Toneri Hax Revision

[Omimi]

AppleLord wrote:

Has Naruto or anyone else use this power to create a chair eve? We cannot assume that suddenly they can create a car out of nothing. Or control the matter of a human being and turn him into a dog. It has limits, like everything else. Or can we say that Toneri can reshape the whole Universe since is matter? NLF.

naruto did create an eye for kakashi

 

[AppleLord]

AppleLord wrote:
Has Naruto or anyone else use this power to create a chair eve? We cannot assume that suddenly they can create a car out of nothing. Or control the matter of a human being and turn him into a dog. It has limits, like everything else. Or can we say that Toneri can reshape the whole Universe since is matter? NLF.

naruto did create an eye for kakashi

How is creating an eye for someone else in combat useful? He couldn't fix his own arm or make a body for Obito. That's not a good example, that's at most (Low) Matter Manipulation.

 

[BarryAllen2.0]

Wait, doesnt the databook say SPSM gives Naruto an inate omniscient understanding of chakra in general? Naruto at leaat as well as Hags and Kaguya should be able to do the same as Toneri. Hamura as well being his teachings are what is passed down.


Also, Naruto did transform a TSB Orb into a Biju Bomb RS.

 

[AppleLord]

That will be a huge NLF if accepted. Ex. Chakra is equalized, now he knows everything about his opponents powers. Such problems it will bring, I can't even start explaining them all.

 

[Antvasima]

I agree with AppleLord.

 

[BarryAllen2.0]

My bad, this is what it says:




The big header basically says it's a gift from the ancestor of Shinobi that grants a supernatural mental state allowing for the complete, universal comprehension of all things.

From what I can make out of the main body of text, it says that this is a technique that allows the user to quickly grasp the nature of Chakra with the skill of a well-studied, highly sensitive master. It also seems to have a bunch of philosophical stuff about the Sage of Six Paths which is hard to make out because I can only read about half of it.

Top caption says that the caster has an unconscious/automatic mastery of the Sage of Six Path's "ability to levitate" (µÁ«ÚüèÒüÖÒéïÞâ¢Õèø, fuyü suru nōryoku).

Second caption says, "Kicking a Truthseeker Orb! Surpassing Kurama Mode, his vast Chakra lets him perform this risky stunt!"

Third caption says, "His reaction speed meets or exceeds that of Madara in his Ten Tails Jinchüriki Form. It's the height of sensory ability!"

The headings in the databook are always hyperbole and meant for hype such as in Databook 3 when it says in the heading that the Kyuubi has the power to turn he world to ash. The universal understanding of all things part isn't in the main text description of the ability. I bolded what the main text says. Which, all things considered, basically means that Naruto could do what Toneri could either way.

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

Has Naruto or anyone else use this power to create a chair even? We cannot assume that suddenly they can create a car out of nothing. Or control the matter of a human being and turn him into a dog. It has limits, like everything else. Or can we say that Toneri can reshape the whole Universe since is matter? NLF.

well he created a new eye for Kakashi

 

[Burning_Full_Fingers]

So Matter Manipulation has been accepted, the problem is the NLF issue.

 

[AppleLord]

Has Naruto or anyone else use this power to create a chair even? We cannot assume that suddenly they can create a car out of nothing. Or control the matter of a human being and turn him into a dog. It has limits, like everything else. Or can we say that Toneri can reshape the whole Universe since is matter? NLF.

well he created a new eye for Kakashi

How is creating an eye for someone else in combat useful? He couldn't fix his own arm or make a body for Obito. That's not a good example, that's at most (Low) Matter Manipulation.

 

[Gemmysaur]

Looks to me like he has limited capacity on how much he can heal or recreate. An eye is tiny compared to an arm, and quickly healing up what looks to be half-body burns on Sasuke is below recreating an arm as well imo.

 

[Antvasima]

@Burning Yes. Limited matter manipulation should be fine.

 

[Chepkaloak12]

So,is this accepted?

 

[Antvasima]

See my last post.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

So if Matter Manipulation has been accepted, could we move on to the other suggested haxes as well please?

 

[Antvasima]

What suggestions would that be?

