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Triforce (and Goddesses) downgrade
- Thread starter Theglassman12
- Start date
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- #82
@DaReaperMan I'm repeating my points because no one has bothered going through addressing all of my points, especially in the part of the stabilization page where it said the user or object's overall power wouldn't even scale to the full dimension it's sustaining in the first place.
@Chariot190 I'll just say this, given the fact the UES page is a thing, it would be recommended for Zelda to have some form of UES blog given now that's a thing which helps validate some stuff like reality warping or other feats to scale to the stats.
@Armorchompy Apology accepted, just please don't type in all caps next time because you're going to send mixed messages to the wrong person, and I'd rather not see that shitshow get out of hand.
@Chariot190 I'll just say this, given the fact the UES page is a thing, it would be recommended for Zelda to have some form of UES blog given now that's a thing which helps validate some stuff like reality warping or other feats to scale to the stats.
@Armorchompy Apology accepted, just please don't type in all caps next time because you're going to send mixed messages to the wrong person, and I'd rather not see that shitshow get out of hand.
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I ain't dealing with a UES thread right now, not even because I don't think it's possible, in fact off the top of my head how Link's magic is conveyed, all his spells and attacks that use magic directly drawing from the same magic pool of energy with stronger magic attacks taking more and extremely weak magic taking like nothing being a good enough starting point, including non-offensive attacks like forcefields and more as well drawing from it, but I'm busy enough as it is, and given this really, really doesn't matter in this case regardless of what Glass says (given it specifies on Ganon's end how that shit works, he'd be amped regardless to whatever the highest feat the thing has), I can't say I quite care to be bothered with that atm.
I might in the future tho, could help maybe get us some supporting feats like Volvagia or other such boss feats to use to flesh the ratings out.
False. I'm saying a Tier 1 Artifact, or 2-B, 2-A, Low 2-C, etc, etc, etc could take the place of the Triforce, and this whole sequence could still play out the same without discredit to the object's tiering, because again, absence of feat =/= anti-feat.
Honestly, if you consider these two things the same I'm not surprised you think two similar at face value but intrinsically and mechanically different things are the same too, as evidenced by your arguments.
You're right, it could be any other tier, and the end result would still be the same though, lack of a feat doesn't dictate the invalidation of other feats.
And while that might be what you're arguing, but you're arguing it in the absolute most ass-backward ridiculous way that literally nobody here agrees with because it's actually crazy talk.
If you want to scrutinize the 3-A, you could, well, scrutinize things that matter. Like Dark World, or, while I vehemently disagree and wouldn't really be hard to establish a foundation, magic stuff. At least that having reservations about that I could see even if I don't agree, arguing about [------] ain't it chief.
Of course, an Artifact can sustain a realm it didn't create, that's obvious. But if it didn't create the realm and the realm's intrinsic existence isn't directly tied to the said thing, the thing going away doesn't mean the realm would to unless explicitly explained to be the case. At that point, the artifact is basically tantamount to a battery in a Gameboy, the Gameboy be sucking that juice out, but the Gameboy doesn't just cease to be if you take the battery out and smash it.
If anything, in such a situation you'd think the fact the realm had excess energy even after it vanished to last it ages would support 3-A, not discredit it.
I'm just saying what I see, your thinking has been twisted by arbitrary standards on the internet instead of using common sense to dictate what is and isn't the case, sorry, but not really tbh. I mean, you're kinda proving my point by taking loosely defined words on the stabilization page, twisting them to mean, lack of means invalidation of all, and because it says that, it must be the case (Ignoring it doesn't actually say what you're insinuating, but case and point).
Nah mate, not you're assuming, if you want to take this feat at face value, we have to use what we see no? Which would be the Kingdom of XXX, even after all the time, still stood, despite being at the literal epicenter of that world. Are we going to assume some stars died out off-screen but the land of the kingdom is still mostly intact bar a few fissures? lmao.
