Transmutation vs Regen/ Killing an Character

[Agnaa]

Well that just lets them get out of anything that incapacitates/weakens their body, then.

Matter Manipulation, some Mind Manipulation, most Status Effect Inducement and Energy Manipulation, all Biological Manipulation, Transmutation, Vibration Manipulation, Petrification, Sealing, Fusionism, Poison Manipulation, Disease Manipulation, and arguably Sleep Manipulation

(I realize that some of these may be obvious, but a lot of them are more arguable and I didn't want to miss anything worth discussing)

 

[Wokistan]

Sealing's more akin to BFR than damage, and I am not just using damage to mean anything the user doesn't like. Compare petrification to sonetsome like FOP (real disease, I can link in a bit) where the body calcifies over time. Something like that should be covered with good enough heals, right?

 

[Agnaa]

Well then let's find a good place to draw the line. Lay out the reasons why some things can be regenerated from and others can't. I don't want to suggest any myself to put words in your mouth.

Possibly but I don't think something like that should be assumed, especially when we're talking about fiction as a whole, some characters can regen from diseases and some can't, imo if it hasn't been demonstrated it shouldn't be included.

 

[Lightbuster30]

Lord that's ridiculous for just one ability. Not every character in fiction with regen can just regen out of that junk, and when they do get hit by those abilities, they more often than not don't.

 

[Wokistan]

I gotta sleep, so this'll be kinda brief

Mind and sleep, idk rn

Matter stuff, high and godly should Regen from.

Status inducement is very broad and vague.

Energy manip's just AP, so yeah.

Biological manip I unfortunately only know of very extreme examoles of the ability. Kinda vague.

Vibrations seem to me like that sounds like AP

Poison and disease it depends on the specifics since some like Typhus the Traveller get ridiculous, but in general probably. Something like the poison of an Eversor assassin that melts flesh can be healed from with good enough Regen, but sometbsom like Liliana's poison that makes all healing instead do an equivalent amount of damage you obviously don't want to try to heal while under it's effects.

Sealing is more BFR than anything else so no

Petrification and sealing I'm unsure of as of now. The verses I like are probably not representative of the average verse, so I'd like to see more Regen examples first.

 

[Agnaa]

Energy manip's not just AP, it also includes stuff like energy draining/suppressing.

Poison and disease, what about poisons that incap? So stuff like paralysis, sleep, intense pain, etc?

Sealing is "more BFR" but it still involves the body not existing, or existing in a form that the wielder doesn't want it to be in, so why wouldn't they be able to regen from that?

 

[Wokistan]

Life force stuff I believe is generally covered under godlies or healing moreso than regular Regen.

Paralysis depends how it works, from examples I can think of regen generally wouldn't work. Sleep idk, and as you already feel pain regen or not that should stick around.

I have never seen that, like at all. Same reason you don't regenerate from not being in a location, as there is a difference between calcification and just being somewhere else.

 

[Agnaa]

I've never seen that either, but I think it's a roughly equivalent argument to regenerating from transmutation.

imo the same reasoning that would give regen from fusionism/transmutation can be applied to broader things like sealing, all poison/diseases, a lot of mind/sleep, etc.

 

[Wokistan]

This is something I'm admittedly inconsistent on, and the fact that I'm going to sleep after I comment this probably doesn't help, but I don't feel that it really has a consistent answer. As of now I'll stick to what I've said regen covers and say case by case for the others, but take whatever I say about this tomorrow more seriously.

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

This really does come down to a sense what the verse considers transmutation in relation to death. Medusa in Fate, when she turns someone to stone, they are dead, but their bodies are just there as stone. Contrast with Midas from Percy Jackson, when he turns someone to Gold, they are still considered alive; the soul is still maintained and if the transmutation is reversed they are still completely fine albiet very pissed off.

Basically, you need to look at the mechanisms of the verse for if you would actually be considered dead, or even damaged, by transmutation

 

[Agnaa]

That seems reasonable, but what should the default assumption be?

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

Now there is the million dollar question.

Here is my view, if the Regenerationn is biological in nature, then Transutation should trump it by default up until low godly, since it is the cells that would be completely lost at that point, and if they can come back from the total lack of cells, then it should restore the total loss of them. Other methods should be viewed case by case.

 

[DMB_1]

I mean, you could also argue that a guy with Mid-Godly regen could regenerate his mind from being broken by mind hax or something,

 

[Tincan123]

First thank you all for responding to this question sinds it was something that we all had to talk about.

Second is that i agree with this statement from Iapitus The Impaler: Here is my view, if the Regenerationn is biological in nature, then Transutation should trump it by default up until low godly, since it is the cells that would be completely lost at that point, and if they can come back from the total lack of cells, then it should restore the total loss of them. Other methods should be viewed case by case.

Now unless the Transmutation is shown cleary in the serie/verse to work on Godly-Regen then oke Transmutation should win.

 

[Lightbuster30]

How about we give transmutation resistance via regen '''to the people who actually have feats of doing so?'''

 

[Antoniofer]

How about we give transmutation resistance via regen to the people who actually have feats of doing so?

