Top Tier 1-A's and Archetypes

[Eganergo]

No, the people Hajun gets stomped by are Umineko and Cthulhu Mythos. Those two franchises have even more degrees of transcendence than him. His limitations preclude him from being High 1-A.

How? The way i see it, the description of the layers of umineko and the description of gate in the cthulhu myth match the description of masada's taikyoku transcendence. For example is the existance of hadou god with 1 taikyoku is irrelevant to hadou god with 2 taikyoku and so on. Just like how in umineko the lower layer is irrelevant and creatures before the gate is irrelevant in cthulhu myth.

Correct me if i'm wrong.

 

[Antvasima]

Being overwhelmingly stronger than another god, is not remotely the same as the complete transcendance comparable to that between an 11-C and a 1-A that is apparently recurrently required to even pass a single layer in Umineko.

 

[Eganergo]

Fair enough since i don't really know well the three verses. My statement was based on my observation and logic. Still, i don't think something like that even matter when you reach 1A. Transcendens = stomps the lower hierarchy of layer/god/gate. Otherwise transcending something lost its meaning.

Edit: After reading the description of taikyoku i stand on my previous point regarding the complete transcendence. Taikyoku is the root of all things and phenomena, therefore, regardless if an impact is tangible, intangible, spiritual, mental, logical, verbal, nothing can affect them. To oppose the law, you are required to possess an equivalent or greater Taikyoku value.

 

[Eganergo]

I'm still curious. What about akuto sai? He has created every story that can be described. These include stories with people like Akuto himself that can create stories, and as such form an infinite hierarchy. Doesn't this make him the strongest 1A here?

 

[Antvasima]

Possibly, but keep in mind that I am not good at evaluating characters of this level and the distinctions between them. DarkLK is far better at it, and even he is uncertain.

 

[Lightbuster30]

Being overwhelmingly stronger than another god, is not remotely the same as the complete transcendance comparable to that between an 11-C and a 1-A that is apparently recurrently required to even pass a single layer in Umineko.

Since when is the difference between one layer and a higher layer that high? The difference between each layer is only a fictional difference, which is equal or greater than the difference between higher-lower dimensions, which this wiki in turn treats as uncountable degrees of infinity. The difference bwtween 1-A and 11-C is far far greater than viewing something as fiction.

 

[Antvasima]

Yes, but I thought that the Umineko layers recurrently contain beyond-dimensional realities.

I may have misunderstood though.

 

[DarkLK]

Yes, but I thought that the Umineko layers recurrently contain beyond-dimensional realities.
I may have misunderstood though.

That's what they contain. But there was no decision about how to interpret it.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Thank you for the information.

 

[Lightbuster30]

Yes, but I thought that the Umineko layers recurrently contain beyond-dimensional realities.

I may have misunderstood though.

I get that, but why would beyond-dimensional imply a 11-C/1-A difference?

@Dark so is that official or is the one Monarch brough up official?

 

[DarkLK]

This is my scheme, which I made based on official information.

 

[Lightbuster30]

This is my scheme, which I made based on official information.

So are Umimeko characters way past 11-C/1-A or just that normally?

 

[DarkLK]

I dont know. There has not yet been any revision and conclusion on this issue.

 

[Antvasima]

Azathoth is supposed to help DarkLK to revise our Umineko pages, but he has been very busy for the last months.

 

[Jakob_C._Brown]

Since when is the difference between one layer and a higher layer that high? The difference between each layer is only a fictional difference, which is equal or greater than the difference between higher-lower dimensions, which this wiki in turn treats as uncountable degrees of infinity. The difference bwtween 1-A and 11-C is far far greater than viewing something as fiction.

I'm interested in the answer to this question as well. Also, how would a story go about defining this difference then. Would a story or a character have to say "This beyond-dimensional realm's 2nd layer makes the 1st layer a mere zero-dimensional space of futility by comparison" or something?

 

[Antvasima]

I think that it simply works by an ascending order of layers of reality that are perceived as fiction by the above layer, despite containing beyond-dimensional realms within them, when compared to lower orders of reality within each respective layer.

 

[Antvasima]

However, again, I am the wrong person to ask about this, and may have misunderstood.

 

[DarkLK]

However, again, I am the wrong person to ask about this, and may have misunderstood.

Well, something like that. You can go from the normal world to the higher dimensions, and then to the realm beyond time, space and coordinates, and then along the hierarchy of the transcendental concept, and then... you will still be within the same layer.

 

[Lucis=the=Lumenian]

so,

'base' for non-1-A things (dimensions and .etc) = baseline

'base' for 1-A things (outerverses and .etc) = slightly higher than baseline

So are Platonic Forms Archetypes or not? I got the impression that its mix of baseline and slighty-higher-than-baseline. since 'dimensions' is just one concept that uses Form as a base. and there are presumably many 1-A concepts that based themselves on Forms. like : Form of Transcendence, Form of Transdualism, Form of Outerverse and .etc

 

[Lightbuster30]

I would assume true Platonic Forms are archetypes or at least similar, based on description.

