Could've swore you said this at another point in time, but alright then.
It's just a misunderstanding if anything. Let's move on.
It seems after looking back on Red Demon God that it's possible he learned more. It said he learned the basics, but then the story progressed on further, so it's possible to likely that he learned more before the genocide of the clan. I'll check up on that again though soon.
Mmh. I'd need to see that. Besides, Kiri's intention was to just make Shiki capable of defending himself in case something happened. Even if the story progressed further, we would have to assume he changed his mind and planned to make a complete training for Shiki, even though he planned to retire completely and live a quiet life. And before you say it, the Ryougis don't hunt demons anymore yes, but they are still combat enthusiasts and Shiki was properly trained in combat and frequently sparred with her father or practiced by herself.
She has the techniques, but they likely aren't at the same level is my point.
We know that her 17 dissections is "almost" the same as that of the other Shiki. They might not be 100% identical, but they still come very close. It also shows that it doesn't really matter if Nanaya went a bit beyond the basics in his training, since Ryougi has his same techniques with similar performance regardless.
While her rendition of Seven Nights is impressive, she clearly can't preform the real thing.
The technique itself is virtually identical (Throwing a knife and attacking at nearly the same time). It's the weird flip at the end that she was mainly lacking. Which stems from her body being unable to move in that way rather than a lack of skill.
Likewise, she cannot preform Nanaya's unorthodox movements. This further shows she is not as skilled as him in the arts.
Again, that speaks more for agility rather than skill. Obviously skill would play a factor in utilizing them, but considering that Nanaya can still naturally move his body that way, there has to be a limit to how much we can equate that to actual skill. Otherwise we would have to claim that Lio is more skilled than Ryougi because he could effectively use those movements in combat, or that True Assassin is more skilled than Archer because he can move like a spider. Bazett is also capable of adapting to Kuzuki's fighting style rather quickly, despite his unpredictable movements akin to a snake. The Nanaya Arts' effects are stats increases by drawing upon the absolute limit of the user's body, which would not require those movements, especially when 17 dissections is treated as a big deal, despite it being just 17 consecutive slashes.
Even if there was Nanaya Art techniques she could use with a sword, they would likely be extremely limited in use.
See the above paragraph for this, since it's essentially the same answer. We can't really say that they would be extremely limited in use, when attacking and moving really fast (Which can be easily performed with a sword) is their main actual effect, with one of its greatest variations being just 17 consecutive slashes. The only technique I can agree she is unable to use with her sword is Seven Nights for obvious reasons. Beside, I think we are mixing things up a bit here. My main point is that if Ryougi without hypnosis is skilled enough to learn and replicate Nanaya's techniques with similar efficiency, her with hypnosis would be substantially more skilled than that, and thus likely above Nanaya, even if she can't actually perform them anymore with a sword. Since her skill level that allowed her to learn the Arts to a comparable performance would still transfer over and be amped. Her being able to actually use them instead was more in reference to her being capable of using them to surpass Nanaya. Since her main speed is already on his level. Even if they are limited in use, they would still be noticeably above her innate speed. But I'm fine with going with her being unable to use them with a sword. Though I also find it rather silly that her peak self wouldn't have the same effectiveness as a weaker incarnation of her technique-wise.
But the arts are also their martial art/fighting style.
That's why I am willing to place Nanaya a bit ahead of knife Ryougi in skill. However, you are looking at it from an overall perspective: A fully trained Nanaya would be more skilled than a fully trained Ryougi indeed. But we cannot necessarily claim that Nanaya Shiki, who was not fully trained, would automatically be above them in skill as well.
It's possible she can get the stat limit increase effect, but that's about it.
That would already be sufficient to noticeably eclipse Nanaya in speed though.
Where was this? Even if this was the case though, that technique is fairly basic in the sense that it doesn't require any of the unorthodox movements most of the other techniques employ.
Her changing weapon is listed as a special attack. It makes her switch from knife to sword or from sword to knife. There is no mention that switching to a sword would give her an entirely different moveset, hence she should have the same moves including 17 dissections with it. Again, how is 17 dissections basic, when the only known better technique is Seven Nights? It is clearly held in high regard. Flashing Scabbard would be the most basic technique of that type.
For the most part, yes. But we've seen Kiri able to pull off directly taking out Saiki with his unorthodox moves and tactics immediately, while it was said that this would be impossible for the other clans (minus the outlier that is Shiki). But yes, I agree that assassination does play a factor.
