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Bardock gets his shit pushed in lol
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Topaz's Stats Equal Tournament- Unconventional Characters Edition! (16/16) (FULL)
- Thread starter Topaz404
- Start date
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"I like your deck. I think I am going to TAKE IT."
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Like I said, Mira has a decent match up against people who try to steal her stuff
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She however does not have an answer to Rafaam instant kills or have a direct way to kill him immediately lolLike I said, Mira has a decent match up against people who try to steal her stuff
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What instant kills does he have? I don't see much in the profile (and his first fight was kinda anticlimactic so that doesn't tell me much lmao)
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Time Rip (Instant kill via time manip) and SEVERAL warlock abilities that let him sacrifice allies he summons to kill an enemy
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What stops Mira from dodging it or reflecting the damage?
How do those work?
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it spawning on her, and the fact Rafaam resists all of his own shit except for stealing... unforunately Rafaam is magic or pure manifestations of disorder or other specific shit, so none of his BS can be stolen by Mira due to verse equalization.
Or, alternatively, Mira's just dead while Rafaam can ABSOLUTELY live without the bandages until he makes more assuming the damage reflection still hits him.
Rafaam sacrifices an imp or some shit, and in return for it's life Mira is deleted! This is homing fuckery that won't stop until she's dead.
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How? I tried looking it up and all I found was a card showing some bigass hands touching someone who clearly doesn't like it.
Dodging bigass hands doesn't seem that difficult.
I don’t think I understand what you're saying. He doesn't resist power absorption.
Why would Mira be dead while he's alive if she reflects the damage back onto him?
Yeah I get that much, I mean how does her life get deleted? I don't see death manipulation in his profile so what does he do to delete her?
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That's the card in-game, the effect spawns on the character it's used on.
Prove her Power Absorption works on magic or the pure manifestation of disorder. Rafaam can also copy powers from the soul and energy, so he can actually copy borrowed power.
Because Rafaam doesn't need a physical body to live or fight. He's an ethereal, it might be uncomfortable to live outside of the bandages, it is nowhere NEAR impossible.
Unspecified dura neg, the hardest kind to resist
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Is there any video of the ability that I could use for reference?
Wdym by magic? Magic is a very vague umbrella term for supernatural abilities. Basically everything Mira has ever used her absorption on would qualify as "magic". For example sages wisdom uses spells that manipulate the fundamental forces of the universe, Garuda and the Magician also use spells that affect time and space, and Mira could absorb all of them.
Why would that require some special interaction to affect? If it's AE or something similar that needs a specific type of interaction then it's restricted by the tournament rules.
And wouldn't affecting stuff like type 3 concepts and type 2 info be enough?
Miras own BP is pretty doodoo so that's alright. And her wifi summoned ones are specifically summoned to counter incoming danger so it also wouldn't be an issue.
Oh okay, makes sense. But why would that harm Mira? If the attack gets reflected, it doesn't damage her
Ah yes my favorite.
Technically Mira can pop up 100 million "true selfs" so killing one wouldn't really help until he kills her over 100m times.
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F&G means?
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- Thread starter
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Fun and Games- the thread we're on
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No worries, we are all having fun, though I do wonder what happened, when the better debaters, from Tensura come...
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Not exactly a popular card, basically shadows appear and delete what it's used on.
I'm talking pure mana/MP magic. Arcane, to be specific. For shit like this, there's unspecified, magic, natural, and then the specifics. If you can't prove that it can absorb that thing, it's not gonna work on that thing, for instance, Pokémon has the benefit of having a lot of different kinds of powers, so when it's copying something, unless it's straight up esoteric like CM or Info2, it's probably gonna work, and lo and behold, WoW and as such Hearthstone is similar.
No Limits Fallacy is what we go by. It's the pure manifestation of disorder, unless you can prove Mira can copy or absorb something similar, it ain't gonna work. Also Fel tends to murder people who absorb it, so uh... REALLY shitty idea to absorb Rafaam's warlock abilities, which would happen if she does somehow manage to absorb Rafaam's physical form.
You'd have to prove those encompass what we're on about here, more leeway is given to things like that, yes, but unless it's literally Warhammer "Aethyr is everything" Fantasy, there's still things it can't copy.
I mean those would sort of fall to Mira's own shit unless she resists all of her own shit.
You'd then have to prove it works every time, because Rafaam has no issues with just doing it again because he's pissed
Good thing Rafaam has infinite stamina and resources, huh?
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Okay but that's just the effect of the card being successful, not the mechanic by which it's used.
If there's no video of the ability actually being used and the card shows hands touching someone then I really don't see any reason to assume it works completely without any sort of contact.