But if planets and stars elsewhere are dying too, why are you even limiting the object to Tier 6 even by your own logic? It wouldn't be limited, for all we know there are trillions of planets in the same state, with dying-out stars, nebulae, and more, in that case, we'd be looking at easy tier 4 if all the planets and stars are in the same state as REDACTED, but how big is that universe? Is it infinite? If it's infinite in scope, then no matter how much you divide the feat by the timeframe, it'd actually be a High 3-A feat even if it took a million years for things to die out. Quite simply, we do not know, it would require a bunch of guessing and so if we're just going by what the game shows, well...
Also hol up, agree with you? Do you actually still think that? Lmao. Also nicestrawman, "every dimension", of course not every dimension means universe, I can think of a few in Zelda that are explicitly not, but in terms of things like Termina, the world of Hyrule and //////////, yeah those be universes.
Saying time and time again "physical" when, of course, the funny spinning triangles don't get shit for physicals because they don't even use physicals, is something entirely on you and your poor choice of words.
Also thanks for proving my point, you see that little word you just used "prosper"?
Yeah case and point, the Triforce was nothing but a glorified battery for them that let them flourish, just like a power plant for a city. As stated numerous times at this point, just because a power plant vanishes doesn't mean the city not vanishing with it, discredits the energy it can output.
If we weren't told Ganon basically ate that shit's magical potential to boost his own magical power, you'd be right, but he do so
I might attempt and compile a UES for different matters tho when I have time, just so we have stuff like Volvagia's death feat and a few other feats as potential support just to flesh out the ratings.
In your own words in the OP - "Well given Hyrule Encylcopedia also made an entire flowchart about the different worlds that exist in the zelda universe with a legends key to show which one's are considered worlds and kingdoms. Lorule's not even registered as a world by Nintendo, just a kingdom. "
Here, you began the thread arguing THAT isn't even a world, but a kingdom, of course, you backpedaled, but even with the backpedaling we'd still need to take it at face value otherwise we just pulling shit out of our asses, and guessing, and if we guessing your OP would still be wrong because at that point the realm's decay could be anything between tier 8 to even 3.
But even if we treat it as a universe, as we rightfully should and we somehow had to convince you was the case, it'd still only be the same due to lack of extra elaboration indicating what's happening to the cosmos. I don't quite like to assume things without at least some implication, but then if we assume it's decaying the cosmos as well, then what is it? Tier 4? 5? 3-C? 3-B? Hell it could even be 3-A still depending on the scope of the cosmos. If we assume just the observable universe, the decay of most matter divided by such a timeframe is still like 3-B so that's an issue don't you think? I could go on, there's so many issues with actually trying to use this heap of nothing to discredit anything and the fact you fail to even think about the possibilities and implications before making this thread is a shameful display ngl. Especially when at first you were arguing for a legit 8-A feat as the Triforce's anti-feat lmao.
Of course I said as much above, but repeated questioning deserves repeated responses
Also don't care.
It's talking about that in regard to the type of feat the page is covering, basically "if a dude fails to sustain something or it doesn't vanish right away, the realm's existence won't inherently scale to physicals and full output 1:1 lmao". Surely you know that much right? I could write a list of all the fallacious assumptions you're doing with just this line of text alone
Also, you're right, it didn't make the realm from scratch, if it did, it'd be a Low 2-C feat, it just ****** with the matter that composes it hence why it's 3-A instead.
Plus, DDM did bring up a point, I never really considered before, but in OOT the sacred realm was conveyed as an empty blank void, yet the next thing we know, it was corrupted and became a whole world of darkness filled with a bunch of wacky shit that wasn't there before, something that happened in Ganon's time of concealment. A legit argument can be made for that and thus could be used to strengthen the feat as a whole.
Anyway don't care, twisting our standards to try and make a lack of a 3-A stabilization feat into a discredit of all feats above is laughable at best, I'd understand if the feat was portrayed as something meant to actually limit the scope of the thing's power but it's not meant to be taken like that at all and the game doesn't even begin to implicate such a thing. Not to mention how in everything you've argued you only consider the parts that would suit your argument while leaving out any bits that don't, and not even due to consistency, but just because.
