Touhou Perception Manipulation Removal

[Angelzewolf]

Disagree. Overall I don't really care about Percept (pretty sure I was even neutral on it back when it was first suggested). But the arguments aren't really convincing me. I can definitely understand the line of logic and I do think most of what Saikou is saying is valid. But Fuji and Aeons just make more sense.

I won't really be commenting much since, again, I don't really care. Both sides seem understandable, I just find myself agreeing more with the people against this thread as opposed to the ones agreeing with it. (by the way, appreciate the breakdown. Without it, I doubt I'd be commenting at all).

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Or maybe neither of them are the direct reason behind this. And that them looking on the past fondly is just required to not go mad due to depression. Them looking at the past fondly doesn't have to have a direct source. It can very easily be just a thing that happened. Overly pessimistic youkai get too sad to do anything so only those who are adapted to living long remains. There is no recursion, you just think that this non-anomalous personality trait must be caused by some physiology of youkai.

I'll just say this

[Youkai see times more slowly] thus [They can look more fondly on the past] thus [They can live for long without a mental breakdown]

Makes less sense than and requires more assumptions than

[Youkai can look more fondly on the past] thus [They can live for long without a mental breakdown]

There is no recursion. There is no verse-wide assumptions. There is no fighting 20 years of portraying Youkai without this ability. There is no overly literal interpretations of text.

All of this relies on assuming that we are not given an explanation for why youkai view the past more fondly. But the reasoning is in the very opening of the passage; "Time flows much more slowly for youkai than it does for humans. Unsurprisingly, we have much fonder memories of times past". It is very obviously treating a youkai's views of the past as a consequence of their perception of time. Do you have any reason why we should reject this explanation, when it is the only one present in the text? You keep saying that it is merely metaphorical, but nothing you've provided has actually been supported in the text; It's all headcanon based on what you believe would make more sense, canon content be damned.

I'm saying that Spell Cards prevents her from spamming time stop. Spell Card rules don't make a natural slowed perception go to 'normal' by itself. Unless you say Youkai can control this, which isn't supported.

And what about Kaguya getting her ass kicked by Mokou centuries prior to the SCR even existing?

Also... Lmao about characters not using SCR to "limit" passive abilities. That is something that they are quite infamous for being able to do, actually. There is a reason we give power modification to every spell card user, which by default extends to the majority of youkai.

Most of this is irrelevant to Gods in their daily life. Their concept hax is inherently limited and they lost most of their powers when being named. Even then, this is more commonly supported and is based on less guesswork than this upgrade.

Though if you really insist on this being inconsistent too, we can just downgrade gods as well.

...No? They still have conceptual manipulation as avatars. Check any god profile. The reasoning behind names being type 1 concepts stems from one passage, and it's similarly important to a significant number of characters. There's no reason why one is better than the other in this regard.

Also way to misrepresent my point, I meant that something being mentioned once isn't grounds to say it's wrong. Actually, wasn't a significant amount of the universal upgrade that you made based on "one-off statements that never show up again but have huge implications for the majority of the cast"? Specifically the stuff about infinite Senkai and Heaven and the Netherworld being larger than Hell. Seems a little hypocritical to say one off statements can't be used.

Because it's a common figure of speech. Time feeling slow for people when they're bored or otherwise is just, a thing that's said by people even in real life. You can easily say that, for example, time goes slower for a turtle than a human, since it lives for much longer. Assuming automatically that this MUST be some supernatural ability, especially when this text talks more about psychology and outlook on the past than physiology of Youkai, is just getting your vision tainted by VSB to be quite honest. Authors don't try to fit feats and abilities in every quote they say.

It being a matter of a youkai's psychology is not necessarily a debunk when it is established that a youkai's state of mind can have very real impacts on their material reality. Even then, this is a matter of cause and effect. Youkai do indeed view the past differently than humans, but you seem fixated on the idea that that is the cause of them supposedly perceiving time more slowly; But as demonstrated above, the text is structured in such a way that it makes those two things the effect of them perceiving time more slowly. What you're suggesting, while it could be the case, is not what is stated in the text. Can you please show me a passage that helps prove your interpretation, rather than just arbitrarily claim it "makes more sense" in spite of the text itself?

