Tourney match 5 Diend vs Ashen one.

[00potato]

Before I say anything. The one stipulation here is that the closest bonfire is too far away for the Ashen one to make it back to the battlefield in time, so him dying counts as BFR. Besides that same rules as before. I might have to restrict some of Diend’s transformations/ summons if they breaks tourney rules.
The grand tournament, held once a year was a grand event inviting many folks from different parts of the world to fight. The prize, money, gold, treasure, and prestige. The treasure was what brought Daiki Kaito to the competition. Something rare and irreplaceable, something valuable only he would have. It felt reasonable for him to win and extremely dangerous for him to steal, so why wouldn’t he fight in this tournament?
His opponent appeared to be a knight, medieval in appearance but with a grim aura around him. The knight charged towards him immediately barely giving Diend time to dodge and transform.
“A feisty guy ain’t you?” The thief tried to start some small talk. The knight would not respond, Daiki wondered if he was even a man at this point. It’s movements were cold and empty of life; was it a machine, empty husk or a person broken by the world? Just looking at him Gabe a feeling of profound sadness.
It didn’t matter now, he continued to avoid the swipes and loaded his cards. The real fight started then.
Profiles
Diend

Kamen Rider Diend

Daiki Kaito (海東 大樹 Kaitō Daiki) is a mysterious youth who knows Tsukasa Kadoya before he lost his memory, originating from a world that has been taken over the Undead Jashin 13 and his army of Roaches. While presenting himself as a cheerful figure, Kaito can get very serious as he sees material...

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Ash

Ashen One

The Ashen One is the playable character and the protagonist of Dark Souls III. The title of Ashen One is given to the player by the Fire Keeper of Firelink Shrine. By the events of Dark Souls III, the Ashen One rose from their grave and started a journey to defeat all other Lords of Cinder and...

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[Nicetoderp]

Well from the get go we can see that Ashen One have quite the versatility and AP advantage. A lot of things in his arsenal can really messed Diend up.

The problem though, is that Diend doesn’t fight fair. He gonna pop invisibility and summoned a bunch of Riders to aids him.

Their AP are around Diend but the advantage in numbers will certainly help. So now the fight will be 3 v 1/ 4 v 1. And some of the Rider have nasty effect with them even if the speedy boys from Kabuto are banned from this fight.

Hibiki’s Rider can used their finisher to temporarily paralyzed his opponent to take a finisher, same goes for the like of Ixa.

Ryuki’s Rider can force BFR if there is any sort of reflective surface with their own summons as well. With Knight ability to make more copies of himself to fight with.

Kamen Rider Ixa can literally blind Ashen One permanently with how bright his light is, and depend on how good of a soul resistances Ashen One have. He’ll get his soul obliterated by Ixa eventually.

And, well, Diend can just keep spamming out more summons after one another. And if I remembered correctly, Ashen One doesn’t have any large AoE attacks, right? If so then this fight will be realllly hard for him.

 

[MagiSinbad]

^Ashen One is an undead who can get hollowed (appearance turn into typicall undead) overtime, basically, his flesh become rotten and his eyesballs become lost. So no Ixa's flash light to goes blind.
Hibiki riders dont have profiles except for Hibiki himself...
Ryuki riders dont seem to uses their mirror world trick much when they are controlled by DiEnd

 

[Nicetoderp]

I don’t see any resistances nor Inhuman Physiology on his profile. And are you sure that they are positively unable to be blind? Isn’t there literally a blind undead character in DS3? My knowledge are spotty though.

Just because they don’t have profiles doesn’t mean he can’t summoned them, but for the sake of argument that he can’t summoned them here.

And just because they won’t use it as much doesn’t mean they won’t use it entirely. And eventually one of the more brutal Rider is gonna pull it off.

Also, Blade’s Rider can seal him if Ashen One drop his guard.

And well, that still leave him with a major problem of getting gank to death. But I am open to hear if he have a way out of this.

