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Top 10 Strongest Non-Smurfs for every tier continued

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WeeklyBattles said:
Anywhere from 5 to 70
Click to expand...
Yeah....... you definitely have to provide evidence for that.

WeeklyBattles said:
though the amount of resistances the opponent has dont really matter due to his resistance negation
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I don't believe we treat Resistance Negation as this ability which can negate any resistance, regardless of layering if said ability has never negated a resistance on that level before, but i could be wrong so i'll have to create a thread about it later today for more context.
 
Deceived3596 said:
Yeah....... you definitely have to provide evidence for that.


I don't believe we treat Resistance Negation as this ability which can negate any resistance, regardless of layering if said ability has never negated a resistance on that level before, but i could be wrong so i'll have to create a thread about it later today for more context.
Click to expand...
You're right. We do not.

Honestly, this discussion is giving me flashbacks to pre-revision Nicol Bolas vs Bai Xiaochun, where egregious claims were supported with game ability descriptions of hilarious ambiguity.
 
Deceived3596 said:
Yeah....... you definitely have to provide evidence for that.
Click to expand...
Mages get an additional layer of magic resistance for ever resistances for every level they are. Illidan is max level even in his early key.
Deceived3596 said:
I don't believe we treat Resistance Negation as this ability which can negate any resistance, regardless of layering if said ability has never negated a resistance on that level before, but i could be wrong so i'll have to create a thread about it later today for more context.
Click to expand...
To be fair, do they have resistance to chaos manipulation? And Chaos damage also negates physical durability and magic-enhanced defenses
 
WeeklyBattles said:
Bolas would win that
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Well yes, he probably likely would with his current profile but that's not really relevant. My main point was back before his profile had anything of note, you would use descriptions that didn't imply at all what ability or resistance you would claim he had.
 
WeeklyBattles said:
Mages get an additional layer of magic resistance for ever resistances for every level they are. Illidan is max level even in his early key.
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Can i have actual scans of this instead of just your explanation? i'm not saying you're lying or anything like that, i just want more context about how Stormrage's layering works.

WeeklyBattles said:
To be fair, do they have resistance to chaos manipulation? And Chaos damage also negates physical durability and magic-enhanced defenses
Click to expand...
They don't resist Chaos Manipulation itself but they heavily resist a bunch of the esoteric abilities that are gained through Chaos Damage or other magical schools, which would allow them to resist the effects of said magic, just not the actual source of said magic.
 
Planck69 said:
Well yes, he probably likely would with his current profile but that's not really relevant. My main point was back before his profile had anything of note, you would use descriptions that didn't imply at all what ability or resistance you would claim he had.
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Ah, yeah thats fair, hell even now his profile is only about a third of what he actually has
 
Deceived3596 said:
Can i have actual scans of this instead of just your explanation? i'm not saying you're lying or anything like that, i just want more context about how Stormrage's layering works.
Click to expand...
www.wowhead.com

Magic Absorption

Increases all resistances by 1 per level and causes all spells you fully resist to restore 2% of your total mana. 1 sec cooldown. Requires Mage.
www.wowhead.com www.wowhead.com

And this is on top of the innate resistances that Illidan gets due to his heritage as a Night Elf and his innate magic resistances due to his demon half
Deceived3596 said:
They don't resist Chaos Manipulation itself but they heavily resist a bunch of the esoteric abilities that are gained through Chaos Damage or other magical schools, which would allow them to resist the effects of said magic, just not the actual source of said magic.
Click to expand...
Yeah thats the thing, those other schools all have their damage changed into Chaos damage regardless of the initial school they came from. Resisting those schools wouldnt really help as the spells wouldnt be dealing those types of damage.
 
WeeklyBattles said:
And this is on top of the innate resistances that Illidan gets due to his heritage as a Night Elf and his innate magic resistances due to his demon half
Click to expand...
Yeah...... this wouldn't give "layered" resistances for what we consider as "layered" resistances on the wiki, you'd have to prove that there's a quantifiable difference between say, level 1 resistances and level 2 resistances to the point that abilities which can bypass level 1 resistance can't bypass level 2 resistances, which is most likely an unprovable claim since video games are usually terrible at showing layering differences.

WeeklyBattles said:
Yeah thats the thing, those other schools all have their damage changed into Chaos damage regardless of the initial school they came from. Resisting those schools wouldnt really help as the spells wouldnt be dealing those types of damage.
Click to expand...
Doesn't really address my point since i'm saying the "source" or "school" of said magic would affect D.Gray-Man characters but the actual "effects" of said abilities won't given their layered resistances.
 