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Other Suggestions:

-Durability Negation/Bypassing Durability

-Resistance to Space-Time Manipulation (ONLY for Kaguya)

-Immunity to Nullfication Hax (Applies to all S06p users).

And thats it for the moment.

 

[Gemmysaur]

Can you provide examples for these suggestions?

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Sure. But I will in a little bit as I have something to do real quick. But when im finished i'll get right to it.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Back. Okay so here is why I think they should be given those suggestions (along with examples).

• Durability Negation

-Reason and Example: They should get a kind of Durability Bypassing/Negation hax because they are capable of forming attacks that are formed and used by the TSB. Such as when Toneri created his Golden Wheel Rebirth Explosion or when Naruto made a Bijudama Rasenshuriken (And according to the wiki, Naruto was described as "converting" his TSB into the Bijudama Rasenshuriken attack to form it). And since its been pretty much decided that TSB's are made of energy, then that should mean that the users own Ninjutsu, which is also energy-based, when formed by the TSB's should still maintain the TSB's nullifying properties whenever it nullifies something via touch. In other words, TSB's used to form a ninjutsu attack wouldnt be like changing into a completely different property, such as Toneri's cage. It would just be taking the form/appearence of the jutsu, while still keeping its own specific properties.

• Resistance to Space-Time Manipulation (Kaguya ONLY)

-Reason and Example: Kaguya should get Resistance to Space-Time Manipulation because of her ETSB. If I can remember correctly, Kaguya's ETSB wasnt just going to destroy her pocket dimension, but rather, it was also going to erase and reset the dimensions Space-Time given BZ's claim of "It's the beginning of a new Space-Time". If that is taken seriously, then that would mean Kaguya is capable of erasing Space-Time (to a certain of extent of course as she clearly isnt capable of lets say, multiversal space-time erasure). In addition to this, given how Kaguya was going to unleash her ETSB, she and BZ both showed no signs of planning to escape the soon-to-be erased dimension when she would release the whole ETSB onto it. That would imply both weren't planning on leaving the dimension at all even when it was getting erased and if that's true, then that means Kaguya can survive in a limited Space-Time being reset. Otherwise if this wasnt the case, then we would have seen Kaguya shift to another dimension after making the ETSB or at the very least seen BZ make a suggestion of this idea to her like he has been doing for the whole fight against T7. Now of course, this resistance would be only limited to Pocket Dimensions and it would not allow Kaguya to survive a Space-Time reset in lets say a whole universe. Furthermore, this would only apply to Kaguya and NO. ONE. ELSE. since her ETSB is the only TSB that can create dimensions in the NV.

Lastly.....

• Immunty to Nullification Hax (for all So6p users/chakra holders).

-Reason and Examples: All So6P users, such as Toneri, Madara, Kaguya, etc., should have an immunty to a kind of Nullifying Hax since they can not only touch, use and manipulate TSB's, but also eve produce and create them out of their own chakra.

After all, as mentioned above, TSB's are esstentially just orbs of energy that nullify all other eneriges (Except nature energy). But if the orbs are being created by the users of them, then that would mean the users own chakra has the said nullifying properties as well (this would also support Kaguya's resistance to space-time manipulation since her ETSB was formed by her own chakra so her energy should have the immunity within it). Furthermore, users of the TSB seem to be able to do certain feats with TSB's (such as grab them, kick them, use them as weapons and shields, etc.) without being negatively affected by their own TSB's, further implying that they are (or rather should) be flat out immune to the TSB's effects.

And Examples:

• Naruto with So6P power being able to kick away a TSB casually and even use one of them as a stepping pad. Same with Sasuke. Naruto was also able to use TSB's as staffs to fight with, such as when he fought against Madara's Limbo Clones.
• Madara having a TSB staff he can hold, use for combat (he stabbed Sakura with it) and be completely fine. And also Hagoromo too I believe.
• Obito making barriers and swords out of TSB's that he can hold and hide within as well, such as the Sword of Nunoboko.
• Toneri being able to grab his own TSB's and use them to his whim, such as him creating the cage for Hinata. Even though he changed its structure via his accepted Matter Manipulation, he was still required to create and touch the said TSB. Toner could also form barriers and shields with his TSB.
• Hinata not being erased by the cage Toneri made due to having Hamura's chakra. Though since she has Hamura's chakra, who is a So6p user himself and can create TSB's out of said chakra, she would already be immune via obtaining his chakra regardless.

