Toaru Discussion thread New Fourms #1

[MrOMG]

I can solo carry 1-A ToAru guys. Trust me

The plan is to prove that the Phases are higher worlds, etc. Maybe Ain Sof Aur rambling

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

The plan is to prove that the Phases are higher worlds, etc. Maybe Ain Sof Aur rambling

Based

---

And now the ability scan gathering phase for Misaka is done! With that out of the way, and with me having decided to go with stats, Misaka's profile revamp is done! (Ignoring the **** ton of references I need to add)

And I can go work on Gunha... who's profile is fine, I just have decided to split his profiles into two keys. One for Fanfare and one for... well, every other appearance of his (Railgun, Astral Buddy and SS2). Fanfare ended with Gunha saying he needed to train and he went from matching Misaka and then thinking that he could lose to Misaka if they continued fighting without interruptions to him matching L6S!Misaka in the Railgun Manga. So it is just a stat and scaling thing.

 

[Axscell]

Long story short, we are ******:




It should be a downgrade.

The dimensions for Curtana are still valid, but the specific number we've been using is 11 BECAUSE of the teleporters.

Superstring dimensions aren't valid for the Tiering System because of their minimal size, before this chapter we had a lack of information on the topic so the idea that the 11 dimensions of teleporters applied Curtana's cross-section logic was still valid, but now we know Kamachi has included both smaller dimensions from superstring theory and higher ones which Curtana cuts to create the debris.

We're going down to 5D, at best 6D, unless we get a way to go all the way up to 1A, like I suggested before, it's up to you guys.

You're suggesting that we treat the dimensions described by Curtana as separate from those used by teleporters, right? It is a valid way of reconciling the contradiction that I've considered tbh.

Also, wouldn't it just be an upgrade for Curtana and things that scale to it, because of this

"This simultaneously severs every dimension at the coordinates whether they are higher dimensions or lower dimensions. It seems the only cross section objects created that we can perceive are the ones that can appear in a three-dimensional world." (What...?) Kamijou was completely dumbfounded. If what she was saying was true, that sword was a monstrous weapon that could cut right through dimensions which did exist but were more of a concept than anything. No matter how much steel someone used to protect his body, Curtana Original could cut right through the dimension to cleave him in two."

"A chill ran down his spine. After all, his opponent attacked with a strike that could slice through all dimensions that could be represented with whole numbers. If he misread the situation, he wouldn't just lose his right arm. His entire body would be sliced in two." "With a loud impact, Carissa landed near the third princess and dragged her sister off the ground with one hand. By the time Villian raised her head, the end of Curtana Original was already pressed against her throat. That sword had no tip or blade, but it held the ability to slice through all whole number dimensions."

The only reason why is wasn't accepted is because of the whole 11-D stuff in the first place.

 

[XDragnoir]

You're suggesting that we treat the dimensions described by Curtana as separate from those used by teleporters, right? It is a valid way of reconciling the contradiction that I've considered tbh.

More or less that, yes.

Also, wouldn't it just be an upgrade for Curtana and things that scale to it, because of this

The only reason why is wasn't accepted is because of the whole 11-D stuff in the first place.

Let me be straightforward for a moment, are you for real? Do you legitimately think the problem with that statement was the 11D stuff?

Let me use an analogy, so that you can hopefully understand it.

There is a box with oranges inside it, two people are trying to find out how many there are exactly but their only info is "there are 11 fruits".

One side is being cautious, saying there are, as far as evidence can prove, 11 oranges and anything higher than that is pure speculation, the other side is saying there as many as a box can fit.

Now the owner of the box came and said there aren't "11 fruits", but actually 11 apples and didn't elaborate on how many oranges there are.

If you think taking away evidence from the already unsubstantiated claim that there are as many dimensions as whole numbers in the series will somehow make the claim more valid, I honestly think you have no idea how an argument works, specially inside the wiki.

