ToAru Physical Stats Revision (Low to Mid Tiers) - Let's Fix That Scaling

[XDragnoir]

Arei points out immediately that Junko holds back on her power-enhancing ability because she doesn't like turning humans into mush.

Makes no sense, Junko has done feats without using 100% of her power, including a 9A and an 8C feat and we were arguing Arei would scale to those because Junko's output not being at full release is nothing new, you just literally left this information out, we've discussed at length above how Junko has showcased a casual, a serious and a full strength release, it's not more complicated than this and scaling to her feats done at casual release is entirely viable (if not the 8C one, then the 9A one, idc anymore)

Before we get to more supportive feats for 9-A, I want to bring up some anti-feats. I already said that in general those characters aren't bullet proof. But let me list a few more (main of the primary protagonist Kamijou Touma.)

First, Touma is by explanation of the author is supposed to be a regular human and loses in practice against regular soldiers.

First, bullets? For real? How many characters in fiction who have no business being hurt are constantly damaged or even killed by those? The same goes to your argument about the 200m fall.

Second, by that same author Touma has survived things no human could, dodged things no human could and sometimes he punches harder than what most humans can (when he sends people flying).

Now one could say that the soldier specifically chocked him, but a) a thousands of time stronger character should be able to free himself and b) the author clearly said in the prior quote that those people just are stronger than him.

That would mean the soldier scales to Touma, not like it was a random soldier anyway, the moment we're talking about named characters any "they're normal people" is completely out of the window when they start to get scaling to the main cast, you're literally doing scaling backwards here)... and I am sure this is fight Fanta explained never happened and was all just an illusion.

Several magicians that have superhuman physical stats are known to have them through magic. That includes each of the 20 saints, the Valkyries, Carissa, Amakusa, Tatamiya, Knights, Knight Leader, Thor, Itsuwa and so on and so forth.

You like to bring how spells don't scale around even for their own users (as you just did for Tatemiya's ice spell) but you're really quick to scale completely different mechanics to characters that have never stated to use such mechanics.

Saints are Saints, they have a completely unique reason for it, Valkyries are magical experiments, Knights use a magical armor, KL and Carissa are "constantly" powered by Telesma (KL when not powered by Telesma is a saint-tier magician, he's on a level of his own just like Saints themselves). Not sure about Amakusa's but Tatemiya's defensive spells aren't passive.

A possibility based on nothing is as good as an impossibility, or conjecture, or whatever else, it's just not a valid option.

Damn, Aleister is the "best magician" and he doesn't have any kind of passive defensive ability like you're arguing Vento does, how can you genuinely say that Vento has something Kamachi NEVER brought up? At least bring something about her clothes being special or something like that if you want to argue this.


This will more than likely be my last post here, don't bother yourself with answering everything.

At this point, just downgrade everyone to 10B or 10A and leave it at that.

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

Okay, first off... What the frick, DT. You could've literally just made a userblog at this point or a short sum-up post because this word vomit is too much for my eyes to handle... Anyways... Lets get to work.

---

Some Anti-Feats​

Noir already explained a lot of my issues with this point, but I also want point, well... nothing honestly, you are literally just repeating the same points over-and-over to the point it makes me want to crush my keyboard (jk). Most of these anti-feats... are literally just anti-feats or things that only happened because PIS is a thing and authors need to put their characters in danger to establish tension. Or we can explain it away by establishing the people who affected Touma simply scaling to him... like literally how every other piece of fiction works on this site.

And with Awaki... Doesn't she have the trauma of literally teleporting her wall inside of a wall to deal with... and with Hamazura (and Misaka by technicality) don't they have the feat of physically enduring Mugino's blows, who could one-shot a tiger as of ITEM Vol 1?

Vento Tanks a Missile​

Ahem... As Noir said.

You like to bring how spells don't scale around even for their own users (as you just did for Tatemiya's ice spell) but you're really quick to scale completely different mechanics to characters that have never stated to use such mechanics.