(Also I'd like to add that this is a fanmade translation. The specific wording is less important than the overall message if we don't have direct confirmation that this specific wording is used in Japanese)

The wording conveys the message. You cannot separate the two. If you really want me to, I can do some digging to see what the original japanese text says in greater detail. But ultimately, I don't think it matters since the way words are written, such as their tone, context, and order, can change the meaning of a passage. It's silly to pretend the two are disconnected.

I'm not saying do not use translated material. I'm saying that if your interpretation of an interpretation of the original Japanese line goes against the more concrete and obvious meaning of this quote, then maaaaybe it's not a good interpretation.

What exactly are we going against? What evidence is there of your interpretation as opposed to mine? Can you please provide scans or translations supporting your point? You say that we go against the "obvious meaning", but nowhere is that meaning stated or implied. It is becoming increasingly evident that this downgrade hinges less on the current interpretation being wrong and more on the assumption that something could be wrong with it. But until you show what that thing is and stop relying on "my interpretation just makes more sense", I have no reason to believe you, nor should anyone else.

Hell the current interpretation is still non-literal. If we took it entirely literally, we'd assume they're physically slowed down due to time flowing less fast for them. But you all decided to interpret it as "Only their perception is slowed, not their entire being". Clearly showing you're willing to take a more metaphorical approach to a statement if the literal interpretation makes no sense. Yet you all insist that this statement cannot mean anything other than literally slower perception.

No, because it is in reference to a youkai's personal flow of time. Them being physically slowed would imply they are passively altering the flow of time in a localized area, but that is contradictory to how it is specific to individual youkai; Thus, it is a matter of personal perspective and not anything affecting reality outside of that perspective. This is also supported by how youkai are established to affect their personal traits based on their personal thoughts and desires.

Also last I checked I don't think we give speed values based on what flow of time someone operates under anyways, so this point is moot. If we did that then every type 4/5 acausal character would need a second look at their speed section.

Also I disagree with the notion that only Youkai would be bothered by being overwhelmed by negative experiences. If even a real human only remembered the bad part of the past, they'd be quickly overwhelmed by feelings that everything sucks. There is a reason why Nostalgia is a thing humans evolved, among other things. And the text clearly states that ALL living beings (which specifically includes Youkai too) need to have this outlook if they want to live long. Youkai just have it more, due to their much longer lifespan.

I don't think that was the point. The idea was that youkai, based on their more mentally-focused existence, are more bothered by it than normal (especially since a youkai's mind is the core of its existence), not that everyone else is unbothered by it.

 

[Jinsye]

Also way to misrepresent my point, I meant that something being mentioned once isn't grounds to say it's wrong. Actually, wasn't a significant amount of the universal upgrade that you made based on "one-off statements that never show up again but have huge implications for the majority of the cast"? Specifically the stuff about infinite Senkai and Heaven and the Netherworld being larger than Hell. Seems a little hypocritical to say one off statements can't be used.

You're missing the point there. The universal statements and conceptual manipulation is different to this, because it does not literally PASSIVELY take effect on everyone's lives.

If you have conceptual manipulation, you can function just fine normally.
If you view the world in complete slow motion (and not your body mind you), you absolutely cannot function normally, you think that it would have more of an effect on the youkai's lives other than 'Well we remember things more fondly.'

The fact that no Youkai ever has even noted that this takes any form of effect on their lives is already grounds enough to say that that she doesn't mean that they literally view everything at 0.25x speed.

...Living long also doesn't make you appreciate the past. That's an equally silly interpretation. They're both kinda weird and nonsensical, but since those are the only two options we're given, we go with what is actually in the text.

It does though. You obviously haven't gotten old, but being older does mean that you appreciate your past memories far more fondly. Something as simple as playing ball in the grass may not be a great memory to you now, but you may appreciate it many years into the future. That's what nostalgia is. I am fairly certain this is what Yukari means.