Why would "pure mana" have resistance to absorption? If there's none then it's like saying "prove Rafaams hax would work on Mira specifically. If there's no evidence it works specifically on Mira then it's not gonna work".
That sentence is a loaded question which presupposes that mana/Mira have some sort of resistance that you need to counter, despite that fact not being stated anywhere.
What does Pokémon have to do with the conversation? I'm confused.
Why would being "pure manifestation of disorder" grant resistance to absorption? The only reason I can think of is if it was AE but again, that would be restricted here.
How does it do so?
Basic borrowed powers do the same. Garuda was actively putting Fanimers life in danger, and Hojosa murdered Ilpyos father and grandfather even just accidentally like that and yet Greed could absorb it.
So the mechanics of killing here would be pretty important.
Even LM, cm3 and im2 would have been restricted by the rules of the tournament so if it's even more abstract than those then it's definitely restricted.
What?
Why would it suddenly start failing? Why would you assume Miras abilities sometimes just randomly don't work?
I mean yeah main point is that it would give Mira a ton of time to kill him before she runs out of lifes.
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Prove it works on contact, because in Hearthstone, "Contact" means the card/hero hits them.
Hey David, Mira is a physical person. But sure, let's go by your logic, Rafaam then also steals her ability to absorb everything, and uses it on her, leaving her with nothing power-wise! It doesn't matter there's literally 0 proof Rafaam could copy absorption that can tag info 2 or any kind of CM, but hey, it's what you're arguing for!
I am asking you to not NLF the living hell out of her ability and to provide proof she can absorb mana or arcane energy(technically the pure manifestation of order but at the same time it's just magic so I equate it to that).
Just as how above my example was Rafaam stealing something at Potency he has no business EVER being able to interact with in order to steal, you are trying to give Mira absorption of something she has no proof of interacting with TO absorb. We function off of proof, not assumption. Otherwise Rafaam would be a counter to Shuna instead of getting dumpstered by her, because his stealing would work.
Mana=/=Unspecified Supernatural=/=natural abilities.
It was my example. They can copy a lot of shit because the verse has a lot of different shit that can be copied.
NLF DETECTED. NLF DETECTED.
It destroys your body and soul. The latter is resisted, the former is not.
Mhm. Just like how the mechanics of verses is important for Verse equalization, which you are completely ignoring and pushing NLFs all over.
For the answer though: Fel is sort of like a math equation, except if you do literally anything wrong it obliterates you with the sheer uncontested energy of disorder.
Verse equalization bites you in the ass.
Rafaam steals all her shit and uses it on her.
Has Mira ever in the history of ever been harmed? Or has Rabbit? Cause the mirror is gone Rafaam steals the shit out of that immediately.
TBF, he'd steal the ability to make extra lives so... yeah.
Anywhoo, I leave you with this passage that takes your power absorption argument, and suplexes it down an entire skyscraper.
"Similar supernatural aspects of verses get equalized in a reasonable fashion. So a supernatural energy that almost everyone in a Verse has, which is necessary to fight the characters of said Verse, will be assumed to be the equivalent energy that the opponents use in their techniques so that a proper fight can happen.
Furthermore, attacks that require a special type of energy to be effective, like anti-magic requiring magic, will be assumed to work against the energies of different Verses, as long as they are somehow similar and the mechanics are somehow compatible with the known mechanics behind the energies from different Verses." ~ Standard Battle Assumptions
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I'm not claiming it works on contact, I'm saying the card shows contact and we have no evidence it works without it.
So?
Miras absorption ability wouldn't be a "card in a deck" as it's a biological aspect of her body. Stealing it would be like stealing her lungs or brain which we've already agreed is beyond Rafaams scope.
That's not what I'm arguing for sure, why would Greed having certain interactions make it harder to steal?
What I'm saying is not NLF. You're assuming mana or arcane energy has some inherent resistance to absorption which you need to first prove. Only then would me saying she can absorb it without additional evidence be NLF.
If Miras absorption can interact with physical stuff like matter, bodies, energy, etc, and also absorb more incorporeal things like souls, information, minds, concepts, etc, then you would have to prove mana is somehow more difficult to interact with.
Otherwise it's like I said, like me going "prove Rafaams hax can interact with Mira specifically" despite not providing any reasoning for why Mira should be harder to interact with.
Then why are you assuming mana is somehow resistant to absorption?
You're making a claim and expect me to debunk it without actually providing any evidence for it to begin with.
So? How does that apply here exactly?
What? That reaction makes no sense.
Wtf is NLF about me asking you why it's harder to interact with and me saying if it's AE then it's against the tournament rules?
Yeah so do BPs so Mira should be fine.
That also just seems like basic damage so unless it's stronger than Mira it shouldn't be an issue.