 

[MagiSinbad]

And well, going in-character, like Decade, Diend usually go for the summons that resembling his opponent. Since his opponent is a knight, it's better to summon another Knight. Diend really love to abuse his opponent with a crowd, so i can see him command Knight to duplicate himself to fight Ashen One while Diend himself goes invisible, hide himself somewhere to uses Blast

 

[MagiSinbad]

Also, Blade’s Rider can seal him if Ashen One drop his guard.

Wait, Blade riders cards can seal anything other than Undead (Undead of Kamen rider) ? I thought it's only possible because the Undead's seal gate are opened after the said undead got beat up really bad
i didnt get into Blade really far, only saw a few episode

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

Pretty sure if Ashen One sees this guy summon more minions that can duplicate themselves while this guy turns invisible (btw, he's dealt with invisible enemies before) he's gonna go for one of his AOE attacks like Fire Storm (a bunch of Flaming Pillars surround him) or Chaos Bed Vestiges (essentially a Flaming Rasenshuriken from Naruto) or possibly summon his own Support if their's any White Soapstone markings in the Arena (kinda doubt it but it's on his Profile).

 

[ThisThingisReallyBroken]

His paralyzing mist is an attack,so that could work.

Also why did you restrict ressurection you monster.

 

[00potato]

Usually combat applicable ressurection wouldn’t even be allowed but since Ashen One‘s has a weakness, I abused that to let him in.

 

[Nicetoderp]

The AoE would help. But the problem now become the fact that Ashen One have limited mana. And if I reckoned he can only use magic, especially the big one like those, only so many times before it ran out completely. And it is most likely that the AoE won’t even kill the summons or Daiki even if it is hit, heavily damage for sure but not dead.

While Diend can continue to summons more and more summons while he himself can shoot homing attacks from afar will wear him down. Mixed with the various abilities mentioned above I am inclined to lean toward Diend here.

But I will not vote yet.

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

Ashen One also has Mindhax he can use. What are the Summons' Resistance to Mindhax?

 

[SamanPatou]

Well, there are some things to cover.
First, I'm not sure about the math I found, but Ashen should hold a decent advantage in AP and durability, since it is island+, according to the number I saw (even though I'm not sure to have understood them properly)
Moving on, from what I see from the profiles and what you all said, Diend likes to spam summoning other Kamen Riders and shoot from afar with his homing energy projectiles, while turning invisible and raising a barrier.
On the other side, Ashen has a ton of things more than Diend. It has a wider arsenal (assuming that he can use all the weapons, items, spells etc... listed in its profile), with swords, shields, magic stuff etc... and should have much more experience in fighting with different kinds of foes, like monsters, warriors etc...
A very important thing that I need to know is if the Kamen Rider summoned by Diend possess his same strength, because I only saw the profiles of Hibiki and Knight, and both don't stand a chance against Ashen (assuming that Knight isn't 6-A)
I also need to know if the gap in strength is so wide (I don't know the value of a "+") and likely determine at least a vague idea of how many hits Diend could withstand and how Ashen's durability would work, given this difference.
Thanks to his higher durability, immortality type 2, stamina, regeneration and healing items and miracles (which can replenish both health and magic energy) Ashen should be able to keep on fighting for a long period and not receive extensive damage.
Ashen also isn't new to fights where it is outnumbered or the enemy is invisible, and can also amplify its stats, reduce damage, become invisible, summon things and attack from distance with various elemental attacks, magic projectiles (some of which are homing) and more like telekinesis. From what I see and read, he also have some AoE attacks and the lifestealing weapons and soul absorbing power could help it sustain an assault from many enemies.

Concluding, I think that Ashen One can go through this fight, even against more enemies, and eventually win.
For now, I vote Ashen One

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

Also the fact that if he kills any of them he has a Hex that turn Corpses into Landmines he can use against Enemies.

