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Also scaling wise, is it only Unicron, Primus in their true forms that scale to 1-A.
Does the Star Saber scale to this or nah
Does the Star Saber scale to this or nah
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Transformers General Discussion
- Thread starter Caleb3429
- Start date
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It wouldn’t scale to Primus, Unicron, or Tree of Life related scaling at all due to the SS failing to kill a weaker Unicron despite it being used on him per AVP. Maybe it is arguable if some of the BDE stuff is accepted for either Astral Plane or Unspace (at bottom of the op)? But those sections are more vague so I’m not dead set at those being accepted. I think the Ablyss stuff is more compelling.
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I'm mainly referring to the Star Saber being capable of collapsing the entire multiverse. In which Unicron's stronger avatars would upscale from, and I suppose Vector Prime would downscale to some extent?
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ah, it’s still a gray area since the Tree isn’t really ‘in’ the multiverse, so I don’t know that any of it can be scaled back to the Star Saber.
There is something in the story Coalescence about all entropy across the multiverse(possibly all the multiverses since the SG multiverse is part of this story) being the domain of The Fallen. It’s possible to scale Vector Prime to that since he and The Fallen are peers. The issue there is just scaling the multiverse in general is a bit odd
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Idk. It all depends to whether or not the Star Saber scales to the tree of life or not
I suppose, but it is still part of "existence" ain't it. And Nexus Prime was mentioning how the Star Saber is just straight up capable of annihilating everything.
That sounds more like some form of hax tbh. I'll try check it later.
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I actually don’t think he should be, the 13 use avatar bodies (this was first established in Beast Wars Reborn, where the body of Logos Prime that Vector kills was stated to just be one of countless others) and that’s the version of Vector we see Ramjet fight, not the abstract higher dimensional aggregate form mentioned in AVP. As Balancing Act takes place in the exact continuity of the Cybertron cartoon, it would retroactively mean Optimus, Megatron, Starscream etc. from that would also be 1B which doesn’t seem that consistent with the show. There’s a lot more to suggest avatar Vector, Ramjet, and the GF cast eos are operating more at universal or universe+ levels. The Mogahn the Mass fight, Master Galvatron being able to survive the destruction of the universe with the Omega Lock,Super Optimus and the other Cyber Key leaders defeating Galvatron in spite of this and so on.
I know Vector calls Ramjet Unicron’s most dangerous herald, but this also comes at a time when singularity characters had only really just been invented, and unlike the 13, Ramjet isn’t a singularity. What we see is what we get (though he is stated to be>the Dead Universe near the end arcs of TFCC). I personally don’t think he should scale to Vector Prime’s true form.
Even in the show Vector’s scaling is a little odd though. He sometimes loses to Megatron, but after that body had died, when Galvatron was at his strongest non-Lock boosted point, Vector was able to give Optimus enough power to effortlessly kill him in a single hit. He either sandbags like crazy or his individual bodies can’t access enough power to do that normally, and either one can be true since the comics establish he was weakened at some point due to the general search for the Keys.
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He actually doesn't. His scaling chains is based entirely off the Star Saber. And Unicron's avatars scaling above it, and Vector Prime's avatars downscaling from Unicron's avatars
Star Saber < Avatar Unicron > Avatar Vector Prime = Ramjet
Also for the Cybertron thing, Vector Prime was immensely weakened after his fight with Ramjet, and it's kinda clear he's not reached his full strength back by the time of Cybertron.
Also avatars being variable in power from universe to universe makes anyone in Cybertron scaling to Vector Prime's peak highly questionable.
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Do people genuinely think Cybertron goobers scale to peak Vector?
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Avatar Vector says directly in the comic that Unicron does not notice him during his attempts on him. This is in the same arc that he fights, and beats, Ramjet. Neither Vector or Ramjet are>the star saber, the entire reason Solus shattered it is because it’s too dangerous, which makes no sense if the 13 are naturally above it. The fact that it was half of the Shroud which cut apart the 13, while there is evidence Unicron survived with some multiversal presence intact, there isn’t (yet) for the 13, further supports this. I don’t see any grounds for scaling Vector or Ramjet to the Star Saber, even Vector’s true form, as Vector isn’t comparable to Unicron either in any meaningful way, and Unicron’s bodies also vary wildly in strength which make them tough to scale from, we just know the Star Saber can’t kill him in general.
I agree with Vector’s true form being 1B though, I think that’s non-debatable. I’m just not sold on Ramjet scaling to THAT form.