I haven't made a single NLF…
Seems simple.
How? If it's equalized to something less abstract then Mira can interact with it and if it isn't it's outright against the tourney rules.
Well that's kinda the thing.
Miras abilities stem from 4 main places.
1. The cells of Okhwang
2. Greed
3. Her weapons
4. Her own IQ
The first 2 are genetic parts of her body meaning they can't be stolen since they're, as you put it, "bolted to the ground". Same with her IQ which is just the result of her being smart.
And her weapons are semi-sentient. They recognize Mira as their master and can be summoned at will even subconsciously. Her main 2 weapons are her arm (again, bolted to the ground) which she can subconsciously summon and is programmed to only listen to her, and her sword which is slanted to her where even the swords original 2-C owner couldn't summon it despite it acknowledging him as it's owner as well.
So Mira is kidna impossible to steal from
Oh I'm not referring to the mirrors attack reflection (she doesn't have the mirror as it didn't originally belong to rabbit). Mira can use Sujins Pandora or Qs clown song. Pandora can manipulate laws of physics to redirect attacks, and clown song redirects damage Mira takes into a random clown.
That's an ability of Greed which has layered power null so it'd just nullify the stealing same way it nullifies the original users of the ability from summoning it.
I genuinely don't see how this affects the absorption argument. You have not provided a single piece of evidence that would suggest mana has any sort absorption resistance or high form of incorporeality that would make it more difficult to interact with than things Mira has already absorbed (hell I don't think you even showed anything that would imply it's more difficult to absorb than like, a regular physical rock).
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"as long as they are somehow similar and the mechanics are somehow compatible with the known mechanics behind the energies from different Verses."
You need to make mana, a supernatual energy that in a way embodies order, or Fel, a supernatural energy that straight up embodies disorder, equalize to what's been absorbed. If you can't, no deal. That is verse equalization in a nutshell.
it's fun for me when I take breaks lol
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Actually I think I'm pretty calm all things considered.
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This reminds me, would you be willing to share your current thoughts on round 7?
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Yeah I do admit I was getting heated, but long pauses between arguments being made lets me just play a game or some shit and return to chill
Honestly at this point I'm feeling Incon, if David agrees you can coin flip and skip it
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Verse equalization doesn't state that an energy type that's not present in a different verse is impossible to interact with. That's a baseless claim you made.
If you want to claim Mira can't interact with it, prove it has properties that make it harder to interact with than what she already interacted with.
If you think it's because they have AE, then that's restricted by the tournament.
All I'm asking you is to prove your claims before I address them. I can't prove Mira has the necessary type of NPI if you don't prove a certain type of NPI is necessary to begin with.
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Sure, ig. I thought that might be how the match ends
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NPI was never the problem, equalization not working for making it able to be absorbed was.
I'm not about to say Khadgar can absorb straight up normal fire just because he has absorption, I throw the limits to my understanding of them both ways. Rafaam's stealing is countered by your powers or their effects being esoteric or just something specific he doesn't have proof of being able to steal.
Rafaam could steal a devil fruit from One Piece as he has stolen bodily based abilities, but not Darksiders Death's Reaper form because that is a specific supernatural he just plain doesn't have access to in his verse.
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I meant skipping Round 10, as the debate for it seemed to have happened here- mb, shouldve specified. As for my own thoughts? Eh, im not sure. I dont know much about either verses to give a definitive response
(LN character plus KR character also includes a small headache for me, though im kinda leaning for KR right now)
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Okay but that again comes down to the question of what's so different about mana that it can't be absorbed? Simply not existing in GoH? Well again Mira doesn't exist in hearthstone/WoW so why can she be affected by hax?
Yeah but you have to think about why that is not just say "if it doesn't exist in the verse it can't be affected".
Why can't Rafaam replicate a jutsu from Naruto? Because he doesn't have the building blocks (chakra) needed to use them.
Why can he replicate something like Miras swordsmanship style that doesn't exist in his universe? Because he doesn't lack anything necessary to do so. He limbs and he has a sword so there's nothing stopping him from replicating the swordsmanship.
So again if Mira doesn't lack the ability to interact with mana, and mana doesn't have a resistance superior to Miras absorption, then Mira doesn't lack anything necessary for her absorption to work. Same way Rafaam doesn't need to literally have Mira in his verse to say his hax could work on her, he simply needs to have the means necessary to interact with her and for Mira to not have resistances to the hax.
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Yeah sorry for clogging up this thread
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I mean both me and David seem to agree on Match 10 to coin flip
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Alrighty then, ill have to set that up later, but ill try to remember that. Ill be in DND for the next few hours-
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Yes, because Rafaam is always on top!
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