"In my faint recollection of what happened sixty years ago, I can remember asking humans the same thing at the time. I can't remember anything about how they responded. I seem to remember being more satisfied with their answers, though." -The passage before the 'time moves slowly' statement

She remembers being happy with the answers in regards to the reason as to why the flowers bloom once every sixty years. But she says that it's probably just nostalgia from many years ago. Nostalgia can cloud your memories to make things seem better than what they actually are. Nostalgia comes with age, but not with perceiving the world in slow motion.

 

[Jibz]

Another paragraph war on a Tohou thread. What’s new?

 

[Zencha9]

i pretty much agree with the removal for the reasons stated above

 

[ShadowWarrior1999]

I agree with Jinsye and Saikou. Remove perception manipulation.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

You're missing the point there. The universal statements and conceptual manipulation is different to this, because it does not literally PASSIVELY take effect on everyone's lives.

If you have conceptual manipulation, you can function just fine normally.
If you view the world in complete slow motion (and not your body mind you), you absolutely cannot function normally, you think that it would have more of an effect on the youkai's lives other than 'Well we remember things more fondly.'

The fact that no Youkai ever has even noted that this takes any form of effect on their lives is already grounds enough to say that that she doesn't mean that they literally view everything at 0.25x speed.

I have explained this multiple times. It does have an effect, in the sense that it causes them to live longer. Perceiving time slowly means they remember the past fondly, which is necessary for a long life. That is what is very clearly portrayed in the text.

Them not mentioning that they perceive time slowly is also not a debunk. A character does not need to make self-referential statements about their state of being for certain physiological traits to be a thing. Also, Yukari quite literally is noting that this has an effect on their lives. That's the point of the passage.

It does though. You obviously haven't gotten old, but being older does mean that you appreciate your past memories far more fondly. Something as simple as playing ball in the grass may not be a great memory to you now, but you may appreciate it many years into the future. That's what nostalgia is. I am fairly certain this is what Yukari means.

"In my faint recollection of what happened sixty years ago, I can remember asking humans the same thing at the time. I can't remember anything about how they responded. I seem to remember being more satisfied with their answers, though." -The passage before the 'time moves slowly' statement

She remembers being happy with the answers in regards to the reason as to why the flowers bloom once every sixty years. But she says that it's probably just nostalgia from many years ago. Nostalgia can cloud your memories to make things seem better than what they actually are. Nostalgia comes with age, but not with perceiving the world in slow motion.

Again, not what the text says. This is a valid conclusion in the context of it being the only reason we're given... But it's not. "Time flows much more slowly for youkai than it does for humans. Unsurprisingly, we have much fonder memories of times past" This is the reasoning given; The latter is a consequence of the former. Do you have any reason why we should use alternative explanations, when the text already presents an explicit explanation?

Also, it seems strange to me that longevity making you remember things fondly somehow makes more sense in this context, because we know of several immortal characters who obviously do not remember their pasts fondly in spite of their age. Mokou is a very obvious example, suffering from depression and nihilism for most of her appearances prior to AoCF. Her age clearly had no effect on her outlook on life.

 

[Jinsye]

I have explained this multiple times. It does have an effect, in the sense that it causes them to live longer. Perceiving time slowly means they remember the past fondly, which is necessary for a long life. That is what is very clearly portrayed in the text.

Them not mentioning that they perceive time slowly is also not a debunk. A character does not need to make self-referential statements about their state of being for certain physiological traits to be a thing. Also, Yukari quite literally is noting that this has an effect on their lives. That's the point of the passage.

And my point is that effect isn't relevant enough. Viewing the world has 0.25x speed has far more consequences than simply remembering the past fondly. Interacting with humans would be abnormally painful if you have slow-mo vision, as would something as simple as pouring tea, or even flying from place to place. Yet, at no point ever in the series, are these major consequences brought up. The only explanation you have is that "it has an effect on their lives" and giving a minor effect that ties into their immortality without addressing any other major consequences of having slow motion vision.

Again, not what the text says. This is a valid conclusion in the context of it being the only reason we're given... But it's not. "Time flows much more slowly for youkai than it does for humans. Unsurprisingly, we have much fonder memories of times past" This is the reasoning given; The latter is a consequence of the former. Do you have any reason why we should use alternative explanations, when the text already presents an explicit explanation?