 

[Lucis=the=Lumenian]

@Light so... Masadagods are Archetypes too, right?

 

[Antvasima]

Here is some information that might be useful: Conceptual Manipulation

 

[Lucis=the=Lumenian]

@Antva thx. that page indeed says that Forms are indeed Archetypes.

but Im still confused wether Masada's taiji is also Archetype or not.

 

[VanMeliodas]

I personally believe that The Law of Identity is the strongest type of 0

 

[Antvasima]

I think that it is TLOI and The Creator, but I am not well informed.

 

[JooCipher]

wasn't Azathoth considered the strongest tier 0?

 

[Sera_EX]

1-A is literally not as complex and abstract as you guys keep making it out to be. Especially when concepts are not equivocal throughout fiction.

For example. Chaos is the source of everything in Demonbane, including information. However, in I/O information is the source of everything, including chaos. Being the archetypal form of your world (regardless of how big it is), means nothing out-of-verse. This is why people want to do "cosmology equalization" in 1-A matches. It's just an excuse to sell a false narrative.

We treat Umineko, Daimaou, and Cthulhu as the most complex verses in existence yet bash Suggsverse. The hypocrisy here is astounding.

 

[Antvasima]

Suggsverse is a very poorly written extremely obscure OC series written by a severely delusional creator who thinks that it is reality with the sole purpose of creating the most powerful fiction in existence while basically just ripping off Umineko. We are not going to act as a marketing machine for that kind of trash, and I do not appreciate the jab in my direction.

 

[Overlord4896]

imo azathoth is the strongest tier 0 since i am pretty sure there is an infinite amount of gates with each one transending the other in the form of a 1-A to a 11-C. i might be wrong though

 

[Lightbuster30]

imo azathoth is the strongest tier 0 since i am pretty sure there is an infinite amount of gates with each one transending the other in the form of a 1-A to a 11-C. i might be wrong though

Where does that even come from? I keep hearing it, but the only mention I see of treating 1-A like 11-C is the Outer Gods before the Great Old Ones.

 

[Dvorak1902]

I know the Tiering System probably has this covered, but it has always bugged me.

How can a character who is beyond ALL dimensional constraints be affected and said to "do things" at all? Any form of change as I understand it is just a product of time, which is obviously a dimension.

 

[Sera_EX]

@Ant

I know Suggs' quality is poor but it's still hypocritical if we're talking about hierarchical power only, rather than writing quality. Also, why do you assume that's a jab at your direction or that I'm suggesting we allow Suggsverse here? Both couldn't be farther from the truth.

@Dvorak

You're overthinking it. 1-A is the exact same thing as any other tier. There's 1-A swords, guns, magic, etc. They are just meta-abstractions and have an immunity to dimensional-based space-time powers.

 

[Overlord4896]

i am pretty sure the entities beyond the first gate view the 1-As below the first gate as basically 11-C. hypnos was a 1-A being who transdended infinite 1-A realms before reaching the first gate. then he passed the first gate and went mad from what he saw and was so terrified he never wanted to go to sleep again.

 

[Wokistan]

Not all the 1-As are Outer Gods and fiction can do what it wants even if it isn't really conducive to human perceptions of reality @Dvorak

 

[Antvasima]

Well, I am talking about why we do not feature it. I don't want this wiki to be dragged into and propagate Suggs' all-encompassing delusional psychosis.

 

[Antvasima]

In addition, a series that entirely consists of tier 0 characters would automatically overshadow everything else in the wiki, and turn us into one-sided propaganda.

 

[Sera_EX]

I never said we should allow Suggsverse. Check any thread regarding the topic in the past and I always was against it. Not because the writing sucks, because I think Naruto's writing is bad yet I'm not suggesting we not allow Naruto. Suggs isn't allowed because it's too obscure and hardly qualifies as legitimate fiction.

 

[Wokistan]

Suggs could just be rated as mostly 1-A as opposed to all 0, since we already discount omnipotence statements and such, but I don't think anyone thinks we should let it on.

Invisible dragon was disallowed for just being terrible though lol.

 

[Sera_EX]

A verse should never be not allowed due to its writing quality. Tiering issues and obscurity is perfectly reasonable but writing quality is mostly subjective.

 

[Antvasima]

@Sera

Okay. Noted, but there are all the other reasons I mentioned against it as well.

@Wokistan

Well, the problem is that most of his characters legitimately likely are tier 0 if we examine the cosmology. In fact, they would largely probably qualify for the tier S that I, Azathoth, and DarkLK talked about and then scrapped after Matthew disagreed, which would far exceed the requirements for tier 0.

Then again, Umineko seems to have a similar problem, with even Bernkastel and Lambdadelta likely exceeding several of our tier 0 characters from other fictions if we get technical about it, so it may or may not "break our system" as well. It is up to Promestein and DarkLK to revise it though. I do not understand it well.