Touhou Shinki Scaling

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Bleh. We talked about this some times on this Wiki but it never got to a conclusive end, instead going into explosions and thread-dead-ness.

So, basically, Reimu & Co defeats Shinki fair and square, but apparently, they don't scales to her...? I would like if we could discuss weather or not we can scale Reimu (PC-98) Marisa (PC-98) Yuuka (PC-98) and Mima to Shinki. I have seen a few counter argument but let me counter-counter them so we won't lose any time.

>Shinki was holding back

Doubtful for severals reasons. The Protag completely wrecked her strongest creation, up to tears, previously, and Shinki was aware of this. Not only that but she seemed pretty bent on punishing any of the girls in all the routes, not a situtation in which someone would hold back. And there is the fact that Shinki legit thought she was fighting her equal against Mima, she wouldn't hokd back in these situations.

>The Protag gets one shots and only beats her by dodging everything, which also means Shinki has low tier Dura

Gameplay mechanics. Simply..Game Play mechanics. In the PC-98 games, the "Boss" and "Player" position never makes sense in-story, and some being that were "Boss" before became "Player" later. And with things like PoDD where the players tanks a lot of hits from opposing enemies, the "Player gets one shot, Boss tanks everything" scenrio clearly seems like a simple game play mechanics. It would seem incredibly unfair to deny any scaling just because it is a Bullet Hell game. Also even when the player "Dies" in the game, they are still alive, just KO'd, and this happen after they got hit multiple times.

>The Protag only has beaten her with the Spell Card rule

Well, first of all, the Spell Card rule is only present in the Windows games. Even if we do takes the PC-98 games as in the same continuity, EoSD was the first game using the Spell Card rule, and Mystic Square obviously happened BEFORE said game (With Alice being a child in tha old games and stuff), and most characters who loses seems to directly imply that the Protag is stronger than they are, rather than just being more skilled, so this fight having been done under the spell card rule is unlikely.

>Outlier

Although possible, it's important to note that Reimu clearly grows in power in each installement of the PC-98 era, such as Marisa going off to train her, and the fact that previously, Reimu wasn't able to hurts enemies with her normal attacks, instead having to rely on her Yin-Yang ball to do it. While now, she can hurts them as easily as she could with her Yin-Yang back then.

So, yeah. Either these 4 girls get boosted to 4-B to 2-C or we gets on a logical reasons to not scales them with Shinki.

 

[ImagoDesattrolante]

supported

 

[SomebodyData]

Supported

 

[DontTalk]

Shinki didn´t use anything close to a Solar System level to possibly Universe level+ attack in the whole battle. Neither did she use any reality warping or whichever ability allowed her to create Makai.

That battle by no means was a battle against someone that uses solar system level attacks.

If you don´t think she held back out of whichever reasons, then this is still massive PIS.

 

[ImagoDesattrolante]

Shinki didn´t use anything close to a Solar System level to possibly Universe level+ attack in the whole battle. Neither did she use any reality warping or whichever ability allowed her to create Makai.
That battle by no means was a battle against someone that uses solar system level attacks.

If you don´t think she held back out of whichever reasons, then this is still massive PIS.

This makes a lot of sense, tbh.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Again, the whole battle Shinki wants The Protag out, dead or otherwise. It even came to the point when she started destroying a bit of Makai in the battle. Not using her maximum wouldn't make much sense.

Also, I don't think that because it didn't seemed like a Solar System Level battle that it wasn't one. The scale of a battle doesn't always matters if the scaling really took place, especially if Shinki is nearly blood-lusted.

And about being PIS, Reimu's only other feat is exploding the earth, which is begening of series as shit,

 

[DontTalk]

Well, I don't see proof that the protagonists are stronger than shiki if it was battle in which shinki was defeated without using her full power (aka reality warping etc.). It just does neither imply that the characters would be able to take a attack from shinki at full power, nor that they can dish out that amount of power. In the end I just don´t believe that battle proofs them to be equal or anything.


Edit: Basically the assumption that shinkis energy bullet stuff is that powerful doesn't work well.

 

[Antvasima]

I think that DontTalk makes sense.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Well the fact that a Star Level character could defeat a Solar Sytem one with just dodging doesn't work well either.

Again, I don't see why Shink WOULDN'T have used her full power in a fight other than looks. She saw her greatest creation getting rekted and now a damn crazy plant girl is trying to beat her up.

 

[DontTalk]

Why Shinki wouldn´t I don't know, but that she didn't simply becomes evident by watching the battle. It is nothing too uncommon in fiction that a character didn´t use ability xy to finish of the opponent instantly, that is why PIS is a thing.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

I mean, is there any reasons to think that she DIDN'T uses her full power, apart from the looks of it?

 

[DontTalk]

Do I need a reason except the looks of it? I mean I don't say that the battle looked unimpressive and because of the she was weak. What I am sayin is that she is eniterly capable of completly flattening the whole realm and recreating it from scratch (which is what her ranking is based on) and only released energy balls powerful enough to burn down parts of Makai.

Doesn´t really fit to say she was using solar system to universe level + power.

 

[Ciruno_Fortes_(COB)]

As much as I would love a major boost to the player characters everything Donttalk says is pretty much true. But Saikou's points are also true. At best Shinki didn't destroy everything with her power and Reimu and Marisa and co were at least fast enough to keep up, but not as strong.