Saints are Saints, they have a completely unique reason for it, Valkyries are magical experiments, Knights use a magical armor, KL and Carissa are "constantly" powered by Telesma (KL when not powered by Telesma is a saint-tier magician, he's on a level of his own just like Saints themselves). Not sure about Amakusa's but Tatemiya's defensive spells aren't passive.

A possibility based on nothing is as good as an impossibility, or conjecture, or whatever else, it's just not a valid option.

Damn, Aleister is the "best magician" and he doesn't have any kind of passive defensive ability like you're arguing Vento does, how can you genuinely say that Vento has something Kamachi NEVER brought up? At least bring something about her clothes being special or something like that if you want to argue this.

To expand on the Amasuka for a bit... All of the defensive spell they performed either required them to cast them on the spot and consciously activated as shown with Tatemiya or be prepared before a battle even happens as shown in OT16.

But yes... the fact that some of the greatest magicians in the series - Aleister and Mathers and literally all of the Golden, who are literally the greatest normal magicians we have seen so far - never shown this type of passive defensive ability and in fact required some activate defense on-hand kinda stops the idea of an almost run-of-the-mill magician having a passive defense ability that the greatest magician never got despite their immense strenght and years they have lived.

Thor throws an overpass​

... Okay, why are you entirely the entirety of their first fight in the dinner?

Spoiler: Dinner Battle

“If it’s really just that you’re afraid of choosing…”

Thor spoke.

“If it’s really just that you’re afraid of having to deal with the consequences of your decision.”

Thor took a step closer.

“If that is your reason for abandoning someone, then you are a true villain.”

It came in a horizontal strike.

The bluish-white beam of light grew to about the size of a sword and mercilessly flew towards Kamijou’s neck. The beam explosively expanded. The scattered light melted a toppled table like it was cheese and set some burger wrappers on fire.

But…

That electric arc that could slice through a metal plate over 10 cm thick like it was the paper of a goldfish scoop did not decapitate Kamijou Touma.

This was thanks to his right hand.

Kamijou Touma’s Imagine Breaker blew away the light blade that Thor had used.

“You’re taking me too lightly,” Kamijou said clearly while breathing heavily. “I never had any kind of overarching plan either!!”

Just as it looked like another bluish-white beam of light would appear from Thor’s fingertips, Kamijou dashed over and grabbed his right wrist. The blade that could slice through steel disappeared before it could fully form.

Kamijou did not wait.

While Thor was distracted by the vanished blade, Kamijou slammed his knee into his gut.

“Gh…gah!!”

“All I hear is you shouting out whatever crap you like. What I don’t like is when I do what I want and someone else uses it to their own ends in some completely different place!!”

With his bent knee still digging into Thor’s gut, Kamijou swung his head forward and slammed it into Thor’s head.

A dull noise rang out.

“I would stop a fight. Or I would save a crying girl. That was enough for me, but everyone else wouldn’t stop carrying on and would eventually lead it to some completely different conclusion!! If 1 plus 1 equaled 2, there wouldn’t be a problem. The problem is that it somehow ends up equaling negative 5 or negative 10!! Will this really end up saving Fräulein Kreutune!? Well!? Will it!?”

When he saw that the magician was unsteady on his feet, Kamijou let go of his right wrist and swung his own clenched fist toward the magician’s nose.

But Thor blocked it with his left arm.

At the same time, Thor tried to use a leg to sweep Kamijou’s feet out from under him. Instead, Kamijou stomped down on the lightning god’s foot.

“I’m sick of trying to save someone and only causing more suffering as a result!! That’s why I want to be properly prepared before taking action! Why don’t you understand that!?”

“Now you’ve said it…” muttered Thor.

He grabbed Kamijou’s collar with both hands.

He lifted Kamijou’s entire body up.

Kamijou’s feet left the floor.