Deceived3596 said:
Yeah...... this wouldn't give "layered" resistances for what we consider as "layered" resistances on the wiki, you'd have to prove that there's a quantifiable difference between say, level 1 resistances and level 2 resistances to the point that abilities which can bypass level 1 resistance can't bypass level 2 resistances, which is most likely an unprovable claim since video games are usually terrible at showing layering differences.
Click to expand...
I...did though? The link i posted is that evidence, with each rank in the class you gain outright immunity to more and more spells
Deceived3596 said:
Doesn't really address my point since i'm saying the "source" or "school" of said magic would affect D.Gray-Man characters but the actual "effects" of said abilities won't given their layered resistances.
Click to expand...
Thats the thing though, the source or school means nothing here, all of it gets lumped together as chaos damage, there isnt any other kind of damage being dealt, and the fact thatthey dont resist Chaos manip on top of it ignoring physical durability and defenses means it will royally **** them over
 
"Immunity." isn't a real thing unless you have a bunch of evidence for that being the case. I also gotta agree with Deceived here on that level system not counting as actual "layers.".



A layered ability would look more like character A posses soul hax that works on billions. Character B is resistant to character A's soul hax, but character C is able to overpower that resistance of character B. That's one layer, rinse lather and repeat.



Simply gaining a increase in addition to one's former resistances doesn't grant layers. Layers would require you to bypass a resistance and so on and so forth.
 
