[Toaru H1-B Hax] Curtana revision RETRY CRT

[LOTM_Historian]

Curtana Revision and H1-B Hax​

This thread is a retry of a previous discussion regarding Curtana’s classification, specifically whether it qualifies for H1-B hax. I aim to reevaluate the arguments in light of VS Battles Wiki’s revised tiering system philosophy.

---

New Tiering System Philosophy​

According to Ultima’s explanation of the revised tiering system, the distinction between being "beyond dimensions in a specific cosmology" and "beyond dimensions in general" has been removed. This implies that statements such as "above all dimensions" inherently signify transcendence over dimensional spaces as a whole, irrespective of their existence or theoretical nature. (previously being above dimensions was just +1 dimensional layer over the cosmology)

Ultima’s full comment can be seen here: https://imgur.com/a/xHw05KS

---

Revisiting Curtana’s Evidence from Toaru (OT18)​

Below are the relevant scans describing Curtana’s capabilities:

"This simultaneously severs every dimension at the coordinates whether they are higher dimensions or lower dimensions. It seems the only cross section objects created that we can perceive are the ones that can appear in a three-dimensional world." (What...?) Kamijou was completely dumbfounded. If what she was saying was true, that sword was a monstrous weapon that could cut right through dimensions which did exist but were more of a concept than anything. No matter how much steel someone used to protect his body, Curtana Original could cut right through the dimension to cleave him in two."

"A chill ran down his spine. After all, his opponent attacked with a strike that could slice through all dimensions that could be represented with whole numbers. If he misread the situation, he wouldn't just lose his right arm. His entire body would be sliced in two." "With a loud impact, Carissa landed near the third princess and dragged her sister off the ground with one hand. By the time Villian raised her head, the end of Curtana Original was already pressed against her throat. That sword had no tip or blade, but it held the ability to slice through all whole number dimensions."

These statements show that Curtana orginal's power applies to all dimensions represented by whole numbers, implying an infinite set.

---

Previous Refutation and Why I think it does not hold anymore​

Here is the old thread: https://vsbattles.com/threads/curtana-revision.131618/

The prior refutation centered around the phrase "dimensions that could be represented" as opposed to "those that exist." The argument was that Curtana’s slicing ability might not extend to dimensions beyond the specific cosmology of Toaru. However, under the new VSBW tiering philosophy, this interpretation no longer holds. The phrase “all dimensions that could be represented with whole numbers” doesn’t inherently limit itself to a finite subset, such as 11 dimensions. Instead, it refers to all possible whole-numbered dimensions, which constitutes an infinite set. Similar to how the revised system rejects the distinction between dimensions that exist within a cosmology and all theoretical dimensions, the statement in the text does not imply any finite limitation.

If statements of “above dimensions” now encompasses all possible dimensions, regardless of whether they exist, then Curtana’s ability to “slice through all dimensions that could be represented by whole numbers” qualifies as H1-B. Restricting this ability to a finite subset misunderstands the scope of the description, which points toward an infinite range of dimensions. To maintain consistency with this new philosophy, Curtana’s hax should be considered H1-B, even if the dimensions it affects do not actually exist.

This interpretation could also have implications for upscaling other characters in the Toaru verse. For example, since Magic Gods, Alice, CRC, etc’s hax are established as being superior to Curtana, their abilities should logically exceed this level of hax. That said, I'm making this thread just so we can acknowledge that Curtana’s hax at least should be H1-B even if those dimensions don't exist, not really to upscale anyone else.

What are your thoughts? Is this reasoning consistent with the new VSBW philosophy, or could it be dismissed as a no-limits fallacy? Tbh I'm fine if this gets rejected through other means just not the same reason we received. [I wrote this all on my phone during a 4 hour bus ride so tell me if anything doesnt make sense lol]

 

[PHANtomFELdway]

I agree like I said previously. And I think the thread is pretty well written. I don’t think anyone would misunderstand

 

[Aseka]

Following

 

[SweetDao]

I mentioned it before (to you I think?) but it should also be shown on his profile directly in the AP section ngl.