“Is that why you end up never taking action at all? Because they don’t have some grand title? Because you don’t know them? Because you don’t recognize them? Because you’ve never met them? …You’re wrong, Kamijou Touma. You just gave your own answer. You just showed what stage you’re having trouble with. Just realize it already, you dumb bastard!!”

He slammed Kamijou’s back to the ground.

In all seriousness, Kamijou’s breathing stopped for an instant.

And then Thor’s fist fell down upon Kamijou’s face two or three times.

Kamijou did not even know how many blows he had received before he managed to twist his body and just barely avoid Thor’s next blow.

After that, the situation grew utterly confused.

They were both trying to get on top so they could keep the other from moving, but even that simple goal grew uncertain partway through. They would punch, be punched, and then punch again. As the exchange of blows continued, all their complex thoughts were torn from their minds.

It was unclear what exactly caused it, but Kamijou and Thor both suddenly stopped their scuffle. The right third of Kamijou’s vision was blurred. He had no idea how Thor had fared, but he was a member of Gremlin. He surely could have used several pieces of magic that would blow away the entire fast food restaurant. He must have had a reason for not doing so.

As he breathed heavily, Thor asked his question once more.

“So do you want to help her or not?”

“If she really is suffering,” replied Kamijou while ignoring the people watching on from a distance. “But if you are trying to use me for your own ends like Leivinia Birdway and Kihara Kagun, prepare yourself. I will rescue Fräulein Kreutune even if I have to crush your plan.”

Hearing that, Thor gave a thin smile.

“Do as you wish.”

“?”

“I am taking action tonight. You choose whatever you think the best option is to save Fräulein Kreutune. It doesn’t matter to me if that is to help me or oppose me. …As long as you end up saving Fräulein Kreutune in the end, I don’t care what your methods are.”

Thor placed his hand atop a table that was still standing and wrote something on a paper napkin using a bluish-white beam of light. He showed Kamijou the writing burned into the napkin before tossing it aside. The paper napkin caught fire around the writing and burned away, leaving no trace of the information written there.

He turned his back on Kamijou and spoke softly.

“I will be there. You should be able to use that information to your advantage whether you plan to help me or oppose me.”

They literally made an exchange of blows each other - with Thor explictly landing several punches while Touma was helpless - until they were backed off and chose to focus on an important issue. In the end of their second fight, Thor used Almighty Thor, a spell that literally moves Thor to the spot he would "win" and Thor attacked a weakened Touma from a blind spot, so eh. Thor's sterngthening magic also literally can't be anything but passive since it was attached to a piece of equipment that he wore, a belt, and wasn't seen preping any spell before Silvia landed her attack - Touma likely wouldn't be able to negate the effect either unless he touched the belt, so eh. Also, smth smth, you don't become bullet-proof until you are 8-B because piercing damage, from what I know.

Salome Killing Elements​

First off, they are 8-C for damaging the AAA, which Dura is 8-C. Second, the mere fact the Kamisato faction could deal any scratch damage to the Elements, and not just break their fists on impact, implies since scaling ability, especially with the line of, "they used brute strength to defeat a monster over fifty times their size. It seemed to entirely ignore the rules of nature", in the novel. Also, the destroying a building by breaking down walls thingy doesn't work when the only way to bring down the elements was by destroying the limbs making them stand. On to Salome... We never see her carrying a bag filled with weapons and using it on-screen, we never see her consume any weapons of her allies on-screen in NT16 and we never get any hints or implication that she was boosted - so we can't assume she was boosted in the first place.

Touma Tanks Tatemiya's attack​

Issue, and I don't know how the flying **** you keep ignoring this, but a fricking 2000-3000 degree celsius flame sword will pierce through a person's body - especially when they don't have any heat resistance like Touma, this is simple f-ing logic and you keep ignoring this. That's it. Also, I want to point out that Tatemiya likely thought Touma was a magician at this point of time, considering the fact he was Stiyl's ally and fighting alongside the Agnese forces, so this "real magical fatal blow" would be for a magician instead of a normal human in Tatemiya's eyes.

