Touhou's UES + More Hax

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

It should at least scale to all youkai, given that youkai are inherently tied to the mental layer, control the world through it, are made of spirit, and have magical energy connected to their very life force. Also, Reimu having divine shrine maiden abilities isn't a big deal when she still uses spell cards, which WoG says are magic spells. So any spell card user can scale to this as well. I already posted a list of non-youkai non-spell card users, who are the character's I'll be excluding from these revisions.

That's fair, though I still think stat-amping magic is far from limited to Byakuren. Even Marisa can do it, despite her proficiency in magic being mostly limited by her status as a human.

 

[Hecatia_Gaming]

'k then. I agree.

 

[Malomtek]

Don't make me tap the sign.

You plugging your ears and going "la la la la" in regards to anyone not of your specific echo chamber doesn't make your arguments any stronger though.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

It's not about my arguments. It's about how your arguments rely on semantics and argument from belief rather than hard evidence. I and other Touhou supporters will gladly provide the necessary pieces of evidence for our arguments, instead of just post walls of text about "hyperbole" and "flowery language" and "wank". I will gladly debate those people because them being willing to bring evidence to the table shows that they value my time and intelligence. Stonewalling, like you're doing, does not, and I have no reason to engage with it.

This hobby is not meant to be a shouting contest; I do this because I enjoy good faith discussions about these topics. I will not let you bait me into debating you until you prove that you will respect my time and intelligence the same everyone else does, and no amount of taunting on your end will change that.

I suggest everyone follow this advice as well.

 

[Urshani]

You plugging your ears and going "la la la la" in regards to anyone not of your specific echo chamber doesn't make your arguments any stronger though.

all he did was ask you for scans, how hard is it for you to do that? you're just repeating the same behavior that made you get banned.

 

[Malomtek]

It's not about my arguments. It's about how your arguments rely on semantics and argument from belief rather than hard evidence. I and other Touhou supporters will gladly provide the necessary pieces of evidence for our arguments, instead of just post walls of text about "hyperbole" and "flowery language" and "wank". I will gladly debate those people because them being willing to bring evidence to the table shows that they value my time and intelligence. Stonewalling, like you're doing, does not, and I have no reason to engage with it.

This hobby is not meant to be a shouting contest; I do this because I enjoy good faith discussions about these topics. I will not let you bait me into debating you until you prove that you will respect my time and intelligence the same everyone else does, and no amount of taunting on your end will change that.

I suggest everyone follow this advice as well.

Your fetishization on "bringing scans" is irrelevant when none of the scans actually unequivocally support anything you say, and it's even more silly because it implies that you can't actually refute anything said about a verse unless you have piles of images and text walls neatly tied up in a folder, even when you otherwise only need pure logic to refute the gross misrepresentations being put on display.

This is in response to @Meganova_Stella too.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

"Fetishization" I'm not ******* the scans dude.

Anyways,

I will not let you bait me into debating you until you prove that you will respect my time and intelligence the same everyone else does, and no amount of taunting on your end will change that.

 

[Promestein]

controlling temperament is a requirement in magic

Temperament being relevant to magic doesn't mean that they are actively controlling it.

Well, Byakuren, Ran, Chen, and the cast of ULiL at the bare minimum can scale their physical abilities to magic. It wouldn't be logical to assume that this is entirely unique to them, especially when they don't seem to share any sort of common ground aside from the ability to use magic. It seems more likely that this is just an inherent quality of magic in general, and not something exclusive to this specific list of characters.

Magic can be used to do these things and may be widely used to do these things but our rules prevent us from giving it to every magic user. This is not negotiable and I will block every suggestion like this until the end of time. Use better arguments.

If x shows y, x can do y. If z is necessary for y, x can do z. That's as far as this goes.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

...Temperament isn't just related to magic. It's literally one of the core aspects that allows magic to exist in the first place.