 

[Bomboopengin]

The prior refutation centered around the phrase "dimensions that could be represented" as opposed to "those that exist." The argument was that Curtana’s slicing ability might not extend to dimensions beyond the specific cosmology of Toaru. However, under the new VSBW tiering philosophy, this interpretation no longer holds. The phrase “all dimensions that could be represented with whole numbers” doesn’t inherently limit itself to a finite subset, such as 11 dimensions. Instead, it refers to all possible whole-numbered dimensions, which constitutes an infinite set. Similar to how the revised system rejects the distinction between dimensions that exist within a cosmology and all theoretical dimensions, the statement in the text does not imply any finite limitation.

Yeah I agree on that the quoted phrase "all dimensions that could be represented with whole numbers” should form an infinite set and therefore qualify for H1-B.

What are your thoughts? Is this reasoning consistent with the new VSBW philosophy, or could it be dismissed as a no-limits fallacy? Tbh I'm fine if this gets rejected through other means just not the same reason we received. [I wrote this all on my phone during a 4 hour bus ride so tell me if anything doesnt make sense lol]

I don't think there is a no-limits fallacy in this case, since the statement is not something like "It can cut everything, even dimensions" where the number of dimensions are not specified, but actually limits the power of it to an infinite number of dimensions through whole numbers.

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

Seems fine to me. Since the statement is literally Dimensions that could be represented and not Representable Dimensions that actually exist, keywords being could be, High 1-B seems perfectly fine, and limiting it to merely 11 Dimensions seems unnecessary given the statement itself never specifies any limitations.

 

[Digital_Franz]

Fine to me. I think it's pretty straightforward. There is no limitation on the number of dimensions and given the context, High 1-B is fine.

 

[Acertainbcplayer]

LOTM historian actually cooking right now, I agree 100% 2 hands 2 feets up on the sky.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

As long as it follows the new accepted guidelines; I think this is alright. But I think Ultima and/or DontTalkDT are better to ask.

 

[LOTM_Historian]

As long as it follows the new accepted guidelines; I think this is alright. But I think Ultima and/or DontTalkDT are better to ask.

Yeah, I left a message on their profiles. Would it be possible for you to @ them on this post as well? If not, no worries. Hopefully, they’ll see my message.

 

[ShadeyD]

I agree with the reasons above

Though, maybe we could make due with a "possibly" rating

 

[DontTalkDT]

@Ultima_Reality @Agnaa
I don't really want to get involved with ToAru threads at this point, but I feel like this is an interesting case-study for you guys given that "Context is always important"-thread. Good old "all x" statement, this time with the double specification on an ability working at that scale and whether that implies actual size of cosmology. You guys might also remember the magic god example I gave you in that thread, which would relate to this.

Here's my comment from the last thread that was debated in for further reference of the OP:

Yeah, all dimensions that can be represented by whole numbers. Which means, of all dimensions that exist, the subset that is represented by whole numbers can be cut. You have to prove that all whole numbered dimensions exist first.
It's like a character saying he will destroy all even-numbered universes. That doesn't mean there is a universe represented by each of the even numbers. There could be just 52 universes and from those he destroys just the even-numbered ones.

 

[Acertainbcplayer]

"This simultaneously severs every dimension at the coordinates whether they are higher dimensions or lower dimensions" is a stronger statement that could debunk the "only all dimension that exists" point. Instead of trying to say "ah actually it's just all dimensions that exists that could be represented by whole numbers" and ignoring this statement above by saying "it doesn't add anything", how about we ACTUALLY add them together?

"All dimensions that could be represented with whole numbers" + "every dimension at the coordinate whether higher or lower" = It will sever all (every) dimensions no matter higher or lower at that point, limited to those that can be represented by whole numbers. The point here is the word "every" implies that if those dimensions fits the condition "could be represented by whole numbers" and "no matter higher or lower" would fall into the effect of Curtana. Furthermore, the "whether they are higher or lower" implies that there are actually no limit, just that it must be dimensions that could be represented with whole numbers.

I don't think it's wise to just downplay it by saying "oh but there is this lower interpretation of this case that we could just use so we'll use that" and completely disregarding the scale that the author is talking about here. I'll give you one more example:

Curtana was stated that when in England, it "prioritize over all". This further implies the absoluteness of the Curtana while in England, combining it with the last 2 statements, I could safely say that a H1B rating is appropriate.