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

snip

Huh, took me a bit to get this, but ye... Toaru's High 1-C scaling is just ******, isn't it? And Toaru going down to 4D-5D. Man, if only Kamachi stated this much earlier in the novels years ago rather than just a random spinoff manga.

 

[XDragnoir]

The plan is to prove that the Phases are higher worlds, etc. Maybe Ain Sof Aur rambling

With the info we have so far, I think it's pretty much impossible to prove that for the Phases.

There are like, 2 quotes that imply that but then there's a lot of context and anti-feats towards that conclusion.

I think the Four Worlds can get something like that, but we barely have anything actually scaling to it.

 

[MrOMG]

With the info we have so far, I think it's pretty much impossible to prove that for the Phases.

There are like, 2 quotes that imply that but then there's a lot of context and anti-feats towards that conclusion.

I think the Four Worlds can get something like that, but we barely have anything actually scaling to it.

To be honest, I don't remember any directly conflicting information about the Phases and their superiority over the human world.

 

[XDragnoir]

To be honest, I don't remember any directly conflicting information about the Phases and their superiority over the human world.

Well, I guess it depends what exactly you mean by "superiority over the human world", that can lead to multiple tiers.

 

[MrOMG]

Well, I guess it depends what exactly you mean by "superiority over the human world", that can lead to multiple tiers.

At the very least the Phases are larger than the universe, given that Phase beings can destroy the universe by their mere presence. And one can go further, given what vague quotes about higher organizations being impossible to explain with letters and numbers. Index's words about Coronzon seeing the human world as a box toy, etc.

 

[XDragnoir]

At the very least the Phases are larger than the universe, given that Phase beings can destroy the universe by their mere presence.

This doesn't have anything to do with size, and being larger than a universe is just... being a larger universe, that's just Tier 2.

And one can go further, given what vague quotes about higher organizations being impossible to explain with letters and numbers.

They don't help that much as they are extremely vague and aren't consistently brought up on the topic.

Index's words about Coronzon seeing the human world as a box toy, etc.

This one is kinda good, I was definitely thinking about using that quote for something but it doesn't support the Phases superiority stuff, so I don't get why you're bringing this one up.

 

[MrOMG]

Snip

It has more to do with the hierarchy of souls by the Tree of Sephiroth. Phases are higher up in the hierarchy of the worlds of the Tree of Sephiroth. And even if the soul rank of a Phase Being was lowered to the level of a human being, the Phase Being still has enough power to destroy the world, etc.

And also let's not forget that the Tree of Sephiroth only describes the spiritual world of humans. You can make something up there. Like, a higher level of purity also implies indescribability from the perspective of less evolved beings. You can even remember the first appearance of Aiwass who couldn't speak the words of his world. And Archangel Gabriel who couldn't speak words either.

And that Coronzon is a being whose soul rank is clearly higher than humans. Maybe this must mean that every being whose soul rank is higher than that of a lower ranked being in the hierarchy, sees all lower ranked beings as toys that are inside a box. It also said that Archangel Michael could fight Coronzon, meaning Archangels must also perceive the human world as a toy box, etc.

It's all pretty schizophrenic and I'm starting to get confused myself(well, or it's because my English is not good enough for me to express my thoughts correctly)

 

[Churronzon]

It also said that Archangel Michael could fight Coronzon,

This isn't stated anywhere. Israel Regardie places archangels in Beriah which is the same laws that Coronzon uses but we don't have the first part in Toaru. We do have a comparison of Coronzon's magic to Gabriel's purity tho.

 

[Churronzon]

but it doesn't support the Phases superiority stuff, so I don't get why you're bringing this one up.

The Aethyrs that Coronzon is from is treated as a phase aren't they?

“The Secret and Unrecorded Call: Thy name is *********. ******************************
******************************.”
The voice from the hair spoke words no human could pronounce.
Researchers could not agree on whether only angels could see that text, if it pointed to all
thirty Aethyrs, and what effect it had.

If you thought of a summoning circle like a warp gate from cheap science fiction, then
what would happen if you threw someone into a malfunctioning gate and entered the
coordinates using a staticky signal? The power to forcibly send her back between phases
would slice Coronzon apart like a wire through a hardboiled egg.