WeeklyBattles said:
  • Incanter's Flow: Magical energy flows through the Mage while in combat, building up to 20% increased damage and then diminishing down to 4% increased damage, cycling every 10 seconds.
  • Netherwind Armor: Reduces the chance you will suffer a critical strike by 15%.
  • Mastery: Savant: Increases Mana regeneration rate and maximum Mana by 9.6%.
  • Time Anomaly: At any moment, the Mage has a chance to gain Arcane Power for 8 seconds, gain Evocation for 1 seconds, or gain Time Warp for 6 seconds.
  • Enlightened: Arcane damage dealt while above 70% mana is increased by 8%, Mana Regen while below 70% is increased by 20%.
  • Arcane Subtlety: Reduces the chance your spells will be dispelled by 30%.
  • Arcane Focus: Increases the Mage's chance to hit and reduces the mana cost of Arcane spells by 3%.
  • Magic Absorption: Increases all resistances by 1 per level and causes all spells the Mage fully resists to restore 2% of your total mana. 1 sec cooldown.
  • Arcane Resilience: Increases armor by an amount equal to 50% of the Mage's Intellect.
  • Arcane Meditation: Allows 50% of the Mage's mana regeneration to continue while casting.
  • Arcane Instability: Increases the damage done by the Mage's spells and critical strike chance by 3%.
  • Mastery: Ignite: The Mage's target burns for an additional 6% over 9 sec of the total direct damage caused by Fireball, Fire Blast, Scorch, Pyroblast, Meteor, Phoenix Flames, and Flamestrike. If this effect is reapplied, any remaining damage will be added to the new Ignite. Phoenix Flames causes Ignites to spread to 8 nearby enemies. Enemies affected by Ignite have a 10% chance to flare up and deal Fire damage to nearby enemies.
  • Fiery Payback: Melee and ranged attacks made against the Mage have a 10% chance to disarm the attacker's main hand and ranged weapons. When below 35% health all damage taken is reduced by 20%.
  • Hot Streak: Getting two direct-damage critical strikes in a row will make the next Pyroblast or Flamestrike spell instant cast, has a 15% chance to make the next non-instant Pyroblast cast within 15 sec deal 240% additional damage, and causes double the normal Ignite damage. Casting Pyroblast or Flamestrike while Hot Streak is active has a 8% chance to instantly reactivate Hot Streak.
  • Critical Mass: Your spells have a 15% increased chance to deal a critical strike. You gain 10% more of the Critical Strike stat from all sources.
  • Cauterize: Fatal damage instead brings the Mage to 35% health and then burns them for 28% of your maximum health over 6 seconds. While burning, movement slowing effects are suppressed and the Mage's movement speed is increased by 150%. This effect cannot occur more than once every 5 minute.
  • Flamecannon: After standing still in combat for 2 seconds, the Mage's maximum health increases by 3%, damage done increases by 3%, and range of Fire spells increase by 3 yards. This effect stacks up to 5 times and lasts for 5 seconds.
  • Molten Armor: Increases your spell critical strike chance by 10% and reduces all Physical damage you take by 6%.
  • Master of Elements: Spell criticals will refund 30% of their base mana cost.
  • Burning Determination: After being interrupted while casting a spell, the Mage becomes immune to being interrupted while casting for 8 seconds.
  • Arctic Winds: Reduces the chance melee and ranged attacks will hit by 5%.
  • Shatter: Multiplies the critical strike chance of spells against frozen targets by 1.5, and adds an additional 50% critical strike chance.
  • Frostbite: Gives Chill effects a 15% chance to freeze the target for 4 seconds.
  • Bone Chilling: Whenever the Mage attempt to Chill a target, they gain Bone Chilling, increasing all Frost damage dealt by .5% for 8 seconds, stacking up to 10 times.
  • Frost Armor: Increases Haste by 8% and causes enemies who strike you to have movement speed slowed by 30% for 15 seconds.
  • Elemental Precision: Reduces the chance that the opponent can resist your Frost and Fire spells by 6%.
  • Ice Shards: You gain 5% more of the Multistrike stat from all sources.
  • Piercing Ice: Increases the critical strike chance of your spells by 3%.
  • Frozen Core: Reduces the damage taken from all spells by 6%.
  • Demonic Wards: The chaotic energy that flows within Demon Hunters gifts them with unparalleled power and durability. Demon Hunters passively gain 13% increased damage, 132% increased armor, 4.8% increased movement speed, and 79% increased stamina. Additionally, the Demon Hunter's tattoos reduce all damage taken by 20%, and their Illidari Knowledge reduces magic damage taken by an additional 4%.
  • Melee Damage: Demon Hunters attacks deal Chaos damage (making it effective against all armor types) and has area of effect properties. Basic attacks have the Leech property, healing the Demon Hunter for 5% of the damage they deal, and have a 60% chance to deal additional Shadow damage and generate Fury.
  • Double Jump: Demon Hunters are able to jump again while near the apex of their first jump.
  • Glide: Demon Hunters are able to unfurl their wings while falling in order to slow their descent and glide through the air.
  • Spectral Sight: The Demon Hunters' apparent blindness belies their true powers of perception. They rely on magically augmented sight to detect treasure and enemies, even those that hide behind obstacles, are stealthed, or are invisible. Spectral Sight lasts an additional 6 seconds if disrupted by attacking or taking damage.
  • Chaos Brand: The Demon Hunter's damage brands the target, increasing magic damage the opponent takes by 7%.
  • Mastery: Demonic Presence: Passively causes all Arcane, Fire, Frost, Nature, and Shadow damage to be dealt as Chaos damage instead, increases all Chaos damage by 16%, and increases movement speed by 4.8%.
  • Everlasting Hunt: Dealing damage increases the Demon Hunter's movement speed by 15% for 3 seconds.
  • Charred Warblades: The Demon Hunter heals for 5% of all Fire damage you deal.
  • Fodder to the Flame: The Demon Hunter's damaging abilities have a chance to call forth a condemned demon for 25 seconds. Throw Glaive deals lethal damage to the demon, which explodes on death, dealing Shadow damage to nearby enemies and healing the Demon Hunter for 25% of your maximum health. The explosion deals reduced damage beyond 5 targets.
  • Deceiver's Fury: The Demon Hunter generates 5 Fury each time they dodge an attack or spell.
  • Know Your Enemy: The Demon Hunter gains critical strike damage equal to 50% of their critical strike chance.
  • Unending Hatred: Taking damage causes the Demon Hunter to gain Fury based on the damage dealt.
  • Soul Shards: Soul Shard are generated by many of the Warlock's spells. Soul Shards are consumed to cast the Warlock's most powerful spells and summon demons to serve them, and every Soul Shard spent has a 15% chance to be refunded. While out of combat the Warlock regenerate up to 3 Soul Shards.
  • Soul Leech: All single-target damage done by the Warlock and their minions grants shadowy shields that absorb 10% of the damage dealt for 15 seconds, up to 20% of maximum health, causes 20% of all damage th Warlock takes to be taken by their demon pet instead, and heals the Warlock for 25% and their pet for 50% of the absorption it grants. Soul Leech absorption passively recharges at a rate of 1% of maximum health every 1 second.
  • Demonic Embrace: Stamina increased by 10%.
  • Mastery: Chaotic Energies: Your spells deal a random amount of additional damage, up to 24%. Damage you take is reduced by a random amount, up to 5%.
  • Demonic Core:When the Warlock's Wild Imps expend all of their energy or are imploded, they have a 10% chance to absorb their life essence, granting a stack of Demonic Core. When the Warlock's summoned Dreadstalkers fade away, they have a 100% chance to absorb their life essence, granting a stack of Demonic Core. Demonic Core reduces the cast time of Demonbolt by 100%. Maximum 4 stacks.
    • Power Siphon: Instantly sacrifice up to 2 Wild Imps to generate 2 charges of Demonic Core.
  • Inner Demons: The Warlock passively summons a Wild Imp to fight for them every 12 seconds, and has a 10% chance to also summon an additional Demon to fight for them for 15 seconds.
  • Sacrificed Souls: Shadow Bolt and Demonbolt deal 4% additional damage per demon you have summoned.
  • Mana Feed: When the Warlock's summoned demon critically hits with its Basic Attack, the Warlock instantly gains 4% total mana. When the Warlock gains mana from Life Tap, the Warlock's summoned demon gains 60% of the mana they gain.
  • Demonic Resilience: Reduces the chance the Warlock will be critically hit by melee and spells by 3% and reduces all damage their summoned demon takes by 15%.
  • Fel Intellect: Increases the Intellect of the Warlock's Imp, Voidwalker, Succubus, Felhunter and Felguard by 15% and increases your maximum mana 3%.
  • Intensity: Gives the Warlock a 70% chance to resist interruption caused by damage while casting or channeling any Destruction spell
  • Nether Protection: When the Warlock absorbs damage through Shadow Ward, Nether Ward or other effects, they gain Nether Protection, reducing all damage by that spell school by 30% for 12 seconds.
All of these are passive abilities Illidan has. Anything here that is listed as dealing damage bypasses resistances as it deals Chaos damage, which fully ignores physical defenses, armor, and resistances as well as other forms of damage-mitigating magic
Click to expand...
None of these deal damage passively. They are either stat amps, increase his defences, buff attributes of other attacks, do something in reaction to their's or the opponent's actions, or require several seconds to pass to activate their non-damaging effects.
 