That said I am not super active on vsb and may not have a grasp of how downscaling is handled in cases like this re: Vector and Unicron, if it’s something along the lines of “Vector hasn’t been obliterated by Unicron so he has SOME scaling” which I kinda get, but am still shaky on applying that to Ramjet since the latter didn’t fight True Vector.
The issue is at least parts of Balancing Act take place somewhere during the middle of the Cybertron show, as Primus Transforms into his robot state a chapter or two after Ramjet’s beaten and we’re told this is all happening around the time Gigantion is discovered. Vector’s avatar wouldn’t have been weakened for the earlier half of the show, although it’s likely he was later (and maybe this is why that body dies during the Gigantion arc? as otherwise reversing time shouldn’t have been so draining)
I agree, but Balancing Act is one of the only times a comic took place in the same timeline as the show instead of an offshoot. I am not arguing they scale to his peak though, I don’t really think anything other than maybe some of the one off Unspace Entities that “defy known science” mentioned in AVP and Transtech material could do that. I’m just not really seeing the case for Ramjet. I love the character though, I hope he shows up again one day.
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It's not true Vector Prime he's scaling to, it's avatar Vector Prime at his strongest
And while fair point on Unicron being much stronger than Vector, the whole purpose of the 13 is that they were made to fight against Unicron. By that logic, they should be somewhat on his level in order to even do so. Though there might be other contexts that I'm missing.
There's also the other half of Ramjet's scaling chain is that he upscales above The Fallen, who supposedly downscales from Unicron.
Is it actually the same universe? Because from what I recall, Soundwave doesn't serve Unicron in the show, Primus isn't able to transform until much later, and only through specific circumstances.
Not only that, but at the beginning of the comic, Vector Prime travels from the Marvel G1 universe and then into the universe where balancing act takes place in.
If Star Saber scaling is rejected though, then they're strongest forms would probably go down to 2-B via Alternity scaling probably.
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Avatar Vector being 1B is maybe where I'm confused then, I agree with Vector in general being at that tier though (and I am not trying to scale anyone from Cybertron to that to be clear)
I agree with this, I just don't know that it necessarily means their avatars are that strong, as all these characters in question have some kind of abstract existences if that makes sense.
But why would he upscale from The Fallen either? The latter at least is the source of all entropy in the multiverse, which is a much greater scale of influence than Ramjet showcased. Ramjet is probably multiversal to some degree, he did say he held "Dead Universes" in the past, I just don't know about full scaling to 13 members.
After double checking, I may have been mistaken on this, but now I'm actually more confused than anything.
TFWiki lists "Aurex 405.0 Epsilon" as the stream for the TFCC Comic, allegedly provided by AVP. However...I cannot find any mention of this stream at all in Ask Vector Prime. When I looked into it further, TFWiki was debating it even being a universal stream designation at all, and if it was one, it was specifically in relation to the universe Nemesis Prime came from, which is not the universe Balancing Act happens in
https://tfwiki.net/wiki/Talk:Aurex_405.0_Epsilon
Going back to the Andromeda News post where it originally comes from we get this
So I'm not sure this was meant to be the Balancing Act comic, although it could be? The formatting is extremely strange though, it doesn't match other Stream designations afaik
Another very strange thing is Dreamwave Armada/Energon comics being listed as a totally different continuity which also doesn't make much sense. I would completely get it if Balancing Act was part of that timeline, since Over-Run from the unpublished DW material shows up in Balancing Act. I have no clue what to make of this.
Greg Sepelak made a brief continuity guide, but he only placed the cybertron cartoon and comic being in the same timeline as a "maybe" (gray arrow)
Revisiting Balancing Act #2 though, we do get some clarification on Vector, stating that his ability to fix paradoxes is being stretched to the limit by everything going on. This can explain in better detail why he was weaker, however we have to take into account that he is still ultimately able to beat Ramjet even in this state. This makes scaling Ramjet to his full power more questionable to me, even assuming this is not the same timeline as the cartoon.
The first fight with Ramjet takes place right after this, and after that Vector again reiterates his powers are being drained by the search for Cyber Keys. so even a Vector avatar in a somewhat weakened state, ultimately was still stronger than Ramjet and would have sealed him away had one of Nexus' limbs not intervened. So this makes scaling Ramjet even to Avatar Vector's full potential shakier to me, as he was only able to contend with one that was busy stopping time paradoxes in the background. You can disregard anything relating to this being in continuity with the cartoon and it still comes off looking strange.