Edit: I want to add more, since I sensed that there will be people saying that if we don't use "every" and just use "all" it will falls onto that same thing again, but then I ask you, WHY WON'T WE USE THE WORD "EVERY"? Is there a reason why not? The word "every" added into the context more, it doesn't replace "all", but added into "all" so that the true scale could be fully delivered to the reader, so the existence of that word should be considered a game changing point, not "it doesn't matter". That's all I'm gonna say.

Edit 2: I forgot that you could just say "how about it's every dimensions that exists instead?" to further downplay it, I'll add even more into what you should focus on here. The point here is not about some nitpicking stuff, but more about the context which Curtana is currently in right now. There are no reason to say "no matter higher or lower" if the "every dimension at the coordinate" already exists, but the "no matter higher or lower" is still there, why? Because it needs to be strong enough to tell the reader that "it's not limited to existing dimensions!!!", the context is the point I'm trying to prove here, not technical nitpicking. BUT! I know, I know, you could also nitpick it and say "the higher or lower is added in to prove that the statement was talking about spatial dimension as in the TH dimension", but here's the thing, we need to consider that the "could be represented with whole number" statement is to be added in to again, TELL the reader that Curtana is actually THAT strong, the first statement alone would not be able to get a H1B scale by itself, some readers are gonna think "so it could cut through all dimensions that exists no matter lower or higher huh" to "So Curtana can cut through all dimensions that could be represented with whole numbers huh? Damn, that's crazy". Again, it's about the context, not technical nitpicking.

 

[LOTM_Historian]

Yeah, all dimensions that can be represented by whole numbers. Which means, of all dimensions that exist, the subset that is represented by whole numbers can be cut. You have to prove that all whole numbered dimensions exist first.
It's like a character saying he will destroy all even-numbered universes. That doesn't mean there is a universe represented by each of the even numbers. There could be just 52 universes and from those he destroys just the even-numbered ones.

In this thread, I am arguing that these dimensions do not actually need to exist within the verse for Curtana's hax to scale to them. Additionally, the example you provided, where a character saying "he will destroy all even-numbered universes," differs from this context specifically, in my opinion.

 

[PHANtomFELdway]

In this thread, I am arguing that these dimensions do not actually need to exist within the verse for Curtana's hax to scale to them. Additionally, the example you provided, where a character saying "he will destroy all even-numbered universes," differs from this context specifically, in my opinion.

I don’t think that is a good example ngl. The context is referring to dimensionality so all dimensions that COULD exist represented by whole numbers is pretty self explanatory.

Universes is just an entirely different analogy and is treated differently when applying it to a tier so they don’t really match up well in my opinion.

 

[LOTM_Historian]

I don’t think that is a good example ngl. The context is referring to dimensionality so all dimensions that COULD exist represented by whole numbers is pretty self explanatory.

Universes is just an entirely different analogy and is treated differently when applying it to a tier so they don’t really match up well in my opinion.

I agree, that analogy felt off the mark.

 

[Acertainbcplayer]

I agree, that analogy felt off the mark.

Tbh, the analogy you could use will literally be the same as the Curtana statement.

Imagine this: In a world where we have teleporters that could already ignore everything by moving on the 11th dimension, now imagine if the Curtana is so weak that it's just 1 level above that, the context in which the statement is in doesn't match what the downplayers are trying to say at all. It's a power from an Archangel, with various statements glazing it to hell, adding additional stuff in just for the reader to feel that Curtana is indeed something special and is not just another "hax" that we've seen before, like it would be funny as hell if Carissa swinging the Curtana around just for Kuroko to be like "all that just to mimic 1% of my power" and neg diff her with "STRONG GLASS PANE".

