Curtana revision.

[MrOMG]

I was doing Respect Treads for ToAru and for that I decided to completely re-read all the books, and so there you go. In 18 OT I found two rather interesting quotes about Curtana Original, perhaps proof that ToAru has many more dimensions than previously thought.

A chill ran down his spine. After all, his opponent attacked with a strike that could slice through all dimensions that could be represented with whole numbers. If he misread the situation, he wouldn't just lose his right arm. His entire body would be sliced in two.

With a loud impact, Carissa landed near the third princess and dragged her sister off the ground with one hand. By the time Villian raised her head, the end of Curtana Original was already pressed against her throat. That sword had no tip or blade, but it still held the ability to slice through all whole number dimensions.

 

[Darksmash]

This seems like an infinite number of higher dimensions

 

[MrOMG]

This seems like an infinite number of higher dimensions

Who knows, the only thing that applies to the higher dimensions is one quote. It is not clear whether it refers to a certain maximum existing dimension that Curtana can reach, or whether it is really higher dimensions. Seems to me the odds are 50/50.

"This is a ceremonial sword that was originally used to cut the United Kingdom apart from the planet Earth and control everything within the kingdom. If I apply that special quality, I can even do this."

She curtly swung down the sword.

In the next instant, Kamijou Touma saw a dimension being severed for the first time in his life.

Its range was a little less than 20 meters.

With a strange noise, something passed through along a line that Kamijou and Acqua had been on just a moment before. Something like a belt or a wall that was only about as wide as Curtana Original expanded. It was white and looked a little like a plastic model before it was colored. That object that looked not entirely complete appeared before Kamijou's eyes.

"I could feel it when I was practicing before. This spiritual item is quite old, but its disposition seems to change a bit when someone wields it based on modern military knowledge. …Well, I'm sure my mother would be able to do something similar because she has the same nature." A tone of enjoyment could be heard in Carissa's voice. "Did you know that the cross section you get by slicing a 3 dimensional object is 2 dimensional? And slicing a 2 dimensional object creates a 1 dimensional cross section."

With a clunk, the mysterious belt-shaped object that had been irrationally floating in the air fell to the ground right next to Kamijou.

It felt something like pottery, but it was actually extremely heavy despite how it looked. Even after it fell, it continued to sink into the black soil.

"Similarly, when a dimension higher than our 3 dimensions is sliced, the cross section appears in this world in a 3 dimensional form. As a result, the ruins of a cross section appears like this."

The second princess rested Curtana Original on her shoulder.

She was not attacking.

Even so, the dimension was sliced apart in the trajectory of her sword and a colorless belt-shaped object fell to her feet.

"This simultaneously severs every dimension at the coordinates whether they are higher dimensions or lower dimensions. It seems the only cross section objects created that we can perceive are the ones that can appear in a 3 dimensional world."

(What…?)

Kamijou was completely dumbfounded.

If what she was saying was true, that sword was a monstrous weapon that could cut right through dimensions which did exist but were more of a concept than anything. No matter how much steel someone used to protect his body, Curtana Original could cut right through the dimension to cleave him in two.

Even so, Kamijou did not feel any fear. The scale was simply too great. Apparently the universe was constantly expanding due to the big bang, but no one could concretely feel the universe expanding with their 5 senses. Second Princess Carissa was using a power on that level.

"All Dimensions Severing Spell."

 

[Hasty12345]

All “whole numbers” should be the set of naturals, so I don’t think an infinite amount of dimensions is far fetched

 

[Darksmash]

Who knows, the only thing that applies to the higher dimensions is one quote. It is not clear whether it refers to a certain maximum existing dimension that Curtana can reach, or whether it is really higher dimensions. Seems to me the odds are 50/50.

The set of whole numbers is infinite in size, so if each whole number corresponds to a dimension there would be infinite in total. Also from the quotes I have seen "dimensions" in context of Curtana appear to be higher dimensions.

 

[DontTalkDT]

The statement doesn't say there exists a dimension for every whole number. It says of all dimensions that exist, Curtana can cut all that are represented by whole numbers.
There are only 11 known to exist, so those 11 are, as far as we know, all whole numbered dimensions.

 

[MrOMG]

The statement doesn't say there exists a dimension for every whole number. It says of all dimensions that exist, Curtana can cut all that are represented by whole numbers.
There are only 11 known to exist, so those 11 are, as far as we know, all whole numbered dimensions.

The only way we know that ToAru has 11 dimensions is from teleporters, and as we know espers don't have full knowledge of the world, it's possible that 11 dimensions is the maximum a teleporter can reach. And the quote directly states that the Curtana original cuts through all the dimensions that can be represented by a whole number.

