for Nero vs Ryougi, given she has the MEoD, I can't really see Nero not using his 999th Beast form against her. He already has first hand experience against Nanaya about how busted such an ability is. Solid case though

 

[HyperZero95]

You're fine! Also I swear there was mentioning of TATARI power varying depending on how many people are thinking of the same "rumor."

As for Nero vs Ryougi, given she has the MEoD, I can't really see Nero not using his 999th Beast form against her. He already has first hand experience against Nanaya about how busted such an ability is. Solid case though

Oh, the strength of the rumor affects the stability of the manifestation actually. In the game, Sion noted that Nrvnqsr was disappearing early because Shiki was the only person fearing him, which was not enough for a full materialization. However, he shouldn't have been weaker since Wallachia directly commented on how powerful his body was and how it surpassed his own. In the manga, they recreated that fight but replaced Nrvnqsr with Yumizuka basically. Sion noted the same thing about her fading away early because only Shiki feared her. Despite that, Sion earlier said how her combat abilities were incredible because she was summoned under the full moon. Combine that with Sion saying in the game that the Nrvnqsr she fought alongside Akiha and Shiki was weaker because it was "too soon" and because Wallachia miscalculated and could not wait until the full moon, and it seems that they aren't really weaker when summoned when Tatari is at its fullest. And he was in the route where Arcueid summoned the Red Moon, which is the night that Osiris replicated in AA.

As for Nero vs Ryougi, given she has the MEoD, I can't really see Nero not using his 999th Beast form against her.

Shiki having Death Perception is exactly why he shouldn't use it actually. When he used it, Nanaya was able to see his ultimate Point of Death, whereas before he noted that he would need to stab the point of each individual Beasts in order to eliminate him. So Nrvnqsr would open himself up to a one shot should he use the 999th Beast against a MEODP user. Given that he remembers his fight with Nanaya and he wouldn't want to face that humiliation once again, he would probably refrain from using it and opt to use all of his creatures in the largest possible quantity and attack Ryougi from all sides. That would be the most effective strategy to deal with a MEODP user since it would allow him to overwhelm them to the point they wouldn't be able to slice all the lines of his beasts unless they are massively faster and can cut hundreds of beasts from each direction. He also seems to have stayed in base when he fought Tohno in the first MB indeed. Anyway, given how casual Ryougi was and how lightly she took Nrvnqsr, on top of her being physically rather weak normally (She is extremely strong with her sword, but she didn't have access to it in MB), which would mean that she would need to be significantly above Nrvnqsr in order to avoid getting hit even once despite being surrounded by all sides by his monsters, and it can be honestly argued she is above it regardless.

In fact, AA Tohno, while not operating at his ideal mindset, defeated Red Arcueid, who is a challenge for Nrvnqsr. In a fully serious mindset, he should be capable of outright blitzing her going by his track record, yet Ryougi defeated him. Even though Tohno specifically removed his glasses and said that he won't act like he usually does due to that night being special, fully agreeing with Ryougi that their eyes should be exterminated. Add to that knife Ryougi's physical frailty and Tohno being capable of at least partially guessing where she would strike due to both of them being MEODP users, and we can say she would be rather well ahead of him as well.

 

[Violatas]

Shiki having Death Perception is exactly why he shouldn't use it actually. When he used it, Nanaya was able to see his ultimate Point of Death, whereas before he noted that he would need to stab the point of each individual Beasts in order to eliminate him. So Nrvnqsr would open himself up to a one shot should he use the 999th Beast against a MEODP user. Given that he remembers his fight with Nanaya and he wouldn't want to face that humiliation once again, he would probably refrain from using it and opt to use all of his creatures in the largest possible quantity and attack Ryougi from all sides. That would be the most effective strategy to deal with a MEODP user since it would allow him to overwhelm them to the point they wouldn't be able to slice all the lines of his beasts unless they are massively faster and can cut hundreds of beasts from each direction. He also seems to have stayed in base when he fought Tohno in the first MB indeed. Anyway, given how casual Ryougi was and how lightly she took Nrvnqsr, on top of her being physically rather weak normally (She is extremely strong with her sword, but she didn't have access to it in MB), which would mean that she would need to be significantly above Nrvnqsr in order to avoid getting hit even once despite being surrounded by all sides by his monsters, and it can be honestly argued she is above it regardless.

Hmm. That's a good counter point actually. His base would definitely be ideal against a MEoD user. Never really looked at it from that angle.

Seems this may be the most debatable match here lol

 

[HyperZero95]

Anyway just for the sake of completeness I'll include KnK characters in the rankings at this point.

God Tier- Archetype Earth, Void Shiki

Cosmic Tier- Aoko using the Fifth Magic, Type Moon, Zelretch,

Top Tier- Soujuurou Shizuki, Nanaya Shiki, Tohno Shiki, Ryougi Shiki

High Tier- Roa, Powered Ciel, Red Arcueid, Akiha, Araya Souren, Lugh Beowulf, Nrvnqsr Chaos, Kishima Kouma, Len, Wallachia, Touko Aozaki

Mid Tier- Arcueid, Asagami, God's Word, Aoko, SHIKI, Ciel, Riesbyfe, Sion, White Len, Dust of Osiris,

Low tier- Alice, Cornelius Alba, Azaka

Irrelevant Tier- Yumizuka, Kiri Nanaya, Lio

 

[Violatas]

Feel like including Void in that will definitely cause a ruckus which is why I preferred to just sticking to normal Ryougi here (and her vs Nanaya is pretty interesting to debate).
Uhh I myself am neutral on AE vs Void. Guess I'll just say that much
Anyways, hopefully now that the last few Nasu CRTs have calmed down, this'll get more attention. More thoughts would be neat

 

[CrystalValley]

Ryougi in KnK has no showings that are up to par with Nanaya. Her normal self was unable to perceive Souren Araya's movements, who is compared to Nrvnqsr and Kishima, both of whom are massively below Nanaya. Even with self hypnosis, her speedblitzing Araya while wounded and slowed down is impressive, but Tohno at his best could already do the same to a Fully Inverted Akiha while holding back (Since he had no intention to truly kill her. And we have seen that being willing to kill can result in considerable spikes in power), with Nanaya being well above Tohno.

In Melty Blood, however, it's a different story. Ryougi could effortlessly dispose of Nrvnqsr without really considering him a combative threat, but rather an annoyance. Granted, we don't know if he he used the 999th Beast (and it could be actually argued he didn't for a number of reasons), but the sheer ease with which she disposed of his main body should be telling that she is probably above him overall. This is essentially confirmed by her later beating Tohno, who could already match Nrvnqsr one year prior and is at that point capable of defeating Red Arcueid without fully committing to a killing mindset. Regarding Nrvnqsr's strength, Tataris don't actually seem to be weaker compared to their originals. The only time they are mentioned as being weaker is when they are summoned outside the full moon, or when it's Wallachia possessing them and being personally unable to draw out their full power. The Nrvnqsr that Ryougi fought was his own self, and was summoned by Dust of Osiris, who not only surpasses Wallachia in terms of acting as Tatari, but also replicated the exact conditions of Wallachia's night in the first MB where Arcueid summoned the Red Moon from the future Osiris needed to reach her goal, which included the full moon and Wallachia being at his best. Only the ones summoned by White Len are weaker, since she only has a fragment of Wallachia's powers and she needs to combine it with her dream powers, which we know are tied to her own power, suggesting that her Tataris cannot exceed her own power by a drastic margin, which is also backed up by her being unable to replicate things like MEODP, whereas Wallachia flat out had them as Nanaya.

Taking into account that Ryougi only has her knife in MB, we can tell she would be easily relative to Nanaya: Tohno at his peak in AA should be able to blitz Red Arcueid given he beat her rather casually without being able to fully unleash himself. We have seen in the first MB that Tohno can lose to Warcueid despite being capable of outright blitzing fighters relative to her like Vampire Sion, likely because he cannot bring himself to kill her for good even if she is a fake. Much like with Yumizuka in the manga. So MB Ryougi defeating Tohno at his peak would place her considerably above Red Arcueid. You then factor in how her self hypnosis amps her speed to the point she can blitz characters that can blitz her normal self even while massively injured, and there is no way she is anything below at least on par with Nanaya.


With that being said, and moving on that particular match up, I'd say Ryougi is the more likely to win out of the two. She has longer reach thanks to her weapon, as you already noted. She is also probably more skilled, given how Ryougi is stated and shown to be capable of executing Nanaya techniques with nearly identical performance to those of Nanaya while using her knife already. Those of Nanaya are noticeably better, however it's mainly due to Nanaya being capable of moving like an animal, allowing him to integrate more unpredictable and strange maneuvers in them, which is more a matter of agility rather than actual skill. Unless we want to say that Lio was more skilled than Ryougi or True Assassin was more skilled than Archer simply because they can move that way (They weren't obviously). The fact that her performance in 17 dissections is specifically said to be essentially the same and that her rendition of Seven Nights was virtually identical save for the weird flip Nanaya does at the end only seems to give further credence to that notion.

The sword is her most preferred weapon and the only one she can show her true talent with, and its hypnosis remakes both her mind and body purely for combat, to the point of removing any unnecessary human's functions and replacing them with functions necessary to be a living weapon. So she is clearly considerably more skilled with it. And given that Nanaya does not seem to be that much above knife Ryougi in skill, this is another advantage for her.
Regarding Nanaya's unpredictable movements, Ryougi with her sword is capable of looking into the future with such accuracy that her final attack against Araya was described as being "no different than dropping a single needle from the 10th floor and hoping to hit one person down there". Even her basic sixth sense was already stated to border on precog. In MB her senses seems to be even more honed, given how she can casually "know" that Nrvnqsr was in front of her despite him hiding his presence and her being capable of sensing that every person in her town had vanished, all with her normal sixth sense. Ryougi has also fought both Lio (who employs very similar movements of the Nanayas in combat) and Nrvnqsr (Who consists of an army of actual beasts and animals from every direction and is capable of unleashing them from his main body in CQC in rather bizarre and unexpected ways) with only a knife. This is on top of Nanaya using a fighting style she already knows and can replicate with her knife. So Nanaya isn't exactly something she has never faced before. She never has dealt with animalistic movements and Nanaya Techniques at the same time, true, but it's also true she would be wielding a sword rather than just a knife this time. Add to that the fact that she can predict some of his movements in advance and move to counter before they even start thanks to her future sight, and I see her being able to stand up to his fighting style rather well.

It's also likely that this fight would end up being a repeat of SHIKI vs Shiki. Since both Ryougi and Nanaya are MEODP users and skilled fighters, they would realise that they their opponent is targeting their lines and points. This would make it easier for Ryougi, since she would still know where Nanaya is going to strike even if he tried to be unpredictable. This goes both ways obviously, but Nanaya lacks Ryougi's future sight and has shorter reach. He may try to mix it up by using physical attacks to throw her off balance, but considering that Ryougi has replicated/exceeded his strength and durability showings in KnK already, he likely won't find success in that, and, if anything, he would just leave himself open to a MEODP strike.

Finally, we have already seen how Ryougi's speed in this incarnation is on Nanaya's level. However, Ryougi can also use the Nanaya Techniques to further increase it. We have seen that she went from being blitzed by Araya to being able to easily react to him when using them. So I strongly doubt Nanaya's ability to last for long should she opt for them.

Between having comparable physical stats, longer reach, high level of precog, likely greater skill and the ability to massively amp her speed with the Nanaya Arts, Ryougi should prevail in a hard-fought battle. Nanaya's only advantage is his agility and unpredictability, but Ryougi has the tools and the experience to counter them. I can see Nanaya overwhelming her if they fight in an enclosed space with plenty of possibilities for him to exploit his fighting style's advantages, but in a neutral setting, I'm not seeing it.