That said, I think Ramjet's dialogue makes the best case for this being in continuity to the cartoon actually. When he explains his plan to Nemesis, the basis is that the Singularity shredding reality in this specific timeline is also allowing it to bleed into every other reality (which is confirmed by Vector in the show proper), and Ramjet wants to accelerate that by killing (a) Primus here and now. But this is still highly debatable and a lot more confusing than I remembered it being.
It does showcase him traveling through multiple universes such as BW, but a key thing is those are also the "original" versions as it's used to explain that he corrected the timeline of Beast Wars and the timestorm after Megatron had killed Optimus for example. And the Marvel G1 timeline shown is the exact one where Octopunch wakes up Primus/Unicron. This does not concretely mean the Cybertron timeline in the comic is the same necessarily, but I think it at least leans in that direction?
Quick question on the note of Alternity actually, just wanted to know why did they not get the 10D scaling on the wiki since Alternity stories are where the dimensional validity of Transformers came from? Ichikawa even said recently the Alternity could have possibly reached the 11th dimension but that it would have been their limit, and he only wanted to depict them as having evolved "a few steps up" fwiw. It's not a big deal, I was just curious as it seems odd to accept the cosmology Ichikawa used but not the characters that made use of it.
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Yeah, I've been talking mainly about Avatar Vector prime and not his true self. Though what's your reasoning for his true self being 1-B? Cause his current true form justification for being 1-B is mainly heavy upscaling.
Over statements of him being the strongest of Unicron's heralds. And him being presented as the biggest threat to Vector Prime that isn't Unicron. Also being "the source of all entropy" isn't really an AP thing. That's more of a hax thing like abstract existence, which is just a common thing among the primes. Plus Ramjet is simply upscaling from The Fallen's avatars, not the Fallen's true self.
Wasn't it stated that the singularity started happening in other universes as well? I've always interpreted it as them just being in a similar universe to the one in Cybertron, if that makes sense?
This being more hax based I don't think would affect his attack potency that much?
I didn't know that tweet existed until now. And the previous 10-D justification came from I think Alternity Thundercracker having a "10th dimensional processor block" which uhhhhh... isn't very solid grounds for AP.
But if what you posted is legit, then I can't really argue against High 1-C Alternity.
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Also have you read any of the Cloud stuff? I recall some Multiversal stuff in there but it's been a long while since I read Cloud so I don't remember much of it tbh.
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Vector was the one that guides the Planicrons evolution to the higher dimensions, states his true form is a higher dimensional wave function encompassing all of his other bodies, it seems to be good grounds for him scaling to the 21 known dimensions at least (also helps that he is the one in AVP outlining those for us), especially taking into consideration things like the Astral Plane and Realm of the Primes existing beyond the main reachable state of multiverse (not that he necessarily scales to either of those, but he can transcend time and space to access them at will). Though the true forms of the 13, in general, are admittedly extremely vague and weird. There's some other stuff like him having faced entities that were beyond our current understanding of quantum mechanics but I don't know if that can be directly applied to dimensions or if it's too vague (I've read somewhere quantum theory at time necessitates infinite dimensions, but I couldn't really verify that)
If it is just more focused on the avatars' relations to Ramjet then I guess that's not an issue. I still find maintaining a constant across the multiverse, similar to Vector being immortal so long as time exists, to be more impressive than Ramjet even if it isn't directly DC related tbh
This is certainly possible, especially given the endless branch universes per timeline stuff, I more meant it's odd Ramjet attributes it happening in those universes to what it was doing in this specific one.
He's still expending power of some kind to do that though? He makes it clear he isn't fighting Ramjet at the best he could be doing.
Yeah but that's just the auto avatar, and numerous Alternity bios have that. I'm not saying to scale the Auto Avatars to 10D but it should be grounds for their true aggregate forms right? Ichikawa's statement helps clarify it though at least, as he says the true forms are in the higher worlds and so forth.
That's fair, I just had no clue so thought it was worth asking. It only applies to the true forms in the upper worlds anyhow
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Some but not all as it's a bit long, I've kinda skimmed them until I have time to go through them fully. The most interesting thing I caught was that even Japanese continuities consider Unicron to be connected to all universes (this is stated in Cloud as well as some of the manga), there is a lot of multiversal travel in Cloud but I didn't see much in the way of actual destructive feats. SARA is some kind of multiversal linchpin, but her power fluctuates a ton in the stories.
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I asked because IIRC, Megatron tried to use SARA to destroy the multiverse or something.
Their true forms definitely scale to High 1-C if this is the case.
Though I don't think the Hyterion scale to this, do they?
Is the Astral Plane tied to the Tree of Life? IIRC, accessing higher realms is grounds for scaling in some way.
