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Toda Mikoku vs Mu Dan
- Thread starter DontTalkDT
- Start date
- 7,677
- 1,373
How do both fight?
Does Mu Dan's EE affect equipment/items on/in the body or just the body?
What concepts does Toda typically have applied to her swords and space, and how quickly can/would she activate that space?
If Mu Dan starts with EE hand flick before the concept space is active, and that EE affects equipment/items on/in the body as well as the opponent, then it seems like Mu Dan would win.
If the concept space is quicker to activate and Toda starts with something like canceling perception, then it seems like she would win easily.
Does Mu Dan's EE affect equipment/items on/in the body or just the body?
What concepts does Toda typically have applied to her swords and space, and how quickly can/would she activate that space?
If Mu Dan starts with EE hand flick before the concept space is active, and that EE affects equipment/items on/in the body as well as the opponent, then it seems like Mu Dan would win.
If the concept space is quicker to activate and Toda starts with something like canceling perception, then it seems like she would win easily.
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- Thread starter
- #3
Don't know for Mu Dan.
Philosopher stone usually needs no set up of a concept space and can just activate the concepts when she thinks she wants to use them.
She makes quick use of the concepts she has. She used the world reversal concept when attacked, objects fall down to dodge and no mutual understanding as offense. All within the first moves of her battle.
She also uses stat increase concepts to boost her speed and makes use of the future prediction of 8th Gear.
In general she probably would use all of the concepts she has. It's just that the only person she battles with the concept swords happens to be the only person in the universe that can destroy concepts, making use of concepts somewhat useless and hence not as well documented.
Philosopher stone usually needs no set up of a concept space and can just activate the concepts when she thinks she wants to use them.
She makes quick use of the concepts she has. She used the world reversal concept when attacked, objects fall down to dodge and no mutual understanding as offense. All within the first moves of her battle.
She also uses stat increase concepts to boost her speed and makes use of the future prediction of 8th Gear.
In general she probably would use all of the concepts she has. It's just that the only person she battles with the concept swords happens to be the only person in the universe that can destroy concepts, making use of concepts somewhat useless and hence not as well documented.
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I'll vote for Toda for now. It seems like she has a lot of ways to win this fairly easily and quickly, and her predictions and her swords' reactive evolution will make it even easier as time goes on.
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Huh... I honestly feel Toda's profile could use some updates
Like, one of the concepts is of the creation of fire, but doesn't have Fire Manipulation. One of them allows her to outright do a kumagawa and erase time to travel distances instantly or do shit in a second, but she doesn't have Pseudo-Teleportation/Pseudo-Timestop. She even has like 2 or 3 abilities that Ignore Durability, like stopping everything in sight and making it crumble plus fire that burns anything as if it was paper no matter what. Also Perception Manipulation or something similar with the "No mutual understanding" concept, Paralysis Inducement with "There is only truth" concept and Power Modification with "Abilities Reversed" concept. Maybe Space Manipulation with "Everything Leads to One Point" concept? She doesn't even have Regenerationn Negation either.
Like, one of the concepts is of the creation of fire, but doesn't have Fire Manipulation. One of them allows her to outright do a kumagawa and erase time to travel distances instantly or do shit in a second, but she doesn't have Pseudo-Teleportation/Pseudo-Timestop. She even has like 2 or 3 abilities that Ignore Durability, like stopping everything in sight and making it crumble plus fire that burns anything as if it was paper no matter what. Also Perception Manipulation or something similar with the "No mutual understanding" concept, Paralysis Inducement with "There is only truth" concept and Power Modification with "Abilities Reversed" concept. Maybe Space Manipulation with "Everything Leads to One Point" concept? She doesn't even have Regenerationn Negation either.
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- Thread starter
- #6
Fire and Time and Power Modification are an oversight. Durability Negation... well, if you want to have it listed.
Perception Manipulation is part of mind manip (it doesn't technically prevent perception it just prevents understanding).
Only Truth is technically not paralysis or at least paralysis is just a subtype of the effect. It stops whatever makes deception which goes even further than paralyzing a person. Though I guess making stuff freeze in place can be listed as paralysis inducement.
She has spatial manipulation.
I forgot about Regenerationn negation, cause that's the one ability she has that Noah actually doesn't... Yeah, we can add that.
Perception Manipulation is part of mind manip (it doesn't technically prevent perception it just prevents understanding).
Only Truth is technically not paralysis or at least paralysis is just a subtype of the effect. It stops whatever makes deception which goes even further than paralyzing a person. Though I guess making stuff freeze in place can be listed as paralysis inducement.
She has spatial manipulation.
I forgot about Regenerationn negation, cause that's the one ability she has that Noah actually doesn't... Yeah, we can add that.
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Dura neg feels like one of those things that are better listed just so people know since checking everything isn't the usual for everyone.
Touche.
It should still be listed in someway, at least, even with another ability if not paralysis. And though it ain't quite paralysis, works pretty similar. Not sure if something else fits more.
Yeh, realized after the fact but was responding to something else and couldn't edit. Sounds fine then. Is not just for documentation, I just feel people may end up with a lacking idea of what Toda can do just going off the P&As list.