However it should be noted that overall, Nanaya is superior to Ryougi. Ryougi's peak should be in MF (9 years after MB), when she is 30. We have seen that Ryougi can improve considerably over the course of three years (The time between KnK and MB) - over the course of nine, I expect Shiki to improve a similar amount. If anything I expect her to improve more than the amount she did between KnK and MB. That would make her incredibly powerful as a fighter. But Nanaya seems to have far more potential still. We have seen how it took Ryougi from Melty Blood to beat him, this is in spite of Nanaya having only received minimal training for less time than Ryougi, on top of being younger as well. Tohno seems to have reached Nanaya's level in Tsukihime 2 for TLDR reasons. Starting from that notion, he would actually improve and go beyond his Tsukihime level over the course of the story. Given his far greater potential it's rather obvious that he would outclass Ryougi at their respective peaks. Though I have no idea by how much Eclipse Nanaya (Eclipse taking place after Tsukihime 2) has surpassed MF Ryougi, mainly due to the lack of details (Aka Nasu neglecting Tsuki 2 and opting for milking Fate). I'd just place him vaguely above her, since we have no idea what he did, how much he improved and the time periods.

And I realised that this post came out ridiculously long. I apologize for this massive wall of text. Seems like I got too lost in trying to give the most complete answer I could provide.

good posts and a reasonable conclusion. i do have some disagreements though.

i don't think there is sufficient evidence to say that Ryougi has mastered the Nanaya Arts just because she has pulled off some impressive things with them. it doesn't really make sense for one who primarily trains with a sword and in the fighting style of the Ryougis to have mastered the Nanaya Arts. if she did, she would be better with a knife than a sword, as the Nanayas are proficient with small weapons. and before you say it, we know the Ryougis are not superior to the Nanayas on average at all. the Nanayas are stated to be the primary war power of the four clans in Red Demon God and treated as being on an entirely different level from the rest of the clans. Ryougi is an outlier due to reasons we both know. but I'm just mentioning that their martial arts are not superior or on par with the Nanayas and that Ryougi has not mastered their arts due to the fact her at her best is using what the Ryougis trained her in primarily.

as for MB Ryougi with a sword versus Tsukihime Nanaya, I think it depends. let's look at the blitz scaling chains.

MB Ryougi is superior to AA Tohno, but not to the point of blitzing. i do think she has a speed advantage though still because her skill with a knife would be vastly inferior to AA Tohno the point she must of had a speed advantage to win. and we know Ryougi with a sword in MB would be able to blitz people who can blitz her MB knife self. so the BLITZ scaling chain would go like this.

MB Ryougi with a sword could blitz someone who could blitz knife Ryougi, who should be a bit faster than AA Tohno, who could blitz Red Arcueid if he was fully serious.

Tsukihime Nanaya's blitz scaling chain is also ****** though. first, we know he scales above Kohaku Route Tohno, who is just flat out built different compared to himself in other timelines at the same point in time. there are possible reasons as to why this is the case, but it doesn't matter.

with that being said, Kohaku Route Tohno blitzed someone equal to or ABOVE Red Arcueid while he lacked the intent to kill and wasn't fully committed to the fight. we know a bloodlusted Tohno can blitz a serious version of himself without the intent to kill and is by extension not fully committed to the fight. and Nanaya should be above Kohaku Route Tohno period. so the blitz scaling chain would go like this.

Nanaya is somewhat superior to bloodlusted Kohaku Route Tohno, who could blitz a serious non-bloodlusted version of himself, who could blitz someone equal or superior to Red Arcueid (Akiha).

so let's compare their chains directly.

MB Sword Ryougi (could blitz) > (some hypothetical character who could blitz knife Ryougi) > knife Ryougi

Nanaya (superior but likely not blitz level) > Bloodlusted Kohaku Route Tohno (could blitz) > Serious but non-lethal mindset Kohaku Route Tohno, who should generally be around AA Tohno level.

so Ryougi should be faster than Nanaya most likely, but it wouldn't be blitz-tier. he would be significantly superior to her in skill though on top of his unorthodox movements. furthermore, Nanaya does not need to just strike at her lines, as he is fully capable of damaging her physically. with that being said, I don't think this is enough to overcome Ryougi's superior speed and reach with her sword. retreating into the shadows (assuming they are in a place where Nanaya can even do this) along with doing some weird shit like destroying the floor to catch her off guard will not work due to her precog. if Nanaya were to stay at the same level throughout the fight, I think Ryougi would win mid-diff in an open area to high-diff in an enclosed area, since Nanaya excels at abusing such areas.

however.

notice that I said "if he stays at the same level." well in the Akiha Route, Tohno states he gets stronger and naturally more skilled in combat the more he fights. now would this apply to Nanaya? I wonder only because I'm not sure if Tohno gets stronger the more he fights simply because he's relearning his abilities taught to Nanaya at a young age, or if this is just a natural trait of his that would keep working even after he has relearned all of his capabilities as Nanaya.

i believe it is possible that it wouldn't apply to Nanaya if the first scenario is true where it's just a matter of Tohno passively relearning/remembering what was taught to Nanaya in the past as he fights. this wouldn't apply to Nanaya of course because Nanaya has all of his memories.

however, it's possible that him getting stronger and better the more he fights is a passive trait. this would explain why Nanaya's potential is so stupidly high that one to two years of training as a child was comparable to 20 years of training for Ryougi, who is already an extreme outlier for her clan.

if the latter scenario is the case and it's just a passive trait of Nanaya/Tohno to get better and stronger the more he fights, I do not think even MB Ryougi with a sword could take him in a prolonged fight. why? well let's examine how quickly Tohno has gotten stronger when fighting lethal battles.

he went from struggling with two of Nrvnqsr's lower beasts one night to killing multiple stronger ones before being overwhelmed by sheer numbers the next night.

he then went from killing a few good amount of Nrvnqsr's beasts before being overwhelmed, to outright overpowering SHIKI in a knife fight a few days later. that is a huge leap.

now could he get stronger in the middle of a fight? if the fight is prolonged, I see no reason as to why he wouldn't. a fight between Nanaya and MB sword Ryougi would be a long one. and time is the last thing on Ryougi's side here. Nanaya will take a defensive route if he needs to while he's calculating his opponent (as seen with one outcome against Akiha). neither combatant will act carelessly and leave themselves open due to clumsy recklessness. Nanaya is more skilled than Ryougi, which will help him keep up, despite the speed disadvantage, as it shouldn't be blitz-tier. Nanaya's death sense will also be able to counter Ryougi's precog enough to where he can keep up with her. his unorthodox movements and much higher flexibility would also aid him in evading her attacks. Nanaya engaging in a highly intense CQC battle against someone who can push him to his limits would eventually start making his level of skill and power soar until it's eventually too much for Ryougi to handle. the moment his speed becomes equal to hers is the moment she has already lost, as Ryougi will not be able to defeat Nanaya if his speed has caught up completely to hers. her weapon has more reach. that is all. she is less skilled, less flexible, and has a way more orthodox approach to combat. he would wear her down eventually or find an opening. what really seals the deal though is that in this scenario, he would not just eventually reach her speed, but surpass it, along with reaching higher levels of skill and power. with this interpretation of Nanaya and how Shiki's skill/power/speed increase works, I believe he would defeat Ryougi in a long battle hard-diff.

TLDR: MB Ryougi with a sword would win mid to high-diff if we go with the interpretation that Shiki's constant power, speed, and skill increase would not apply to Nanaya for the reasons mentioned above.

If said power speed and skill increase applied to Nanaya with the alternate interpretation, he should be able to overcome Ryougi in a hard fought battle.

i think the latter interpretation for Nanaya is more likely given how it fits with his insane potential and how he got so crazy with just one to two years of training as a child, but I admit that this may be subconscious bias on my part to a small degree. i think your arguments for Ryougi are also good.

now.

Eclipse Shiki (either Nanaya or Tohno, doesn't matter) should beat any version of Ryougi though, as that's a post Tsukihime 2 Shiki that went through a whole underground war with a lot of shit going on. the amount of conflicts he went through, on top of seeming to have been training he has been through should put him well beyond MF Ryougi. why?

we know Tohno as Satsujinki has improved beyond Nanaya at LEAST in assassinations. Nasu actually says Nanaya rates his own assassination skills as lacking, while Satsujinki can enter the lair of a family of Dead Apostles and assassinate them all without being detected. while this is not direct combat capabilities, this does imply Shiki as a whole is improving and going beyond his initial capabilities he obtained when trained as a child. he also seems much more cold and calculating like his original Nanaya personality. This was all before the main events of Tsukihime 2, which was going to be a huge underground war with some of the strongest around on all sides. we see an older Shiki after the events of Tsukihime 2 in Tsukihime Eclipse. so a Shiki that has gone through way more fights and a complete war? just imagine how much he improved. his Nanaya personality would scale to all of the stuff Tohno has learned as well, as we've seen that Nanaya has all of Tohno's memories as well. but yeah, he's way too crazy.

MF Ryougi on the other hand settled down with a family and had a child. she probably still trained a bit, but it either just stopped her from getting rusty or improved her slightly. her much lower potential on top of not going through nearly as much stuff as Tsukihime 2 era Shiki has combat and training wise means she shouldn't stand a chance against him. i can throw her a bone and say it's possible she could keep up with him and put up a fight before going down, but Idk. best case scenario for her. but in the end, Prime Soujuurou is the only assassin who could potentially match Shiki blow for blow at this point.

TLDR: Eclipse Shiki (either Tohno or Nanaya) >> MF Ryougi > High-Balled Tsukihime Nanaya > MB Ryougi with a sword > Low-Balled Tsukihime Nanaya.

 

[HyperZero95]

good posts and a reasonable conclusion. i do have some disagreements though.

i don't think there is sufficient evidence to say that Ryougi has mastered the Nanaya Arts just because she has pulled off some impressive things with them. it doesn't really make sense for one who primarily trains with a sword and in the fighting style of the Ryougis to have mastered the Nanaya Arts. if she did, she would be better with a knife than a sword, as the Nanayas are proficient with small weapons. and before you say it, we know the Ryougis are not superior to the Nanayas on average at all. the Nanayas are stated to be the primary war power of the four clans in Red Demon God and treated as being on an entirely different level from the rest of the clans. Ryougi is an outlier due to reasons we both know. but I'm just mentioning that their martial arts are not superior or on par with the Nanayas and that Ryougi has not mastered their arts due to the fact her at her best is using what the Ryougis trained her in primarily.

I never said that she outright mastered the Nanaya Arts. That wouldn't make sense, as you have correctly explained. I said she can use them as well as Nanaya Shiki specifically, who has not mastered them either. He was only taught the basics in case he needed to defend himself. It's fair to assume that the Ryougis would have been trained in using the basics in a competent manner as well, since otherwise there would be no real in point in learning them to begin with. Ryougi Shiki is literally stated to have "Nanaya Shiki's Nanaya Techniques" and her performance with 17 dissections is stated to be almost the same as that of the other Shiki. We have also seen that she can execute Seven Nights rather well. And given that Seven Nights and 17 dissections are Nanaya's best moves as far as we know, I see no reason to place him so far beyond her in technical skill. And if Ryougi with a knife is skilled enough to grasp the fundamentals of Nanaya's training and use them with similar efficiency, her skill increase with hypnosis would result very problematic indeed. Especially if she uses the Arts in combination with it, which might result in unique effects.
The Nanayas may be proficient with small weapons, but it doesn't necessarily mean that the same applies to their martial arts. Obviously small weapons would be more optimal for them, since their fighting style involves ample use of flexibility and beastly movements, which would be more tedious to pull off with a longer weapon.....

Spoiler

Unless you are MGR Raiden

We know that the Nanaya Arts' effect is to bring out the limit of the user's body, which should not be inherently tied to a specifc weapon. And their effects are mainly the ability to attack and move at extremely fast speed, with the stronger techniques being more advanced application of that principle. I don't think it's a stretch that they could be used with a sword as well (And It's implied in Ryougi's profile in the 4th poll that she can still make 17 dissections with her sword indeed). I also remember something about Ryougi actually using her knife still as if it was some kind of a small sword (though I may be wrong on this), and yet she could still do something like Seven Nights with it.