Tbh the whole levels thing is a lot like me trying to place users at 100% Synchronization rates at 100 layers since higher Synchronization rates grant higher resistances and abilities.


But I'm not gonna do that for obvious reasons.
 
WeeklyBattles said:
I...did though? The link i posted is that evidence, with each rank in the class you gain outright immunity to more and more spells
Click to expand...
It doesn't say that? it specifically says "Increases all resistances by 1 per level and causes all spells you fully resist to restore 2% of your total mana." This isn't saying that every new level in Magic Absorption grants more and more immunities/resistances toward magical abilities but rather it increases the amount of mana regained after being hit by magical attacks you inherently/already have full resistance towards.

This also doesn't prove that having a higher level of Magic Absorption means you can completely resist the magic of people which can bypass lower levels of Magic Absorption, you're making an assumption which doesn't have any evidence behind it being true.

WeeklyBattles said:
Thats the thing though, the source or school means nothing here, all of it gets lumped together as chaos damage, there isnt any other kind of damage being dealt, and the fact thatthey dont resist Chaos manip on top of it ignoring physical durability and defenses means it will royally **** them over
Click to expand...
Already addressed the Chaos Manipulation multiple times, the actual source of said magic doesn't matter since D.Gray-Man characters resist the vast majority of the "effects" which are used by said magic, such as Soul Manipulation, Ice Manipulation etc. Also the Resistance Negation point has also already been addressed as well, until you can provide actual valid layer scaling for Stormrage then he isn't bypassing D.Gray-Man 5-B's resistances since they're more layered then anything Stormrage has actually negated before.
 
LordGinSama said:
Tbh the whole levels thing is a lot like me trying to place users at 100% Synchronization rates at 100 layers since higher Synchronization rates grant higher resistances and abilities.


But I'm not gonna do that for obvious reasons.
Click to expand...
Planck69 said:
Or me using each layer of Qi Condensation to justify 80 layers of resistance for Ergenverse 4-As.
Click to expand...
I mean thats cool and all but in Warcraft thats how their resistances actually work, its the same mechanic as verses like Warhammer and D&D
 
WeeklyBattles said:
I mean thats cool and all but in Warcraft thats how their resistances actually work, its the same mechanic as verses like Warhammer and D&D
Click to expand...
"It definitely works like that in this verse because it works. Definitely."

I've very little clue of the layering going on in either of those settings so I'm not quite sure what I should take away from that.
 
Deceived3596 said:
It doesn't say that? it specifically says "Increases all resistances by 1 per level and causes all spells you fully resist to restore 2% of your total mana." This isn't saying that every new level in Magic Absorption grants more and more immunities/resistances toward magical abilities but rather it increases the amount of mana regained after being hit by magical attacks you inherently/already have full resistance towards.

