Touhou vampire scaling

[DontTalk]

The question I want to bring up is how vampires in touhou should be scaled.

Given that they are supposed to posses oni like strength mountain level is the minimum.

But there are other things to notice. Perfect Memento in strict sense lists the species of vampires as powerful enough to participate in Gensokyos power balance, which is amazing given that only 2 vampires exist in gensokyo. (or at the very least so few that it is clear the the scarlet sisters are the ones one thinks about, when talking about vampires)

That aside vampires are regarded as one of the most powerful youkai species in gensokyo.


With that known one of two things should happen:

Either Remilia is upgraded or Flandre downgraded.

I am quite certain that her current country level comes from scaling from utsuho before she got upgraded or scaling from patchouli.

Personally I regard Utsuho as a special individuum amongst youkai that shouldn't be scaled from that easily; Patchouli could be realistic on the other hand, but I am not sure about the whole matter.

Opinions?

 

[DontTalk]

So AP revision is over, it seems. So this thread can start.

 

[Antvasima]

Yes. It should be fine now.

 

[CrossverseCrisis]

Hmm. If vampires in Touhou really do have at least mountain level strength, then i suppose Flandre would have to be downgraded.....i think? Idk, this is jsut me shooting in the dark with having next to no knowledge on a series such as this....

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I think Remilia ought to be upgraded, honestly. The two really don't seem that faraway in canon.

Also, why is Yukari not possibly 4-C? There is really nothing in Touhou 8 indicating that she's beneath Eirin, quite the contrary.

 

[Drac32Drac]

Probably because there really isn't much of any concrete evidence whatsoever as to the level of power Yukari possesses beyond that she's at least Eirin's equal in strategy. She warps reality, but she has stated clear limits in that respect(but even those limits might be a lie). It's also extremely difficult to distinguish whether some of her more impressive feats are actual hax or illusions. For example, when she supposedly manipulated the boundary between night and day, did she literally make it remain night? Or did she just make it look that way? It's just not clear with a deceptive youkai like Yukari.

I was sure I had read the specifics of the mountain level feats before, but I'm having trouble locating it now(I would appreciate a source on that one). Regardless, that only applies to physical attacks. Their magical attacks could still be stronger or weaker if it can be definitively scaled. Also, there is no reason to scale the vampire's strength off of Suika's or Yuugi's as they are not 'ordinary' oni. They are heavily implied to be far stronger than average oni.

As for Okuu/Utsuho, That probably is a special case. I don't have much to add to that one.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Pretty sure Flande has been stated to be muuuch stronger in Destructive power than Remilia, so Being some tier apart isn't that far fetched.

But since Patchy is 6-B herself, Upgrading Remilia wouldn't be such a stretch, although to what degree is the question. On that note, who scales to Utsuho? Seems like some of the strongest Youkais like Yuuka, Flandre or possibly the protag should scales of her.

 

[DontTalk]

On that note, who scales to Utsuho? Seems like some of the strongest Youkais like Yuuka, Flandre or possibly the protag should scales of her.

Nobody who isn't already ranked higher by different means.

She is an exceptional individual, as a youkai who has part of a god in it. So she doesn't fall in the general groups because of that.

 

[Drac32Drac]

Scaling to Patchy seems quite reasonable.

On a slightly unrelated note, the vampires are supposedly strong enough to "uproot a thousand-year-old tree single-handedly". That is significantly higher lifting strength than Remilia is listed as. Since the type of tree isn't specified, but is easily assumed to be of a size significantly larger than the vampires themselves, it easily puts them at class 100(Flandre is listed higher than that, but Remilia isn't) when considering the extra strength needed to uproot it from the soil, and potentially into class K if you assume the feat refers to an above average sized tree. If there is information that I'm missing as to why this is the case, then I apologize.

 

[Promestein]

Again, I agree on scaling Remilia to Patchouli and scaling Flandre to that due to being superior to the both of them.