The narrator made it clear that Kiri only came out alive of those missions because it was an assassination, and that attacking Saiki directly would have been suicidal, so it is clearly something that applies to the Nanayas, especially given how Kiri is described as "one in the million" among them. Thankfully enough, there was a table for him to move in and catch him off guard.
Hm, did it say she had never used her family's main style at that point? Well, your theory is possible. Though she'd logically have to witness an actual Nanaya clan member to copy their mastered techniques if this is the case. And nothing really implies she ever met one before Tohno in AA. And it wouldn't really make sense for her to be able to copy it just from hearing about the techniques. I mean I guess it's possible, but it's a huge stretch.
Yes, she said that she uses the principle of tensing her whole body and mind as a premise for any type of training. That principle is the basis of all martial arts, but the Ryougis specifically took it even further and outside natural paths with a self created style (Self Hypnosis). She then added that there has never been an occasion where she used her family's school so far though, and that her hand to hand moves that she showed earlier were "copying something she had seen" (And this would presumably apply to her style with a knife as well). And yeah, it's rather unlikely that she witnessed a Nanaya member using them. And her learning them just by hearing about them is a massive assumption and would require an insane amount of potential on her part that hasn't even been hinted at. However it's also possible that she saw them/their mechanics were explained to her from/by the Ryougis, but she was able to use them better than them, close to Nanaya Shiki himself. It's all speculation at the end of the day, which I already made clear when I proposed this. Just an alternate line of thought.
Ryougi with a knife? The fact that the main style of her clan is not used with it. She would just be relying on some Nanaya Arts and other side martial arts to wield it. And her Nanaya Arts really shouldn't be anywhere near Tohno's, who still is extremely skilled with the arts. Though maybe "vastly" was a bit too much of a claim. But there shouldn't be any reason that she could equal Tohno in a knife fight with arts he was primarily trained in with a weapon he was meant to use, versus her whose main art being taught to her was the Ryougi's style, with her best weapon being a katana. Combine this with the fact their natural potential in learning and improving is vastly different and there is no reason she should be equal to Tohno with a knife in raw skill, even if he's not equal to Nanaya at this point.
At the cost of sounding like a broken record at this point, I would agree with this if Nanaya received complete training. But he didn't. And even if you say Ryougi received only minimal training in the Arts as well (Which is very likely) she would still know about as much as he does, which is what it is basically stated in her profile, with her having "Nanaya Shiki's Nanaya techniques" and her 17 dissections being "almost the same". Tohno is below Nanaya and mostly relies on istinct. Therefore I really don't think he can stand up to any version of Ryougi skill-wise. Just because he was primarily trained with a knife does not mean he surpasses Ryougi, because you are comparing the Nanayas and the Ryougis overall. Nanaya Shiki himself wasn't fully trained, and I have no reason to assume that the Nanaya training eclipses that of the Ryougis so much that they cannot even remotely match even an incomplete portion of that training.
Well it should be noted that she didn't blitz him wth the space freezing spell. That's what stopped him from actually getting blitzed and dying to her. But yes to the wounded part.
She did:
The magus, Araya Souren - possessing the physical prowess to dodge even a speeding bullet after it was fired - leapt back after he had been completely cut, while not realizing he had been.
All that the barrier did was prevent him from dying:
That attack just now indeed would have brought him a fatal wound. Had Shiki's second slash killed not two, but three of his barriers, Araya's body would have been cleaved in two from the torso.
The barrier slowed down her slash enough to make her only cut his arm rather than his whole body. But It still couldn't make her slash slow enough for Araya to react to.
It should also be noted that Tohno alone in the Akiha Route while injured in combination with his death sensing was able to defend himself against Ciel, who had the speed to blitz him if not for his skill and death sensing. Ciel also had the more unorthodox movements on top of that. So Nanaya even if slower should be able to hold off Ryougi with her far more orthodox movements until the stat and skill spikes start coming around.
Fair enough here.
Ryougi has never shown to be able to preform his unorthodox movements, which would've helped her several times in battles,
So Lio is more skilled than Ryougi and equal to Nanaya? Once again, there is clearly a limit to how much this applies to technical skill. Kuzuki would lose to Bazett in a direct fight despite him being able to move in that manner unlike her. Those movements would be useful to throw Ryougi off guard. But between her precog and overall skill, she should eventually adapt to them.
nor the ability to occupy multiple spaces with certain techniques.