 

[XDragnoir]

Can't we go with a possibly 1B/H1B (i am not sure which tier "all whole numbers" is), we have verses like Destiny which have 2 or 3 ratings cause the number of dimensions they have isn't set in stone.

 

[Enter_Bluey]

From what I'm aware, we know of the 11th dimension from teleporters using it, but that would probably mean theres at least a dimension above that like what I seen earlier, represented as a temporal one. But looking at this, it would possible be 1-B/High1-B from the whole numbers part of the quote

 

[MrOMG]

From what I'm aware, we know of the 11th dimension from teleporters using it, but that would probably mean theres at least a dimension above that like what I seen earlier, represented as a temporal one. But looking at this, it would possible be 1-B/High1-B from the whole numbers part of the quote

Hmm, from what I understand DontTalkTD disagrees with this.

 

[Confluctor]

Honestly I think it's better to wait for the cosmology to develop - knowing Kamachi, it will take forever but still - cause this one could mean anything. And who knows, maybe they do have infinite dimensions, but they are not infinitely superior. Or maybe they are referring to alternate universes. Or pocket dimensions.

 

[Setsuna_tenma]

Q

Honestly I think it's better to wait for the cosmology to develop - knowing Kamachi, it will take forever but still - cause this one could mean anything. And who knows, maybe they do have infinite dimensions, but they are not infinitely superior. Or maybe they are referring to alternate universes. Or pocket dimensions.

Alternate universes don't exist on to aru

 

[Enter_Bluey]

Q

Alternate universes don't exist on to aru

This ^ its cosmology is a bit weird in that aspect, but I find it unique. It's a single world with phases as filters etc

 

[Confluctor]

We don't know that yet. Plus there were tons of hints to it in that weird harem boy arc (shitties arc ever)

 

[Enter_Bluey]

What hinted to alternate universes? Also why shouldn't magic gods have some form of NPI, they can destroy hidden world pretty sure

 

[Confluctor]

Idk, can't be asked to read all of that again.

But anyway, why would that be NPI?

 

[Enter_Bluey]

The hidden world is non existent, and they have a section in their p&a that says "'existing in nonexistent places". They can also destroy hidden world


As for alternate timelines, from what I remember they shouldnt exist in toaru. Everything would just be phases, or filters. If you mean like kamisato's ability if I remember correctly that's a world between phases

 

[Setsuna_tenma]

Idk, can't be asked to read all of that again.

But anyway, why would that be NPI?

It is a non physical world

 

[Confluctor]

I know it's a non existing world, but pretty sure that would qualify for void manip instead of NPI.

 

[Enter_Bluey]

Well void manip is more like it not NPI. But yeah they should probably get that on their profiles. Did the hidden world also lack concepts? I forgot

 

[Confluctor]

Pretty sure it does lack concepts

 

[Enter_Bluey]

Then I think it would be void manip and the ability to interact with conceptual nonexistence, I know NEP got a big revision so not sure about the nature

 

[MrOMG]

The WR world is an unused space. The world is something like a string that can be stretched and squeezed. If you stretch this string, you will notice subspace. And if you take into account the game on the PSP and Virtual-On, the cosmology is like this. The time line can be stretched in different directions arbitrarily, and parallel worlds are born of different changes when alternate stretched branches take a different outcome, or, in clearer terms, "What if" scenarios. As well as an infinite number of the same Strings. And Tangram exists in every world and dimension, and along with that exists beyond the multiverse and the like. Tangram space ceases to have meanings of direction and depth, whether forward, backward, left, right, up or down, such terms are meaningless in this infinitely expanding space.

The Plajiner bud is demonstrating behavior very different from that of the original girl loved by the Tangram, but this too must be one option among the infinitely-branching "paths".

One of the theories proposed by the Board of Directors is a parallel world, but this cannot be explained using our leading theory in which history acts like a rubber string.

The rubber string theory states that there is only one world and various parallel worlds are newly created when an alternate turn is taken at a branch. We picture it like placing pegs on a pinball or pachinko machine and passing the rubber string across the board so that it forms a single path even as the pegs bend it every which way, so it is much more like saying there is only one history and that it can be freely manipulated.

On the other hand, explaining the Blue Stalker requires a theory in which there are multiple worlds that exist literally parallel to each other.

The rubber string theory exists along a single line of history, but if we view that history as a flat rubber string, perhaps there is actually a bundle of countless strings. Or perhaps there is a reverse side to it like a storage tape.

Red Player x2: "To say that time is a rubber band, and there's a board with countless nails driven into it like a pachinko machine, the question is 'which nails' will we hook it onto, and that's all there is to it."