 

[Promestein]

Needing a soul to cast magic doesn't mean you manipulate souls. Needing temperament to cast magic doesn't mean you control temperament.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Let me put it this way: If I'm making a recipe, and that recipe requires eggs, I'm using eggs every time I make the recipe. They're not just "relevant" to the recipe; they're a necessity. Temperament is the eggs in this scenario.

If x shows y, x can do y. If z is necessary for y, x can do z. That's as far as this goes.

...This is the entire basis of giving magic users temperament manipulation. Magic users can use magic, and controlling temperament is a requirement in magic. Therefore, magic users can control temperament.

Further proof of this is the description of Marisa's master spark, which describes it as concentrating one's mind, ie; temperament.

And of course, there's still the list of examples of character's controlling temperament that exists outside their own body.

 

[Promestein]

I'm gonna go really quick and concentrate my mind. Better give me Soul Manipulation for this, okay?

As a result of their own abilities and such.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Well, if you can concentrate your mind hard enough to fire a giant death laser, then yeah, obviously that grants some kind of ability. It's soul/mind manipulation because we know what's actually being focused here is temperament.

Again, I should bring up the existence of phantoms, which are quite literally temperament, as stated by Komachi. Their mere existence can affect the mental state of those around them, so temperament as a general concept should be capable of the same, since temperament = phantoms. Is it really that big of a stretch to assume that those who can actively focus their temperament can replicate the effects of temperament just passively existing?

 

[Promestein]

It's light manipulation, actually, because that's what happens. Concentrating your mind to do an ability is the most basic shit ever, it's not mind manipulation or soul manipulation or anything.

Phantoms are pure temperament, different from an actual person.

 

[Urshani]

i'll follow mokou's guide and ignore malomtek then

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

But why are we assuming that phantoms are any different from the temperament inside someone's body? They should be the same, given that phantoms are literally just the souls of living beings. Everyone has one.

In fact, the only real difference is that non-phantoms have a physical body stemming the passive exertion of temperament. This is basically the plot of SWR; everyone's temperament is leaking out of their bodies, and messing with the weather as a result, the exact kind of weather being dependent on their emotional state.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

(There were probably better scans to pick from in regards to this but I didn't feel like rereading SWR's script again after last night lmao)

 

[Promestein]

They don't have control over that, though! Phantoms are different just by virtue of being independent undead beings, it's that simple.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Except they do, just not in SWR. The main difference is that under normal circumstances, it needs to be 'concentrated', while it was passive in SWR only. Hence why I'm treating this as an active system and not a passive one. Touhou will not be getting it's equivalent of a Reiatsu crush, unfortunately

Why would them being undead or independent change anything? They're just blobs of temperament without a vessel to contain them; why is the temperament inside a person's body any different?

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

I also still disagree that only a handful of magic users can use stat-amping magic, since the 'spell power' system in ULiL is such a non-specific thing and universally applies to people who's magic is very different from one another. Mokou's magic is vaguely wide ranging, Marisa's magic specializes in raw power and giant lasers, Reimu's magic is more spiritual and defensive in nature, and so on. The only common thread here is that they use magic, and use 'spell power' to enhance physical techniques. Even then, the existence of a 'spell power' system isn't really necessary, as Ran and Chen can stat amp themselves with magic just fine without it.

It seems more likely that the ability to increase physical power via magic is something that is broadly accessible and easy to use (even for people who have relatively little experience with magic, like Sumireko), so I see no reason why it shouldn't scale to every spell card user, if not every magic user.

 

[Promestein]

Phantoms do other shit too and clearly interact with the world in ways that regular people don't, even those who use magic.

I strongly disagree with adding it to anyone who hasn't shown it.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Yes, because phantoms exert temperament passively at all times, while everyone else needs to activate it. Phantoms are just the temperament of living beings without the actual body. I'm not even sure what else you could be referring to when it comes to phantoms interacting with the world in different ways than physical beings. Maybe shapeshifting/cold manipulation, but those aren't things that are specific to phantoms outside a body. They could very well be cold to the touch and malleable even within a physical body.