From this point on I refuse to acknowledge any semblance of [VOID], nobody agrees with it, and your arguments for it are borderline headcanon. Tackle something of merit, or don't at all.
I might in the future tho, could help maybe get us some supporting feats like Volvagia or other such boss feats to use to flesh the ratings out.
I'm aware given that's what you've been doing for the most part.
False. I'm saying a Tier 1 Artifact, or 2-B, 2-A, Low 2-C, etc, etc, etc could take the place of the Triforce, and this whole sequence could still play out the same without discredit to the object's tiering, because again, absence of feat =/= anti-feat.
Honestly, if you consider these two things the same I'm not surprised you think two similar at face value but intrinsically and mechanically different things are the same too, as evidenced by your arguments.
You're right, it could be any other tier, and the end result would still be the same though, lack of a feat doesn't dictate the invalidation of other feats.
And while that might be what you're arguing, but you're arguing it in the absolute most ass-backward ridiculous way that literally nobody here agrees with because it's actually crazy talk.
If you want to scrutinize the 3-A, you could, well, scrutinize things that matter. Like Dark World, or, while I vehemently disagree and wouldn't really be hard to establish a foundation, magic stuff. At least that having reservations about that I could see even if I don't agree, arguing about [------] ain't it chief.
Nah, literally not what I said, unless you only read half the paragraph anyway...
Of course, an Artifact can sustain a realm it didn't create, that's obvious. But if it didn't create the realm and the realm's intrinsic existence isn't directly tied to the said thing, the thing going away doesn't mean the realm would to unless explicitly explained to be the case. At that point, the artifact is basically tantamount to a battery in a Gameboy, the Gameboy be sucking that juice out, but the Gameboy doesn't just cease to be if you take the battery out and smash it.
If anything, in such a situation you'd think the fact the realm had excess energy even after it vanished to last it ages would support 3-A, not discredit it.
And I'm telling you that's a blatant false equivalence that ignores context, on both ends tbh.
I'm just saying what I see, your thinking has been twisted by arbitrary standards on the internet instead of using common sense to dictate what is and isn't the case, sorry, but not really tbh. I mean, you're kinda proving my point by taking loosely defined words on the stabilization page, twisting them to mean, lack of means invalidation of all, and because it says that, it must be the case (Ignoring it doesn't actually say what you're insinuating, but case and point).
Nah mate, not you're assuming, if you want to take this feat at face value, we have to use what we see no? Which would be the Kingdom of XXX, even after all the time, still stood, despite being at the literal epicenter of that world. Are we going to assume some stars died out off-screen but the land of the kingdom is still mostly intact bar a few fissures? lmao.
But if planets and stars elsewhere are dying too, why are you even limiting the object to Tier 6 even by your own logic? It wouldn't be limited, for all we know there are trillions of planets in the same state, with dying-out stars, nebulae, and more, in that case, we'd be looking at easy tier 4 if all the planets and stars are in the same state as REDACTED, but how big is that universe? Is it infinite? If it's infinite in scope, then no matter how much you divide the feat by the timeframe, it'd actually be a High 3-A feat even if it took a million years for things to die out. Quite simply, we do not know, it would require a bunch of guessing and so if we're just going by what the game shows, well...
Also hol up, agree with you? Do you actually still think that? Lmao. Also nicestrawman, "every dimension", of course not every dimension means universe, I can think of a few in Zelda that are explicitly not, but in terms of things like Termina, the world of Hyrule and //////////, yeah those be universes.
That's on you mate, everyone knows AP can be literally whatever the **** it wants, including reality warping btw.
Saying time and time again "physical" when, of course, the funny spinning triangles don't get shit for physicals because they don't even use physicals, is something entirely on you and your poor choice of words.
Uh, no, it's still an absence of a feat. The 3-A didn't happen, ergo, it's not there, But you're taking it and twisting it into "oh because the realm DIDN'T vanish, it must be a anti-feat as well", which is the issue that literally nobody agrees with you on.