---

Everything else... Noir said it well enough. Especially regarding Junko and Arei... Goodness, I am about ******* done with this thread in all honesty, DT. You keep using the same arguements and headcanon abilities that are never mentioned or implied to exist over-and-over to the point that I am done with this thread and now you are trying to bull-rush all of the mods to your side via sheer word vomit. Can't even tell if I am mad or just tired now. Gah...

---

For The Mods

1. DT keeps insisting on the existence of a passive magic spell that boost physical stats by using various people who feature such magic, but the examples he used are, well... Saints are people who are biologically superhuman, Valkiryes are lab experiements (or contrusctions created by a H1-C God Tier), Knights use magical set of armor, Thor uses a magical belt and Knight Leader and Carissa are boosted by a stat-amping energy that can only be used via a magic sword... i.e, a majority of the stat amp people have special circumstances or unique equipment to 'em. And the best and greatest human magicians of the series don't have access to such a spell
2. DT keeps insisting on anti-feats... that can be reasonably explained as well... PIS anti-feats (bullets and large falls) moments, CIS anti-feat (Awaki unable to pull her foot out due to the trauma of teleporting her leg inside of a wall) or just be explained entirely as a person just scaling to another person (the solider that knocked out Touma by choking him out while he was distracted)
3. Everything else... Well, DT has some good points, i.e, pointing out the issue in my calcs and Tobio scalin' to no one, but he made some bad points such as ignoring the existence of Thor and Touma's first fight, ignoring the fact that a 2000-3000 degrees C flame sword would totally pierce a person without heat resistance, assuming a character is boosted despite the fact it is never mentioned or implied that she was (and the narrative and character themselves say otherwise)... and you get my issues.

 

[Deagonx]

@DontTalkDT I haven't gotten into tackling this yet, but I was notified of FantaRin's latest comment. I politely request that, for the time being, you allow her the last word on the matter so that myself and potentially other staff can realistically try and tackle this. If it is the case that the counterpoints are persuasive, give us the opportunity to reach that conclusion first and prompt you for a potential response before we get drowned in word count.

I don't know who, if anyone, is also participating in this discussion, but I ask the same of them as well.

 

[DontTalkDT]

@DontTalkDT I haven't gotten into tackling this yet, but I was notified of FantaRin's latest comment. I politely request that, for the time being, you allow her the last word on the matter so that myself and potentially other staff can realistically try and tackle this. If it is the case that the counterpoints are persuasive, give us the opportunity to reach that conclusion first and prompt you for a potential response before we get drowned in word count.

I don't know who, if anyone, is also participating in this discussion, but I ask the same of them as well.

Yeah, that was my plan anyway. The point of calling in staff was to end the debate, although I hoped that all arguments were on the table before I made the summary...
Anyway, I don't plan to continue the debate unless absolutely necessary.

Staff should, of course, feel very free to ask questions for more context or my opinion on anything that contradicts what I said, though.

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

Holy heck guys.......
Well, I'll try to get to this as soon as I can, but given the length of those posts, as well as my unfamiliarity with the verse, it'll likely take me a while.

 

[Deagonx]

When I started writing this I was quoting entire sections of DT's argument, but in the middle I realized it was getting too long, so I am just going to compress the quotes into descriptions of the feat/point being discussed.

I will say up front, I have not watched or read this series. In fact, I haven't heard of it before this, so I am just going on what each user said.

