Top Tier 1-A's and Archetypes

[Lightbuster30]

So exactly what makes 1-As deacribed as Archetypes so powerful? For example: Bern and Lamb are regarded as top tier 1-As due to being archetypes. Because the world is defined by them and participates in them. But what makes that so far into 1-A?

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

Because the entire world is defined by them, and their worlds are pretty freaking large and complex.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Don't you get tired of boasting about your favorite verses everywhere where it's not relevant, Zach.

 

[SomebodyData]

I'm pretty sure constantly derailing threads is banworthy.

O v O?

 

[Lightbuster30]

Because the entire world is defined by them, and their worlds are pretty freaking large and complex.

Ok, so what if it's a baseline 1-A world? For these girls specifically, how far above baseline are their world's? I'd Imagine that being an archetype or platonic form to such a world would imply a huge degree of transcendence.

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

Hang on let me find the image

The reason Bern and Lambda are so high is because they are embodiments of aspects of that entire diagram, including its infinite hierarchy and beyond.

 

[ZacharyGrossman273]

I see an infinite hiearchy but not an infinite beyond dimensional hierarchy

 

[Wokistan]

The term archtype is used to describe some things in Cthulhu mythos as well. For example, You Sothoth can be described as a "Composite Archtype". It's physical form encompasses all that is, isn't, and any other possible state that us humans can't concieve, all knowledge, all concepts, all is yog. The dream of Azathoth is Yog Sothoth, and You Sothoth is all that that dream is. (At the same time, due to how 1-As in CM work, all the above is technically only our conception from a limited human viewpoint and is likely to be incredibly wrong, but semantics).

 

[Wokistan]

Also Zach I don't see the issue here. Layer 1 clearly goes to 1-A, then there is a noted infinite heirarchy of transcendence between such layers. Some people are beyond this heirarchy entirely.

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

I see an infinite hiearchy but not an infinite beyond dimensional hierarchy

"3-D physical world and linear time -> higher dimensions -> transcedental world beyond everytime and everyspace"

And that's just the first layer of the infinite hierarchy.

 

[Lightbuster30]

I thought the sea of nothingness was baseline? Guess I was wrong. So what if you were an Archetype to a baseline transcendent world then? Platonic Forms seem to fall in line with Archtypes. So would that allow you to transcend a baseline realm as it would a dimensioned realm? Since you'd be an archetype not just to a dimensioned world, but also to an undimensioned one?

 

[Wokistan]

Uminekos are superior to platonic forms, and a baseline 1-A realm is already surpassed in just one layer.

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

Sea of Nothingness exists outside and alongside the infinite hierarchy

 

[Phoenix821]

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:DarkLK/When_the_Cosmology_Cry

 

[Lightbuster30]

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:DarkLK/When_the_Cosmology_Cry

The chart Monarch posted is all I needed. Much less text to sift through.

 

[Phoenix821]

I think this one is better, it's in the blog.

 

[Lightbuster30]

So wait is that from the actual series?

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

Yeah but that is abstract af

 

[Lightbuster30]

Ah. I thought it was something put together on the internet. But like I said, the one you showed me is easier to find. Plus easier to get the scaling.

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

I was replying to pheonix

I don't think that image is in the actual series

 

[Lightbuster30]

I was replying to pheonix

I don't think that image is in the actual series

Oh. But, yeah that is real abstract.

 

[fandom_22Easy]

This may be a bit off topic, but I am interested.

At the second panel to the top, it says "Mind break for any intelligent lifeform." So from that I'm assuming our brains would essentially "short out" and we'd go insane from attempting to comprehend the secrets of the universe.

 

[Phoenix821]

It says in the blog.

 

[Antvasima]

Let's just put it like this: Umineko no Naku Koro ni is from where Lionel Suggs apparently copied most of his ideas. I am pretty sure that it is the strongest verse in this wiki, possibly matched by Ichiban Ushiro no Daimaou and approached by the Cthulhu Mythos, but that's it.