Arguing specific English lessons on Japanese grammar feels fruitless to me. I am sure the translators did a very good job, but things don't tend to perfectly go over one-to-one in between English and Japanese.

But regardless, your point seems to heavily rely on ignoring the entire context of the story. From what I can see, Yukari is pretty clearly stating that her nostalgia is the effect of her 'seeing time for slowly' and the statement about fonder memories of time's past is more clarification on the nostalgia.

Nostalgia as a concept comes with age, that's the basic implication. There is no world where you get nostalgia from time moving slowly. The text makes much more sense as a metaphor for a long life over literal slow motion vision because then the idea of nostalgia actually fits within the context.

Also, it seems strange to me that longevity making you remember things fondly somehow makes more sense in this context, because we know of several immortal characters who obviously do not remember their pasts fondly in spite of their age. Mokou is a very obvious example, suffering from depression and nihilism for most of her appearances prior to AoCF. Her age clearly had no effect on her outlook on life.

Yukari's blatantly not talking about them though. You seem to have tieritis in which every single passage has to be an explanation on a race-wide ability. Yukari is literally talking about flowers and why they only bloom every sixty years. What reason does she have to bring up Mokou, or any other depressed youkai that has existed at some point when they are not relevant to the conversation. It's more likely she's stating on how youkai/immortals should be instead of how youkai are.



As for total votes. There are four disagrees and five agrees, with one of the agrees being staff. I'd like more staff to comment on this if it's such a controversial matter.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

And my point is that effect isn't relevant enough. Viewing the world has 0.25x speed has far more consequences than simply remembering the past fondly. Interacting with humans would be abnormally painful if you have slow-mo vision, as would something as simple as pouring tea, or even flying from place to place. Yet, at no point ever in the series, are these major consequences brought up. The only explanation you have is that "it has an effect on their lives" and giving a minor effect that ties into their immortality without addressing any other major consequences of having slow motion vision.

A "minor effect"? I would hardly call living for hundreds of years minor. Even then, we know that the consequences of that longevity do affect youkai; Rinnosuke outright says he's unable to feel welcome in the human village because of it. And even then, you have to keep in mind that this is just naturally how youkai are. Of course they wouldn't be bothered by it, when it's the only way of living they've ever known. It's not like they experienced a normal flow of time and then had it slowed; To them, the world has always moved in slow motion, so it doesn't bother them. Imagine a person who is colorblind from birth who might not even be aware of their disability or have it impact their life much until they meet someone who isn't, compared to someone who suddenly becomes colorblind halfway through their life would have to adapt to that disability. You seem to be under the impression that a youkai's altered perception would make them similar to the latter, when they'd be more like the former.

Arguing specific English lessons on Japanese grammar feels fruitless to me. I am sure the translators did a very good job, but things don't tend to perfectly go over one-to-one in between English and Japanese.

In that case, can you please show me how, if at all, the original Japanese text contradicts my claims? This is a very bold claim to make, so I would like to see evidence of it and not just an assumption that something was lost in translation. We do not base donwgrades on something theoretically being wrong.

But regardless, your point seems to heavily rely on ignoring the entire context of the story. From what I can see, Yukari is pretty clearly stating that her nostalgia is the effect of her 'seeing time for slowly' and the statement about fonder memories of time's past is more clarification on the nostalgia.

Nostalgia as a concept comes with age, that's the basic implication. There is no world where you get nostalgia from time moving slowly. The text makes much more sense as a metaphor for a long life over literal slow motion vision because then the idea of nostalgia actually fits within the context.

Yes, that's the point. The way her perception of the world differs from humans affects her philosophy on life, which by extension ensures a long life. However, while nostalgia coming with age would make more sense in general, we do not base revisions based solely on what is logical; We place greater consideration on what is actually shown and stated in the verse itself.

To reiterate, none of the alternate interpretations presented are inherently wrong. I think in a vacuum they'd obviously make more sense than perception manip. The problem is that none of those interpretations acknowledge the actual, canonical explanation for youkai longevity/nostalgia/whatever. So could you please either A. Prove why my interpretation is wrong, or B. Show me where in the text your interpretation is stated or implied?