This also wouldn't contradict what we know, as the Nanayas would still be the best by virtue of having completely mastered the Arts. It is also worth noting that the Nanaya being the best is in the context of an overall comparison, which would include their physical stats and, most importantly, their assassination skills, which allowed them to take out demons that they otherwise wouldn't be able to defeat in a direct fight. The Ryougis are much more straightforward in combat and in their way of moving, so they would have a much harder harder time dealing with the demons, who have abilities like altering the temperature with a glare. With the stronger ones being capable of outright killing dozens of demon hunters per the narrator. The Nanaya's ability to kill demons undetected and to throw them off guard with their movements would be far more effective under that situation. We also see this by how Kiri was able to eliminate Tohno's assassins in his forest and by making use of his traps and assassination skills, despite him believing that they wouldn't be able to deal with them out in the open. With this I'm not necessarily saying that the Ryougis are as good as the Nanayas (In fact I already said that they would be more skilled), but there are other factors to consider beside exclusively skill.

But I must say that you mentioning how Ryougi is an outlier and your later proposition regarding Nanaya growing stronger as he fights made me think of an alternate scenario:

Could it be that, precisely because she is an outlier, Shiki was the only one among the Ryougis who have managed to truly obtain the Nanaya Techniques? I say this because, when talking about her fighting style, she explained in detail how her hypnosis works, and then she stated regarding her hand to hand moves "I only copied what I had seen" (Which seems to suggests she has some aptitude for copying fighting styles), and that she never actually used her family's main style so far (this was before the fight with Araya). Could it be that she copied the Nanaya Arts from seeing/hearing about them and thus is probably one of, if not the only one, of the Ryougis who could effectively use them? This is rather heavy speculation, but it honestly makes more sense in the grand scheme of things now that I think about it. Who knows.

i do think she has a speed advantage though still because her skill with a knife would be vastly inferior to AA Tohno

Based on what is her skill vastly inferior to AA Tohno when she is rather close to Nanaya? Tohno does not have all of Nanaya's memory and skills, and mostly relies on istinct, with him sometimes not even realising what he is really doing (Like against full power Akiha). Rather, a better argument for her decisive overall superiority would be her physical fragility with a knife. Given that Araya wrecked her with a punch capable of snapping a tree, while Tohno can cut through people that have survived having the moon being slammed on them in weaker incarnations, she obviously would have needed to defeat Tohno without getting hit even once and without clashing with him which speaks to her speed yes, but I wouldn't rule it out as being a showing of skill as well.

MB Ryougi with a sword could blitz someone who could blitz knife Ryougi,

Yes. While being heavily wounded to the point of it being a miracle that she could even move, on top of being slowed down by a space freezing bounded field at that.

he would be significantly superior to her in skill

Mmh. Again, Ryougi can execute his Techniques on a similar level with a knife. I am willing to place Nanaya beyond her in skill even ignoring his beastly movements, if only for his likely greater aptitude for the Arts, perhaps due to his genes or even his greater potential (Though this is also speculation, and mostly me trying to find a realistic reason to make him more skilled despite her performance being "almost" the same as his). But it would only be by a notch or two. I do not subscribe to the notion of him being more skilled than Ryougi with hypnosis at her peak.

Nanaya does not need to just strike at her lines, as he is fully capable of damaging her physically.

This goes both ways though. And Ryougi is incredibly durable, being able to no sell space crushing, True Magic-approaching attacks from Araya Souren despite being massively injured. And this was back in KnK when she was far weaker. She was also able to physically damage Araya, whereas Nanaya noted he would not survive a direct hit from the 999th Beast, who was slightly weakened as well (It's the combination of all his 666 beasts condensed, but Nrvnqsr noted he only had 560 remaining before using it). You'll probably argue that Nanaya was more wounded than Ryougi, and I would be inclined to agree with that, but the disparity is not such that he would get downed by slightly weaker attacks than those that cannot even visibly damage Ryougi beyond shredding her jacket. And even if it was, the gap between KnK Ryougi and MB Ryougi would more than make up for it anyway. Adding her better precog and longer reach, and I don't think it would be convenient for Nanaya to enter a physical fight.

along with doing some weird shit like destroying the floor to catch her off guard will not work due to her precog.

Yes, especially considering that Ryougi at her weakest casually survived the collapse of a 10km bridge while being tired and missing an arm. That would also only be possible if we assume they are fighting in an area with a floor and not the ground. Plus this also goes both ways, given that Ryougi can kill the floor as well.

i believe it is possible that it wouldn't apply to Nanaya if the first scenario is true where it's just a matter of Tohno passively relearning/remembering what was taught to Nanaya in the past as he fights. this wouldn't apply to Nanaya of course because Nanaya has all of his memories.

however, it's possible that him getting stronger and better the more he fights is a passive trait. this would explain why Nanaya's potential is so stupidly high that one to two years of training as a child was comparable to 20 years of training for Ryougi, who is already an extreme outlier for her clan.

I can't deny that the second scenario is a possibility. But the first scenario seems to make more sense generally, and there is no mention of Nanaya growing stronger in the fights he has been in as far as I know. But if that's your approach, then fair enough.

a fight between Nanaya and MB sword Ryougi would be a long one. and time is the last thing on Ryougi's side here. Nanaya will take a defensive route if he needs to while he's calculating his opponent (as seen with one outcome against Akiha). neither combatant will act carelessly and leave themselves open due to clumsy recklessness.

Actually, if Ryougi sees that Nanaya is starting to outclass her (or even foresees it with her future sight), she would resort to using the Nanaya Arts like against Araya. That would increase her speed massively and enough to secure her the win, unless she refrains from using them for some reason. So I would argue she is still coming out on top even if we apply your idea of Nanaya growing stronger during a fight. That is, unless Nanaya suddenly grows far higher than Ryougi could handle quickly and before she can properly counter (Since you pointed out the massive leaps he can gain). However, it's also possible that, again, Ryougi could predict this with her future sight and act accordingly.

Nanaya's death sense will also be able to counter Ryougi's precog enough to where he can keep up with her.

Nanaya's death sense is only comparable to Normal Ryougi's sixth sense though. Later in MB her senses are capable of detecting stealthed opponents and sense presences on a town wide scale. It's reasonable to assume that her senses with hypnosis would have increased in a similar way, from where they could already see the future in KnK. But yes, I forgot about it. It would certainly be a factor, but Ryougi is simply better in the aspect of precog, and significantly I'd argue.

Nasu actually says Nanaya rates his own assassination skills as lacking, while Satsujinki can enter the lair of a family of Dead Apostles and assassinate them all without being detected.

Well, those lacking assassination skills did not prevent him from assassinating Arcueid. Didn't they? And I'd argue she is harder to assassinate than a lair of pratically fodder Dead Apostles. Still, I understand your point.

MF Ryougi on the other hand settled down with a family and had a child. she probably still trained a bit, but it either just stopped her from getting rusty or improved her slightly.

I strongly disagree here. Nothing suggest she would improve less than before. She already settled down as soon as KnK ended and Mana was born in 2000, whereas MBAA takes place in 2001, where we also know Ryougi is already the head of the family. And even before that, she was still busy attending high school (Lol). In spite of that, and the fact that she would spend at least several months not doing anything due to having to give birth to Mana (Who would also require more care than later on when she is older), she still improved massively in 3 years. And it's not like Ryougi trained that extensively back in KnK to begin with (She spends most of the time lazying around or taking walks at night. And I have no reason to assume that any of her missions for Touko made her encounter opponents that could remotely challenge her like with Asagami and Araya). We also know that the Ryougis were heavy in swordmanship and founded their own school to challenge other swordmasters across the world IIRC. So if anything she would practice even more in MF. So I still stand by my point that MF Ryougi is astronomically above her MB self.

Though I am mainly pointing out here that her power progression should not be altered in any meaningful way in MF. I concede on Eclipse Nanaya beating her, even decisively. I was mainly questioning how big the gap actually was since there is a lack of details on the events around him. But since you mentioned that Nanaya was trained for only 1-2 years (Which I forgot completely), then I can see it being considerable, if not massive, regardless of what he did.

but in the end, Prime Soujuurou is the only assassin who could potentially match Shiki blow for blow at this point.

Spoiler

The Almighty Arika clowns them both.

 

[CrystalValley]

@HyperZero95

Guess I should start talking less lazily now since this is an actual debate of substance, which is extremely rare these days.

I never said that she outright mastered the Nanaya Arts. That wouldn't make sense, as you have correctly explained.

Could've swore you said this at another point in time, but alright then.

He was only taught the basics in case he needed to defend himself.

It seems after looking back on Red Demon God that it's possible he learned more. It said he learned the basics, but then the story progressed on further, so it's possible to likely that he learned more before the genocide of the clan. I'll check up on that again though soon.

Ryougi Shiki is literally stated to have "Nanaya Shiki's Nanaya Techniques"

She has the techniques, but they likely aren't at the same level is my point. While her rendition of Seven Nights is impressive, she clearly can't preform the real thing. Likewise, she cannot preform Nanaya's unorthodox movements. This further shows she is not as skilled as him in the arts.

her skill increase with hypnosis would result very problematic indeed. Especially if she uses the Arts in combination with it, which might result in unique effects.
The Nanayas may be proficient with small weapons, but it doesn't necessarily mean that the same applies to their martial arts. Obviously small weapons would be more optimal for them, since their fighting style involves ample use of flexibility and beastly movements, which would be more tedious to pull off with a longer weapon.....

Nothing seen with the Nanaya Arts implies it is compatible with a longer range weapon. On the contrary actually. It emphasizes high mobility and flexibility above all else. Even if there was Nanaya Art techniques she could use with a sword, they would likely be extremely limited in use.

We know that the Nanaya Arts' effect is to bring out the limit of the user's body, which should not be inherently tied to a specifc weapon.

Yes, that's the effect of their arts and training. But the arts are also their martial art/fighting style. My main argument is that Ryougi would not be able to preform the actual techniques because nothing implies they can be done with a sword, at least to the same level. It's possible she can get the stat limit increase effect, but that's about it.

I don't think it's a stretch that they could be used with a sword as well

Even if she could, the amount of techniques would be more limited, as well as the potential effectiveness.

(And It's implied in Ryougi's profile in the 4th poll that she can still make 17 dissections with her sword indeed).

Where was this? Even if this was the case though, that technique is fairly basic in the sense that it doesn't require any of the unorthodox movements most of the other techniques employ.

I also remember something about Ryougi actually using her knife still as if it was some kind of a small sword (though I may be wrong on this), and yet she could still do something like Seven Nights with it.

We know for a fact Ryougi's knife is just a knife. That was just one description of it. And in a way, you could view a knife like that as a small sword in a way. But it's still very small compared to an actual katana like what Ryougi with self-hypnosis uses.

This also wouldn't contradict what we know, as the Nanayas would still be the best by virtue of having completely mastered the Arts. It is also worth noting that the Nanaya being the best is in the context of an overall comparison, which would include their physical stats and, most importantly, their assassination skills, which allowed them to take out demons that they otherwise wouldn't be able to defeat in a direct fight.

For the most part, yes. But we've seen Kiri able to pull off directly taking out Saiki with his unorthodox moves and tactics immediately, while it was said that this would be impossible for the other clans (minus the outlier that is Shiki). But yes, I agree that assassination does play a factor.

Could it be that, precisely because she is an outlier, Shiki was the only one among the Ryougis who have managed to truly obtain the Nanaya Techniques? I say this because, when talking about her fighting style, she explained in detail how her hypnosis works, and then she stated regarding her hand to hand moves "I only copied what I had seen" (Which seems to suggests she has some aptitude for copying fighting styles), and that she never actually used her family's main style so far (this was before the fight with Araya). Could it be that she copied the Nanaya Arts from seeing/hearing about them and thus is probably one of, if not the only one, of the Ryougis who could effectively use them? This is rather heavy speculation, but it honestly makes more sense in the grand scheme of things now that I think about it. Who knows.