Also thanks for proving my point, you see that little word you just used "prosper"?
Yeah case and point, the Triforce was nothing but a glorified battery for them that let them flourish, just like a power plant for a city. As stated numerous times at this point, just because a power plant vanishes doesn't mean the city not vanishing with it, discredits the energy it can output.
Lol no I don't? There's an explicit statement saying that Ganon augmented and consolidated the full of the Triforce's magical might within, something we know bolsters Ganon's strength and own magical power. If the Triforce has 3-A magical anything, that shit is scaling to Ganon, no way around it unless you decide to just twist shit or ignore the meaning behind said words.
If we weren't told Ganon basically ate that shit's magical potential to boost his own magical power, you'd be right, but he do so
I might attempt and compile a UES for different matters tho when I have time, just so we have stuff like Volvagia's death feat and a few other feats as potential support just to flesh out the ratings.
See above matey, you came into this thread arguing IT wasn't a universe but just a kingdom (lmao), your original proposition would entail the whole of the feat is barely Tier 7 because you argued it took, in your own words, centuries, for a kingdom to even get to a state of decay (Which then, go back to my point about how you didn't even think this through).
In your own words in the OP - "Well given Hyrule Encylcopedia also made an entire flowchart about the different worlds that exist in the zelda universe with a legends key to show which one's are considered worlds and kingdoms. Lorule's not even registered as a world by Nintendo, just a kingdom. "
Here, you began the thread arguing THAT isn't even a world, but a kingdom, of course, you backpedaled, but even with the backpedaling we'd still need to take it at face value otherwise we just pulling shit out of our asses, and guessing, and if we guessing your OP would still be wrong because at that point the realm's decay could be anything between tier 8 to even 3.
But even if we treat it as a universe, as we rightfully should and we somehow had to convince you was the case, it'd still only be the same due to lack of extra elaboration indicating what's happening to the cosmos. I don't quite like to assume things without at least some implication, but then if we assume it's decaying the cosmos as well, then what is it? Tier 4? 5? 3-C? 3-B? Hell it could even be 3-A still depending on the scope of the cosmos. If we assume just the observable universe, the decay of most matter divided by such a timeframe is still like 3-B so that's an issue don't you think? I could go on, there's so many issues with actually trying to use this heap of nothing to discredit anything and the fact you fail to even think about the possibilities and implications before making this thread is a shameful display ngl. Especially when at first you were arguing for a legit 8-A feat as the Triforce's anti-feat lmao.
Of course I said as much above, but repeated questioning deserves repeated responses
My dude, I think the issue here is you yourself didn't even properly think through what your proposition actually suggests. I, of course, read it (unfortunately), but unlike you, I actually thought on it and went "oh hmm this entails a bunch of fucky stuff OP failed to mention or convey".
Also don't care.
Uh, basic human reading comprehension? It's the page FOR sustainability feats?
It's talking about that in regard to the type of feat the page is covering, basically "if a dude fails to sustain something or it doesn't vanish right away, the realm's existence won't inherently scale to physicals and full output 1:1 lmao". Surely you know that much right? I could write a list of all the fallacious assumptions you're doing with just this line of text alone
And nobody gives a shit because Ganon funny go brrr, it scales to him even if reality warping as it's done via the Triforce's magic (as everything by it is done), which he took, consolidated within himself, and augmented his own magical might off it
Also, you're right, it didn't make the realm from scratch, if it did, it'd be a Low 2-C feat, it just ****** with the matter that composes it hence why it's 3-A instead.
Plus, DDM did bring up a point, I never really considered before, but in OOT the sacred realm was conveyed as an empty blank void, yet the next thing we know, it was corrupted and became a whole world of darkness filled with a bunch of wacky shit that wasn't there before, something that happened in Ganon's time of concealment. A legit argument can be made for that and thus could be used to strengthen the feat as a whole.