 

[XDragnoir]

According to Ultima’s explanation of the revised tiering system, the distinction between being "beyond dimensions in a specific cosmology" and "beyond dimensions in general" has been removed. This implies that statements such as "above all dimensions" inherently signify transcendence over dimensional spaces as a whole, irrespective of their existence or theoretical nature. (previously being above dimensions was just +1 dimensional layer over the cosmology)

Yeah no, the problem is that you're not understanding what this actually entails and how much evidence is required either way. The change in philosophy wasn't "we don't need proof" which is what you're leaning into, the change was "it's all or nothing", either a verse with the statement "beyond dimensionality" will be 1A through that statement or that statement will grant absolutely nothing to the scaling, rather than being used in a low-ball where it adds +1 dimension, such statements have not become a instantaneous upgrade to 1A and it does not affect the need for evidence that there are dimensions being affected when we're talking about lower tiers.

As an analogy, this is no different from how a statement about destroying all universes won't get you to 2A until you prove there are infinite ones, meanwhile a statement saying you transcend the multiverse will either be 5D or nothing, Toaru's statements fall in the first category rather than the 2nd which is where this new philosophy applies.

I don't care about debating the statements themselves because when it comes to them it's the same old arguments, the new stuff you've brought up gets debunked by it being a NLF as you noted in the OP and being a misunderstanding of how the Tier System treats such cases.

Also, c'mon guys, "every dimension higher or lower" being taken as literally "it can cut infinite dimensions" is the definition of a NLF.

 

[XDragnoir]

Also, side note, if Toaru didn't have the 11D statements these statements about Curtana would have upgraded the verse to 1B/H1B as soon as we found them LMAO.

Due to Occam's Razor, btw.

 

[PHANtomFELdway]

Yeah no, the problem is that you're not understanding what this actually entails and how much evidence is required either way. The change in philosophy wasn't "we don't need proof" which is what you're leaning into, the change was "it's all or nothing", either a verse with the statement "beyond dimensionality" will be 1A through that statement or that statement will grant absolutely nothing to the scaling, rather than being used in a low-ball where it adds +1 dimension, such statements have not become a instantaneous upgrade to 1A and it does not affect the need for evidence that there are dimensions being affected when we're talking about lower tiers.

As an analogy, this is no different from how a statement about destroying all universes won't get you to 2A until you prove there are infinite ones, meanwhile a statement saying you transcend the multiverse will either be 5D or nothing, Toaru's statements fall in the first category rather than the 2nd which is where this new philosophy applies.

I don't care about debating the statements themselves because when it comes to them it's the same old arguments, the new stuff you've brought up gets debunked by it being a NLF as you noted in the OP and being a misunderstanding of how the Tier System treats such cases.

Also, c'mon guys, "every dimension higher or lower" being taken as literally "it can cut infinite dimensions" is the definition of a NLF.

Yeah this comment just proves you don’t understand the argument. Infinite comes from all WHOLe numbers. And nothing here is about 1-A. You are entirely misunderstanding the purpose of this thread

 

[Acertainbcplayer]

Yeah no, the problem is that you're not understanding what this actually entails and how much evidence is required either way. The change in philosophy wasn't "we don't need proof" which is what you're leaning into, the change was "it's all or nothing", either a verse with the statement "beyond dimensionality" will be 1A through that statement or that statement will grant absolutely nothing to the scaling, rather than being used in a low-ball where it adds +1 dimension, such statements have not become a instantaneous upgrade to 1A and it does not affect the need for evidence that there are dimensions being affected when we're talking about lower tiers.

Does not relate to the post at all nor does your yapping do anything to what is being discussed

As an analogy, this is no different from how a statement about destroying all universes won't get you to 2A until you prove there are infinite ones, meanwhile a statement saying you transcend the multiverse will either be 5D or nothing, Toaru's statements fall in the first category rather than the 2nd which is where this new philosophy applies.

I don't care about debating the statements themselves because when it comes to them it's the same old arguments, the new stuff you've brought up gets debunked by it being a NLF as you noted in the OP and being a misunderstanding of how the Tier System treats such cases.

Also, c'mon guys, "every dimension higher or lower" being taken as literally "it can cut infinite dimensions" is the definition of a NLF.

The thing about the Universe is literally malding, so hard. Again, think again, your example of "this is the same as being able to destroy all universes doesn't mean you could destroy infinite of them" is so bad that I can only facepalm. Like such example holds no significance, 2 things are of 2 different nature, and the dimension one has actual context and significance in the story to hold it up while your example has none.