Hm, did it say she had never used her family's main style at that point? Well, your theory is possible. Though she'd logically have to witness an actual Nanaya clan member to copy their mastered techniques if this is the case. And nothing really implies she ever met one before Tohno in AA. And it wouldn't really make sense for her to be able to copy it just from hearing about the techniques. I mean I guess it's possible, but it's a huge stretch.

Based on what is her skill vastly inferior to AA Tohno when she is rather close to Nanaya?

Ryougi with a knife? The fact that the main style of her clan is not used with it. She would just be relying on some Nanaya Arts and other side martial arts to wield it. And her Nanaya Arts really shouldn't be anywhere near Tohno's, who still is extremely skilled with the arts. Though maybe "vastly" was a bit too much of a claim. But there shouldn't be any reason that she could equal Tohno in a knife fight with arts he was primarily trained in with a weapon he was meant to use, versus her whose main art being taught to her was the Ryougi's style, with her best weapon being a katana. Combine this with the fact their natural potential in learning and improving is vastly different and there is no reason she should be equal to Tohno with a knife in raw skill, even if he's not equal to Nanaya at this point.

Yes. While being heavily wounded to the point of it being a miracle that she could even move, on top of being slowed down by a space freezing bounded field at that.

Well it should be noted that she didn't blitz him wth the space freezing spell. That's what stopped him from actually getting blitzed and dying to her. But yes to the wounded part.

It should also be noted that Tohno alone in the Akiha Route while injured in combination with his death sensing was able to defend himself against Ciel, who had the speed to blitz him if not for his skill and death sensing. Ciel also had the more unorthodox movements on top of that. So Nanaya even if slower should be able to hold off Ryougi with her far more orthodox movements until the stat and skill spikes start coming around.

I do not subscribe to the notion of him being more skilled than Ryougi with hypnosis at her peak.

Ryougi has never shown to be able to preform his unorthodox movements, which would've helped her several times in battles, nor the ability to occupy multiple spaces with certain techniques. He should be more skilled than her period. She's likely in the same league though with a sword, but should be decisively lower in it.

This goes both ways though. And Ryougi is incredibly durable, being able to no sell space crushing, True Magic-approaching attacks from Araya Souren despite being massively injured. And this was back in KnK when she was far weaker. She was also able to physically damage Araya, whereas Nanaya noted he would not survive a direct hit from the 999th Beast, who was slightly weakened as well (It's the combination of all his 666 beasts condensed, but Nrvnqsr noted he only had 560 remaining before using it). You'll probably argue that Nanaya was more wounded than Ryougi, and I would be inclined to agree with that, but the disparity is not such that he would get downed by slightly weaker attacks than those that cannot even visibly damage Ryougi beyond shredding her jacket. And even if it was, the gap between KnK Ryougi and MB Ryougi would more than make up for it anyway. Adding her better precog and longer reach, and I don't think it would be convenient for Nanaya to enter a physical fight.

Never tried to say Ryougi couldn't damage him either. Just that Nanaya has more options than needing to strike her lines and points. Should be noted that even White Len Tatari Nanaya had the physical strength to destroy Nrvnqsr physically, which Ryougi wasn't capable of doing at all against Araya. I don't think the gap in MB would close this strength disadvantage when factoring in she'd be facing the superior real Nanaya. This could cause potential issues like her sword getting knocked out of her hand if they clashed blades due to the strength difference. Though it's possible that she may be strong enough to at least prevent this, she would be put on her back foot from the force of his hits regardless, which would stop her from just constantly pursuing him and attempting counters constantly.

I can't deny that the second scenario is a possibility. But the first scenario seems to make more sense generally, and there is no mention of Nanaya growing stronger in the fights he has been in as far as I know. But if that's your approach, then fair enough.

It should be noted that all Nanaya fights end pretty much instantly. He is never facing opposition that can press him in a fight beyond broken insta-kill on sight hax like Origami or the traps SHIKI set up while retreating. And even then, those fights end pretty much instantly with his victory. Much different from a fight against Ryougi here.

Actually, if Ryougi sees that Nanaya is starting to outclass her (or even foresees it with her future sight), she would resort to using the Nanaya Arts like against Araya.

The speed advantage was factoring in her peak speed advantage against Araya. She is not blitzing Nanaya. And if she could, it would be a lower-end one like against Ciel where even Tohno could defend himself for a bit while injured. And again, Nanaya should have the strength advantage to where a clash of blades would push her back and if she's not careful, potentially disarm her.

Nanaya's death sense is only comparable to Normal Ryougi's sixth sense though. Later in MB her senses are capable of detecting stealthed opponents and sense presences on a town wide scale. It's reasonable to assume that her senses with hypnosis would have increased in a similar way, from where they could already see the future in KnK. But yes, I forgot about it. It would certainly be a factor, but Ryougi is simply better in the aspect of precog, and significantly I'd argue.

The death sense argument was more in regards to helping him last longer, not that it is equal or superior to her precog. And yes, stealth is out of the question against either of them.

Well, those lacking assassination skills did not prevent him from assassinating Arcueid. Didn't they? And I'd argue she is harder to assassinate than a lair of pratically fodder Dead Apostles. Still, I understand your point.

Arcueid was completely off-guard and has nothing like precog to tell that he's coming. Furthermore, Louvre and his children already were told that "DEATH would appear before thee." They were expecting enemies in general and Shiki himself on top of that via the fortune telling, yet they all died still.

I strongly disagree here. Nothing suggest she would improve less than before. She already settled down as soon as KnK ended and Mana was born in 2000, whereas MBAA takes place in 2001, where we also know Ryougi is already the head of the family. And even before that, she was still busy attending high school (Lol). In spite of that, and the fact that she would spend at least several months not doing anything due to having to give birth to Mana (Who would also require more care than later on when she is older), she still improved massively in 3 years. And it's not like Ryougi trained that extensively back in KnK to begin with (She spends most of the time lazying around or taking walks at night. And I have no reason to assume that any of her missions for Touko made her encounter opponents that could remotely challenge her like with Asagami and Araya). We also know that the Ryougis were heavy in swordmanship and founded their own school to challenge other swordmasters across the world IIRC. So if anything she would practice even more in MF. So I still stand by my point that MF Ryougi is astronomically above her MB self.

Yeah, that's fair. I'll concede on that point.

Though I am mainly pointing out here that her power progression should not be altered in any meaningful way in MF. I concede on Eclipse Nanaya beating her, even decisively. I was mainly questioning how big the gap actually was since there is a lack of details on the events around him. But since you mentioned that Nanaya was trained for only 1-2 years (Which I forgot completely), then I can see it being considerable, if not massive, regardless of what he did.

I'll go as far as to say it isn't a stomp, since that would be stretching it. But yeah, we agree he wins regardless.

The Almighty Arika clowns them both.

This is why I said "assassin" instead of "main character." Though Arika without Hatred is getting clowned by either of them, since he's just a normal human combatively speaking.

 

[HyperZero95]

Could've swore you said this at another point in time, but alright then.

It's just a misunderstanding if anything. Let's move on.

It seems after looking back on Red Demon God that it's possible he learned more. It said he learned the basics, but then the story progressed on further, so it's possible to likely that he learned more before the genocide of the clan. I'll check up on that again though soon.

Mmh. I'd need to see that. Besides, Kiri's intention was to just make Shiki capable of defending himself in case something happened. Even if the story progressed further, we would have to assume he changed his mind and planned to make a complete training for Shiki, even though he planned to retire completely and live a quiet life. And before you say it, the Ryougis don't hunt demons anymore yes, but they are still combat enthusiasts and Shiki was properly trained in combat and frequently sparred with her father or practiced by herself.

She has the techniques, but they likely aren't at the same level is my point.

We know that her 17 dissections is "almost" the same as that of the other Shiki. They might not be 100% identical, but they still come very close. It also shows that it doesn't really matter if Nanaya went a bit beyond the basics in his training, since Ryougi has his same techniques with similar performance regardless.

While her rendition of Seven Nights is impressive, she clearly can't preform the real thing.

The technique itself is virtually identical (Throwing a knife and attacking at nearly the same time). It's the weird flip at the end that she was mainly lacking. Which stems from her body being unable to move in that way rather than a lack of skill.

Likewise, she cannot preform Nanaya's unorthodox movements. This further shows she is not as skilled as him in the arts.

Again, that speaks more for agility rather than skill. Obviously skill would play a factor in utilizing them, but considering that Nanaya can still naturally move his body that way, there has to be a limit to how much we can equate that to actual skill. Otherwise we would have to claim that Lio is more skilled than Ryougi because he could effectively use those movements in combat, or that True Assassin is more skilled than Archer because he can move like a spider. Bazett is also capable of adapting to Kuzuki's fighting style rather quickly, despite his unpredictable movements akin to a snake. The Nanaya Arts' effects are stats increases by drawing upon the absolute limit of the user's body, which would not require those movements, especially when 17 dissections is treated as a big deal, despite it being just 17 consecutive slashes.

Even if there was Nanaya Art techniques she could use with a sword, they would likely be extremely limited in use.

See the above paragraph for this, since it's essentially the same answer. We can't really say that they would be extremely limited in use, when attacking and moving really fast (Which can be easily performed with a sword) is their main actual effect, with one of its greatest variations being just 17 consecutive slashes. The only technique I can agree she is unable to use with her sword is Seven Nights for obvious reasons. Beside, I think we are mixing things up a bit here. My main point is that if Ryougi without hypnosis is skilled enough to learn and replicate Nanaya's techniques with similar efficiency, her with hypnosis would be substantially more skilled than that, and thus likely above Nanaya, even if she can't actually perform them anymore with a sword. Since her skill level that allowed her to learn the Arts to a comparable performance would still transfer over and be amped. Her being able to actually use them instead was more in reference to her being capable of using them to surpass Nanaya. Since her main speed is already on his level. Even if they are limited in use, they would still be noticeably above her innate speed. But I'm fine with going with her being unable to use them with a sword. Though I also find it rather silly that her peak self wouldn't have the same effectiveness as a weaker incarnation of her technique-wise.

But the arts are also their martial art/fighting style.

That's why I am willing to place Nanaya a bit ahead of knife Ryougi in skill. However, you are looking at it from an overall perspective: A fully trained Nanaya would be more skilled than a fully trained Ryougi indeed. But we cannot necessarily claim that Nanaya Shiki, who was not fully trained, would automatically be above them in skill as well.

It's possible she can get the stat limit increase effect, but that's about it.

That would already be sufficient to noticeably eclipse Nanaya in speed though.

Where was this? Even if this was the case though, that technique is fairly basic in the sense that it doesn't require any of the unorthodox movements most of the other techniques employ.

Her changing weapon is listed as a special attack. It makes her switch from knife to sword or from sword to knife. There is no mention that switching to a sword would give her an entirely different moveset, hence she should have the same moves including 17 dissections with it. Again, how is 17 dissections basic, when the only known better technique is Seven Nights? It is clearly held in high regard. Flashing Scabbard would be the most basic technique of that type.

For the most part, yes. But we've seen Kiri able to pull off directly taking out Saiki with his unorthodox moves and tactics immediately, while it was said that this would be impossible for the other clans (minus the outlier that is Shiki). But yes, I agree that assassination does play a factor.

The narrator made it clear that Kiri only came out alive of those missions because it was an assassination, and that attacking Saiki directly would have been suicidal, so it is clearly something that applies to the Nanayas, especially given how Kiri is described as "one in the million" among them. Thankfully enough, there was a table for him to move in and catch him off guard.

Hm, did it say she had never used her family's main style at that point? Well, your theory is possible. Though she'd logically have to witness an actual Nanaya clan member to copy their mastered techniques if this is the case. And nothing really implies she ever met one before Tohno in AA. And it wouldn't really make sense for her to be able to copy it just from hearing about the techniques. I mean I guess it's possible, but it's a huge stretch.