DT's Points:

Base Arei/Junko: I agree with DT. The fact that Junko is explicitly stated to be holding back and not taking the fight seriously makes it useless for scaling, and it really looks like Arei is just sort of getting her ass kicked here, so.
Enhance Arei/Junko: I agree, the propensity for Junko holding back makes her initial struggling more likely to just be a hiccup in the application of her power, then she realizes Arei is stronger and flattens her. I don't think it scales to the feat much.
Kuroko/Arei: Again, agree with DT. Arei was weakened, Kuroko doubted her ability to match her otherwise.
Anti-Feats: These all strike me as significant, but since it's not presented as the basis for a conclusion, I can't say I agree or disagree here.
Touma Explosion: I am not qualified to assess calc issues. DT is, so I trust his judgment, but I can't actually vote on this.
Touma/Tatemiya: I agree with DT's reasoning. Given the explanation given for how magic works, it is impossible to say that all of a characters attacks are the same strength, and the counter-argument about Styll's attacking being able to run directly through Touma makes the attempted scaling illogical.
Touma/Thor: I agree with DT, the feat doesn't scale.
Element Scaling: I agree with DT. It basically describes this group as slowly compromising the Element through "death by a thousand cuts." This would be like scaling base Aang and Katara to the Fire Nation drill because they spent a bunch of time weakening the girders. You can't scale them to this. They would need to be able to do it in one blow, not "blade after blade."
Touma/Vento: Pretty simple. I've seen like five characters up to this point enhance themselves with magic. Regardless of whether we know this explicitly with Vento, we shouldn't scale Touma to it given the immense uncertainty.
Itsuwa/Terra: Seems pretty simple. If he didn't say the chant then that probably wasn't the type of attack he used, and Touma straight up says it would kill him. Agree with DT.
Tobio: Easy agree. It'd be stupid to scale anyone to this if they haven't fought Tobio.

So, to summarize, I agree with basically all of DT's arguments whilst being neutral on the calc validity of the explosion feat. I can see how the inherent complexity of this verse obfuscates the details that compromise our ability to scale these characters that way. But, at the time that I am writing this sentence, I have not read the responses from the supporters. I will do so now.


XDragnoir's Points:

Junko's Other Feats: Haven't seen the feats, don't know why or if they should scale. @DontTalkDT can you explain?
Anti-feat Rebuttals: I didn't use the anti-feats to form any conclusion, so I will skip this for now unless it becomes relevant later.
Vento: Regardless of whether Vento is stated to have such a mechanic, it is widespread in the verse and my understanding based on DT's post is that Vento does not have directly scaling to other characters, so I am not inclined to think it's relevant.

FantaRin's Points:
Vento: This appears to be the same as Dragnoir, so I defer to my response above.
Passive Thor Belt: Not necessarily the case. Equipment powers are not always passive.
Elements: I don't know what the AAA is, I cannot comment on that. However:

One was a girl in a suit of armor who wielded several swords, spears, and axes ...
... But none of it hit. Instead of keeping their distance or flying into the sky, the girls moved as close to the monster as they could, prevented it from moving, and cut off the carnivorous inchworm’s view to create blind spots. The girls sometimes slipped between its legs, circled behind it, ran up on top of it, and passed blade after blade through it.
To a hundred meter Element, a blade wielded by a human was nothing more than a toothpick.
But definite cracks formed. And they spread and grew.
By some twist of physics, the giant form fell apart even though they used no poison, electric currents, or bloodsucking.

I get the strong impression upon reading this that these girls used their agility to avoid the Elements attacks while slowly compromising it with attacks that were relatively small/insignificant to the Element, but which added up to accumulate to defeating the monster. I categorically reject using this to scale any of these girls to one of these massive beasts destroying a house.

The Heat of Stiyl's Sword which, if likened to Taco Bell sauce packets, is easily "Diablo" level or higher: I'm not familiar with the interaction of extreme heat and how it might negate durability, but I had other problems with this scaling aside from the Stiyl antifeat, so I suppose it is somewhat moot.

Overall though, it's clear that I strongly agree with DontTalk.

 

[Damage3245]

I'm a bit busy with another verse at the moment but if I get some time in the next day or two I'll go through that colossal summary above.