Shouldn't the divine realms she's from share the superiority of Coronzon's existence?
But someone would need to reconcile Magic Gods creating concepts identical to heaven but being unable to destroy or enter them since:

Othinus was stated as not being able to destroy phases and a crazier cosmological reveal than the Mental Out one is that the afterlife itself is a phase lol (which Magic Gods can't revive from).

“I am saying she has a chance if we get her in an ambulance where she can receive a
transfusion and stitches. There is no such thing as complete resurrection in this world, so
even Christian Rosenkreuz’s corpse simply does not decompose. Even the Chinese Shijie-
Xian only has a false funeral to cut their ties to this world, so they do not actually die and
come back to life. Death is a holy ground. Once people die, that is the end.”

That god had once destroyed the entire world, remade it as she saw fit, and created a world
where all the dead in the world had been saved in order to drive Kamijou to the edge, so
now she had to describe the inconvenience she herself had brought about.

“You don’t know? The world is divided into different categories: human, animal, deva,
preta. But there is no path allowed for those like us who are known as Magic Gods. Yet we
did not rise to this position through the normal means, so the gates of the Pure Land or
of heaven will not open for us.”

 

[MrOMG]

This isn't stated anywhere. Israel Regardie places archangels in Beriah which is the same laws that Coronzon uses but we don't have the first part in Toaru. We do have a comparison of Coronzon's magic to Gabriel's purity tho.

One of the princesses suggested summoning Archangel Michael to fight Coronzon, but then immediately admitted that Curtana wasn't enough to summon Archangel Michael. The only quote that suggests Coronzon's superiority is when they said something like, "Coronzon belongs to a completely different pyramid than Archangel Michael and Gabriel."

 

[Axscell]

Let me be straightforward for a moment, are you for real? Do you legitimately think the problem with that statement was the 11D stuff?

Surely you can respond without being so damn condescending?

Now, to address your response, it seems you’re not quite grasping the implication of treating the two concepts of dimensions as separate. The whole 11-D argument is quite literally not a factor for Curtana. I don’t know why you’re trying to factor it in as a consideration, when my argument is that Curtana’s concept of dimensions should be evaluated on their own, separately. The quotes are pretty explicit:

"his opponent attacked with a strike that could slice through all dimensions that could be represented with whole numbers."

“but it held the ability to slice through all whole number dimensions.”

Whole numbers go 0, 1, 2, 3, and so on, infinitely. That’s a direct statement pointing to infinite dimensions, no speculation needed. Before, we were stuck tying this to the teleporters’ 11D framework, which capped our interpretation. But the manga’s clarification that the teleporters’ 11 dimensions are compactified (and irrelevant to Tier 1) makes them a non factor to Curtana. If we’re separating the dimensions, as you’ve agreed, Curtana’s feat doesn’t need to lean on the teleporters.

Let me use an analogy, so that you can hopefully understand it.

There is a box with oranges inside it, two people are trying to find out how many there are exactly but their only info is "there are 11 fruits".

One side is being cautious, saying there are, as far as evidence can prove, 11 oranges and anything higher than that is pure speculation, the other side is saying there as many as a box can fit.

Now the owner of the box came and said there aren't "11 fruits", but actually 11 apples and didn't elaborate on how many oranges there are.

If you think taking away evidence from the already unsubstantiated claim that there are as many dimensions as whole numbers in the series will somehow make the claim more valid, I honestly think you have no idea how an argument works, specially inside the wiki.