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From what I recall he basically says he's gonna do this a ton of times but I can't recall even a single universe being destroyed.
They should by virtue of being the Alternity's primary enemy and being what Megatron uses to fight and eventually overpower the Alternity species in general. The only reason that one gets BFR'd by Cliffjumper is because he was using a higher dimensional weapon.
It's an unknown, Vector at one point says It is "in the confines of the Allspark" in a roundabout way. I mentioned that in the CRT, but as the Astral Plane is mentioned so few times, I have no real idea how it's going to be taken. There's a similar thing where Infraspace from IDW perfectly matches the description of one of the spheres of the Tree of Life, but there is just zero confirmation they're actually meant to be the same.
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Don't they often fight the auto avatars and not the true forms though, because the true forms are too big to fight the Hyterion. Or am I misremembering.
Oh that's an oof. I'll try write down my proposals for the new scaling justifications later.
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I think misremembering, the Hytherion is just able to appear at different scales in different dimensions at will, the main issue wasn't that Alternity were too big it's that they're more limited in the ability to affect their own origin timeline, which is not a weakness Hytherion has. So they sidestep it by having agents at those points in time just knock the Hytherion out of that time period if it gets there
Sounds good
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Is there a statement for this?
You're right on the second part, but we're shown that the True Alternity were capable of just one shotting a Hytherion in Ace of Swords, not just that, but Convoy Aggregate were shown to fight against the Hytherion in To Mega Therion.
As for Megatron using the Hytherion's power to amp himself to the level of the Hytherion? Idk how to treat that, Ig that might be legit for scaling. But it's also weird since the auto avatars could fight the Hytherion, unless we also wanna scale the Auto Avatars to High 1-C, which ig works? Because nothing really says that the Auto Avatars are far weaker than the true Alternity afaik.
Ok so for the scaling plan. Ig it goes like this.
The Star Saber is capable of destroying all of reality, which would make it 1-A.
Unicron's strongest avatars are superior to this, meaning his strongest avatars should be 1-A. Primus is equal to Unicron. And both their true forms are very self explanatory. So:
Alternity is pretty self explanatory, with them being able to reach the 11-D and beyond. If we decide to scale the Auto Avatars to their true states, I suppose we could just merge both keys into one and just list them as High 1-C. With the Hytherion following suit as well.
Vector Prime and the other Thirteen is tricky. His strongest avatar should definitely scale above High 1-C since the Hytherion are a pretty regular thing he deals with on a daily. But him scaling to Unicron is where problems emerges. While Unicron and the Star Saber is established to be much stronger than Vector and the Thirteen. The Thirteen were built with the purpose of stopping Unicron, so it's clear they to some extent, they should be on somewhere near his level. But then again, as shown with the Marvel comic, so were the Transformers, and you could argue they mainly did so via artifacts and weapons.
To this I propose, just a "likely 1-A" or "likely higher" rating via the downscaling thing. either:
Personally, I think option 2 is more suitable.
For Ramjet's scaling, him being portrayed as a big threat to Vector Prime, to the point of being unsure of winning and having to use dirty tricks against Ramjet would definitely make him a bigger threat than the Hytherion. And while Vector Prime definitely did strain his abilities around this time, we don't see much physical fatigue during the arc, so I kinda doubt he'd be that much weaker.
And then there's the Megatronus scaling. While I do think Ramjet being stronger than Megatronus' avatars is legit, Megatronus' avatars doesn't have all that much feats to begin with. His best one is just the Thirteen downscaling from Unicron, and even that one is iffy.
So for Ramjet, I propose either:
Just like the Vector Prime case, I think option 2 is more suitable.
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It's from ace of swords (the part about Hytherion altering its scale) but I reread it and realized I completely forgot the Alternity had killed that Hytherion, so at least as a species their weapons are>Hytherion. This makes me very confused as to why Megatron combined with it was able to fight the entire Alternity, but I guess he's just built different. That said I don't recall the Auto Avatars fighting Hytherion directly, what Cliffjumper did was tag it with something that let the Alternity then use a weapon to wipe it out, so the avatars wouldn't get 1C scaling. In Ace of Swords Cliff specifically allows the Alternity main body to attack the Hytherion in the past (it's very odd that they have the ability to do this but need someone to point them in that direction). So Megatherion>Alternity main bodies>Hytherion i guess?
There's also that Solus was able to shatter the SS. I know that's not something strictly measurable in a conventional sense, but her being able to break apart a weapon that works on that scale at all indicates to some degree that the 13 aren't that far below it I guess, even if she did not fully or could not destroy it.