Yes, she said that she uses the principle of tensing her whole body and mind as a premise for any type of training. That principle is the basis of all martial arts, but the Ryougis specifically took it even further and outside natural paths with a self created style (Self Hypnosis). She then added that there has never been an occasion where she used her family's school so far though, and that her hand to hand moves that she showed earlier were "copying something she had seen" (And this would presumably apply to her style with a knife as well). And yeah, it's rather unlikely that she witnessed a Nanaya member using them. And her learning them just by hearing about them is a massive assumption and would require an insane amount of potential on her part that hasn't even been hinted at. However it's also possible that she saw them/their mechanics were explained to her from/by the Ryougis, but she was able to use them better than them, close to Nanaya Shiki himself. It's all speculation at the end of the day, which I already made clear when I proposed this. Just an alternate line of thought.

Ryougi with a knife? The fact that the main style of her clan is not used with it. She would just be relying on some Nanaya Arts and other side martial arts to wield it. And her Nanaya Arts really shouldn't be anywhere near Tohno's, who still is extremely skilled with the arts. Though maybe "vastly" was a bit too much of a claim. But there shouldn't be any reason that she could equal Tohno in a knife fight with arts he was primarily trained in with a weapon he was meant to use, versus her whose main art being taught to her was the Ryougi's style, with her best weapon being a katana. Combine this with the fact their natural potential in learning and improving is vastly different and there is no reason she should be equal to Tohno with a knife in raw skill, even if he's not equal to Nanaya at this point.

At the cost of sounding like a broken record at this point, I would agree with this if Nanaya received complete training. But he didn't. And even if you say Ryougi received only minimal training in the Arts as well (Which is very likely) she would still know about as much as he does, which is what it is basically stated in her profile, with her having "Nanaya Shiki's Nanaya techniques" and her 17 dissections being "almost the same". Tohno is below Nanaya and mostly relies on istinct. Therefore I really don't think he can stand up to any version of Ryougi skill-wise. Just because he was primarily trained with a knife does not mean he surpasses Ryougi, because you are comparing the Nanayas and the Ryougis overall. Nanaya Shiki himself wasn't fully trained, and I have no reason to assume that the Nanaya training eclipses that of the Ryougis so much that they cannot even remotely match even an incomplete portion of that training.

Well it should be noted that she didn't blitz him wth the space freezing spell. That's what stopped him from actually getting blitzed and dying to her. But yes to the wounded part.

She did:

The magus, Araya Souren - possessing the physical prowess to dodge even a speeding bullet after it was fired - leapt back after he had been completely cut, while not realizing he had been.

All that the barrier did was prevent him from dying:

That attack just now indeed would have brought him a fatal wound. Had Shiki's second slash killed not two, but three of his barriers, Araya's body would have been cleaved in two from the torso.

The barrier slowed down her slash enough to make her only cut his arm rather than his whole body. But It still couldn't make her slash slow enough for Araya to react to.

It should also be noted that Tohno alone in the Akiha Route while injured in combination with his death sensing was able to defend himself against Ciel, who had the speed to blitz him if not for his skill and death sensing. Ciel also had the more unorthodox movements on top of that. So Nanaya even if slower should be able to hold off Ryougi with her far more orthodox movements until the stat and skill spikes start coming around.

Fair enough here.

Ryougi has never shown to be able to preform his unorthodox movements, which would've helped her several times in battles,

So Lio is more skilled than Ryougi and equal to Nanaya? Once again, there is clearly a limit to how much this applies to technical skill. Kuzuki would lose to Bazett in a direct fight despite him being able to move in that manner unlike her. Those movements would be useful to throw Ryougi off guard. But between her precog and overall skill, she should eventually adapt to them.

nor the ability to occupy multiple spaces with certain techniques.

You do realise that "she never did that" is a commonly used argument by the Void downplayers, right? I could equally say that Nanaya never did the level of knife throwing she displayed against Araya, or that Kiri never did anything remarkable at all even against Kishima, even though he is supposedly more skilled than either of the Shikis. Or that Shiki himself never used 17 dissections or anything of the sorts in many fights. But I'm not because we know that they are able to make all of that. Likewise, we know that Ryougi has Nanaya Shiki's techniques and that she can perform his 2 best moves (17 dissections and Seven Nighs) to a very similar level. That's enough evidence in my eyes to safely assume she can perform the space technique, who has never been treated as being above those two. The only two opponents in the entire series where Ryougi had to actually try against were Asagami and Araya. The fomer could kill her with only a glare, and likely didn't give her the time to use any of them, on top of Ryougi still overall enjoying the fight and having still various opportunities to beat her until she eventually became able to see her powers with clarity and overwhelm her easily. While Araya could outright statue her, with her going for the best technique (Seven Nights) to compete with him.

Just that Nanaya has more options than needing to strike her lines and points

So does Ryougi though.

Should be noted that even White Len Tatari Nanaya had the physical strength to destroy Nrvnqsr physically, which Ryougi wasn't capable of doing at all against Araya. I don't think the gap in MB would close this strength disadvantage when factoring in she'd be facing the superior real Nanaya.

Nanaya was at full strength there though, and it was White Len Tatari Nrvnqsr. This means that it can be translated to their true selves, and that Nanaya at his peak can physically destroy Nrvnqsr, which I never contested. This also fits with Nanaya harming Kishima while injured. However, Araya was only able to barely harm a half dying Ryougi in KnK, which is a far cry from the one Nanaya is facing here. The Nrvnqsr section was instead meant to find out if he would being able to tank her strikes instead. Ryougi can harm Araya while being injured and in KnK already, whereas Nanaya wouldn't have a survived an attack from a slightly weakened 999th Beast while being more injured than Ryougi by a noticeable amount, but not massive still. A direct strike from a fully healthy Ryougi might prove devastating, nevermind her in MB.

It should be noted that all Nanaya fights end pretty much instantly. He is never facing opposition that can press him in a fight beyond broken insta-kill on sight hax like Origami or the traps SHIKI set up while retreating. And even then, those fights end pretty much instantly with his victory. Much different from a fight against Ryougi here.

Alright.

The speed advantage was factoring in her peak speed advantage against Araya. She is not blitzing Nanaya. And if she could, it would be a lower-end one like against Ciel where even Tohno could defend himself for a bit while injured.

I meant with her knife. Araya blitzed Ryougi, but after using them she could easily react to him. Therefore, if Ryougi is normally as fast as Nanaya, she would be probably too fast for him if she uses them. But again, we could set with her being unable to use them with a sword. She would still be able to replicate them to a higher extent with her own sword techniques though, since I refuse to believe that Ryougi with a knife can perform better than herself with a sword in technique, but perhaps she cannot replicate the pure stats increasing effect in that state.

And again, Nanaya should have the strength advantage to where a clash of blades would push her back and if she's not careful, potentially disarm her.

He would need to be massively, massively stronger than Araya to pull this off.

The death sense argument was more in regards to helping him last longer, not that it is equal or superior to her precog. And yes, stealth is out of the question against either of them.

Alright.

Arcueid was completely off-guard and has nothing like precog to tell that he's coming.

Did Louvre had precog? Fair on the off guard part. But I have a hard time believing that some random Dead Apostles would have better sensing than Arcueid.

Louvre and his children already were told that "DEATH would appear before thee." They were expecting enemies in general and Shiki himself on top of that via the fortune telling, yet they all died still.

Yes, but they still did not knew when he actually would appear, not to mention that they were busy fighting Lorelei as well. I'd still see that as similar to 30% Arcueid, where she expected to see someone when she opened the door.

I'll go as far as to say it isn't a stomp, since that would be stretching it. But yeah, we agree he wins regardless.

Actually, if what you said about Nanaya only training for 1-2 years is true, he might indeed stomp even. Since that's an insane growth potential.

All in all, I think that we hold the outcome of these fights in the same manner: Ryougi wins normally, unless we go with the Nanaya growing stronger overtime theory. And Eclipse Nanaya is well above any version of Ryougi. It seems our only real issue is the skill aspect.

 

[CrystalValley]

It's just a misunderstanding if anything. Let's move on.

Mmh. I'd need to see that. Besides, Kiri's intention was to just make Shiki capable of defending himself in case something happened. Even if the story progressed further, we would have to assume he changed his mind and planned to make a complete training for Shiki, even though he planned to retire completely and live a quiet life. And before you say it, the Ryougis don't hunt demons anymore yes, but they are still combat enthusiasts and Shiki was properly trained in combat and frequently sparred with her father or practiced by herself.

That's fair. Though when were the Ryougi explicitly described as "combat enthusiasts"? It should be noted still though that Nanaya would be superior to her in the arts just based off what we've seen from him. He clearly knows and can preform more than her. So even if he only knows the basics, it's to a higher degree than her, who probably just knows a portion of the basics.

We know that her 17 dissections is "almost" the same as that of the other Shiki. They might not be 100% identical, but they still come very close. It also shows that it doesn't really matter if Nanaya went a bit beyond the basics in his training, since Ryougi has his same techniques with similar performance regardless.

Don't recall it saying "almost" or having a direct comparison of the performance period.

It's the weird flip at the end that she was mainly lacking. Which stems from her body being unable to move in that way rather than a lack of skill.

Again, that speaks more for agility rather than skill. Obviously skill would play a factor in utilizing them, but considering that Nanaya can still naturally move his body that way, there has to be a limit to how much we can equate that to actual skill. Otherwise we would have to claim that Lio is more skilled than Ryougi because he could effectively use those movements in combat, or that True Assassin is more skilled than Archer because he can move like a spider. Bazett is also capable of adapting to Kuzuki's fighting style rather quickly, despite his unpredictable movements akin to a snake. The Nanaya Arts' effects are stats increases by drawing upon the absolute limit of the user's body, which would not require those movements, especially when 17 dissections is treated as a big deal, despite it being just 17 consecutive slashes.

Just because one can move like that doesn't mean they can do it properly where it is actually useful for combat. Lio can preform the movements, but they are sloppy and fodder. TA is only skilled in movement and throwing his dirks, not actual CQC. As for Kuzuki Vs. Bazzet, it's not that unorthodox automatically equates to more skilled. Nanaya Vs. Ryougi in the Nanaya Arts is a special example because it shows he can preform more things with the arts that she cannot. Anyways, all of these people are different from a guy who can preform these movements competently and with extreme precision, capable of incorporating it into his CQC fighting style. Lio is just sloppy and can't make efficient use of those movements for attacking. TA sucks at CQC. And I just addressed the Kuzuki thing.

We can't really say that they would be extremely limited in use, when attacking and moving really fast (Which can be easily performed with a sword) is their main actual effect

I would argue their movements are just as important considering this is Kiri's primary thing he relies on to kill people.

That would already be sufficient to noticeably eclipse Nanaya in speed though.

No? Not to the point of a blitz at all. You seem to be thinking that Ryougi with a sword and the Nanaya Arts > Ryougi with a sword > people who can blitz knife Ryougi. But no, Ryougi with a sword would always be using the Nanaya Arts if she could. She's not the type to randomly hold back, especially against Araya in that fight. She would've used all of the tools at her disposal, meaning if she could use some of the Nanaya Arts with her sword, she did.

Her changing weapon is listed as a special attack. It makes her switch from knife to sword or from sword to knife. There is no mention that switching to a sword would give her an entirely different moveset, hence she should have the same moves including 17 dissections with it. Again, how is 17 dissections basic, when the only known better technique is Seven Nights? It is clearly held in high regard. Flashing Scabbard would be the most basic technique of that type.

Changing to a sword would naturally change your entire move set because you are wielding a weapon that must be wielded entirely differently. Hell, the Nanaya Arts involve mostly holding a knife in a reverse-grip. We see Tohno and Nanaya use Seventeen Dissections by leaping at the opponent with a one-handed reverse-grip. You can't do that with a katana.