 

[GunTish]

Elements: I don't know what the AAA is, I cannot comment on that. However:

This is the AAA.

 

[XDragnoir]

Junko's Other Feats: Haven't seen the feats, don't know why or if they should scale. @DontTalkDT can you explain?

Railgun Manga Feat Calculation Part 13

vsbattles.fandom.com

Younger Junko did the feat above without any indication she used her full power (or was even serious).

To support this we have the 8C feat which also was explicitly not a serious Junko and the fact her Esper power and physique in general would be stronger now than they were before.

To which DT main argument to debunk is Junko's "varying outputs" even tho we have no confirmed % changes from each release (casual, serious and full) so arguing they're not comparable is arguing in bad faith IMO (not like the feats were done at Full Power anyway) nor do we have any reason to believe her power when attacking a wall is 8C but attacking a human is 9B (mainly because she has indeed used her Serious and Full Power output against people and it's not like they exploded or something like that).

Anti-feat Rebuttals: I didn't use the anti-feats to form any conclusion, so I will skip this for now unless it becomes relevant later.

Fair enough.

Vento: Regardless of whether Vento is stated to have such a mechanic, it is widespread in the verse and my understanding based on DT's post is that Vento does not have directly scaling to other characters, so I am not inclined to think it's relevant.

It's not widespread, first and foremost only very, very specific things are widespread in Toaru's magic (breathing control, people clearing fields, a few others) so I can just literally give you 2 examples to each of DT's own examples where magicians simply don't have any magical protection at all... did you read my post? Literally only one of his examples isn't character specific and that's the Amakusa Group (with their profile not even explaining why they have higher dura with magic and Itsuwa and Tatemiya, the main Amakusa members we've info, have no passive dura amps).

Touma punched the damn out of Vento, he scales.

 

[XDragnoir]

The only reason to even consider this supportive evidence is that Tobio has no known mechanism for superhuman physical stats (assuming we do not assume she uses her psychic power) and hence other characters that also lack that would be comparable due to all being "normal humans". It's an immense stretch to use that to scale to begin with, but the way she decimates those armoured police officers basically proves that she is not regular person level anyway.

Tobio: Easy agree. It'd be stupid to scale anyone to this if they haven't fought Tobio.

First, even if it can't be used for scaling it adds for the consistency of the characters (even lower level physical fighters) having such feats/tier, because even if she was using her wind control to boost her speed (therefore AP) she has no known way to boost her dura and obviously the superhumans can have this as support as they have

Second, I can see an argument for those that are explicitly superhuman (HT Arei, Komaba, Kinuhata, etc) to scale directly to this feat because anyone explicitly above the human limit would need to be stronger than this feat which was done by a normal human

 

[DontTalkDT]

Bump, I guess?
Ah, just let me call in some more staff.

@Andytrenom, @Wokistan, @Elizhaa, @Qawsedf234, @ByAsura, @Sir_Ovens , @Starter_Pack, @Abstractions, @LordGriffin1000, @Colonel_Krukov, @SamanPatou, @GyroNutz, @Everything12, @Maverick_Zero_X, @Crabwhale, @Just_a_Random_Butler, @JustSomeWeirdo, @Theglassman12, @Eficiente, @DarkGrath, @Moritzva, @DemonGodMitchAubin, @Duedate8898, @Planck69, @KingTempest, @CrimsonStarFallen, @LordTracer, @Emirp sumitpo, @EliminatorVenom, @Lonkitt, @LephyrTheRevanchist, @FinePoint, @Elizio33, @Dereck03

Here is the thing that requires evaluation and here is the one staff evaluation we have at this point.

 

[Deagonx]

We should only need on more staff evaluation, as yours counts. It would not be unprecedented to apply it as is if no one else is able to evaluate it, given that this is not an especially large or popular verse.

 

[Qawsedf234]

As limited as my understanding of engineering is, I'm quite certain it uses yield strength wrong

Yield strength is basically the amount of energy that would change steel from an elastic to a plastic. Plastic means that the material can not rebound to its original shape.