Yukari's blatantly not talking about them though. You seem to have tieritis in which every single passage has to be an explanation on a race-wide ability. Yukari is literally talking about flowers and why they only bloom every sixty years. What reason does she have to bring up Mokou, or any other depressed youkai that has existed at some point when they are not relevant to the conversation. It's more likely she's stating on how youkai/immortals should be instead of how youkai are.

I didn't say she had to. I'm saying if long-lived things are predisposed to seeing the past positively, why is this never something that is reconciled in other passages? You place a lot of emphasis on the perception manip interpretation isn't supported by anything else in the text, so why is your interpretation better when it is not only a one-off statement, but is also contradictory with various characters across the series?

Again, it didn't need to be in that specific passage. If we saw numerous other characters of old age reflecting on the past in a similar manner, your interpretation would hold much more weight. But we don't see that, and we in fact see the opposite; That alone makes me doubt the interpretation you gave.

EDIT: If you're also assuming that she wasn't talking about anyone beyond humans and youkai, please read the following excerpt again; "This is probably because humans and youkai, indeed all living beings, live out their lives in a series of harsh experiences". No reason to assume anyone is excluded by that statement.

 

[Kirbonic_Pikmin]

I have nothing to currently add because Fujiwara is currently giving the best arguments, so I disagree with the ability removal fra.

 

[Theglassman12]

Agree with the removal, this doesn't really imply any perception manipulation, just that they live longer and can remember the past better.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Nobody's arguing against that. But the reason given for their longevity and memories of the past is stated to be the way they experience time.

 

[Theglassman12]

Yeah, they experience time differently than mortals cause they live forever, that's not really perception manipulation in any way. By that logic every Type 1 immortal being has perception manipulation cause they view the past differently than mortals.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

...No? Them perceiving time differently causes their longevity, not the other way around. The experience time slower than humans --> They have fonder memories of the past --> Fond memories of the past are necessary for a long life, so that's why youkai live longer. The "unsurprisingly" in the statement is clearly treating their memories as a side effect of their different perception of time.

 

[Sir_Ovens]

Can someone summarise the points please?

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Can someone summarise the points please?

Arguments against perception manipulation, as far as I can tell. These are very abridged:

1. The text could be more likely interpreted as "youkai view time differently than humans because they live longer and have fonder memories of the past".

2. Youkai regularly lose to, and get hit by attacks from, characters without perception manipulation. They also still get blitzed by characters without it.

3. This is a one-off statement, and there is nothing else indicating that youkai perceive time differently. This would make normal interaction impossible, and youkai would be suffering constantly because the world would always be moving in slow motion to them.

4. This isn't even necessarily manipulating perception.

And my counterpoints:

1. While that interpretation is more likely in a vacuum, it is also not what the text states. It says "Time flows much more slowly for youkai than it does for humans. Unsurprisingly, we have much fonder memories of times past", which shows that their memories (and thus their longevity) are a result of their perception of time, not the other way around.

2. Perception manip doesn't make you immune to getting hit or losing, and it is also explicitly not a speed amp. A character with perception manip can still be hit by attacks that are faster than them, or be unable to dodge if there are too many attacks (which is often the case in Touhou, a bullet hell). This isn't even including other factors besides speed in a fight, like skill, AP, or durability.

3. It being a one-off statement has little to do with its validity, especially since the only real contradiction is making an NLF out of perception manip. Also, youkai probably wouldn't even notice the way their perception differs from humans, since this is just how they naturally perceive time; Like how a colorblind person doesn't know they're colorblind until someone points it out to them. They wouldn't be bothered by it since this is just how they live their life from the moment they're created to the day they die.

4. I'm aware of this, but perception manipulation was the best option. If there's a better one, please let me know.

And 5. If characters with longevity naturally view the past more fondly due to their longevity, why do immortals like Mokou have a nihilistic and depressed outlook on life?

 

[Sir_Ovens]

Alright I've seen the scan and can conclusively say, even without the points about dodging and whatnot, the context is literally just "We have fond memories of the past because if we don't, we will spend our very long lives being very miserable".