The narrator made it clear that Kiri only came out alive of those missions because it was an assassination, and that attacking Saiki directly would have been suicidal, so it is clearly something that applies to the Nanayas, especially given how Kiri is described as "one in the million" among them. Thankfully enough, there was a table for him to move in and catch him off guard.

Yes, they were assassinations, but Kiri was also massively outnumbered in those missions. And it was a direct assault against Saiki. He just used the environment to his advantage. He also almost defeated an untrained Kishima. And while he was untrained a much weaker, he was still capable of killing his own clan by himself. Depsite this, Kiri was able to keep up a prolonged fight with him and strike him over 40 times without getting hit. An untrained Kouma >>> most hybrids >> most demon hunters. I'm just saying the Nanaya clan as a whole is clearly superior to the Ryougis by a large amount. Of course Shiki herself is an exception, as we both know.

The barrier slowed down her slash enough to make her only cut his arm rather than his whole body. But It still couldn't make her slash slow enough for Araya to react to.

If it slowed her down enough to where it hit his harm rather than this body, it means he dodged at the last moment it was slowed to avoid a fatal blow. If he failed to react to the point he just stood there the entire time, she would've still hit him. It just would've taken longer. Remember his barrier only slows things. It does not redirect them. So if he just stood there, she would've hit the exact spot she intended. Araya could not react to her speed until she was affected by the barrier, to which he could barely instinctively dodge.

You do realise that "she never did that" is a commonly used argument by the Void downplayers, right?

This is a bad false equivalence. Void has plenty of statements on what she can do. Ryougi has no statements that she can do this, no implications, and no showings, despite the fact this could've helped her in fights. That culminates in zero evidence towards her being able to do this.

With that being said, I would like to backtrack potentially on the real Nanaya doing this. I just realized that technique in specific was from White Len Nanaya, who while weaker physically due to White Len's Tatari shit, should be more skilled because he was a hypothetical Nanaya who stayed with the clan. But the other techniques and movements are still examples regardless.

or that Kiri never did anything remarkable at all even against Kishima, even though he is supposedly more skilled than either of the Shikis.

That's silly. Kiri lacked the physical power and abilities to put down Kishima, not the skill. And we both yesterday were talking about how Kiri could not stand up to Kishima because his origin was not death like Shiki, which later on combined with his near-death experience awakened his mind to a far higher level of existence than normal to the point his body breaks its limits just to keep up with his transcendent mind. A similar situation with Ryougi. The fact Kiri landed over 40 hits in fatal areas to a guy he cannot damage and who can one shot him speaks volumes to his skill. The only reason he even got hit was because he expected his final attack to kill Kishima, so he put his all into it, but it only damaged Kishima instead of killing him. So Kiri was left open, grabbed and thrown, then got his skull smashed.

Likewise, we know that Ryougi has Nanaya Shiki's techniques and that she can perform his 2 best moves (17 dissections and Seven Nighs) to a very similar level.

Wouldn't assume they are to a similar level. Again, the movements are a big part of the style and she can't preform any of them really. Again, it's like Nanaya learned the basics while Ryougi learned a portion of the basics, and those that she did learn were likely to a lesser extent.

So does Ryougi though.

Never said she didn't. I think you forgot your initial argument here. You were saying Ryougi would automatically know where Nanaya would be striking at just because she knows where her lines and points are and thus where he'd aim. I'm just pointing out he isn't limited to only striking her lines or points. I know it works in reverse too.

Nanaya was at full strength there though, and it was White Len Tatari Nrvnqsr. This means that it can be translated to their true selves, and that Nanaya at his peak can physically destroy Nrvnqsr, which I never contested. This also fits with Nanaya harming Kishima while injured. However, Araya was only able to barely harm a half dying Ryougi in KnK, which is a far cry from the one Nanaya is facing here. The Nrvnqsr section was instead meant to find out if he would being able to tank her strikes instead. Ryougi can harm Araya while being injured and in KnK already, whereas Nanaya wouldn't have a survived an attack from a slightly weakened 999th Beast while being more injured than Ryougi by a noticeable amount, but not massive still. A direct strike from a fully healthy Ryougi might prove devastating, nevermind her in MB.

Yeah, it can be translated to their true selves. I was never against this. I'm saying Ryougi even with a sword has nothing to suggest she could physically one shot someone at Nrvnqsr's level like Araya. She has shown great durability, but not the capabilities to just crush him physically. Ryougi seems to have the durability advantage. Nanaya seems to have the strength advantage. The strength advantage here I'd argue is more important simply because if they clashed weapons, she would be the one getting knocked back, knocked off balance, or in the worst case, her getting disarmed. My main point of bringing this up is that Nanaya should be able to defend himself even better until the stat spikes, as Ryougi would not be able to relentlessly pursue him and preform followup attacks constantly if she's put on her backfoot from the sheer force of his strength when clashing blades with him. It's just another factor to help his survivability in the beginning. the disarm thing is a lower chance, but would become more of an issue later once his stats start spiking.

Did Louvre had precog? Fair on the off guard part. But I have a hard time believing that some random Dead Apostles would have better sensing than Arcueid.

Neither of them have precog. All I'm saying is it's far more impressive to assassinate a family of highly alert Dead Apostles in their own home expecting Shiki specifically, compared to assassinating an off-guard Arcueid, who has never really been shown to have great senses, let alone precog.

Yes, but they still did not knew when he actually would appear, not to mention that they were busy fighting Lorelei as well. I'd still see that as similar to 30% Arcueid, where she expected to see someone when she opened the door.

Louvre was not directly engaged in combat with them yet, so he was not distracted by them. Their presence just made him and his family more alert because an actual conflict was happening, on top of the fact he knew that Shiki would appear that night and knew how deadly he was. Arcueid opened the door at point-blank range to what she thought was a completely normal human. The former is massively more impressive than the latter.

All in all, I think that we hold the outcome of these fights in the same manner: Ryougi wins normally, unless we go with the Nanaya growing stronger overtime theory. And Eclipse Nanaya is well above any version of Ryougi. It seems our only real issue is the skill aspect.

Yes, we agree Ryougi wins without the whole Nanaya gets stronger and better the more he fights interpretation. But that interpretation seems more likely in my opinion. And our debate is really just how the fight would go down with that interpretation. And you agree Eclipse Shiki is too much for Ryougi. So it's really just that one discussion out of the 3 that we are somewhat disagreeing on.

TLDR: We agree on Ryougi winning with the first interpretation. We agree that Eclipse Shiki is too much for any version of Ryougi. But we are disagreeing on who would win between Ryougi and Nanaya with the second interpretation. That's all this really comes down too.

Also, I'm going to be busy as of late, so I may not reply for a while or at all. If it's the latter, I may hit you up somewhere else later down the line to continue this, since I'm probably not going to be around here anymore.

 

[HyperZero95]

That's fair. Though when were the Ryougi explicitly described as "combat enthusiasts"?

Well, it wasn't explicitly stated. But we know that they train in combat and go as far as to challenge other swordmasters and found their own school. Shiki also said that it was a tradition for the head of the family to have spars with other masters. We can infer from all of that they enjoy combat. Especially considering that even their dual personalities were developed with the objective of integrating as many skills as possible in a single human body, meaning that they are a more physically/combat oriented type of demon hunters like the Nanayas, and unlike the Asagamis and the Fujos, who relied on telekinesis and curses/spiritual sight respectively. "Enthusiast" was probably an exaggeration, but they clearly value combat.

So even if he only knows the basics, it's to a higher degree than her, who probably just knows a portion of the basics.

Problem is that she is flat out stated to have his same techniques. Meaning that even if we were to assume that Nanaya learned more than her, it would be in the application of those techniques, not their amount or type.

Don't recall it saying "almost" or having a direct comparison of the performance period.

Yes:

"Her performance with the 17 dissections is almost the exact same as someone else's"

Just because one can move like that doesn't mean they can do it properly where it is actually useful for combat.

I'm aware of that. But that's not really my point. My point is that Nanaya can still naturally move his body in such a way, and therefore it's unfair to claim he is more skilled purely because of that. Nanaya could incorporate a wall run and an impossibly flexible flip into his Seven Nights. Ryougi would not be able to do that no matter how hard she tries, not because she is less skilled, but because her body simply isn't built for moving in such manners. We do know that her 17 dissections is almost the exact same. And her Seven Nights only lacked that flip. That certainly implies that the main problem are those movements specifically, and not the techniques themselves.

Lio can preform the movements, but they are sloppy and fodder.

No? He can still effectively use them to throw a skilled fighter off guard. He would move like a snake into an enclosed area that would normally be difficult to work with for a normal fighter, only for him to immediately switch to something else and explosively jump and suddenly attack from above. He may not have experience as a fighter, but he can still use his movements well through instinct. When he reached his peak, he even outright surpassed the line of an actual animal, becoming something else entirely.

TA is only skilled in movement and throwing his dirks, not actual CQC.

Fair.

As for Kuzuki Vs. Bazzet, it's not that unorthodox automatically equates to more skilled.

That's what you seemed to say from my perspective. My bad then.

is a special example because it shows he can preform more things with the arts that she cannot.

More things with the arts, or with his way of moving? Because from what we have seen Ryougi can fulfill the main effects of the techniques (Attacking/moving very fast, slice 17 consecutive times, throw a knife at high speeds and attack at nearly the same time). I still remain unconvinced that it necessarily makes him more skilled.

a guy who can preform these movements competently and with extreme precision, capable of incorporating it into his CQC fighting style.

You described Kuzuki as well here though?

I would argue their movements are just as important considering this is Kiri's primary thing he relies on to kill people.

They are important, but they aren't the arts actual effects (limit breaking stats increases for brief maneuvers). They go hand in hand, since those movements makes them more difficult to deal with or counter, but they are not exactly the same I would say.

No? Not to the point of a blitz at all. You seem to be thinking that Ryougi with a sword and the Nanaya Arts > Ryougi with a sword > people who can blitz knife Ryougi. But no, Ryougi with a sword would always be using the Nanaya Arts if she could. She's not the type to randomly hold back, especially against Araya in that fight. She would've used all of the tools at her disposal, meaning if she could use some of the Nanaya Arts with her sword, she did.

We don't really know if she used them though. Since nothing she did there was something that couldn't be accomplished normally, and she was in a state of near death. But I have already set with her being unable to increase her stats with them, since there are too many unknowns and they are still two entirely different styles. I do think she should be able to do flashing scabbard/flashing step-like moves still. Since I find it unreasonable that a far more skilled version of her would suddenly be incapable of those.

Changing to a sword would naturally change your entire move set because you are wielding a weapon that must be wielded entirely differently. Hell, the Nanaya Arts involve mostly holding a knife in a reverse-grip. We see Tohno and Nanaya use Seventeen Dissections by leaping at the opponent with a one-handed reverse-grip. You can't do that with a katana.

No, but you can certainly slash 17 consecutive times with it, and Ryougi could already do that with a knife. I can freely agree that maybe she cannot use the Arts actually, but she must have some equivalent sword moves that are at least similar to the Nanaya Arts basics that she learned.

I'm just saying the Nanaya clan as a whole is clearly superior to the Ryougis by a large amount.

Sure. And I never disproved that. I mostly wanted to point out that it didn't include just skill.

Araya could not react to her speed until she was affected by the barrier, to which he could barely instinctively dodge.

And that dodge failed. Since Araya only realised that she cut his arm after he dodged (Or at least he tried to). The barrier slowed her down enough for Araya to leap back, but Shiki could still slash faster then he could process. Perhaps her overall speed wasn't blitz tier anymore, but at the very least her slashing speed still was.

Ryougi has no statements that she can do this, no implications, and no showings, despite the fact this could've helped her in fights. That culminates in zero evidence towards her being able to do this.

She has no showings. But she has statements (Her having "Nanaya Shiki's Nanaya techniques" [And not "Nanaya techniques except for this one"]) and some implications (Can perform 17 dissections and Seven Nights, with at least the latter being treated as a superior technique). I can accept her not performing it on the same level, but she should have it.