You also does not understand what this CRT is about at all. That's all I'm gonna say, come back when you have an actual points.

 

[Acertainbcplayer]

Let me just summarize the point here:

We're discussing about:
1: The current vsbattle rules and whether it will stop Toaru reaching H1B through that statement or not
2: Context > Technical nitpicking, this is just me btw, I'm saying that we SHOULD and MUST consider the context too, writing is an art and Kamachi isn't an amateur for all I know.
3: All statements about Curtana are everchanging that each describes the absolution Curtana has over dimensionality itself, limited to the conditions being those which could be represented with whole numbers. This thing isn't taken lightly in the slightest, despite we've seen things like Teleporters moving on the 11th dimension, ignoring every rules of lower dimension. If Curtana is just something that is a level above that then there would be no need to include such powerful statements like "Whether lower or higher" AND "That could be represented with whole numbers", AND "it prioritize above all", the main thing that helped it reach here is the whole number one, like there are literally no need to have that statement in if Curtana is just a something and not THE THING, because the original statement (higher or lower) is sufficient and doesn't need any more crazy context, it's as full as it is, the writer wouldn't complex it any more if it's just that, a sword that can cut through all dimensions, because the second context will actually make the reader overestimate it if Kamachi only intended it to be limited to what the universe has to offer, but have you ever wonder why the second statement exists? Why was it the one that's used the most from that point on? What's the point in using such powerful statement so many times for Curtana? Isn't it just a sword that's only 1 level above normal Teleporters? Why making such a fuss about it?

Next, if you say that the Physical Universe is somehow limited to only 11D, then that would contradict the fact that Magic Gods can even change 1+1 = 2. That type of Axiom manipulation on the same level as altering physical law itself, I hope I don't have to explain. I guess I'll need to be clear about this point, cause it is clearly a NLF, but it can be used to explain why thinking Curtana is only 11D despite all the statements are purely brainrot:

1: Magic Gods is on the level that they could alter physical law itself, since Phases are layers of existence itself
2: Curtana's power come from a being that is also above the Physical universe, an Angel, this is a clear point, I guess I don't have to explain why
3: And so, something like 11 dimension that is merely something like the string theory, something the Magic Gods are clearly capable of completely ignore than just change it to whatever they want, again this is clearly NLF, but story wise, this is what they are implied to be able to do (and Alice Anotherbible clearly holds suchs power story-wise too). So why must we be so fixed on the idea that "RAHH NO STATEMENT 11D CONFIRMED!!!!" when Curtana clearly has enough statement to be higher than that? And as I explained, supported story-wise by the Magic Gods and what they're capable of too.

I'll summarize my summarization again: The whole yap about Magic Gods are NLF, it holds no scaling significance, BUT it holds story significance to scale Curtana, because only Curtana would have enough statement to prove H1B, the Magic Gods will fall into NLF clearly. So don't go yap and say NLF! NLF! despite I already said that it is clearly NLF powerscaling wise.

Anyways, that's my point.

 

[XDragnoir]

Yeah this comment just proves you don’t understand the argument. Infinite comes from all WHOLe numbers. And nothing here is about 1-A. You are entirely misunderstanding the purpose of this thread

Does not relate to the post at all nor does your yapping do anything to what is being discussed

Are you guys for real? Just read the imgur link in the damn OP, shouldn't be that hard, it makes a direct reference to L1A, the "new philosophy" the OP is talking about and trying to apply to Toaru only applies to statements that will upgrade characters to L1A, it's not a valid reasoning for H1B tiers and lower.

Just read what I said until you can understand it.

The thing about the Universe is literally malding, so hard. Again, think again, your example of "this is the same as being able to destroy all universes doesn't mean you could destroy infinite of them" is so bad that I can only facepalm. Like such example holds no significance, 2 things are of 2 different nature, and the dimension one has actual context and significance in the story to hold it up while your example has none.

It's literally the same argument.

"Can destroy all dimensions"
How many dimensions are there? The statement doesn't specify

"Can destroy all universes"
How many universes are there? The statement doesn't specify

Both examples above run into the same problem of lack of info, as for Curtana specifically none of its statements say "there exists a dimension for each whole number" and nothing in the series supports this.