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

Well, there are some things to cover.
First, I'm not sure about the math I found, but Ashen should hold a decent advantage in AP and durability, since it is island+, according to the number I saw (even though I'm not sure to have understood them properly)
Moving on, from what I see from the profiles and what you all said, Diend likes to spam summoning other Kamen Riders and shoot from afar with his homing energy projectiles, while turning invisible and raising a barrier.
On the other side, Ashen has a ton of things more than Diend. It has a wider arsenal (assuming that he can use all the weapons, items, spells etc... listed in its profile), with swords, shields, magic stuff etc... and should have much more experience in fighting with different kinds of foes, like monsters, warriors etc...
A very important thing that I need to know is if the Kamen Rider summoned by Diend possess his same strength, because I only saw the profile of this Hibiki and Knight, and both don't stand a chance against Ashen (assuming that Knight isn't 6-A)
I also need to know if the gap in strength is so wide (I don't know the value of a "+") and likely determine at least a vague idea of how many hits Diend could withstand and how Ashen's durability would work, given this difference.
Thanks to his higher durability, immortality type 2, stamina, regeneration and healing items and miracles (which can replenish both health and magic energy) Ashen should be able to keep on fighting for a long period and not receive extensive damage.
Ashen also isn't new to fights where it is outnumbered or the enemy is invisible, and can also amplify its stats, reduce damage, become invisible, summon things and attack from distance with various elemental attacks, magic projectiles (some of which are homing) and more like telekinesis. From what I see and read, he also have some AoE attacks and the lifestealing weapons and soul absorbing power could help it sustain an assault from many enemies.

Concluding, I think that Ashen One can go through this fight, even against more enemies, and eventually win.
For now, I vote Ashen One

The + usually means it's in the upper half of the Tier, so in the high end of Island Level.

 

[SamanPatou]

I know the meaning, but I don't know how much this difference is. If Ashen would take down Diend with few or many hits, while tanking or only receive less damage from his attacks.
And it it is the case, the same should apply to the other Kamen Riders summoned, assuming that they have stats equal to those of Diend
Anyway, thank you for the reply!

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

I'm not sure where Diend Scales as I couldn't find a Calc, but if he's Baseline then Ashen One One-Shots him because his own Calc ranges from 25 Gigatons to High 6-C on it.

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

Actually, he upscales a little bit from 25 Gigatons at a Minimum because he killed the Nameless King who is stronger than the Storm Drake who performed the feat.

 

[SamanPatou]

Well, in that case every other Kamen Rider would be slayed with ease and no one of them would deal great damage to Ashen.
AoE and homing attacks should also be very effective to kill the horde and hit the summoner.

 

[Nicetoderp]

All summons have no resistances to mind manip. However he can easily dispelled them once they are summoned.

Corpse doesn’t turn into land mine since the defeated summons simply disappear after they are defeated.

And Diend scale to 10 gigaton due to scaling to Decade. So around 2.5~ times difference. So Ashen One won’t be one shorting anybody anytime soon especially when Diend himself can create barrier as well.

And yes, all of the summons is at least as strong as himself otherwise they wouldn’t be able to fight his enemy at all. And the summons all have their own abilities to at least distract Ashen One or keep him busy. Ixa can literally blind a man with how bright his light should be, with passive soul destruction on every hit, various Ryuki riders making their own summons and BFR into mirror world on any sort of reflective surface, Hibiki’s Rider like Kabuki able to paralyze the opponent for like 10 seconds and bash the enemies in, Chalice’s ability to seal the enemy, and he himself can make more clones of himself if he so desire with Illusions.

And as I stated above, with this amount of summons going on and the limit of ho much spell he can cast before he is force to chug his blue Sunny D to refill he’s gonna be pressure hard since Diend will be at the way back with his homing shot.