Are there any issues with what's been brought forth? Some of us have agreed/considered this already but it would be better to have more input, especially from other mods.

 

[Reppuzan]

1) Not sure about this. This seems somewhat speculative since Naruto's various techniques have not been shown to nullify durability despite being infused with his Six-Paths Sage chakra (otherwise, Naruto would have nullified all of Sasuke's ninjutsu techniques and punched right through him).

2) This also seems speculative since we have no idea what the ETSB would have actually done should it have been completed and it fizzled out without consequence, making it utter guess work to assume that it would truly give her this resistance to space-time hax.

3) I have to disagree with this one. From what I can remember, it's been stated numerous times in the story that the number of TSBs you can have doesn't change and the user cannot create new TSBs. This is the whole reason why Minato warped himself away with Madara's TSBs during Guy's fight against Madara, to deny the Uchiha his defensive and offensive options. In addition, it should be noted on every TSB user's profile that the users lose control over their TSBs should the TSBs leave a certain range (which Minato estimated to be 70 meters). I would simply think that the users's ability to interact with their TSBs is simply due to being their owners/allies rather than any particular resistance to hax. It doesn't help that Kishimoto is ridiculously inconsistent in this arc and thus won't pay attention to little details like this.

 

[Antvasima]

I think that Reppuzan makes sense.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

snip

1.) Well to be fair here So6p users who have used TSB's to form techniques have never been shown to use those techniques on non So6p users who are vulnerable to the TSB's so there's no way of knowing if it would or wouldnt negate the durability of non-users. The issue with your example is that Sasuke himself is a So6p user so of course the nullifying hax wouldn't work on someone with a similar chakra type. If Sasuke didnt have So6p chakra and Naruto still didnt nullify his durability, I would agree with you.

2.) Wasnt it stated by BZ that her ETSB would have erased the entire dimensions Space-Time? As well as in the DB? Im not too sure myself since its been ages since I last read the fight so I can be wrong. If I am wrong then this can be discareded completely as I made this suggestion under the impression that it was going to erase that dimensions Space-Time.

3.) With all due-respect, how would that disprove their immunity/resistance to the TSB's hax? I dont see how losing control of it after it goes a certain range away, not being able to create new ones and them "not changing" (please clarify this if you can), has anything to do with them being un-affected by the TSB's nullifying properties given them being able to change its shape/form, Naruto being able to use them as steeping pads and weapons, Obito making a whole sword out of capable of "creating the world" etc.

 

[Burning_Full_Fingers]

The only technique that Naruto used his TSB to create was Bijuudama Rasenshuriken. And I don't think he ever used it on someone directly. The only times he used it was when he destroyed Madara's meteors and cancelled out Indra's Arrow.

About Kaguya's matter, I dunno since I have little knowledge on space-time matters.

Naruto made contact with Madara's TSBs twice. Once when he kicked one away and when he attempted to blitz Madara. And Madara wasn't Naruto's ally.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Plus, wasnt Naruto holding back against Sasuke and fighting more defensively than offensively in their final fight? Considering Naruto didnt want to kill Sasuke I doubt Naruto would use something like Durability Negating.

 

[Reppuzan]

1) It still doesn't change the fact that Naruto's Techniques haven't display the properties you've described. It also can't be assumed that TSBs will retain their effects once converted, since they're ultimately an extremely specific application of all five elements and yin-yang chakra. In the end, it's just chakra, and by converting it into something else it can only be assumed that the properties of the attack will not be the same as a TSB.

2) Perhaps Black Zetsu said that, but plenty of characters can wipe out space-time in a localized area. For example, Cyberdramon from Digimon is able to tear apart, space, time, and configuration data with his attacks, but that doesn't automatically grant him immunity to space-time manipulation. Mega Man Star Force is able to do something similar, as can Gilgamesh. BB from Fate/Extra is also able to carve out reality in an area as large as a planet, but it doesn't automatically grant her immunity to space-time manipulation.