You do realise that "she never did that" is a commonly used argument by the Void downplayers, right? I could equally say that Nanaya never did the level of knife throwing she displayed against Araya, or that Kiri never did anything remarkable at all even against Kishima, even though he is supposedly more skilled than either of the Shikis. Or that Shiki himself never used 17 dissections or anything of the sorts in many fights. But I'm not because we know that they are able to make all of that. Likewise, we know that Ryougi has Nanaya Shiki's techniques and that she can perform his 2 best moves (17 dissections and Seven Nighs) to a very similar level. That's enough evidence in my eyes to safely assume she can perform the space technique, who has never been treated as being above those two. The only two opponents in the entire series where Ryougi had to actually try against were Asagami and Araya. The fomer could kill her with only a glare, and likely didn't give her the time to use any of them, on top of Ryougi still overall enjoying the fight and having still various opportunities to beat her until she eventually became able to see her powers with clarity and overwhelm her easily. While Araya could outright statue her, with her going for the best technique (Seven Nights) to compete with him.
Just that Nanaya has more options than needing to strike her lines and points
So does Ryougi though.
Should be noted that even White Len Tatari Nanaya had the physical strength to destroy Nrvnqsr physically, which Ryougi wasn't capable of doing at all against Araya. I don't think the gap in MB would close this strength disadvantage when factoring in she'd be facing the superior real Nanaya.
Nanaya was at full strength there though, and it was White Len Tatari Nrvnqsr. This means that it can be translated to their true selves, and that Nanaya at his peak can physically destroy Nrvnqsr, which I never contested. This also fits with Nanaya harming Kishima while injured. However, Araya was only able to barely harm a half dying Ryougi in KnK, which is a far cry from the one Nanaya is facing here. The Nrvnqsr section was instead meant to find out if
he would being able to tank her strikes instead. Ryougi can harm Araya while being injured and in KnK already, whereas Nanaya wouldn't have a survived an attack from a slightly weakened 999th Beast while being more injured than Ryougi by a noticeable amount, but not massive still. A direct strike from a fully healthy Ryougi might prove devastating, nevermind her in MB.
It should be noted that all Nanaya fights end pretty much instantly. He is never facing opposition that can press him in a fight beyond broken insta-kill on sight hax like Origami or the traps SHIKI set up while retreating. And even then, those fights end pretty much instantly with his victory. Much different from a fight against Ryougi here.
Alright.
The speed advantage was factoring in her peak speed advantage against Araya. She is not blitzing Nanaya. And if she could, it would be a lower-end one like against Ciel where even Tohno could defend himself for a bit while injured.
I meant with her knife. Araya blitzed Ryougi, but after using them she could easily react to him. Therefore, if Ryougi is normally as fast as Nanaya, she would be probably too fast for him if she uses them. But again, we could set with her being unable to use them with a sword. She would still be able to replicate them to a higher extent with her own sword techniques though, since I refuse to believe that Ryougi with a knife can perform better than herself with a sword in technique, but perhaps she cannot replicate the pure stats increasing effect in that state.
And again, Nanaya should have the strength advantage to where a clash of blades would push her back and if she's not careful, potentially disarm her.
He would need to be massively, massively stronger than Araya to pull this off.
The death sense argument was more in regards to helping him last longer, not that it is equal or superior to her precog. And yes, stealth is out of the question against either of them.
Alright.
Arcueid was completely off-guard and has nothing like precog to tell that he's coming.
Did Louvre had precog? Fair on the off guard part. But I have a hard time believing that some random Dead Apostles would have better sensing than Arcueid.
Louvre and his children already were told that "DEATH would appear before thee." They were expecting enemies in general and Shiki himself on top of that via the fortune telling, yet they all died still.
Yes, but they still did not knew when he actually would appear, not to mention that they were busy fighting Lorelei as well. I'd still see that as similar to 30% Arcueid, where she expected to see someone when she opened the door.
I'll go as far as to say it isn't a stomp, since that would be stretching it. But yeah, we agree he wins regardless.
Actually, if what you said about Nanaya only training for 1-2 years is true, he might indeed stomp even. Since that's an insane growth potential.
All in all, I think that we hold the outcome of these fights in the same manner: Ryougi wins normally, unless we go with the Nanaya growing stronger overtime theory. And Eclipse Nanaya is well above any version of Ryougi. It seems our only real issue is the skill aspect.