This also doesn't prove that having a higher level of Magic Absorption means you can completely resist the magic of people which can bypass lower levels of Magic Absorption, you're making an assumption which doesn't have any evidence behind it being true.
Click to expand...
Yes, it does say exactly that. As you gain higher levels of magic resistance you gain immunity to more spells, because your resistance to said magic is increasing as you level up.
Deceived3596 said:
Already addressed the Chaos Manipulation multiple times, the actual source of said magic doesn't matter since D.Gray-Man characters resist the vast majority of the "effects" which are used by said magic, such as Soul Manipulation, Ice Manipulation etc. Also the Resistance Negation point has also already been addressed as well, until you can provide actual valid layer scaling for Stormrage then he isn't bypassing D.Gray-Man 5-B's resistances since they're more layered then anything Stormrage has actually negated before.
Click to expand...
The spells dont deal soul damage, ice damage, etc. they deal exclusvely Chaos damage and nothing else. D. Gray Man dont have resistance to chaos manip or physical durability negation so theres nothing that needs to be proven for Illidan. You have to prove that D. Gray Man resists Illidan's Chaos damage
 
Planck69 said:
"It definitely works like that in this verse because it works. Definitely."

I've very little clue of the layering going on in either of those settings so I'm not quite sure what I should take away from that.
Click to expand...
Higher levels = higher layers of resistances for Warcraft, Warhammer, and D&D
 
"Physical durability negation."


Resistance to several forms of durability negation such as matter destruction would like to disagree with you.
 
WeeklyBattles said:
Yes, it does say exactly that. As you gain higher levels of magic resistance you gain immunity to more spells, because your resistance to said magic is increasing as you level up.
Click to expand...
It deadass doesn't say that Weekly, you're extrapolating something that isn't stated or implied, until you can provide actual evidence for your claim you can't make such an assumption.

WeeklyBattles said:
The spells dont deal soul damage, ice damage, etc. they deal exclusvely Chaos damage and nothing else. D. Gray Man dont have resistance to chaos manip or physical durability negation so theres nothing that needs to be proven for Illidan. You have to prove that D. Gray Man resists Illidan's Chaos damage
Click to expand...
So you're telling me Chaos Damage doesn't induce any esoteric effects like Soul Manipulation but rather only negates physical durability through Chaos Manipulation?
 
LordGinSama said:
"Physical durability negation."

Resistance to several forms of durability negation such as matter destruction would like to disagree with you.
Click to expand...
Cool? Illidan's dura negation isnt that, so unless they have a resistance to Illidan's form of durability negation im not sure what youre trying to argue
 
Deceived3596 said:
It deadass doesn't say that Weekly, you're extrapolating something that isn't stated or implied, until you can provide actual evidence for your claim you can't make such an assumption.
Click to expand...
My mans, it does in fact say that, we can go on and on ad infinitum but at the end of the day that is how his stuff works

wowpedia.fandom.com

Resistance

Resistance is a combat statistic that mitigates incoming magic damage and effects. Magic spells from the following five schools can be resisted from magical resistance: Fire, Frost, Arcane, Nature, and Shadow. There is no resistance stat for Holy, and as such no players nor NPCs can resist Holy...
wowpedia.fandom.com wowpedia.fandom.com

wowpedia.fandom.com

Immune

Immunity is an avoidance mechanic available to both players and NPCs. It can be triggered by both items and spells, and it is also sometimes native.
wowpedia.fandom.com wowpedia.fandom.com
Deceived3596 said:
So you're telling me Chaos Damage doesn't induce any esoteric effects like Soul Manipulation but rather only negates physical durability through Chaos Manipulation?
Click to expand...
It negates all forms of physical durability, magic-enhanced defenses, and resistances
 
To be fair, I haven't played WoW in awhile, but let's do this

Yeah, the level of the resistance increases with each level, it's probably layered like that, but that really depends on how much bullshit you accept for WoW's game mechanics as a whole, but in the end, they're what's important, DnD is infamously layered and the level of P O W E R! Is what they get layered for.

Another thing to note is that Illidan can toggle off his chaos damage on his spells, he did this a lot in the Illidan novel where he did a lot of magic that wasn't chaos, so if Illidan feels like it he can throw around a raw Pyroblast or something along those lines
 
Aren't all of Ikki's High 7-A ratings based around a single attack? if so wouldn't that remove him from the High 7-A placement since you physically need to be that tier for more than one attack?
 
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