3) Another inconsistency in your theory is the fact that they needed Boruto to stab Momoshiki's Rinnegan to prevent him from absorbing their Ninjutsu techniques. If their abilities were truly able to resist nullification techniques, that would be completely and utterly unnecessary. Ultimately, I would chock up their ability to use their TSBs in that way as a part of their control over the nature of their TSBs rather than any specific resistance to nullification hax as the other characters certainly haven't shown immunity to the effects of TSBs. Kishimoto is also ridiculously inconsistent at this point, with things like Obito stealing chakra from Madara despite losing the Ten-Tails' power and Sakura punching Kaguya. He's bound to forget his own details at this point.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

snip

1.) They werent portrayed like this because Naruto has never had the chance to use those kind of techniques on non-So6p users so there's no way of knowing if they can or cannot have their durability negated or bypassed. Like mentioned above Naruto only ever used them defesively to stop attacks like Madara's meteors. And even if used offensively, they would only be used on other So6p users who would be able to resist having their durability negated. In addition, if TSB's are "just chakra" then why wouldnt they keep their specific properties if all their doing is being converted into other chakra techniques? It wouldnt be as if their becoming a whole-completely different property like when Toneri made a TSB into a cage.

2.) Yes thats true but the thing that makes this matter different than that is that Kaguya's ESTB, something formed by her own innate energy, is whats erasing the space-time and its implied Kaguya and BZ were able to survive the reset as we did not see them consider escaping the dimension before it got reset by the ETSB. And if they can survive in a place where Space-Time gets erased or reset, then what would that grant them? Maybe I worded it wrong and instead of resisting space-time manipulation its more resisting a reset of it? Regardless if this isnt to be taken seriously im fine with it being discarded.

3.) I never said their abilities can resist being nullified, im saying they themselves can resist being nullified since the users of those TSB's arent negatively affected by the TSB's nullfiying properties. And in any case, I dont think what happens in the Boruto movie can be considered canon anymore anyway since the current manga retcons it. With Momoshiki's new form we have no idea what's going to happen next.

 

[Reppuzan]

1) Because the TSBs are composed of five separate elemental natures pressed together as an extremely specific technique. The way you've said things is like saying that an alloy of titanium, aluminum, and copper will have the same properties as any of them individually. Fire doesn't have the same properties as Boil Release and Lightning Release doesn't have the same properties as Magnet Release. Thus you can't exactly correlate the individual chakra elements with TSBs. Like I said, it's highly likely that Kishimoto just forgot about the properties of TSBs since he's just playing things up for drama at this point and the fight wouldn't be as interesting if their movements were limited by their own TSBs.

2) I'm still not on board with this since the statement could have been purely to hype Kaguya up. We haven't seen another space-time ninjutsu of this scale from her to justify her being immune to a space-time reset and we can't just assume that she isn't just going to be outside of the area of effect after throwing the ETSB. Since we don't know how exactly it's going to work due to its premature end and subsequent marginalization, I still say we can't make assumptions based on the fact that Kaguya wasn't moving.

3) Even still, that further disproves your statement. Minato was able to warp away with Madara's TSB's without taking damage despite directly making contact with them as Madara attempted to use them as an attack against Guy. These same TSBs were used by Obito to shear off his arms and prevent his Regenerationn. Thus it's just another classic case of inconsistency. What exactly makes the manga more canon than the movie though? Both were written by Kishimoto and the manga hasn't caught up to the movie's ending yet.

 

[Burning_Full_Fingers]

I don't understand something. The TSBs are a combination of five elements at default. Why would it change its effect when Naruto shapes it into a Bijuudama Rasenshuriken? It was shown to create an explosion and TSBs can cause that too.

Also, wasn't Minato severely impeded by Madara's TSBs? Naruto made contact with them twice without any ill effects.

Could it be that TSBs negate Regenerationn?

 

[Reppuzan]

@Burning Full Fingers

1) The Naruto Wiki describes the Tailed Beast Ball Rasenshuriken as "converting a Truth-Seeking Ball into a Tailed Beast Ball". Tailed Beast Balls are composed of nothing but Yin-Yang Chakra while TSBs are composed of Elemental Chakra. Naruto the adds extra Wind Chakra to give it the trademark Rasenshuriken spin. Thus it only has three types of chakra and can't be compared to a TSB.