Your fruit box analogy, where the owner clarifies "11 apples" and leaves the oranges vague, doesn’t quite hold here. Curtana’s quote isn’t vague; it’s like a label saying "all the oranges countable by whole numbers." That’s not a side note or an implication. It’s a clear claim of infinity. The teleporters’ "11 apples" being specified as compactified doesn’t erase the "oranges" (Curtana’s dimensions); it just proves they’re distinct. So, the 11D cap you’re referencing doesn’t limit Curtana anymore. It’s free to stand as its own infinite-dimensional feat. Here’s a better analogy for you:

A box is said to contain "11 fruits," assumed to be oranges (11 dimensions for both teleporters and Curtana).
Someone else claims the box also has oranges, with a note saying "all the oranges you can count with whole numbers" (Curtana’s quote). The owner clarifies, "The 11 fruits are 11 apples (compactified teleporter dimensions), and there are oranges too, but I haven’t counted them."
Conclusion: The apples are separate (teleporters’ 11D). The oranges (Curtana’s dimensions) are still in the box, and the note suggests they’re infinite ("all whole number dimensions").

Now whether this would be enough to pass on this site, I don’t know, but the evidence is literally right there.

 

[XDragnoir]

It has more to do with the hierarchy of souls by the Tree of Sephiroth. Phases are higher up in the hierarchy of the worlds of the Tree of Sephiroth. And even if the soul rank of a Phase Being was lowered to the level of a human being, the Phase Being still has enough power to destroy the world, etc.

And also let's not forget that the Tree of Sephiroth only describes the spiritual world of humans. You can make something up there. Like, a higher level of purity also implies indescribability from the perspective of less evolved beings. You can even remember the first appearance of Aiwass who couldn't speak the words of his world. And Archangel Gabriel who couldn't speak words either.

And that Coronzon is a being whose soul rank is clearly higher than humans. Maybe this must mean that every being whose soul rank is higher than that of a lower ranked being in the hierarchy, sees all lower ranked beings as toys that are inside a box. It also said that Archangel Michael could fight Coronzon, meaning Archangels must also perceive the human world as a toy box, etc.

It's all pretty schizophrenic and I'm starting to get confused myself(well, or it's because my English is not good enough for me to express my thoughts correctly)

The Tree of Sephiroth point you brought up at the beginning is the only meaningful one for this conversation and I don't think it has been elaborated enough as of currently, everything else is unrelated to tiers (soul rank, language, etc), some of these aren't even worth as support evidence.

The Aethyrs that Coronzon is from is treated as a phase aren't they?

Aethyrs? Isn't Coronzon from Da'at? I don't think Da'at is really a phase, not sure about the Aethyrs but I didn't think the Aethyrs were places up until now.

Shouldn't the divine realms she's from share the superiority of Coronzon's existence?

Sure, but said "superiority" is pretty useless if the only quote supporting it is the toy box one, when it comes to tiering.

But someone would need to reconcile Magic Gods creating concepts identical to heaven but being unable to destroy or enter them since:

Othinus was stated as not being able to destroy phases

I am pretty sure it was stated that MGs can destroy phases quite a few times but don't do it out of convenience (as they'd have to remake it on their own). Not only that, but that's just verse mechanics at the end of the day, cause they can rewrite and create phases, there's nothing to reconcile really.

crazier cosmological reveal than the Mental Out one is that the afterlife itself is a phase lol (which Magic Gods can't revive from)

Why is it crazier? What exactly do we get from that reveal?

Magic Gods also can't enter heaven or the Buddhistic Pure Land.

Or this? What does this change in practice?

Surely you can respond without being so damn condescending?

There have been 3 to 5 threads on the same topic, the same arguments has been repeated ad infinitum by now, I really don't want a 6th one because people can't understand how "11D" was never a barrier on the usage of these quotes.

But oh well, here we go again:

Now, to address your response, it seems you’re not quite grasping the implication of treating the two concepts of dimensions as separate. The whole 11-D argument is quite literally not a factor for Curtana. I don’t know why you’re trying to factor it in as a consideration, when my argument is that Curtana’s concept of dimensions should be evaluated on their own, separately. The quotes are pretty explicit:

Did you read what I wrote? That's literally what I was explaining there, but in case the analogy was too abstract:

We had the 11D from teleporters and the dimensions from Curtana treated as the same, that's the whole reason behind the High 1C tier in the wiki for years at this point.