With that being said, I would like to backtrack potentially on the real Nanaya doing this. I just realized that technique in specific was from White Len Nanaya, who while weaker physically due to White Len's Tatari shit, should be more skilled because he was a hypothetical Nanaya who stayed with the clan. But the other techniques and movements are still examples regardless.

Actually, where is it stated that he is Nanaya if he stayed with the clan? Because I checked even on tmdict and there was nothing about that. He also seemed to know Kishima and what he did, which wouldn't make sense if that was the case as well. Furthermore, even if that was true, Ryougi was specifically compared to the Nanaya that lacked MEODP, meaning that it's either the White Len one anyway, or the one in KT. So it's not so clear cut.

That's silly. Kiri lacked the physical power and abilities to put down Kishima, not the skill. And we both yesterday were talking about how Kiri could not stand up to Kishima because his origin was not death like Shiki, which later on combined with his near-death experience awakened his mind to a far higher level of existence than normal to the point his body breaks its limits just to keep up with his transcendent mind. A similar situation with Ryougi. The fact Kiri landed over 40 hits in fatal areas to a guy he cannot damage and who can one shot him speaks volumes to his skill. The only reason he even got hit was because he expected his final attack to kill Kishima, so he put his all into it, but it only damaged Kishima instead of killing him. So Kiri was left open, grabbed and thrown, then got his skull smashed.

Kouma was noted to have received no training at all and being a destructive force. I'd say that any competent fighter at the levels we are talking about would be capable to dodge attacks from a brawler that purely uses physical attacks and has no actual training or experience in combat. Especially when Kiri noted that Kouma's speed was nothing once he got used to it, meaning Kouma's only advantage was strength. Even Archer and Kuzuki can casually take on physically stronger beings, and they should not be as skilled as Kiri. Besides, my point was how Kiri did not display the space technique or anything of the sorts. But the fight wasn't described in details, so I guess he might have done it off screen.

Wouldn't assume they are to a similar level. Again, the movements are a big part of the style and she can't preform any of them really. Again, it's like Nanaya learned the basics while Ryougi learned a portion of the basics, and those that she did learn were likely to a lesser extent.

I addressed this above. Also, something I forgot to add going back to AA Tohno. May be off track, but I consider it important to point out. You claimed Ryougi was far less skilled but won through a speed advantage. However, skill is usually the most important factor unless the difference is blitz tier, and Tohno has his death sense as well to offset any speed advantage Ryougi might have, on top of being physically much stronger to the point he can one shot Ryougi. He should have by all means won, having the advantage in any relevant area outside of speed, which could be circumvented through his death sense anyway. So either Ryougi was that much faster, which would scale her sword self and make it harder for Nanaya, or she would have needed to be at the very least similarly as skilled as Tohno with a knife, especially when she had to beat him without even clashing once with him. And if Ryougi with a knife is similar to Tohno, you should agree that her with a sword would be similar to Nanaya (even though I personally do think they are more skilled respectively).

You were saying Ryougi would automatically know where Nanaya would be striking at just because she knows where her lines and points are and thus where he'd aim. I'm just pointing out he isn't limited to only striking her lines or points. I know it works in reverse too.

I said that went both ways though, just that R. Shiki would be more favored there due to her much better precog and longer reach.

Yeah, it can be translated to their true selves. I was never against this. I'm saying Ryougi even with a sword has nothing to suggest she could physically one shot someone at Nrvnqsr's level like Araya. She has shown great durability, but not the capabilities to just crush him physically. Ryougi seems to have the durability advantage. Nanaya seems to have the strength advantage. The strength advantage here I'd argue is more important simply because if they clashed weapons, she would be the one getting knocked back, knocked off balance, or in the worst case, her getting disarmed. My main point of bringing this up is that Nanaya should be able to defend himself even better until the stat spikes, as Ryougi would not be able to relentlessly pursue him and preform followup attacks constantly if she's put on her backfoot from the sheer force of his strength when clashing blades with him. It's just another factor to help his survivability in the beginning. the disarm thing is a lower chance, but would become more of an issue later once his stats start spiking.

Conceded there. Although I would like to highlight that Ryougi was half dead against Araya, and she grew much stronger later in MB, so it's not entirely impossible for her to be that strong. But I guess we lack conclusive evidence on that.



Conceded on Louvre stuff too. I'm not that interested in DEATH to begin with, since we both agree he is above Ryougi.

But we are disagreeing on who would win between Ryougi and Nanaya with the second interpretation.

I don't disagree actually. I said that Ryougi might still win by using the Nanaya Arts with her sword, but now I discarded the idea that she can increase her stats with it, even if she should be able to perform similar moves by all logical inference.

The vast majority of our discussion was actually centered on finding out who is more skilled between them. And considering the direction we seem to have been going, we may not reach an agreement on that.

Also, I'm going to be busy as of late, so I may not reply for a while or at all. If it's the latter, I may hit you up somewhere else later down the line to continue this, since I'm probably not going to be around here anymore.

Alright.

 

[PandaCooler]

I have to question how the hell Lugh Beowulf is beneath Shizuki when everything in Mahoyo states that Shizuki stands no chance at all against Beo.

 

[HyperZero95]

I have to question how the hell Lugh Beowulf is beneath Shizuki when everything in Mahoyo states that Shizuki stands no chance at all against Beo.

What? Touko literally said Aoko and Alice are invincible with Soujuurou there. Shizuki quite literally took Beo down in 2 hits, with Beowulf only surviving through regen. Beowulf himself said Soujuurou held back and if Beowulf tried to retaliate now, Soujuurou would just stomp his skull in. Also, it says that Soujuurou dealt damage in porpotion to what Beowulf did to Aoko and Alice. He did not have the intent to kill. And that if Beowulf killed either of them when Soujuurou arrived, Beowulf would not be alive now.

All the statements regarding him standing no chance are before he was revealed to be a fighter. It's to create hype and generate a huge pay off once Beo gets demolished. (Nasuverse does the same with Servants, but to an even greater extent that even disregard consistency sometimes, but I digress).

Furthermore, this was also done by a massively weakened Shizuki (He got weaker by living in modern society). In his prime, he is stated to be stronger than all of Type Moon's protagonists, which is well enough to decimate Beowulf.

 

[PandaCooler]

What? Touko literally said Aoko and Alice are invincible with Soujuurou there. Shizuki quite literally took Beo down in 2 hits, with Beowulf only surviving through regen. Beowulf himself said Soujuurou held back and if Beowulf tried to retaliate now, Soujuurou would just stomp his skull in. Also, it says that Soujuurou dealt damage in porpotion to what Beowulf did to Aoko and Alice. He did not have the intent to kill. And that if Beowulf killed either of them when Soujuurou arrived, Beowulf would not be alive now.

All the statements regarding him standing no chance are before he was revealed to be a fighter. It's to create hype and generate a huge pay off once Beo gets demolished. (Nasuverse does the same with Servants, but to an even greater extent that even disregard consistency sometimes, but I digress).

Furthermore, this was also done by a massively weakened Shizuki (He got weaker by living in modern society). In his prime, he is stated to be stronger than all of Type Moon's protagonists, which is well enough to decimate Beowulf.

Okay, I really got to question, what the **** you were reading.

The narration explicitly states that Beo's loss was completely trauma based. He's in a state of fear not cause Shizuki could actually kill him, but because he BELIEVES he could. The story even goes on to further emphasize this is purely later because Shizuki's body is entirely broken down as a result of those two hits.

The narration even states that if Beo hadn't have just charged like an idiot (cause he's a kid) then Shizuki's two hit wouldn't have even pulled it off. Everything in the narrative of that fight lays it out clearly that Shizuki won cause Beo is a kid who's never experienced a loss before, not cause Shizuki could actually manage to beat him outright.

Hell later on, Touko mentions the only one who could beat Beo with no caveats was Aoko AFTER she obtains the fifth.

 

[HyperZero95]

Okay, I really got to question, what the **** you were reading.

The narration explicitly states that Beo's loss was completely trauma based. He's in a state of fear not cause Shizuki could actually kill him, but because he BELIEVES he could. The story even goes on to further emphasize this is purely later because Shizuki's body is entirely broken down as a result of those two hits.

The narration even states that if Beo hadn't have just charged like an idiot (cause he's a kid) then Shizuki's two hit wouldn't have even pulled it off. Everything in the narrative of that fight lays it out clearly that Shizuki won cause Beo is a kid who's never experienced a loss before, not cause Shizuki could actually manage to beat him outright.

Hell later on, Touko mentions the only one who could beat Beo with no caveats was Aoko AFTER she obtains the fifth.

Beowulf literally died until he regenerated. If Beo was that much superior, he would have killed Shizuki regardless if he charged in or not. Beo's trauma started AFTER he was taken down, because he realised he wasn't as invincible as he was. In no way does that mean that he would have magically no sold Shizuki's hits if he didn't charge at him. That's ludicrous. Beo's trauma prevented him from resuming the fight, but his initial loss was legit and non circumstantial

And it said Beo realized that Soujuurou only dealt damage in proportion to what he did to Aoko and Alice and that if he killed either of them, Beo would not be alive still. Soujuurou was also ready to give a death blow if Beo got up and tried to retaliate.

And no, Touko (Not the narration), stated that if Beowulf charged in instead of trying to attack, he would've won.
Touko is not an omniscient source. And I would trust a MUCH older creature with much more battle experience who was directly participating in the fight over Touko. Especially since Touko isn't even a physical fighter. And even then, Touko also said that Aoko and Alice are invincible with Shizuki there, and had to hit him when he was off guard.

You also didn't address that Shizuki was massively weakened.

 

[PandaCooler]

Again, I have to question what the **** you're reading.

I guess this is all just Touko's thoughts, even though there's no indication as such (Internal thoughts are in brackets by the way.)

And then we have this

Man, it's almost like Beo is a Divine Beast with unbelievable regen or something...

look at that, Baited... which he was, cause the entire reason beo went into a wild charge was cause Shizuki kept calling him a mangy dog.

And there you have a contrast of Touko thoughts vs Narration

More thoughts and narration of Beo's inexperience due to just being a kid.

And to finally drive the point home... it's equivalent to a grazed Knee for Beowulf.




By the way, trying to suggest Beowulf has more combat experience than Touko has got to be a ******* lark. The entire reason Beowulf is even there is cause Touko makes a contract with him to show him the wider world so that he can experience more than his cave secluded in the mountains and fight stuff he's never experienced bfore.

This all happens in the 2 year span between Aoko becoming the 5th heir and Touko's return, they make note of it cause touko had long hair before she left. Beowulf doesn't have much more battle experience, hell I'd strongly argue he doesn't at all, cause he didn't ******* go anywhere. He was dumb kid chilling on his own. Everything in the narrative talks about his complete lack of experience both socially and in battle.


And finally, I didn't address the Shizuki time thing cause... it doesn't matter. Why the **** would I bother hypothesizing about a Shizuki we're likely never going to see cause it precludes the story. It's a completely indeterminable increase of power and all we know about him during the mountains is he punched bears... woo I guess?

 

[HyperZero95]

I guess this is all just Touko's thoughts, even though there's no indication as such (Internal thoughts are in brackets by the way.)

No, that isn't always the case. This was literally Touko saying this. This was also a holding back Soujuurou trying to deal damage to Beo in proportion to what he dealt to Aoko and Alice. If Beo just tried to run through him, Soujuurou would've dodged or have gotten more serious.

By the way, trying to suggest Beowulf has more combat experience than Touko has got to be a ******* lark.

Beo does have experience in battle . Just not against people who are a threat to him. Touko has virtually no CQC experience and wouldn't know compared to Beowulf. It is her word against Beo's.

The first scans are irrelevant because all that they show is the damage Shizuki received in taking down Beowulf, which no one denied. It does not change the fact that he could strike him down, at the cost of extensive damage. Furthermore, despite being in those conditions, Beo himself noted that if he got up Shizuki would have crushed him with his remaining functioning leg.