2) Exactly. He was in fact severely impeded by them, but is later able to touch and warp them away with himself with no adverse effects. This is the textbook definition of inconsistency. It's an established fact that TSBs negate Edo Tensei regen, but I don't know if it will work on others, given the fact that Guy smashed through a TSB barrier by punching Madara through it with no additional effects for either of them.

 

[Burning_Full_Fingers]

Ah, well I dunno about this one.

When did Minato ever touch them and warp them away? He teleported in front of them and he got his back riddled with them. I don't remember him touching them. Also Gai didn't make contact with Madara's TSBs in any way. If he could do so, they wouldn't do several things to make sure Madara didn't have his TSBs to use against Gai. He only punched Madara through one and Madara not being affected by one should be a given.

Anyway, others have been shown or implied to be affected by Madara's TSBs and nothing happened to Naruto twice.

Why wouldn't TSBs be able to negate others' Regenerationn?

 

[Reppuzan]

As I linked before, Minato clearly touches the TSBs before warping them away with no adverse effects. Having his back riddled with them counts as contact as an impact sounds is clearly heard. Yet the next time we see Minato, the Truth-Seeking Balls are inert and Minato hasn't taken much additional damage.

Again, I still say that this is just Kishimoto forgetting about the effects of the TSB since characters like Minato are affected by them in one scene and almost completely unaffected in another.

Because it hasn't displayed such an ability. It works by nullifying the continuous Edo Tensei technique that keeps the revived person whole.

 

[Antvasima]

I still think that Reppuzan makes sense.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

snip

1.) Actually to be more presise TSB's do not just contain elemental chakra natures they also have Yin-Yang Release. Also, while looking on the Naruto wiki, where does it say Tailed Beast Balls only have Yin-Yang Chakra? I don't see that anywhere. Actually, it doesnt say what chakra or releases the Tailed-Beast Bomb Rasenshuriken has either. So unless a link can be provided, there's no evidence that a Truth-Seeking Ball would lose it's other chakra natures when made into a jutsu. And even if it does, I dont think it would matter.The wiki states that a Truth-Seeking Ball must have Yin-Yang Release applied to it in order to have Nullyfing Hax which is the whole part of this discussion. So it wouldnt matter if they lost their other chakra natures, they are just required to have Yin-Yang Release applied to them to have their nullyfing properties. And Naruto clearly did as when he made his Bijudama Rasenshuriken he was in So6p mode.

2.) Well to be fair...we've never seen her use another Space-Time nullifying jutsu because she's never been given the chance to unleash such a jutsu, she got sealed. Also why can't it be assumed? Zetsu has been giving Kaguya ideas throughout the entire fight to make sure both would get a perfect victory. We would have seen him suggest some kind of idea in escaping if that were the case. Quite frankly, I HIGHLY doubt even Kaguya, let alone BZ, would be dumb enough to unleash a jutsu they knew they couldnt survive in and NOT escape to a safer location. The fact they decided to use such a technique without any worry or caution should suggest something.

3.) Well Minato could have teleported at speeds so fast he moved them before the Truth Seeking Balls started negating. And even if not, IIRC, Minato's jacket started to crumble from touching them and he took it off after that to defend himself, much like when Sakura was hit with Kaguya's acid and she took her jacket off before it could harm her. Also im pretty sure the manga is more canon as with Momoshiki's new form, scenes that weren't shown in the movie and other things that are starting to retcon it. Much like DBS and the BoG movie being retconned so we take DBS as more canon.

 

[Burning_Full_Fingers]

But Minato not taking much additional damage doesn't mean he didn't take damage at all. Which is what I'm trying to convey for Naruto's case since he wasn't affected at all. Others have been shown taking damage from them. Obito used it on Hashirama and Tobirama and he used it on Minato like you said above. He also used it to vaporize the top half of Hiruzen's body. Madara used it to rip Minato apart (around the time that Kakashi and Obito used Kamui in tandem). They took special measures to make sure Gai didn't get hit with them. But it didn't affect Naruto or damage him at all.

I don't understand what you mean here. What do TSBs have to do with Edo Tensei? I mean, what continuous Edo Tensei technique are you talking about?