The new Mental Out chapter made it so that we will now have to split the two types of dimensions, as I did in my analogy, they're now oranges and apples.

Whole numbers go 0, 1, 2, 3, and so on, infinitely. That’s a direct statement pointing to infinite dimensions, no speculation needed. Before, we were stuck tying this to the teleporters’ 11D framework, which capped our interpretation. But the manga’s clarification that the teleporters’ 11 dimensions are compactified (and irrelevant to Tier 1) makes them a non factor to Curtana. If we’re separating the dimensions, as you’ve agreed, Curtana’s feat doesn’t need to lean on the teleporters.

Read the first quote again:

"his opponent attacked with a strike that could slice through all dimensions that could be represented with whole numbers."

It doesn't say "infinite dimensions", it says "all dimensions", that means that no matter how many dimensions there are in Toaru Curtana will be able to cut them, but this doesn't provide the exact number of dimensions that do in fact exist.

It's a completely unsubstantiated claim to equate "all that could be represented by whole numbers" with "there are as many as there are whole numbers", there needs to be another quote to properly establish how many there are, so far we only know that Curtana can cut all of them.

Also, "infinite dimensions" would be wrong going by our tiering system, the "all whole numbers" stuff is just endless in 1B, it won't hit High 1B.

Your fruit box analogy, where the owner clarifies "11 apples" and leaves the oranges vague, doesn’t quite hold here. Curtana’s quote isn’t vague; it’s like a label saying "all the oranges countable by whole numbers." That’s not a side note or an implication. It’s a clear claim of infinity. The teleporters’ "11 apples" being specified as compactified doesn’t erase the "oranges" (Curtana’s dimensions); it just proves they’re distinct. So, the 11D cap you’re referencing doesn’t limit Curtana anymore. It’s free to stand as its own infinite-dimensional feat. Here’s a better analogy for you:

It's not a clear claim of infinity, if it was clear we wouldn't ever have had this debate, it is everything minus clear. I also never said anything about "erasing the oranges", that's a strawman, the whole analogy was aimed at explaining how the number we used didn't apply anymore because we now have confirmation they're oranges and apples. Mind you, the 11D was never a limit and you don't seem to grasp it, it was a solid ground of something we could claim without delving into the NLF that are these Curtana quotes.

A box is said to contain "11 fruits," assumed to be oranges (11 dimensions for both teleporters and Curtana).
Someone else claims the box also has oranges, with a note saying "all the oranges you can count with whole numbers" (Curtana’s quote). The owner clarifies, "The 11 fruits are 11 apples (compactified teleporter dimensions), and there are oranges too, but I haven’t counted them."
Conclusion: The apples are separate (teleporters’ 11D). The oranges (Curtana’s dimensions) are still in the box, and the note suggests they’re infinite ("all whole number dimensions").

??????????

What did you change from my analogy? Yes, it's a single box that contains both Apples and Oranges, yes, there are exactly 11 Apples and an unspecified number of oranges, all of that I had literally said, what are you adding exactly? The only difference is you concluding that there are "infinite oranges" which is wrong as I explained above, but let me ask you two things regarding Curtana’s statement:

Does it say "Curtana can cut all whole number dimensions" or "there exists one dimension for each and all whole numbers"?

If I say a character can kill all humans that can be assigned a whole number, are they killing infinite humans?

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

Dumb question. Would it be best to seperate all of Accelerator's abilities on P&A by order of his keys? For example: Pre-HS Accel won't get flight mentioned in his Pre-HS P&A section since he first showed the fact he could make tornado wings to fly, and his flight will just be tackled on his Post-HS key since he only showed that ability after he got shot in the head.

Just trying to get a feel for Accel's profile revamp. Also, I am trying to distract from the repetitive Curtana and 11D talk.

 

[Churronzon]

Would it be best to seperate all of Accelerator's abilities on P&A by order of his keys? For example: Pre-HS Accel won't get flight mentioned in his Pre-HS P&A section since he first showed the fact he could make tornado wings to fly, and his flight will just be tackled on his Post-HS key since he only showed that ability after he got shot in the head.