Rapid impacts would be something else I think.

The scaling stuff looks fine I guess.

 

[DontTalkDT]

The scaling stuff looks fine I guess.

Can you elaborate on what you mean?
Like, do you mean it looks fine in the sense that my arguments against scaling sound fine or do you mean it looks fine in the sense that we should scale the characters to 9-A / 8-C?

 

[Qawsedf234]

Like, do you mean it looks fine in the sense that my arguments against scaling sound fine

Your proposals about the scaling chains and who goes where look fine with the caveat that I don't know the universe very well to argue if it's correct or not.

 

[ProfectusInfinity]

Unless there are any outstanding concerns, it looks like DontTalk’s interpretations have been accepted 3-0.

 

[EliminatorVenom]

... jesus, this is gigantic

I'll say this, from a first skim (a 25 minute skim and counting) through the thread, I get the distinct impression that Dragnoir's points about Touma scaling seem sound, as is the point about not much in ToAru being widespread, which seems to be in confirmation about protection not being widespread.

 

[Elizhaa]

I am largely fine with DontTalkDt's scaling, from what I read.

 

[ProfectusInfinity]

DontTalk's Suggestions​

• DontTalkDT​

• Deagonx​

• Qawsedf234​

• Elizhaa​

XDragnoir/FantaRin_The_First's Suggestions​

• EliminatorVenom​

 

[XDragnoir]

DontTalk's Suggestions​

• DontTalkDT​

• Deagonx​

• Qawsedf234​

• Elizhaa​

XDragnoir/FantaRin_The_First's Suggestions​

• EliminatorVenom​

Elizhaa and Qawsed only agreed with the scaling chains, quoting Qawsed "who goes where" to which I think everyone, me included does agree with.

The only thing important here is the values, to which absolutely nothing debunks Vento's 9A feat (supported by the other 9A dura feat from Tobio and downscaling from 8C to 9A+ from Arei/Junko and all the very casual 9B feats)

... jesus, this is gigantic

I'll say this, from a first skim (a 25 minute skim and counting) through the thread, I get the distinct impression that Dragnoir's points about Touma scaling seem sound, as is the point about not much in ToAru being widespread, which seems to be in confirmation about protection not being widespread.

To help even more with this point, as this is something even I had forgotten:

Vento can't even use normal magic, she is part of a group of 4 characters (Acqua, Vento, Terra and Fiamma) who removed their ability to use magic in exchange of a much stronger specific "angelic" spell, this is easy to forget as the other 3 got ways around this (Acqua's specific spell allows him to, Terra and Fiamma manipulated other people to use it for them) but outside of her wind control and passive knockout it's barely possible that she even has access to magic.

Fanta and my previous post already explained even more on this topic and as I said above, this feat doesn't exist in a vacuum, there's more supporting it and DT's entire rebuttal to this feat has been debunked well enough IMO.

 

[DontTalkDT]

The scaling would include whether or not Touma scales to Vento, XDragnoir. It's really not ambiguous.

Your "Vento can't use regular magic" argument doesn't work, since
a) we don't actually know that their special magic can't boost their stats
b) both Himegami and Index, neither of which can use any kind of magic at all, wear walking churchs and those still work. And in Index's case that's a magical item that gives her durability on par with a nuclear bomb shelter. Vento is one of the leaders of the giant magic organization that is the Christian church, so it is no stretch that she has stuff like that.
Magic is still the much more likely explanation than mechanism which the story never mentions at any point and that stands completely isolated.

Honestly, I had the impression we had a deal where we gathered all the arguments before I called staff members to then let them evaluate, instead of starting to argue with them once they're here. Which is why I also didn't argue further with your points. I really gave ample opportunity for you guys to write out your own text of arguments before the staff votes.
I would much rather continue on with where we go from here than to drag this out further now that votes were already cast.