Everything else just falls apart once you realize that they're not even attributing any special power or whatnot. They're literally just explaining how a positive state of mind is needed when one lives so long. That is the whole context of the scan. I don't know how one is able to pull out a feat from that when nothing relating to actual physical perception is being mentioned.

 

[Malomtek]

Agree with OP and Saikou FRA.

Still won't voice my thoughts on this, but this one specific part bothers me:

You do realize this dialogue was translated over and over again by a large community that's dedicated to translating Touhou stuff until it sounded accurate and good enough, right? We might as well scrap the entire verse since not only does its scaling rely on fanmade translations, but literally everything else, since it's a Japanese franchise that has very rarely gotten anything officialy translated and sold overseas.

And here's me, remembering when a relatively prominent someone in the Touhou Wiki Discord said that there's a whole lot of translations on it that need to be seriously redone. Considering that the Touhou Wiki is were most of the scans for these passages are being sourced from...

Just because a fan translation was (supposedly) done "over and over again" doesn't mean it necessarily has to be accepted as "accurate" and "good enough".

And no, you don't have to throw out the whole verse just because a lot of the currently "prominent" (really, copypasted) fan translations might be off. Just get better translations/translators. This isn't some Masadaverse situation or anything like that. The raw Japanese text is still there, and readily available online. There aren't any obscure or archaic languages being used. It should be rather straightforward to get new, more accurate translations if one so desires.

 

[Sir_Ovens]

Agree with OP and Saikou FRA.

And here's me, remembering when a relatively prominent someone in the Touhou Wiki Discord said that there's a whole lot of translations on it that need to be redone entirely. Considering that the Touhou Wiki is were most of the scans for this stuff are being sourced from...

Just because a fan translation was (supposedly) done "over and over again" doesn't mean it necessarily has to be accepted as "accurate" and "good enough".

And no, you don't have to throw out the whole verse just because a lot of the currently "prominent" (really, copypasted) fan translations might be off. Just get better translations/translators. This isn't some Masadaverse situation or anything like that. The raw Japanese text is still there, and readily available online. There aren't any obscure or archaic languages being used. It should be rather straightforward to get new, more accurate translations if one so desires.

My brother in christ, were you not threadbanned?

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Alright I've seen the scan and can conclusively say, even without the points about dodging and whatnot, the context is literally just "We have fond memories of the past because if we don't, we will spend our very long lives being very miserable".

Everything else just falls apart once you realize that they're not even attributing any special power or whatnot. They're literally just explaining how a positive state of mind is needed when one lives so long. That is the whole context of the scan. I don't know how one is able to pull out a feat from that when nothing relating to actual physical perception is being mentioned.

???

 

[Malomtek]

My brother in christ, were you not threadbanned?

I'm not. This is literally my first post in this thread.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Agree with OP and Saikou FRA.

And here's me, remembering when a relatively prominent someone in the Touhou Wiki Discord said that there's a whole lot of translations on it that need to be redone entirely. Considering that the Touhou Wiki is were most of the scans for this stuff are being sourced from...

Just because a fan translation was (supposedly) done "over and over again" doesn't mean it necessarily has to be accepted as "accurate" and "good enough".

And no, you don't have to throw out the whole verse just because a lot of the currently "prominent" (really, copypasted) fan translations might be off. Just get better translations/translators. This isn't some Masadaverse situation or anything like that. The raw Japanese text is still there, and readily available online. There aren't any obscure or archaic languages being used. It should be rather straightforward to get new, more accurate translations if one so desires.

Dude uh

We're not retranslating the entire verse from the ground up lmao. For example, the majority of stuff from the manga has no relation to the wiki translations. Also, thpatch exists and has the most up-to-date translations, so it's not like game stuff is inaccessible.

There's also a site with more accurate Hifuu translations, which I could also use. But basically all this amounts to is double checking translations when called into question (and even then, only for a small part of the verse as a whole), not doing a monumental amount of work that nobody here can realistically accomplish.