Fine. I'm not gonna get anywhere arguing this point because it's highly subjective. If anyone else wants to argue on my behalf, feel free to do so. Maybe I overlooked something, idk.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

I'm still adamantly against any rejection of Touhou feats that rely on "we don't see it in action therefore it didn't happen/isn't possible", since at that point we may as well throw out half the verse. Like I said though, I'm not gonna stay on this point anymore.

 

[Promestein]

Except no one else showcases the same abilities when they concentrate. If it was such an omnipresent reality and possibility it'd be acknowledged. You can't just assume away every inconsistency and contradiction by saying 'well, yeah, but they can just control it so that doesn't happen'; the question is can they control it, this contradicts that, and the proper answer isn't yeah they can it's fine they're doing it there actually. Never stated; simply your interpretation of the text. I refuse to accept it.

We wouldn't throw out half the verse because things are explicitly stated, unlike the assumptions you're making.

 

[Malomtek]

Temperament being relevant to magic doesn't mean that they are actively controlling it.

Magic can be used to do these things and may be widely used to do these things but our rules prevent us from giving it to every magic user. This is not negotiable and I will block every suggestion like this until the end of time. Use better arguments.

If x shows y, x can do y. If z is necessary for y, x can do z. That's as far as this goes.

I'm gonna go really quick and concentrate my mind. Better give me Soul Manipulation for this, okay?

As a result of their own abilities and such.

It's light manipulation, actually, because that's what happens. Concentrating your mind to do an ability is the most basic shit ever, it's not mind manipulation or soul manipulation or anything.

Phantoms are pure temperament, different from an actual person.

They don't have control over that, though! Phantoms are different just by virtue of being independent undead beings, it's that simple.

Phantoms do other shit too and clearly interact with the world in ways that regular people don't, even those who use magic.

I strongly disagree with adding it to anyone who hasn't shown it.

Except no one else showcases the same abilities when they concentrate. If it was such an omnipresent reality and possibility it'd be acknowledged. You can't just assume away every inconsistency and contradiction by saying 'well, yeah, but they can just control it so that doesn't happen'; the question is can they control it, this contradicts that, and the proper answer isn't yeah they can it's fine they're doing it there actually. Never stated; simply your interpretation of the text. I refuse to accept it.

We wouldn't throw out half the verse because things are explicitly stated, unlike the assumptions you're making.

But I was told you needed scans to say all this shit by the people in this thread, and that you couldn't just use logic and reasoning. Or was that always a silly attempt to impose "rules" that never actually existed?

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Dude oh my god shut up already

Promestein doesn't act like a whiny bitch every time someone proposes an upgrade, and actually addresses the evidence at hand. I can excuse the lack of scans on her part because 1). she's a staff member who likely has far less time to dedicate to hunting down scans and 2). she's actually been respectful and I feel like her objections are actually in good faith, rather than whatever the **** you're doing.

By the way, I'm fine if the majority of this thread gets shot down since the points made were actually discussed at length by knowledgeable members. I still believe we can get something out of this thread, even if it isn't what I was initially shooting for. I'll revise my initial proposals to better fit in line with what's been rejected in a while, though I'll be out for a few hours.

 

[Malomtek]

Dude oh my god shut up already

Promestein doesn't act like a whiny bitch every time someone proposes an upgrade

Try to cool it now. I haven't personally insulted you at any point in this thread, and I feel you should give me the same courtesy. I respectfully ask that you apologize to me for these "smart" remarks.

And if you're already getting this heated over a small content revision debate, might I also suggest that you get off the computer for a while to cool down for a bit?

 

[Malomtek]

Btw spiritual stuff aside don't we have enough evidence to give spell card participants magic at the very least since it's a hax?

Magic in and of itself isn't a "hax", and not all "spell card" users use magic as such anyway. Only give magic to those explicitly stated to be magicians or use magic in Touhou.

 

[Mobi2]

Magic in and of itself isn't a "hax", and not all "spell card" users use magic as such anyway. Only give magic to those explicitly stated to be magicians or use magic in Touhou.