As you have not understood the point the OP is making I will try to summarize it to you, the OP is trying to remove the prerequisite for physical existence of the dimensions in the cosmology of the series, a prerequisite that was "recently" removed for tiers L1A and above but is still in place for H1B and below.

As I said in the first post, the OP based this CRT on a misunderstanding of the treatment different kinds of statements surrounding dimensions receive on the wiki, meanwhile you have no idea where the OP's view is coming from if you hadn't even noticed how this is tied to L1A/1A (I hope I don't need to explain that I am well aware he is arguing for H1B).

 

[PHANtomFELdway]

Are you guys for real? Just read the imgur link in the damn OP, shouldn't be that hard, it makes a direct reference to L1A, the "new philosophy" the OP is talking about and trying to apply to Toaru only applies to statements that will upgrade characters to L1A, it's not a valid reasoning for H1B tiers and lower.

You simply don’t understand the argument whatsoever. This was accepted as 11D. Cause it says all dimensions and we know of 11. The difference is that we no longer make statements that mean all dimensions (when in reference to dimensionality) to just talk about the dimensions that exist in verse.so the reasoning for 11D would be upgraded to high 1-B.and since you can’t understand the argument and are just yapping,I will try to explain it. I will not respond to you again since you aren’t bringing anything useful to the thread with your yap.

1.)This simultaneously severs every dimension at the coordinates whether they are higher dimensions or lower dimensions

From this scan you can clearly see that it is referring to dimensionality/higher dimensions.you should be able to understand this.


2.) Curtana Original could cut right through the dimension to cleave him in two."


"A chill ran down his spine. After all, his opponent attacked with a strike that could slice through all dimensions that could be represented with whole numbers.

So if you can connect these two scans together,it is referring to any dimensionality that can be represented with whole numbers.

Now it seems you don’t know what whole numbers are.basically any number from 1 to infinity (to simplify it. )

So to simplify the statement. Curtana Original could cut right through any dimension that is represented by any number until infinity. 1D,2D,3D,4D,5D etc. the statement is pretty self explanatory. “The debunk” is that whole numbers only talking about the dimensions inverse which is 11 (I guess no one can count past 11) which is yet again something the tiering system doesn’t do anymore.

Just read what I said until you can understand it.


It's literally the same argument.

"Can destroy all dimensions"
How many dimensions are there? The statement doesn't specify

Statement specifies that it is any number up until infinity.

"Can destroy all universes"
How many universes are there? The statement doesn't specify

Universes and dimensions aren’t the same. The context is clearly talking about dimensionality.even talks about 3D. It is talking about extra axis and not different universes.

Both examples above run into the same problem of lack of info, as for Curtana specifically none of its statements say "there exists a dimension for each whole number" and nothing in the series supports this.

If you would care to read. The dimensions wouldn’t even have to exist for the statement to be true. If we look at the statement.what does it say?

all dimensions that COULD be represented with whole numbers.

hope I don’t have to explain what could means. Any dimension that COULD exist represented by whole numbers is something that it can cut through . And no this is not a NLF.

As you have not understood the point the OP is making I will try to summarize it to you, the OP is trying to remove the prerequisite for physical existence of the dimensions in the cosmology of the series, a prerequisite that was "recently" removed for tiers L1A and above but is still in place for H1B and below.

I am the one who told him to make the thread. And this is just you misunderstanding the standards.

It is like if someone said that they could destroy infinite universes (with the statement being true obv). (They have enough power to accomplish this) just cause someone didn’t make infinite universes and that they don’t exist doesn’t mean that the statement is wrong.

As I said in the first post, the OP based this CRT on a misunderstanding of the treatment different kinds of statements surrounding dimensions receive on the wiki, meanwhile you have no idea where the OP's view is coming from if you hadn't even noticed how this is tied to L1A/1A (I hope I don't need to explain that I am well aware he is arguing for H1B).

And lastly. This isn’t tied to low 1-A and higher. It was just given as an example. Statements about dimensionality (as a whole ) aren’t assumed to only mean how many exist in verse anymore since it is literally talking about all of dimensionality) Regardless will just wait for ultima so the thread doesn’t get clogged.