 

[Sir_Ovens]

Yeah the unsurprisingly part just affirms the statement that time flows more slowly for Youkai. However, the basis of time flowing slowly comes from the statement later that they have trauma and fond memories. Without the fond memories they will only have trauma. That is not a statement of physical prowess, that is literally a statement about a state of mind.

 

[Sir_Ovens]

I'm not. This is literally my first post in this thread.

You have the wiki equivalent of a restraining order. I don't know the details of your ban, but you're not allowed to be in the same thread as Fujiwara as far as I know.

 

[Malomtek]

Dude uh

We're not retranslating the entire verse from the ground up lmao. For example, the majority of stuff from the manga has no relation to the wiki translations. Also, thpatch exists and has the most up-to-date translations, so it's not like game stuff is inaccessible.

I'm not asking you to "retranslate" everything yourself. My response wasn't even directed towards you, but to the guy who said that if we casted doubts on fan translations of Touhou media, then we'd have to throw the whole verse out or something like that.

It should be relatively easy to find new/better translations of something without having to do it all yourself.

You have the wiki equivalent of a restraining order. I don't know the details of your ban, but you're not allowed to be in the same thread as Fujiwara as far as I know.

That's not true anymore, and you can ask other staff for confirmation on that. It was really that neither of us could be directly involved in 2hu threads, but that temporary rule ended already.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Yeah the unsurprisingly part just affirms the statement that time flows more slowly for Youkai. However, the basis of time flowing slowly comes from the statement later that they have trauma and fond memories. Without the fond memories they will only have trauma. That is not a statement of physical prowess, that is literally a statement about a state of mind.

Would the "unsurprisingly" not instead be an indication of cause and effect though (ie; I knocked over a glass of water, so unsurprisingly the floor got wet)? Nothing in the text really indicates that them living long or having fond memories is what causes their altered view of time, and I'm really curious where people keep getting that interpretation.

Also, a youkai's mental state does in fact affect their material reality, so I wouldn't say this statement being about their state of mind changes much, since their state of mind quite literally dictates their whole existence.

You have the wiki equivalent of a restraining order. I don't know the details of your ban, but you're not allowed to be in the same thread as Fujiwara as far as I know.

I don't think that was ever officially the case, unfortunately. The 2-C thread not long ago was proof of that.

I'm not asking you to "retranslate" everything yourself. My response wasn't even directed towards you, but to the guy who said that if we casted doubts on fan translations of Touhou media, then we'd have to throw the whole verse out or something like that.

It should be relatively easy to find new/better translations of something without having to do it all yourself.

I already said we have access to better translations, but that doesn't extend to literally everything. I can dig for alternate translations from other sites and see what they say, but all I'm saying is, don't expect miracles or an instant solution.

 

[Harith0cell]

Agree via saikou reason.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Yeah doesn't seem like there are any alternate translations of this particular passage. There's one on the fanon wiki, but that's a word-for-word copy of the other wiki's translation.

Here's the full original text of that specific passage though, if needed. And here's the full story in the original Japanese text.

　それは、時間が見せる錯覚だろうか。我々妖怪に流れる時間は、人間の間で流れる時間より非常にゆっくりと流れる。それでもやはり、少しずつ記憶の中の過去は美化していくのである。それは人間であれ妖怪であれ、あらゆる生き物にとって、生きていく事は辛いことの積み重ねだからである。過去を美化出来ていないと「あの時はもっと悪かった、それに比べれば今は幾許か良い」という諦めの念が支配するようになり、生き物は悪い方へ進んでしまうだろう。過去が美化していく事は、生き物が長く生きるために必要な事であり、これを持ち合わせず何時までも過去の悪かった所しか見ていない者には未来がないに等しい。

Honestly if we're leaving this up to translations, don't we have a thread for that? This isn't a super long bit of text I think.

 

[Malomtek]

I don't think that was ever officially the case, unfortunately. The 2-C thread not long ago was proof of that.

"Unfortunately", huh?

I already said we have access to better translations, but that doesn't extend to literally everything. I can dig for alternate translations from other sites and see what they say, but all I'm saying is, don't expect miracles or an instant solution.