Seems the more logical.

 

[DMB_1]

Usually, the thing that counters transmutation is Shapeshifting.

 

[Antoniofer]

Depends of the type of shapeshifting, but anyone that can turns the whole body in a different material (rock, metal, air, etc.) should be able to revert the effects of transmutation (although not sure about turning someone into data and its sub-types).

 

[Tincan123]

You mean these 2

Full conversio - Allows the user to completely transform their body, changing its shape, structure and material composition. For example, the user can turn into a creature of sand or stone. In advanced cases, user can convert the body into energy, which provides protection from physical impacts, as well as a certain degree of intangibility.

Ideal Transformation - Unlimited and absolute change to the physical form. A character with this ability can easily turn into a human, or into a rock, or into a wind, or even into in celestial objects.

 

[Lightbuster30]

Usually, the thing that counters transmutation is Shapeshifting.

That, you'd need to be conscious for. Shapeshifting usually requires thought, and if the transmutation the type where you lose consciousness then you're screwed unless you can keep yourself conscious somehow.

 

[Antoniofer]

Ideal transformation is the one that should save the user from transmutation (full conversion could work but transforming it into another material could not be reverted).

@Light, several shapeshifter can work fine as made of solid, liquid, gas and energy, so they wouldn't lost its consciousness and can revert the effects (if they want, in theory they can just work in the transmutated state if they want).

 

[Tincan123]

Well according to Powerlisting these are the Limitations on Transmutation:

- If magic-based, Magic Negation/Magic Destruction

- Immutability/Transmutation Immunity prevents Transformation.

- May require use to know the "science" behind the target they are changing.

- Transmutation that associated with another ability like Reality Warping can be highly dangerous as it give them more range to affect objects, including themselves.

- Restoration, Flawless Restoration or Absolute Restoration can undo the Transmutation.

- May be able to change only certain target types.

Altought most of them could be debate.

 

[ShiroyashaGinSan]

Could someone show me one fiction at all where transmutation is solved solely through Regenerationn?

The example here. Devilman. One of the Devilman's scan in his profile is recovery from Satan's Transmutation through pure Regen.

 

[Andytrenom]

Growing back an organ that has been transmutated I can see being possible through regen. But if the proposal is something along the lines of making regen revert the effects of transmutation, then I disagree.

 

[PaChi2]

Could someone show me one fiction at all where transmutation is solved solely through Regenerationn?

Ardyn Izunia is frozen by AZ and shattered (it'd be the same as if he had been turned to stone and shattered) and his body came back just fine.

 

[Antoniofer]

@PaChi, I think that being frozen is not the same as being tranamutated into ice.

@Andy, the most recent suggestion is being resistent to transmutation if the affected has shapeshifting (at a molecular level I would say).

 

[Tincan123]

To be fair Devilman verse is quite unique in Transmutation/Funsionism.

 

[ShiroyashaGinSan]

I think that would work if it's on a very high level. Low-level shapeshift is definitely not though.

 

[Andytrenom]

@Antoni It wouldn't exactly be resistance, he has to actually use his power in order to revert the effects of transmutation.

 

[Antoniofer]

Welp yes, "resistance" or "immunity" cuz you either revert the changes or just moves freely with no penalty (assuming that the user can transform into any other material).

 

[Tincan123]

But how are you gonne do that, unless your regen is godly level and even then their are series like Devilman that work on Mid-Godly regen

 

[Antoniofer]

Transmutation do not affects the soul nor mind (at least not directly), so this nothing to do with godly regen. Furthermore, having godly regen is not saving someone from transmutation (I even thinks there has been characters that has "sealed" immortals with transmutation).

 

[ShiroyashaGinSan]

Transmutation do not affects the soul nor mind (at least not directly), so this nothing to do with godly regen. Furthermore, having godly regen is not saving someone from transmutation (I even thinks there has been characters that has "sealed" immortals with transmutation).

Devilman Transmutation seems to be a special case though. It worked and actually transmutated spiritual, mental and abstract conceptual entities. When there's a case like that, what's do? Also yes, someone has been regenerated from it.

 

[Tincan123]

It would be good if we can find more of these special cases.

 

[ShiroyashaGinSan]

Bump. I want to see opinion to this.

 

[Tincan123]

Now are people done with this topic or are there some that have something to say about it?

 

[LordGriffin1000]

Danny Phantom regenrated back to normal from being transmutated into orange jelly then splattered.

 

[Tincan123]

Well thats interesting because technically he should be dead after transmutated into orange jelly.

 

[LordGriffin1000]

Well it's likely because he was in ghost form. Ghosts can manipulate their own ectoplasmic bodies, turn themselves into mist/gas like states. Their bodies are literally made up of ectoplasm.

Not sure if that makes a difference.

 

[Yobo_Blue]

Well it's likely because he was in ghost form. Ghosts can manipulate their own ectoplasmic bodies, turn themselves into mist/gas like states. Their bodies are literally made up of ectoplasm.

Not sure if that makes a difference.

It does. By a lot