The distinction between front and back, left and right, and even up and down had little meaning in this infinitely expanding space. Points of light flashed here and there in the dark space. He could not tell if they were expressing a will like his own or if they indicated stars or worlds.

This being existed across every dimension and parallel world, reigned as the gatekeeper and ruler, and would eternally exile those it rejected to a random world. Who was the one and only person with the authorization to fully access the Tangram despite the risk?

 

[MrOMG]

Bump

 

[Accel0305]

The WR world is an unused space. The world is something like a string that can be stretched and squeezed. If you stretch this string, you will notice subspace. And if you take into account the game on the PSP and Virtual-On, the cosmology is like this. The time line can be stretched in different directions arbitrarily, and parallel worlds are born of different changes when alternate stretched branches take a different outcome, or, in clearer terms, "What if" scenarios. As well as an infinite number of the same Strings. And Tangram exists in every world and dimension, and along with that exists beyond the multiverse and the like. Tangram space ceases to have meanings of direction and depth, whether forward, backward, left, right, up or down, such terms are meaningless in this infinitely expanding space.

Isn't that considered to be non-canon to Toaru as it contradicts an already established fact about the cosmology of the verse, specifically this part:

and parallel worlds are born of different changes when alternate stretched branches take a different outcome, or, in clearer terms, "What if" scenarios. As well as an infinite number of the same Strings.

I imagine it has something to do with the mechanics of how esper powers work by adopting the Copenhagen Interpretation of quantum mechanics, as opposed to the Many Worlds Interpretation (which the quoted text above seems to adopt), which if adopted, would basically see esper powers fail to work, or basically spawn alternate realities at any attempt to use them, given the explanation we were given on how they operate, but I digress.

On another note, does it make sense to say that each Phase may have a differing number of dimensions, considering the fact that teleporters aren't really able to travel to other Phases if it were the case that the 11 dimensions which they travel through were all-encompassing over every single phase? If so, what sort of implications does this have on the larger world/cosmology that every single phase is situated in? I imagine that that could lead it to be treated as a higher-dimensional space, but I'm not sure.

 

[MrOMG]

On another note, does it make sense to say that each Phase may have a differing number of dimensions, considering the fact that teleporters aren't really able to travel to other Phases if it were the case that the 11 dimensions which they travel through were all-encompassing over every single phase? If so, what sort of implications does this have on the larger world/cosmology that every single phase is situated in? I imagine that that could lead it to be treated as a higher-dimensional space, but I'm not sure.

Most likely it has to do with the purity of the wave, Heaven has it higher and Hell has it lower, so even if there's an angel next to you, you wouldn't even notice it. But, we can also say that Phase>Universe for one simple reason, the Hierarchy of the Sephiroth Tree. As we know angels live in worlds higher than the Physical Universe, Archangel Gabriel was too strong, Tsuchimikado said that Archangel Gabriel is like a drop that fell on a bowl of water filled with water, and this was not a joke, the world became distorted indeed. And thus we come to the conclusion that the Archangel Gabriel is hierarchically superior to the universe, and the Archangels live in the Paradise Phase, that is, the Paradise Phase>the universe.

"The so-called Tree of Life is basically a hierarchy of identities, separating God, angels, humans and souls into ten levels on a pyramid; this is the basic concept."

"It's based on the picture drawn out to show that God reigns supreme over everything. Well, simply put, this picture shows that humans can only reach a certain level, and beyond is God's territory, so it can't be invaded."

"The number of humans and angels were already decided, thus in ordinary circumstances, humans are definitely unable to be promoted to become angels. In contrast, angels are never to be demoted to be humans."

"Because every single realm is already filled up."

Following off what Tsuchimikado said, Kanzaki continued, "But this spell called 'Angel Fall' is just as what the name implies, it can force an angel that's in the heavens to become a human. And the human realm is like a cup full of water, if a drop of angel is to fall in—what will happen to the cup of water?"

"Ah…eh…" Kamijou looked rather awkward as he said, "An…angel…?"

"Yes. Strictly speaking, it's not heaven's messenger, but God's messenger. Are there any questions?"

"Anyway, Angel Fall is a spell that forcefully pulls an angel down from above, and this will affect the four worlds—in other words, the original world, the world of creation, the formed world and the physical world."

"…Eh, Tsuchimikado-sensei, may I know what language this Missy is speaking?"

"I'll explain this. Like what you see, Kami-yan, everyone's inside and outside have switched. This is like a musical chairs game, once the game starts, the chairs and the people sitting on the chairs will change completely. But in this game, not everyone will get a chair eventually. The only one left without a seat will be squeezed into the sky—to sit on the chair that the angel originally vacated."