 

[Reppuzan]

1) Yin-Yang Release is added to TSBs after their creation to allow them to nullify ninjutsu based techniques, not before. In addition, Tailed-Beast Balls are explicitly stated to be composed of an exactly 8:2 ratio of black (Yang) to white (Yin) Chakra. No more, no less. There's no elemental chakra at all in there. By converting it into a Tailed Beast Bomb, he's inserting nothing but Yin and Yang Chakra along with Wind Element Chakra to make a Rasenshuriken. While Yin and Yang Chakra is what gives the TSBs their nullification properties, Tailed Beast Bombs do not have this property, as they have been clearly deflected by Kurama.

2) Who's to say that she wouldn't just throw it and Amenominaka out? She can do it nigh-instantaneously right after she throws it. Your entire argument is based on the idea that she has to tank it despite an ability that allow her to escape it in an instant.

3) Even if what you said was correct, it doesn't change the fact that the TSBs should have bored a hole through Minato given his nature as an Edo Tensei reincarnation and how easily the TSBs tore through his arm. I also don't remember there being any indication that TSB users keep Yin-Yang Chakra on their TSBs at all times as it's an optional add-on.

 

[Burning_Full_Fingers]

@Reppuzan

I'm not sure but are you addressing that first point to me?

She used all her chakra to create her last attack and Zetsu mentioned that Amenominaka takes a lot of chakra so I'm not seeing how she would have used that to escape.

The TSBs created holes in Minato's body as they were lodged in it. It doesn't necessarily have to bore through his body. Also, sorry but I don't know understand what you're trying to say with the Yin-Yang issue.

 

[Reppuzan]

@Burning Full Fingers

I was addressing the first point to Kukui.

It should also be noted that Kaguya can fly. What's stopping her from flying out of the blast radius of her own attack?

As I've stated at least three or four times already, Yin-Yang Chakra is an optional add-on and is what provides the TSBs nullification effect. If Naruto was that worried about getting other people hurt by touching them, he could have simply removed the Yin-Yang Chakra and it would have been fine.

 

[Burning_Full_Fingers]

Okay.

She needs chakra to fly which she wouldn't have after using the ETSB. She would have to wait for it to recharge.

I'm getting confused. I'm talking about Madara's TSB not working on Naruto twice. Not about him using them as a platform for Sasuke to stand on.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

snip

1.) What does it matter if its after or before the TSB's are made? They still have to be passively added onto the TSB's themselves to nullify anything. Furthermore, just because he is esserting Yin, Yang and Wind chakra shouldnt change anything. To nullify anything, all the TSB's even need are Yin-Yang Release. Why would they need the other 5 elemental natures when all its required purpose is to have Nullifying hax? They just get all 5 elemental natures automatically the moment they're produced. It having or missing the other natures should be irrelevant when it only needs the 2 non-elemental natures to get the job done. Furthermore, of course Tailed Beasts Bombs wouldnt have the same ability for having the same releases as you need to have So6p chakra to use TSBs. Naruto didnt even get the ability to wield the Yin-Yang Release until after he got so6p chakra anyways So idk where the Tailed Beast Bombs white/black chakra being Yin-Yang Release is coming from. Also when did Kurama do that?

2.) Maybe BZ? If they (or she) were really going to do that we would have seen BZ suggest it to her, just like he has been suggesting tactics to Kaguya for the entire fight. Plus don't forget Kaguya using Amenominika uses a tremendous amount of Chakra. She has been using it multiple times from the start anyway plus she was using even more chakra to make the ETSB. I highly doubt she would have had enough chakra to insta-port out after throwing it, otherwise we would have seen BZ suggest it to her.

3.) Maybe but there's still the option of Minato teleporting so fast he moved them before they could ever negate him. Plus, refering to your earlier comment, going out of range will make the TSB's go out of a persons control. What's stopping us from claiming Minato didnt just go far beyond the 70 meter range in order to make the TSB's non controllable from Madara, thus preventing them from doing any Negating like he planned to do?

 

[Antvasima]

@Kukui This is apparently not going to be accepted. I would appreciate if you stop being overly argumentative with the staff, and permanently drop these issues. Thank you.