 

[Yamatohime]

Well, vampires are physically as strong as oni but not as durable as them. Additionally we need to remember that Patchy (even in her current state) can easily defeat both Remi and Flan with her magic by utilizing their weaknesses to water, sunlight and silver (probably).

But we need to remember that current oni do not care about the power balance in Gensoukyou so they do not included in the power struggle. So probably vampires are as strong as weak oni but not as strong as Suika or Yuugi.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Well breaking big mountain wasn't said to be their maximum, so I don't think we should downgrade them base on that.

Also, yeah Patchy can beat them using weaknesses, but that doesn't really matter in AP scaling.

 

[Drac32Drac]

I wouldn't bet on Patchy defeating Flan unless Patchy got the drop on her. But that's purely opinion based. We've seen depictions of touhou vampire weaknesses before. Sunlight and silver aren't all that impressive. Heck, Remilia partially caught on fire and shrugged it off like she didn't even feel it, completely regenerating the burns almost instantly. The only unknown is 'moving' water, stagnant water does nothing. I don't think that's been protrayed in canon... at least I haven't seen it.

 

[Yamatohime]

The main problem with the power balance is that...

Only few youkais are actually care about it: Tengu, Kappa, probably some individual youkais and humans. Powerhouses like Eintei, Old Hell, Higan, Celestials, Underworld and other do not care about power balance.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Well they are probably closer to 6-B than to 7-B. May I remind you that this tier is for a fodder? Like Remilia >>>>>> Cirno. And Patchy was calced at 6-B herself.

 

[Drac32Drac]

Well, Yuuka is stated to be one of the significant 'powers' involved in youkai polotics at least a few times, and she is all by herself... unless you count her garden.

Actually, while the lunarians might not care about the balance of power... the rabits of Eintei most certainly do(which surprised me)... according to a recent Forbidden Scrollery manga. In that chapter, they mention the Tengu, the Kappa, the Tanuki, the Foxes, and the Rabits vieing for control. Obviously there are others at play as well, but those were specifically mentioned there.

 

[Yamatohime]

Well, acording to Perfect Memento the oni are the strongest and the most undernumbered community (compared to others and possibly its include vampires). Basically even Yuugi can struggle for power with entire SDM alone with ease.

 

[Drac32Drac]

Well, acording to Perfect Memento the oni are the strongest and the most undernumbered community (compared to others and possibly its include vampires). Basically even Yuugi can struggle for power with entire SDM alone with ease.

That's not the point. The point is that they don't participate... therefore they should be excluded from this particular discussion.

edit... You also need to realize that touhou vampires are also considered a subspecies of devil. That is where a lot of their traits that diverge from traditional vampire portrayals originates from... like contracts.

 

[Yamatohime]

I think that SDM is just the strongest vamipre family like Yuugi is the strongest shown oni.

 

[Drac32Drac]

It's certainly possible that there are other vampires in Gensokyo, but even if there are... they clearly aren't working with the SDM. Therefore, for the balance of power discussion, the two vampires are adequate.

 

[Yamatohime]

But with whom they compete? Since for example Celestials are partially interested in Gensoukyou politics but not interfere (like Yuugi). Tengus are probably the most powerful faction though.

 

[Drac32Drac]

You can't forget there exists watchdog factions that strive to ensure the balance remains intact. There's the protagonist faction, as well as the Yakumo clan(yes, motives are difficult to judge, but all evidence thus far points this direction).

This makes it very difficult to judge an entire faction's power. In addition, if one faction gets too strong, there's nothing stopping the remaining factions from messing with that faction's plans... something that frequently happens in canon.

 

[Yamatohime]

Hakurei and Yakumo Alliance probably does not compete for power. Because it posses superior power compared to all fractions combined (probably).

So by far we have these fractions: SDM, Tengu (with Mountain Temple), Human Village, Buddhists and Taosists, probably Yuuka and Yuugi. Who else?

 

[Promestein]

Why is this even relevant to the scaling? We're scaling Remilia and Flandre to Patchouli, not anyone else.

 

[Yamatohime]

Because the current powerscaling is based on factions power level comparison.