 

[SamanPatou]

The limited mana wouldn't be much of a problem in a while, it already has a great capacity and can fully replenish it with items.
Good to hear that the difference isn't oppressive, but it is always a good gap, and Ashen can boost his own statistics.
Magi said that sealing is limited to specific being within Kamen Riders verse, is that true? The BFR sure is a factor, since Ashen can't come back by itself, but from what I read from the previous messages it isn't really in character for the users, even though it would be effective with the great amount of reflecting surfaces present.
How many Kamen Riders can be summoned at a time and how many can he summon in total, before finishing "energy", it it can finish?
Paralylis and blindness are surely things, but Ashen has many ways to heal himself (and mid-low regen should cover damages to the eyes) and steal energy from its victims.
All of this while reducing damage, boosting his already higher stats etc...
I don't know how durable is the barrier, so I'm not sure how many hits it would be able to endure.
And I forgot Rapport, the mind controlling pyromancy that turns the victims into allies, that would also be a major problem for Diend.
The aforementioned AoE can deal with the summons, as well as Ashen's own summons, and he too can turn innvisible just like Diend.
Are those Kamen Riders copies of the originals or the true ones? What if Ashen absorbs their souls after defeating them? Can they come back?

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

I said he Upscaled from above 25 Gigatons at a minimum since that was what a weaker character did then said character was absorbed by someone who was already stronger than him and Ashen One killed that guy.

 

[Nicetoderp]

And how great? How many spell can he truly cast? From what I’ve read from the wiki the two AoE seem to cost quite a fair bit as well with very large tell.

The summons are copied of the original. While they technically do have soul it wouldn’t do much since he can just resummoned them again if they do goes pop. Diend can summoned at least 3 Cards at the same times max, with one card able to summoned three of them at the same times. And depend on what is summoned they can bring more summons into the fight as well.

And most Rider and their mother have enhanced senses. But since we are still under Wiki Migration. CRT hasn’t been made to clarify that fact but that is a moot point for this discussion.

And while it may not be in character for the summons Ryuki’s Rider like Knight and Ray. If he were to summoned someone like Ouja or Ryuga then there is a very likely chance that they’ll happily drag their prey into their home field advantage.

And the rate of fire for their range are way different. While Diend can shoot hundreds of rounds every 10 or so seconds. From what I have seen so far the range magic for Ashen One are petty damn slow, like, really slow.

 

[SamanPatou]

Have these cards a limited number of uses? Because at this point I think that the battle would be harder for Ashen, but he still holds a good advantage in strenght and durability, with the 2.5 being a very minimum, and he has many ways to further enhance his stats, making short work of the enemies with any kind of attack and use them for his own purposes, like turning them into allies of using their life force and souls to replenish health or fuel his sorcieries.
With its durability, damage reduction, shields, stats amping, natural regeneration, immortality type 2 and many ways to heal, even being hit or block hits wouldn't be that much of a problem, and he is still more expert in combat, at least according to both profiles (I don't know what the summoned Riders went through their life, but from what I got they don't think like the real ones).
I agree that Ashen is in a range disantvage, but invisibility, complete silence, greater stamina, and the great variety of homing and ranged attacks would much help him to close the gap.
I read now of the great cost of the AoE, so Ashen should have some restrains in using them, but it's not the only way he has to take down a great number of enemies, and he is kind of used to face many opponents at the same time
I still think that Ashen wins more times than not

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

Yeah, I think Ashen One should more so be 5x stronger considering the Nameless King Is only a little bit stronger than his Stormdrake who performed the 25 Gigaton Feat and then absorbed it and it's power, so that should be at least a 2x boost. Then Ashen One has his own Stat Buffs he can use.

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

Not to mention his Immortality that can shrug off pretty ridiculous Injuries like being impaled and then Electrocuted Inside Out (which the Nameless King does if he hits you with a specific attack) and ridiculous stamina advantage. Also, the Ashen One has the Nameless King's Weapons and Spell. His Sword Spear can drop a bolt of Lightning down onto an enemy even if their Invisible. Just saying.