What's more, Beo also realised that Shizuki held back and dealt equivalent damage to what Beo did to the girls. Had he killed them, Shizuki wouldn't have held back and would have ended him.

Man, it's almost like Beo is a Divine Beast with unbelievable regen or something...

Yes, and consider him lucky that he had it, otherwise he would have died here. And Shizuki would have crushed his neck with his leg if he tried to get up, which would have likely severed his head from the body, something he wouldn't be able to regenerate from. Furthermore, had Beo killed Alice and Aoko, Shizuki would have outright killed him by his own admission, in spite of his regen.

Yes, Beowulf put himself off-balance and became vulnerable while swinging down his claw. And? Beowulf is not a skilled fighter. Doesn't change the fact that puts him below Soujuurou. Sure, if Lugh was more skilled he would've won. IF he was more skilled. But guess what? He wasn't. So he lost.

it doesn't matter.

Yes it does, since we are supposed to take characters at their known peaks. And we know Shizuki got weaker compared to before by adapting to modern society. It also especially matters when this weakened version of Shizuki is already capable of killing Beowulf.

It's a completely indeterminable increase of power

He is stated to be stronger than any of the Type Moon protagonists in his prime. And considering that that includes Nanaya Shiki (Who has demolished Red Arcueid tier characters while hindered), that is determinable enough to place Shizuki at his peak vastly beyond Beowulf.

 

[PandaCooler]

No, that isn't always the case. This was literally Touko saying this. This was also a holding back Soujuurou trying to deal damage to Beo in proportion to what he dealt to Aoko and Alice. If Beo just tried to run through him, Soujuurou would've dodged or have gotten more serious.


Beo does have experience in battle . Just not against people who are a threat to him. Touko has virtually no CQC experience and wouldn't know compared to Beowulf. It is her word against Beo's.

The first scans are irrelevant because all that they show is the damage Shizuki received in taking down Beowulf, which no one denied. It does not change the fact that he could strike him down, at the cost of extensive damage. Furthermore, despite being in those conditions, Beo himself noted that if he got up Shizuki would have crushed him with his remaining functioning leg.

What's more, Beo also realised that Shizuki held back and dealt equivalent damage to what Beo did to the girls. Had he killed them, Shizuki wouldn't have held back and would have ended him.

Yes, and consider him lucky that he had it, otherwise he would have died here. And Shizuki would have crushed his neck with his leg if he tried to get up, which would have likely severed his head from the body, something he wouldn't be able to regenerate from. Furthermore, had Beo killed Alice and Aoko, Shizuki would have outright killed him by his own admission, in spite of his regen.

Yes, Beowulf put himself off-balance and became vulnerable while swinging down his claw. And? Beowulf is not a skilled fighter. Doesn't change the fact that puts him below Soujuurou. Sure, if Lugh was more skilled he would've won. IF he was more skilled. But guess what? He wasn't. So he lost.



Yes it does, since we are supposed to take characters at their known peaks. And we know Shizuki got weaker compared to before by adapting to modern society. It also especially matters when this weakened version of Shizuki is already capable of killing Beowulf.



He is stated to be stronger than any of the Type Moon protagonists in his prime. And considering that that includes Nanaya Shiki (Who has demolished Red Arcueid tier characters while hindered), that is determinable enough to place Shizuki at his peak vastly beyond Beowulf.

Except that they clearly denote thoughts with Brackets and show it every time. And even if we ignore that, you go on to use Narration in context of Beo's thoughts... showing a clear bias born from nothing.

I never said Beowulf doesn't have experience in combat. I said he has less experience than Touko and that's factual. That's not even counting that Touko learned and trained with Eiri, who I'd bet money is a better martial artist than Shizuki much less Beo who has NO MARTIAL TRAINING.

Those first scans aren't irrelevant, cause Shizuki can't move after that. We demonstrably see he can't until he's revived. And why the **** would I take Beo's thoughts on the matter into consideration? The narrative during his point even stresses he doesn't really understands humans why would he possibly know what limits the human body actually has?

And I find it laughable that you somehow wanna throw out Touko (the more battle experienced fighter of the duo's) observations, but are freely throwing Beo's assertations like they're gospel. ******* Hypocrisy.

And that assessment is a crock of shit. We know how Shizuki took down Beo. It was from hitting between the contractions. Effectively disrupting the flow in Beo. There's no proof that Shizuki has the physical power to crush Beowulf's skull when he can't physically actually do body rending damage to Beowulf without sacrificing a vast majority of his body. You're putting a lot of weight into the traumatic ramblings of a spoiled kid with under 2 years of fighting experience. Why the hell would I refer to the views of a child who thinks Shizuki is a bug over the clear and constantly extremely level headed and deeply analytical Touko's assessment? A Touko, who I might add, the narration several chapters before mentioned could read Shizuki better than he could read himself


I'm sorry, but I know for a fact, that you don't hold all Nasu statements to the same weight. Cause otherwise, Shiki can't even fight servants. So it's pretty big ******* laugh to use Shiki scaling with Nasu statements. When they aggressively contradict each other just to put Shizuki so high.

 

[HyperZero95]

Except that they clearly denote thoughts with Brackets and show it every time. And even if we ignore that, you go on to use Narration in context of Beo's thoughts... showing a clear bias born from nothing.

Even if that's the case, all Touko claimed was that if Beowulf ran at him and tried to charge him down instead of attacking, he would've won. The problem is that Beowulf DIDN'T do that and most combatants would not even do that in the first place. They would strike instead like normal. Beo did just that and lost. And Soujuurou had his leg remaining that could finish him off via a stomp to his much softer neck. On top of the fact it's possible he was weakened a bit after regeneration. This was also all referring to a Shizuki that was holding back and only wished to inflict on Beo proportional damage to what he did to Aoko and Alice, not him actually trying to kill Beo at all costs.

No one though is claiming weakened Soujuurou is physically stronger than Beowulf. He clearly isn't. But he has proven his superiority and capability to win in a fight despite that. Strength isn't everything.

But if you place so much stock on Touko's opinion, then what about her stating Aoko and Alice were invincible with him there, and that she had to attack him while he was off guard because she still considered him THAT much of a threat even in those conditions?

I never said Beowulf doesn't have experience in combat. I said he has less experience than Touko and that's factual. That's not even counting that Touko learned and trained with Eiri, who I'd bet money is a better martial artist than Shizuki much less Beo who has NO MARTIAL TRAINING.

Eiri mostly trained under Mr Aozaki and concerning spiritual matters. It is unknown how much he trained with Touko specifically, or if he even did at all (Especially when they weren't even trained in the same fields). And even if they did, it does not amount to actual experience in martial arts for Touko, because she still didn't practice them by herself and focused on learning magecraft. Eiri is also primarily a swordsman rather than a martial artist. I severely doubt he is more skilled in pure CQC than Shizuki, who was trained by an organization similar to the Nanayas and that also produced assassins of the caliber of Kuzuki in Fate. With that being said, Touko still relies entirely on magecraft, puppets and other means of indirect fighting. She is still not a physical fighter. Her deficiency in that area was already outright stated.

Those first scans aren't irrelevant, cause Shizuki can't move after that.

Yes, AFTER taking down Beowulf. So yes, those scans are irrelevant in the context of the discussion, as Shizuki being seriously damaged after taking down Beo does not invalidate the fact that he took him down to begin with.

We demonstrably see he can't until he's revived.

Is that why he casually walked walked over to Aoko and raised his hand to help her up?

And why the **** would I take Beo's thoughts on the matter into consideration? The narrative during his point even stresses he doesn't really understands humans why would he possibly know what limits the human body actually has?

Then you can take into account the narration.

This is the narrative, not Beowulf. How do we know? It's talking in third person. It literally calls Beo "the werewolf"

"The opponent could have surely killed him using his legs." Not "kill ME using his legs.", "Kill HIM."

Add the narration stating that Shizuki's body had reached the limits of rationality and that we literally see him casually moving over to Aoko and helping her up, and it's not a stretch by any imagination to suggest he could have used his one still fine leg to crush Beo's neck. Especially when Soujuurou was actually looking down on him ready to kill him if he retaliated.

And I find it laughable that you somehow wanna throw out Touko (the more battle experienced fighter of the duo's) observations, but are freely throwing Beo's assertations like they're gospel. ******* Hypocrisy.

Touko has no known physical combat experience. Magecraft battles =/= physical combat. It was already stated that Touko was a layman on the field.

It's not "******* hypocrisy". When you are presented with two conflicting character's assesments of a situation, you have to determine which one is more reliable, and it'd definitely go to Beowulf here since he actually is a physical fighter that directly took part in the fight. Whereas Touko is an inexperienced physical combatant with little to no combat experience trying to piece together a fight between an extremely powerful entity that still fights physically, and one of the most skilled people in the verse.

And that assessment is a crock of shit. We know how Shizuki took down Beo. It was from hitting between the contractions. Effectively disrupting the flow in Beo. There's no proof that Shizuki has the physical power to crush Beowulf's skull when he can't physically actually do body rending damage to Beowulf without sacrificing a vast majority of his body. You're putting a lot of weight into the traumatic ramblings of a spoiled kid with under 2 years of fighting experience. Why the hell would I refer to the views of a child who thinks Shizuki is a bug over the clear and constantly extremely level headed and deeply analytical Touko's assessment? A Touko, who I might add, the narration several chapters before mentioned could read Shizuki better than he could read himself

The assessment isn't a crock of shit since we saw Soujuurou looking down on him ready to do this. Beo's head could be more vulnerable. He could be weaker after his heart was ruptured, even after regeneration. Or Soujuurou would've done another internal strike. Also, striking his neck would be a much softer target than striking his chest. Stomping said neck would potentially cut off his brain from the rest of his body and permanently kill him. There are several explanations.

Also, it saying she can read him better than he can read himself is referring to him as a person. Talk about dishonestly taking things out of context. Why do you think she was so surprised when Beowulf got flat out dropped?

I'm sorry, but I know for a fact, that you don't hold all Nasu statements to the same weight. Cause otherwise, Shiki can't even fight servants. So it's pretty big ******* laugh to use Shiki scaling with Nasu statements. When they aggressively contradict each other just to put Shizuki so high.

I view Nasu statements and in-universe statements in the same light: They are valid, unless directly contradicted.

Nasu statements aren't automatically 100% wrong or 100% right. If his statements are not contradicted or even supported by the series, then there is no reason to dismiss them. If they are contradicted however, then obviously what was actually written, aka the source material itself > what Nasu says off-hand in an interview statement.

Case in point, Tohno Shiki has fought evenly with Roa/SHIKI, held his own against Ciel while injured, speedblitzed Dead Apostle Sion, defeated Red Arcueid by himself and, at his absolute peak, he has moved faster than Akiha at her peak power could visually track, who is stated by sources to potentially exceed Red Arcueid. Nanaya Shiki is even more powerful than Tohno, and has feats such as instantly killing Yumizuka (And each Dead Apostle is already comparable to Kotomine Kirei in his utmost prime by the Fate/Zero LN), defeating Nrvnqsr Chaos while being mortally wounded, fighting on equal grounds with Kishima Kouma while being injured and lacking MEODP, decapitating Full Power Akiha while rapidly losing his lifeforce and toying with Arcueid while having the hands in his pockets so hard that she had to summon Archetype Earth. The notion of him standing no chance at all against Servants is as ridiculous as it gets, especially when the same statement also places him below Ciel and co, despite him directly showcasing extreme superiority over them.

On the other hand, nothing contradicts Soujuurou being physically the strongest protag in his prime. We never saw his prime. We just know it was stronger than the version of him that fought Beo. And if anything, it's supported by his weakened state already effortlessly intercepting and blocking a physical attack from Prime Aoko (Who is above 30% Arcueid) giving a death blow to Touko and grabbing her arm to where she couldn't even begin to break out of his grip.