 

[Drac32Drac]

The human village does NOT compete for power(at least until we hear more about the Secret History Association). That's the whole point of Gensokyo.

I'm not sure where you're getting that Yuugi is participating in the balance of power. Could you please enlighten me?

Ok, factions(in no particular order)...


We have (for youkai balance of power):

SDM, Tengu, Kappa, Kitsune(foxes), Tanuki, Rabits, Yuuka, and some others that I may be forgetting.


For religious balance of power(yes, it is a separate balance of power):

Hakurei, Moriya, Buddhists, and Taoists.

 

[Yamatohime]

Well, Yuugi is interested in the balance because she likes to fight.

So, Tengu posses the most military might but keep it inside their borders. Kappa is currently unknown power level but probably because of their support Tengu are the most strongest as faction. Kitsunes and Tanuki are wildcards (since there is not real evidence of their power level). Rabbits have minor power but quite powerful "supporters". Yuuka is one-woman army by herself.

I doubt that SDM can compete with Tengu who stalemated oni (when they were at their prime).

 

[Drac32Drac]

Liking to fight isn't the same as struggling for power. I don't think Yuugi counts.

I'm having a hard time seeing it that way... barring a stray Tengu shoutout(Aya), I'm seeing it more along the lines that the average SDM resident(not counting the fairy maids) is well above the average Tengu solely due to the numbers difference. This is the type of argument that the OP likely envisioned when suggesting this method of comparison.

This would put the vampires above the average Tengu and Kappa. We don't know how many Kitsune or Tanuki there are, so we can't judge that one. We know there are LOTS of Rabits, so that's an easy one.

As a further extension, Yuuka would be well above the average high end SDM resident.

 

[Yamatohime]

Well the average Tengu's soldies is probably Momiji's level. I can't remember but Tengu could probalby field around thousands troops. And Aya is actually kind of weak compared to the elders.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Well Aya is seen as strong Af per most Youkais, but to a unknown level.

 

[Drac32Drac]

It's her speed that's devastating. You don't earn the title "Fastest in Gensokyo" for nothing.

Interestingly, Aya herself says that Suika is the strongest youkai. That's probably more of a 'from her point of view' argument, though.

Also, Aya has been known to 'accidentally win' her battles.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Yeah but her power is also huge. Seems like it's a combinaison of both, but her power is definitively what they were talking about.

 

[Yamatohime]

Well, I've read that Suika is the strongest oni but its quite arguable. Aya stated that she is little stronger physically to Momiji but surpass her in sorcery and speed.

Tengu have some sorts of Air Force (Crow Tengu - all comparable to Aya in speed) and Ground Force (Wolf Tengu) as well as special forces.

 

[Drac32Drac]

It's actually kind of interesting that we actually have some loose evidence to place Yuuka from this. Not a lot, but considerably better than nothing.

Yuugi is unquestionably physically stronger than Suika(she said so herself, and oni don't lie). But that doesn't mean anything about who would win a fight, or about raw attack potency.

edit... All crow Tengu are fast, but Aya is faster. It's like comparing Suika or Yuugi to a normal oni. That comparison just doesn't work.

 

[Yamatohime]

Suika probably can withstand Yuugi attacks without problem and could win through superrior durability and stamina.

Edit: PM state that only vampires can compete with Crow Tengu in speed.

 

[Drac32Drac]

Youmu can compete with crow tengu in speed, too. So that can't be accurate.

 

[Yamatohime]

Fanon Youmu maybe... But canon one could compete only in actual combat speed probably.

 

[Drac32Drac]

No, canon Youmu is unbelievably fast in combat.

She doesn't live in Gensokyo though, so there's that.

 

[Yamatohime]

Actually Youma can't keep up with Aya in movement speed for prolonged time. But her dashes are actually faster than Aya's.

 

[Drac32Drac]

Back on track, we have Remilia potentially moving up to what, 6B ish? And if a Yuuka page ever gets put up(I would love to see it), we've deduced a minimum overall rating of at least that with a potentially higher qualifier. Am I following correctly?