I meant add magic to their pages. It has a page on the wiki.

 

[Malomtek]

I meant add magic to their pages. It has a page on the wiki.

And like I said, only give magic to those explicitly stated to be magicians or use magic in Touhou.

 

[OverlordDonnelly]

ZUN himself stated spell cards are magic cards that the characters themselves use and created, so no.

If anything, anyone who participates in danmaku AND uses/creates spell cards, should have magic.

 

[Malomtek]

ZUN himself stated spell cards are magic cards that the characters themselves use and created, so no.

If anything, anyone who participates in danmaku AND uses/creates spell cards, should have magic.

ZUN said that the "spell cards" include magic spells, curses, "and so on". That "and so on" can include things that are not necessarily magic, so no.

 

[Mobi2]

And like I said, only give magic to those explicitly stated to be magicians or use magic in Touhou.

There's a few characters missing magic on their profiles that are able to use it yes.

 

[Malomtek]

There's a few characters missing magic on their profiles that are able to use it yes.

Then it's perfectly fine to add "magic" to those profiles.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

I get back from dinner and Mal is arguing against word of god again. Wonderful. Let's not waste time on this meaningless debate, shall we?

Anyways, as promised, the new proposal list taking previous rejections into account:
-Everyone who can use spell cards should get magic, as word of god states that they are magic spells.
-Every youkai should get magic, soul, mind, and empathic manipulation since they can control the world through the mental layer of reality, akin to how they have physics and gravity manipulation via controlling the physical layer.
-Every magic user should have extrasensory perception, as magic users can detect changes in temperament.
-The cast of ULiL should all get statistics amplification, due to being able to use spell power to enhance the strength of their spell cards.

...I can't help but feel like I missed something, but oh well.

 

[Malomtek]

I get back from dinner and Mal is arguing against word of god again.

Then it's perfectly fine to add "magic" to those profiles [where Touhou characters depicted as using magic have the power of "magic" missing from their Powers and Abilities portion].

I have no idea why you are so willfully interpreting my arguments (again), except out of extreme disingenuity and selective reading comprehension.

And you still haven't apologized for directly insulting me, but I guess that's just to be expected from you.

-Every youkai should get magic, soul, mind, and empathic manipulation since they can control the world through the mental layer of reality, akin to how they have physics and gravity manipulation via controlling the physical layer.

Not every youkai has displayed soul, mind, and/or empathic manipulation, and therefore we should only give such powers to those who have explicitly displayed or are described to have them.

And I have some severe reservations on giving physics and gravity manipulation to youkai by default, but that's for another CRT.

 

[Promestein]

Youkai interact with the world through the Physical and Mental layers but they do so through unique, differing ways; I'm not necessarily against some degree of standardization but I don't think they all have some generalized mind manip for this, I think that's a misinterpretation of what the mental layer is

 

[Malomtek]

Youkai interact with the world through the Physical and Mental layers but they do so through unique, differing ways; I'm not necessarily against some degree of standardization but I don't think they all have some generalized mind manip for this, I think that's a misinterpretation of what the mental layer is

Do you have any comment on FujiwaraYesMokou calling me a "whiny bitch", which I presume is "over the line" as far as the rules go?

Quoted here:

Dude oh my god shut up already

Promestein doesn't act like a whiny bitch every time someone proposes an upgrade

 

[Promestein]

You're pretty much just as inflammatory, just more passive-aggressive about it, just stop taking potshots at each other, and that includes in my dms

 

[Malomtek]

You're pretty much just as inflammatory, just more passive-aggressive about it, just stop taking potshots at each other, and that includes in my dms

Wait, Fujiwara has been contacting you in DMs?

I don't think anything I've said was a "potshot" or particularly "passive-aggressive", as I have consistently restricted my remarks and statements to YesMokou's arguments and YesMokou's arguments alone. I never made particularly personal attack like YesMokou has.