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

Approached by Cthulhu Mythos?

I think they're about even, with Cthulhu Mythos possible being higher, seeing as Nyarla has the same sort of "part of an ginormous world multilayered world at every level" as Bern and Lambda and there's (non High 1-A / 0) characters above it.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay.

 

[DarkLK]

Hang on let me find the image

This is an outdated image. I made a new one for revision.

 

[DarkLK]

I think they're about even, with Cthulhu Mythos possible being higher, seeing as Nyarla has the same sort of "part of an ginormous world multilayered world at every level" as Bern and Lambda and there's (non High 1-A / 0) characters above it.

This "above" mean means only importance for the Universe (in the broadest sense) or something like that. Even Yog can not destroy Nyarl. And there are other Voyagers except Bern and Lambda, with laws that are less significant.

 

[DarkLK]

This may be a bit off topic, but I am interested.
At the second panel to the top, it says "Mind break for any intelligent lifeform." So from that I'm assuming our brains would essentially "short out" and we'd go insane from attempting to comprehend the secrets of the universe.

Not "we". Those beings whose mind has already reached the Peak of All Things and for which the meaning of the lower ladder and its steps has been already lost. Even they will go mad from a direct attempt to understand those secrets.

 

[DarkLK]

I think this one is better, it's in the blog.

Just in case, I will clarify. These are schemes of different hierarchies.

 

[Lightbuster30]

So then how far into 1-A would defining a baseline realm be? It could boost a lot of characters who effectively are their realms since by being their realm their realm would be defined by them. This wouldn't warrant an at least or anything, but would being something like that to a 1-A realm imply a degree of transcendence to it?

 

[Wokistan]

Got a character in particular? If you exist as an otherwise baseline 1-A realm kinda like Oblivion, you'd be above baseline but not to the same degree as absolute transcendence.

 

[Lightbuster30]

Someone like Beyonder maybe? The Beyond Realm is 1-A without Beyonder "filling it" yet it is nothing without Beyonder, who is it's embodiment. Basically any 1-A who is literally their realm

 

[Antvasima]

Our system does seem kind of inconsistent at these high levels, as, going by the above descriptions, Bernkastel and Lambdadelta might exceed characters such as the One-Above-All, Monitor-Mind the Overvoid, or Kami Tenchi, and yet we rate them lower due to that they are less than nothing compared to Featherine Augustus Aurora.

We might have to redefine the system slightly at some point, but I do not know how to do so.

 

[Wokistan]

The tier 0s are more there due to a lack of restriction. Shub-Niggurath is probably more transcendent than a lot of tier 0s and High 1-As, but due to having Yog and Azathoth above it it is stuck at 1-A. 1-A+ scaling is mainly in each verse/

 

[Antvasima]

Yes, DarkLK and Matthew mentioned that we should redefine tier High 1-A and 0 a while back, but it could take quite a while until we get around to it.

 

[Lightbuster30]

.

Not really. I've heard multiple times over here that transcendence over 1-A realms isn't that important in regards to their power as much as it us how limited they are.

That is: Look at Hajun, the guy transcends 1-As at least as much Bern (views people many degrees of infinity above baseline as they do normal humans), yet he gets stomped on the grounds that "he has too many limits by comparison.

If such is truly the case then the strength of a 1-A should be determined by restrictions and limitations, not transcendence over "lower" 1-As.

 

[Antvasima]

I referred more to this: [1]

As far as I have understood, Bernkastel is many layers up in this hierarchy.

 

[Wokistan]

No, the people Hajun gets stomped by are Umineko and Cthulhu Mythos. Those two franchises have even more degrees of transcendence than him. His limitations preclude him from being High 1-A.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, I don't think that we will get anywhere further with this discussion, and I don't want it to derail away into uncertain and speculative territories. Perhaps we should close it?