Edit: Honestly, at this point it's better to take care of everything else in a new thread. I will give it a few more hours and if the majority of the votes (a 3 vote lead is not required for this anyway) is still in favor of what it currently is I will close this thread and apply the revision, as is in line with our rules.

 

[XDragnoir]

The scaling would include whether or not Touma scales to Vento, XDragnoir. It's really not ambiguous.

No, completely different things.

Touma scales to Vento. The deal is if Vento scales to the bazooka feat.

"Who goes where" =/= "who scales to what"

Your "Vento can't use regular magic" argument doesn't work, since
a) we don't actually know that their special magic can't boost their stats

If we don't know, we don't assume it does, how many times do I have to say this? Have the standards for arguments changed? Burden of proof isn't in the one making the claim to prove it right anymore? You make the claim and we have to go with it regardless of evidence? And this isn't even an isolated case as none of the 4 ever got any kind of note for such a thing, Fiamma for example was clearly compared to a normal human once or twice iirc, and he is the strongest of their group by far

b) both Himegami and Index, neither of which can use any kind of magic at all, wear walking churchs and those still work. And in Index's case that's a magical item that gives her durability on par with a nuclear bomb shelter. Vento is one of the leaders of the giant magic organization that is the Christian church, so it is no stretch that she has stuff like that.

1st, she isn't one of the leaders, Fiamma is the leader, we have no reason to assume she has such a position.

2nd, do we have any evidence she got a magical dura amping item? If there's no evidence it is a stretch because if she had such a item it would have been pointed out. Do you know who else is the leader of a giant organization? Aleister, who got his main body killed by a gun.

Magic is still the much more likely explanation than mechanism which the story never mentions at any point and that stands completely isolated.

Likely explanation? It's a headcanon explanation, she is not even the only character to survive an explosion in the verse, Touma and Yumiya did that too and they have no magic.

Honestly, I had the impression we had a deal where we gathered all the arguments before I called staff members to then let them evaluate, instead of starting to argue with them once they're here. Which is why I also didn't argue further with your points. I really gave ample opportunity for you guys to write out your own text of arguments before the staff votes.
I would much rather continue on with where we go from here than to drag this out further now that votes were already cast.

If you hadn't give them a "rundown" that clearly shows your own views on each topic as well as lots of incomplete explanations.

"Arei claimed Junko's holding back", yeah man, Arei is talking about her full release which is stronger than the normal release that she was using that didn't prove itself useful against Arei at all, not like even the Full Release is strong to the point of turning Arei to a bloody mess of any kind, when Junko used it she merely KOed Arei and sent her flying.

"We have several types of magical defenses in the verse" while not explaining how we have several magician that simply don't have such a method or how none of your examples are applicable to Vento.

If we have to explain things to people who never read Toaru at all, we have to explain everything that we and the characters are saying in a simple but still complete way.

Edit: Honestly, at this point it's better to take care of everything else in a new thread. I will give it a few more hours and if the majority of the votes (a 3 vote lead is not required for this anyway) is still in favor of what it currently is I will close this thread and apply the revision, as is in line with our rules.

... Got it.

 

[DontTalkDT]

No, completely different things.

Touma scales to Vento. The deal is if Vento scales to the bazooka feat.

"Who goes where" =/= "who scales to what"

Touma scales to Vento if and only if her durability is not supernatural. Otherwise, he effectively negates her durability and leaves what he overcomes a featless human.
So by agreeing with my scaling chain, which both explicitly do, they do agree that Touma does not scale to Vento (or scale over Vento to the rocket launcher, technically).

---

Anyway, with or without their votes, the majority is still for the 9-B solution. So I will close the thread now as votes were made, the thread is up for a month and 24+ hours passed since the majority was reached. I will apply the changes in question and then make a new thread to discuss everything else that was left to do.

Thanks to everyone who participated here and helped in bringing it to a conclusion.