And that's fine, because I expect neither "miracles" nor "instant solutions" to any of these things.

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

... Huh, I didn't know that this thread was a thing until now. Also, @Jinsye, thank you for saying the points that made me disagree with Perception Manip when it came up in its 2hu CRT, but couldn't properly put it into words. BTW, am neutral, but am leaning towards agreeing with this CRT, myself.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

And that's fine, because I expect neither "miracles" nor "instant solutions" to any of these things.

Should've specified no solutions at all because I'm broke as shit, can't pay translators, and don't speak Japanese.

I think automatically assuming all translations from the wiki are bad and make feats invalid is a bit sus; Some of them are obviously fine, like statements of infinite size clearly using 'mugen'. It's a case by case thing, and I'd rather only assume incorrect information when we have reason to.

Anyways, I'll throw the passage into the translation thread and see what happens idk

 

[Sir_Ovens]

Also, a youkai's mental state does in fact affect their material reality, so I wouldn't say this statement being about their state of mind changes much, since their state of mind quite literally dictates their whole existence.

Ok but this just validates my point? She's saying that Youkai are temperamental, not that they literally affect the reality around them with their minds. She's even referencing Zen, as in the state of mind that one achieves with inner peace.

 

[ÆONS]

Changed my stance to neutral for now.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Ok but this just validates my point? She's saying that Youkai are temperamental, not that they literally affect the reality around them with their minds. She's even referencing Zen, as in the state of mind that one achieves with inner peace.

...No, the text demonstrates that a youkai's state of mind, if absent, can quite literally erase them from existence. While it is technically a state of "zen", for a youkai, that's no different than death due to their more mentally focused nature.

Basically, if a youkai stops thinking, they deny their own existence, which shows that their state of mind affects their physical state of being and the way they interact with the world.

 

[Sir_Ovens]

...No, the text demonstrates that a youkai's state of mind, if absent, can quite literally erase them from existence. While it is technically a state of "zen", for a youkai, that's no different than death due to their more mentally focused nature.

Basically, if a youkai stops thinking, they deny their own existence, which shows that their state of mind affects their physical state of being and the way they interact with the world.

I'm going to have to see a feat of a Youkai being erased from existence after not thinking. That's the only way you can prove it's literal in this sense. Hell, I'd take any feat of a Youkai's thoughts affecting anything in a tangible way.

 

[ÆONS]

...No, the text demonstrates that a youkai's state of mind, if absent, can quite literally erase them from existence. While it is technically a state of "zen", for a youkai, that's no different than death due to their more mentally focused nature.

Basically, if a youkai stops thinking, they deny their own existence, which shows that their state of mind affects their physical state of being and the way they interact with the world.

But that is just with themselves concering their existence specifically, not with their place in reality or them controlling it at any level. I could just be missing something in all this, but I don't see how it implies they can affect material reality through these ways.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

I'm going to have to see a feat of a Youkai being erased from existence after not thinking. That's the only way you can prove it's literal in this sense. Hell, I'd take any feat of a Youkai's thoughts affecting anything in a tangible way.

Give me a minute to find some, I thought this scan would've been enough considering it says ridding themselves of their desires denies their existence.

 

[Sir_Ovens]

Give me a minute to find some, I thought this scan would've been enough considering it says ridding themselves of their desires denies their existence.

The scan is featless. Without proper context it just sounds like figure of speech.

 

[Malomtek]

Hell, I'd take any feat of a Youkai's thoughts affecting anything in a tangible way.

Would a simple usage of a youkai's special ability/magical powers/ki manipulation count, or are you thinking of something more in line with reality warping or "subjective reality"? Just asking for clarification.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

The scan is featless. Without proper context it just sounds like figure of speech.

I mean there is Koishi, who sealed off her conscious mind and has NEP off of that. She's the character being referenced in this scan, which also states that the kind of mental emptiness she achieved is one of formlessness as well, which should obviously be NEP. So she technically got "erased", but she moreso just falls into the category of nonexistent characters who have their NEP because they kept living after being erased, rather than being erased and dying.

idk I'm trying to look for more explanations of her NEP since her profile never had scans for it :/