Anyway don't care, twisting our standards to try and make a lack of a 3-A stabilization feat into a discredit of all feats above is laughable at best, I'd understand if the feat was portrayed as something meant to actually limit the scope of the thing's power but it's not meant to be taken like that at all and the game doesn't even begin to implicate such a thing. Not to mention how in everything you've argued you only consider the parts that would suit your argument while leaving out any bits that don't, and not even due to consistency, but just because.
From this point on I refuse to acknowledge any semblance of [VOID], nobody agrees with it, and your arguments for it are borderline headcanon. Tackle something of merit, or don't at all.
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Glass, my dude, your ass has been getting destroyed this entire thread, just because you may not like it, you're losing.
You have ONE vote in your favor that was made before any counter-arguments were made, which makes it a flimsy vote at best. There are THREE staff disagreeing with you, and six normal members doing the same, two of which I know for a fact are knowledgeable on Zelda as a franchise.
You say "stabilization page", I say "That argument has been put into the blender", like, I read the thread, OP and all, I didn't like the OP, but I couldn't put my finger on it, then I read the rest of the thread, and realized the arguments presented there were not good, and that was only solidified as I read the the thread.
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@chariot, understandable, but looking at the article(s) there is Light Force, Life Force, Force Gems, and Energy. It's all merely called "Force" in Japan. Light Force is mentioned in Minish Cap that a living beings have Light Force with the Women of the Hylian Royal family possessing immense levels of it. It was also mentioned in Skyward Sword to come from Hylia as well as the Master Sword possessing immense levels of it. Phantom Hourglass has Life Force which is essentially the same description as Light Force, so there is consistency. Spirit Tracks just calls it energy, but it also elaborates the concept for Force Gems; artifacts created using immense levels of Energy. Which in the Four Swords game are said to be immense levels of Light Force designed to restore the Four Sword to its prime stage like end game Minsih Cap had. So that's another consistency; Energy meter also replaced magic meter in both Link Between Worlds and Triforce Heroes, in which he uses it for his various items and wall merging, so it's got properties of magic and the ability to empower physical attacks and it's basically intended to be the same concept as energy from Spirit Tracks or better yet "Force" from all those other games. And it's painfully obvious Master Sword is stronger both physically and magically due to its immense Light Force level. And Triforce is literally is a source of power that far outweighs even Hylia, so it could be interpreted as the greatest source of "The Force" in the Zelda multiverse save Golden Goddesses obviously. I know you don't have to work on it yet, but I hope this gets the premise started; Triforce basically being Light Force/Force Gems but far greater than all of them is the only part not specified but it's still possesses similar rules combined with clearly being far more powerful than all of those.
@DaReaperMan I'm not going to say I disagree, but you really need to settle down. Telling people, "They are getting **** pounded in the ass" is not an appropriate thing to bring up in a PG-13 website in a discussion about tiers of fictional characters.
@DaReaperMan I'm not going to say I disagree, but you really need to settle down. Telling people, "They are getting **** pounded in the ass" is not an appropriate thing to bring up in a PG-13 website in a discussion about tiers of fictional characters.
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Alright alright, I'll use different terminology
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@Chariot190 If a UES can happen in the future for Zelda in any way shape or form, I'll take the bullet in this thread. Either that or I just try another way to get crucified in public try and tackle the dark world feat again if I end up finding some info to contradict the ratings but yeah, so long as there's some UES that can happen in the future for Zelda I'm fine with that.
@DaReaperMan you mean different wording? You can say the same thing in a way that doesn't sound aggressive.
@DaReaperMan you mean different wording? You can say the same thing in a way that doesn't sound aggressive.
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Mate, I basically said I'd make it in the realm of PG-13, not that I'd remove all aggression from it, there's a really big difference between the two, but if you want it served to you in less aggressive terms than here you go: You are losing this thread and overall debate quite badly, and there are practically no people in your ball park here.
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You can still come off as a childish asshole with PG-13 language, I would recommend steering clear from that too.
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There is absolutely no reason for being toxic in the first place, even if OP is losing the debate.
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