 

[X_Squared]

Ashen One FRA

 

[00potato]

The nameless king being twice as strong as the dragon? That is a stretch. Anyway the protagonist is DS games doesn’t match the bosses in raw power and gets shredded in a few hits so he backscales from all of them if anything.

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

The nameless king being twice as strong as the dragon? That is a stretch. Anyway the protagonist is DS games doesn’t match the bosses in raw power and gets shredded in a few hits so he backscales from all of them if anything.

That's Game Mechanics most of the time because in Dark Souls 3 you should already be above the Nameless King in Power because you would've already killed the Abyss Watchers, who are Star Level. And yes, he should be 2x as strong as the Stormdrake because his profile already says he's stronger than it in Base without absorbing it. It's one of the reasons he has two Keys on his profile.

 

[00potato]

This isn’t the star level key so that doesn’t matter.
You can’t just call something game mechanics when no lore contradicts it. Everything about it from the bosses size, the way they attack, is all set up with the idea that you are weaker yet you have to rely on agility and skill along with respawning to win. Just because something includes mechanics in games, that doesn’t prevent it from being canon unless it is contradicted; gameplay can be a good way to illustrate and display things too.

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

Your missing the point though. You literally can't fight the Nameless King without having already killed the Abyss Watchers, who are Star Level. That's why it's Game Mechanics in his Case at the very least and I'm also not entirely sure why the Ashen One has a 6-C Key at all since the Abyss Watchers are an Early Game Boss.

 

[00potato]

So you are saying that he is star level in the island level key? Make a CRT for when that is allowed.

That still doesn’t really disprove him being weaker then the King though. Wouldn’t that just put the king over the watchers and the protagonist, but not to the point of stomping?

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

So you are saying that he is star level in the island level key? Make a CRT for when that is allowed.

That still doesn’t really disprove him being weaker then the King though. Wouldn’t that just put the king over the watchers and the protagonist, but not to the point of stomping?

It would, but he's the reason there's an Island Level Feat at all and he has no real reason to be Star Level aside from Fighting you. I think this has been brought up before but was just ignored and treated as an outlier or something, which I think was dumb.

 

[00potato]

Yeah I can agree that we are too strict with the outliers here.

 

[00potato]

As long as the debate can still happen as it is now, I think it’s fine. I don’t care as much about this being added.

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

I still think him being that much weaker is strange though because you can kill his dragon which he's already stronger than, then absorbs said Dragon and all of it's power and you're still able to kill him just fine because Canonically the Ashen One has Zero Deaths unlike The Chosen Undead and I can't remember if the Bearer of the Curse has any Canonical Deaths, but I know for a Fa t the Ashen One has no Deaths that Progress that story except for Lord of Hollows Ashen One because you need to die a couple of times for that, but that ending is beyond Optional because you have to go way out of your way to do it.

 

[00potato]

But him being a lot weaker, while strange. Is still the message most of the franchise conveys. Also could you prove what route he even is on at this point? I don’t see how you could prove that he didn’t die of it is based on the ending route and a canon respawn exists.

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

It's Canon to the lore because that's just how Undead work and it was demonstrated by The Chosen Undead who's only Canonical Death was because Seath Cheated by Range Spamming him while constantly regenerating health from a spot you could barely hit him from and then when TCU died they reopened at a Bonfire they had never seen before because it was set up as a trap by Seath. Only one of the Endings of Dark Souls 3 actually requires you to die, the other 3 don't.

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

The only one that requires you to die is the optional one that forces you to Hollow yourself to gain extra power. He has an entire key all to that Endings Self because it's stronger than his normal Endgame self and because it's much different in general.

 

[00potato]

That was the only death that is guaranteed but is there anything stating that he must not die? Just because one ending requires you to die doesn’t mean that you can’t die and get some of the others.

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

That was the only death that is guaranteed but is there anything stating that he must not die? Just because one ending requires you to die doesn’t mean that you can’t die and get some of the others.

No, but you can't just assume he died either because no one straight up says "You got killed" at any point in the Souls Games.