 

[MrOMG]

Bump

 

[MrOMG]

Bump

 

[Accel0305]

Most likely it has to do with the purity of the wave, Heaven has it higher and Hell has it lower, so even if there's an angel next to you, you wouldn't even notice it. But, we can also say that Phase>Universe for one simple reason, the Hierarchy of the Sephiroth Tree. As we know angels live in worlds higher than the Physical Universe, Archangel Gabriel was too strong, Tsuchimikado said that Archangel Gabriel is like a drop that fell on a bowl of water filled with water, and this was not a joke, the world became distorted indeed. And thus we come to the conclusion that the Archangel Gabriel is hierarchically superior to the universe, and the Archangels live in the Paradise Phase, that is, the Paradise Phase>the universe.

I'm pretty sure that Phases don't really have any hierarchical superiority over each other. The beings (like angels and humans) maybe, but not the very realms themselves, and even in that case, it's not really a hierarchical superiority in a dimensional or tiering sense, seeing as humans like Accelerator and Kazakiri are able to duke it out just fine with angels. The way Tsuchimikado described the Phases, they just seem to have a difference of wavelength in the way they exist thereby making them undetectable to their respective inhabitants, but nothing regarding hierarchical superiority over one another.

Now in terms of size, just saying that Phases>the universe may be a bit too much of a blanket statement, especially when we have Phases like the Imaginary Number District, which are only city-size at most. From what has been demonstrated so far, Phases can be either vastly superior to an average Low 2-C (or maybe even 2-C, 2-B, or 2-A) realm, as evidenced by the Hidden World, or as small as a city, as evidenced by the Imaginary Number District. So I don't think it's quite true to just generalize them as being superior to a universe. I personally prefer to take them as universe size (3-A or Low 2-C) by default, unless stated otherwise.

 

[MrOMG]

I'm pretty sure that Phases don't really have any hierarchical superiority over each other. The beings (like angels and humans) maybe, but not the very realms themselves, and even in that case, it's not really a hierarchical superiority in a dimensional or tiering sense, seeing as humans like Accelerator and Kazakiri are able to duke it out just fine with angels. The way Tsuchimikado described the Phases, they just seem to have a difference of wavelength in the way they exist thereby making them undetectable to their respective inhabitants, but nothing regarding hierarchical superiority over one another.

Now in terms of size, just saying that Phases>the universe may be a bit too much of a blanket statement, especially when we have Phases like the Imaginary Number District, which are only city-size at most. From what has been demonstrated so far, Phases can be either vastly superior to an average Low 2-C (or maybe even 2-C, 2-B, or 2-A) realm, as evidenced by the Hidden World, or as small as a city, as evidenced by the Imaginary Number District. So I don't think it's quite true to just generalize them as being superior to a universe. I personally prefer to take them as universe size (3-A or Low 2-C) by default, unless stated otherwise.

Well as if to say the theory that the Phase>Universe is connected exactly with the hierarchy of the Sephiroth Tree, because the Archangels and similar beings cannot exist in the Surface World, (the Physical Universe which is at the very bottom of the hierarchy of worlds) and so they can exist in a space which can withstand their power, and this is the Paradise Phase, if the Phases were not "bigger" or "stronger" than the Physical Universe, then the Archangel could not exist in the Paradise Phase either.

 

[DontTalkDT]

The only way we know that ToAru has 11 dimensions is from teleporters, and as we know espers don't have full knowledge of the world, it's possible that 11 dimensions is the maximum a teleporter can reach. And the quote directly states that the Curtana original cuts through all the dimensions that can be represented by a whole number.

Yeah, all dimensions that can be represented by whole numbers. Which means, of all dimensions that exist, the subset that is represented by whole numbers can be cut. You have to prove that all whole numbered dimensions exist first.
It's like a character saying he will destroy all even-numbered universes. That doesn't mean there is a universe represented by each of the even numbers. There could be just 52 universes and from those he destroys just the even-numbered ones.

Can't we go with a possibly 1B/H1B (i am not sure which tier "all whole numbers" is), we have verses like Destiny which have 2 or 3 ratings cause the number of dimensions they have isn't set in stone.

That would require anything close to solid evidence for that to exist. Which it doesn't. We don't give out Tier 1 ratings of any kind for vague allusions.

What hinted to alternate universes? Also why shouldn't magic gods have some form of NPI, they can destroy hidden world pretty sure

Not sure about that.

But in truth, there had been one more layer. It was as uniform as a thin membrane, it had not even the slightest seam, and it could not be detected or destroyed by anyone, but one last phase had existed.

Technically it is said nobody can destroy it... which Crowley kinda proved false later on, but still.

 

[Iiliminal]

bump

 

[Enter_Bluey]

it mentions the second and first dimension as an example from what I rmbr, but something like that whole number dimension statement wouldn't be accepted here