Back to the topic though, whether Toda can win depends if she has anything to actually destroy Mu's Tandem in the first place. Otherwise, I believe Mid-High leads to an incon. Though, not sure if Mu can do anything considering some of the concept stuff.
Touche.
It should still be listed in someway, at least, even with another ability if not paralysis. And though it ain't quite paralysis, works pretty similar. Not sure if something else fits more.
Yeh, realized after the fact but was responding to something else and couldn't edit. Sounds fine then. Is not just for documentation, I just feel people may end up with a lacking idea of what Toda can do just going off the P&As list.
Back to the topic though, whether Toda can win depends if she has anything to actually destroy Mu's Tandem in the first place. Otherwise, I believe Mid-High leads to an incon. Though, not sure if Mu can do anything considering some of the concept stuff.
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- Thread starter
- #8
Stillness concept would probably incap at least.
And ability reversal should also screw over immortality effects.
Reversed Concept of Betrayed Expectations is also a likely candidate to work.
Edit: Her live carving 2nd Gear stuff could maybe work as well.
And ability reversal should also screw over immortality effects.
Reversed Concept of Betrayed Expectations is also a likely candidate to work.
Edit: Her live carving 2nd Gear stuff could maybe work as well.
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Hmmmmm....
Good points. Lemme just tap Witch with this match to see if he can provide his opinion. He seems to know Mu well and have no clue who else is knowledgeable.
Good points. Lemme just tap Witch with this match to see if he can provide his opinion. He seems to know Mu well and have no clue who else is knowledgeable.
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Ah, eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeh...
You summoned me to some serious heresy Lancelot-kun, not gonna lie.
Right so, her going concept space is in character right? Does only she benefit positivly from the concepts or does anyone? What Concepts are in character and what lethal concepts does she possess?
Regardless, if she dosn't job horribly enough for Mu Dan to land a single hit, i don't see how Mu Dan kills her otherwise. Breaking her down into Tao would work, but its not totally in character for Mu Dan to do so against humans. Might be, the younger they are, because hes only interessted in their Tao, being bigger the older and more trained in it a individual is, and how SBA works in this case. Because the only reason Mu Dan dosnt just nilly willy erases people is because he want to harvest their Tao (And living humans can be milked out of it better)
You summoned me to some serious heresy Lancelot-kun, not gonna lie.
Right so, her going concept space is in character right? Does only she benefit positivly from the concepts or does anyone? What Concepts are in character and what lethal concepts does she possess?
Regardless, if she dosn't job horribly enough for Mu Dan to land a single hit, i don't see how Mu Dan kills her otherwise. Breaking her down into Tao would work, but its not totally in character for Mu Dan to do so against humans. Might be, the younger they are, because hes only interessted in their Tao, being bigger the older and more trained in it a individual is, and how SBA works in this case. Because the only reason Mu Dan dosnt just nilly willy erases people is because he want to harvest their Tao (And living humans can be milked out of it better)
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Not to mention I am genuinely curious. Please don't curse me, Witch.
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- Thread starter
- #12
Yeah, using concepts is the normal thing for any character in the verse to do.
Concepts vary a bit in who they apply to. Some apply to every person in range. Strength is Infinite for example boosts everyones strength and Names Provide Power gives everyone power corresponding to their name.
Other are only adventagous for the user. Betrayed Expectations, Concept of Stillness, Flame of Motion and No Mutual Understanding are examples of that type.
Even for the concepts that also help others Mikoku has one critical advantage, though: She can activate them at will and knows what they do. Hence Names Provide Power would for example likely be useless for her opponent, since he doesn't know he has that power.
She likely uses all her concepts. Since her only opponent in that state could destroy concepts we haven't see her use the full barrage, though.
In the fight she used "The World is reversed for an Instant", "Objects fall down" and "There is no mutual understanding" within the first exchange of blows. In addition she used the "Heat into Life Concept" in order to make her swords predict the enemies move.
Concepts that are probably lethal or incapatitating for Mu Dan should be: "Stillness Concept", "Abilities are reversed", Reversed "Concept of betrayed expectations", likely "Names Provide Power" and the "Mind Control Concept".
Concepts vary a bit in who they apply to. Some apply to every person in range. Strength is Infinite for example boosts everyones strength and Names Provide Power gives everyone power corresponding to their name.
Other are only adventagous for the user. Betrayed Expectations, Concept of Stillness, Flame of Motion and No Mutual Understanding are examples of that type.
Even for the concepts that also help others Mikoku has one critical advantage, though: She can activate them at will and knows what they do. Hence Names Provide Power would for example likely be useless for her opponent, since he doesn't know he has that power.
She likely uses all her concepts. Since her only opponent in that state could destroy concepts we haven't see her use the full barrage, though.
In the fight she used "The World is reversed for an Instant", "Objects fall down" and "There is no mutual understanding" within the first exchange of blows. In addition she used the "Heat into Life Concept" in order to make her swords predict the enemies move.
Concepts that are probably lethal or incapatitating for Mu Dan should be: "Stillness Concept", "Abilities are reversed", Reversed "Concept of betrayed expectations", likely "Names Provide Power" and the "Mind Control Concept".
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So yea, Toda for DontTalks reasons. Please tell me shes at least a high tier in her verse.
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I am pretty sure she's the single strongest thing in her verse if I remember right.
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Toda FRA
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