Still iffy on the Ramjet scaling but I don't really care to argue it more at this time and am fine with how you and other members choose to handle it.
Transformers Cosmology Revision / Unicron & Primus Qualitative Evaluation
A few years ago I made a previous thread, mostly focused on how Transformers used higher dimensions and such which resulted in the current standing of the series' strongest characters. Unfortunately, there was quite a lot of relatively obscure Transformers material I had yet to experience at...
In other news it looks like 1A has been accepted for Unicron, Primus, and The One at least
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Forgot about that tbh. But she kinda did with her hammer didn't she? Which in itself is an artifact. So it's kinda eh...
I'm mainly basing it off of From here to Alternity, where Optimus' Auto Avatar is implied to have fought the Hytherion off screen but it's a bit vague
For the Megatherion part, I remember Megatron fused with multiple Hytherions, which I suppose would just imagine the Hytherions are stronger as a collective than individually. But basically, Megatron requiring their power in order to fight the Alternity would mean that they're not that much below the Alternity.
But between likely 1-A or likely higher for the Primes, which proposal do you prefer? I think we should move this discussion to the main CRT btw. More convenient.
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I have a bunch of feats for JP G1, Marvel G1, IDW and Unicron trilogy. Do I just link them here?
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well the only one we have profiles for is IDW
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@RippleFrog Considering the Astral Plane is implied to be the Allspark, and Vector Prime's true form is capable of reaching the Allspark on his own, would that be viable for his true self (And presumably the rest of the thirteen's true self) to be 1-A?
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maybe? I am still a bit confused on the Astral Plane because it is implied to be at least of comparable level to the Allspark . There’s also something, it’s a bit obscure and I’d need to go look for it, where essentially the realm of the dark gods is supposed to just be the Astral Plane even though Furman wrote it very differently than he wrote the astral plane in other stories. But if it was the real Unicron and Primus came from then it had to be comparable to the Allspark in some fashion. I don’t know if just reaching it alone would give the 13 1A (this is more being unfamiliar with a lot of how VSB works) but it it does, then considering they can access that realm as needed, it would have to be valid.
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I'd say it's pretty blatant enough. Also from what you've mentioned about the dark gods thing, I think that can certainly help with scaling.
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Transformers Cosmology rescaling
The new cosmology was accepted here. Sandbox for the new ratings are here: https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User:Emirp_sumitpo/sandbox3#Cosmic_Transformers_scaling Ok, so to summarise the first obvious points. The One, Unicron, Primus and the Star Saber all get updated from 1-B to 1-A. No...
Lesgoooo
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Sorry I was late and missed this thread, but shouldn't the tree of life stuff also be added as justifications for tier 1A on the Unicron and Primus pages? It's what justifies the R>F acceptance, and the Astral Plane getting any relative scaling to that by default as well since Ultima was iffy on the Astral Plane counting for BDE on its own (though he accepted it for Unspace iirc), just seems like it would make it more clear for people not super familiar with TF.Transformers Cosmology rescaling
The new cosmology was accepted here. Sandbox for the new ratings are here: https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User:Emirp_sumitpo/sandbox3#Cosmic_Transformers_scaling Ok, so to summarise the first obvious points. The One, Unicron, Primus and the Star Saber all get updated from 1-B to 1-A. No...vsbattles.com
Lesgoooo
Awesome to finally have 1A Transformers accepted though.
Also
Trigger is doing some kind of animation project for Transformers to celebrate its 40th anniversary. Vector Prime was spotted in it.
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I already linked the full thing on the AP section. It's on the Outer verse level thing. Makes things more cohesive.
Looks to be some form of compilation of the entire franchise. Sad they're not doing an anime series, but it's great we're getting something official from Studio Trigger.Trigger is doing some kind of animation project for Transformers to celebrate its 40th anniversary. Vector Prime was spotted in it.
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Finally got an early screening for Transformers One and it was peak. The best Transformers movie and it's not even close.
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How did you see it early? Now I'm even more excited to see it
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Singapore had an early screening. I guess just try check the news to see if they're doing early screenings in your country.
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it's out! and wonderful
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It's so peak bro. You can really tell this was made full with love.
This is easily my favourite shot from it.
This is easily my favourite shot from it.
Oliver_de_jesus
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It's beautiful
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G1 Marvel Megatron is pure ass ngl
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He is one of the most insane versions of Megatron, and he is even more insane if you want to add the UK version... which becomes a bit more complicated since you have one who is the true Megatron and the other who is the Megatron+Straxus' mind combined clone who thinks they are Megatron but they aren't
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