 

[Yamatohime]

Judging by Shinki's personality (partially fandom one): even if Shinki could possibly dish out Universe-level attack - she wouldn't because of high possiblity of friendly-fire. Additionnaly is can be possible that Shinki is your good-for-nothing mother-goddess character who is more experienced in creation and she created her wings for battle because of it. Her defeat can be part of her charcter too - she surrendered to avoid more damage to her creations.

 

[Drac32Drac]

I believe there is an argument to had for AP scaling of the other protagonists, though. Shinki's wings were destroyed by each of them. This is in stark contrast to a usual victory. The fact that the four pulled off that feat should at least put them on relatively equal AP at the time. Unless you believe that the protagonists were holding back too.

 

[Yamatohime]

Well, we need to see average time to beat Shinki by each character. =)

But their AP should be comparable without special attacks like YYOrbs or MSpark.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Pretty sure the 98 protagonist scales to each others without that tho

 

[Drac32Drac]

Agreed, that's the part that makes it difficult. But reasonable logical minimums might still be able to be deduced.

 

[Yamatohime]

Nope... Marisa is actually should be weaker compared to Windows era one. =)

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

What are you on about, Marisa scales the heck out of Reimu in PC-98

 

[Yamatohime]

Marisa didn't have her most powerful and trademark attacks in PC-98 era.

 

[Drac32Drac]

Feats of PC98 don't correspond to Windows feats.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

And..? She still takes hits from Reimu and dishes just as much

 

[Yamatohime]

Marisa never won PC-98 Reimu canonicaly so she is not as powerful as Reimu in the long run.

 

[Drac32Drac]

Going toe to toe and not winning is not the same as being multiple tiers below.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

And...? Sure she is not EXACTLY as strong as Reimu, but geez canon Marisa is like country, PC-98 Marsa takes star busting hits.

 

[Yamatohime]

Well, ZUN said the Marisa is still that Marisa. And Marisa said that she was always overhelmed by Reimu. Not going toe to toe via game mechanics.

Can't find who actually defeated Shinki canonicaly.

 

[Drac32Drac]

ZUN said that the characters are canon, but he never EVER said the events/feats/etc... are consistent.

 

[Yamatohime]

And...? Sure she is not EXACTLY as strong as Reimu, but geez canon Marisa is like country, PC-98 Marsa takes star busting hits.

Please, when she got hit with overpowered YYOrb instead of normal Anti-Youkai one?

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

PC-98 is still non-canon. And no, Marisa is not stomped. She loses because of hax that PC-98 Reimu didn't have.

According to ZUN, everyone beats the boss in the games.

 

[Yamatohime]

We're going in circles here. Let's just calculate bare minimum of firepower for them.

 

[Drac32Drac]

We're going in circles here. Let's just calculate bare minimum of firepower for them.

That's all I was suggesting in the first place. XD

 

[Yamatohime]

The first we should found out Mima's species. She is described as an Evil Spirit (basically Ghost) but she claimed that she is just a spirit. What do you think is true?

 

[Drac32Drac]

That is a huge can of worms without a clear answer. She is probably not a 'normal' evil spirit, which is also called vengeful spirit in canon, because she still looks human-like. But, does that alone make her a ghost? I don't think that's enough to say with any certainty, even less so if she has called herself one, recognizing that she is dead, without disappearing(Yuyuko has done so, but there's compelling reason as to why she didn't fade away). Then again, phantoms usually don't have form either, but there are exceptions to that as well such as Murasa. I'd say the exact species is inconclusive.

Also, it's probably irrelevant to the scaling.

 

[Yamatohime]

Actually ghost that are not under Yuyuko or send to Heaven/Hell are Evil Spirits, the souls of those who had lingering affections that turned into lust of vengence. Yuyuko considered one of the strongest ghosts.

Spirits on the other way are immarerial beings that can be worshiped as gods... For example Shikieiki Yamaxanadu is quite a powerful spirit.

 

[Drac32Drac]

And that further makes it inconclusive. However, touhou makes it sound like just about anything can become a god if it's worshipped enough.

 

[Yamatohime]

And that further makes it inconclusive. However, touhou makes it sound like just about anything can become a god if it's worshipped.

Actually if Mima is really an evil spirit (it's special type of ghost)... It makes her weaker compared to Yuyuko since "princess" can beat any ghost into submission...

Yamaxanadu is actually can beat anybody in Gensoukyou (with outskirts like Underworld for example) into submission.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

There is no saying she is weaker than Yuyuko in term of DC, Yuyuko is just a higher rank and has better hax.

And that was a mistranslation, they said it would be futile to debate with the Yama, not that they wouldn't stand a chance.

 

[Yamatohime]

Well, I see that Windows Marisa has three sets of spells: Mima's, Yuuka's and her own.

Yuuka spells are mostly Master Spark variants - in other words Marisa's ultimate spells. Her own spells are basically - active items of sort? So Mima's spells should be her regular ones.

We know that Kaguya was killed by player character (well, canonically Reimu solved IN). So at least Mima's spell set should be 7-B. Add here that Marisa is usually rely on her stars and rainbows spell set I think that Mima should be at least 6-C.

 

[Drac32Drac]

Windows Marisa has plenty more than just Mima's, Yuuka's, and her own spells. She copies them wholesale. You know how Alice has a doll of most, if not all of the people she's met? Same deal with Marisa for spells, though probably not every character's. On that note, if she starts opening gaps, I might start to worry about her.

And again, Windows and PC98 as a whole are not compatible with each other.