I can agree with that, but I don't know how many abilities that even affects.

 

[Axscell]

Snip

I mean, the quote does flat-out state that those specific dimensions do actually exist:

"This simultaneously severs every dimension at the coordinates whether they are higher dimensions or lower dimensions. It seems the only cross section objects created that we can perceive are the ones that can appear in a 3 dimensional world." (What…?) Kamijou was completely dumbfounded. If what she was saying was true, that sword was a monstrous weapon that could cut right through dimensions which did exist but were more of a concept than anything. No matter how much steel someone used to protect his body, Curtana Original could cut right through the dimension to cleave him in two. Even so, Kamijou did not feel any fear. The scale was simply too great. Apparently the universe was constantly expanding due to the big bang, but no one could concretely feel the universe expanding with their 5 senses. Second Princess Carissa was using a power on that level.

But yeah, in case this still isn’t enough evidence for you, and this is just going to end up going in circles, we’re just gonna have to agree to disagree. I guess if it ever does end up going to a CRT, we can continue the debate there.

To backtrack a bit, I actually don’t think separating the concept of dimensions is the best way to go, for now at least. It’s certainly an option, but I don’t think it’s the best.

I’m saying this mainly because of the evidence we have for the 11 dimensions being non-compactified vs the one character statement (from the manga) claiming that they’re compactified.

For one, past explanations (and even recent showings from the very same manga) of how teleportation and the higher dimensions work, in general, points to them being anything but compactified.

Her ankle seems to be bitten by the ‘teeth’ of the asphalt road.(Damn…it…)Shirai’s ability is called instant teleport. It’s not limited to 3 dimension rules, so she can move about freely within space.However, there’s a weakness to this ability. Though the phrase ‘to teleport within space’ sounds simple, the theory behind this is to get away from the 3 dimensions, find her position in the 11th dimension, and then calculate the vectors to teleport. Such calculations complexity can’t be compared to the simple commands that ordinary espers will have, like ‘fire a fireball’, ‘fire electric strikes’.

This initial explanation, along with several subsequent ones, state that teleporters operate by calculating their position in and literally transporting themselves to the 11th dimension, which wouldn’t be possible if the dimensions were truly compactified. This is mainly because if they were, they’d be curled up to a subatomic scale and wouldn’t serve as navigable spaces for macroscopic objects, which wouldn’t make much sense for teleporters since there is explicit mention of them transporting themselves to the 11-D space.

These panels from the manga too, clearly shows the 11th dimension being an extended navigable space, which again doesn’t make sense for compactified dimensions.

For all we know, this (recent explanation from the manga) could be a case of a character just being wrong or her explanation being very specific to her own ability.

 

[Churronzon]

Why is it crazier? What exactly do we get from that reveal?

The afterlife is reliant on the pure world and Coronzon would nuke every soul that existed. It's crazier from a story perspective, not a powerscaling one, but I guess I shoulda surmised that much already since the afterlife is still a part of creation. In Aleister's ceremony with Aiwass would all the souls that would be in heaven/hell be sent to his scientific heaven at least?

Or this? What does this change in practice?

It would mean Magic Gods could vamoose the phase(s) and revive themselves which contradicts Othinus' statements about there being no such thing as true resurrection.

Similarly, Magic Gods having the power to freely manipulate phases would mean they could enter heaven if they’d like regardless of verse mechanics. What makes it so different from traversing to say Aleisters shifted phase or the Black World if all phases are identical?

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

I can agree with that, but I don't know how many abilities that even affects.

How's this? This is the revamp P&A for Pre-Headshot!Accel

• Superhuman Physical Characteristics
• Esper Power
  • Vector Manipulation (11-D; Has the ability to manipulate and control any vector he comes in contact with. Reflected Coronzon's Magick: Flaming_Sword)
    • Attack Reflection (Can passively redirect virtually any vector-based attack back at his opponent)
      • Limited Sound Manipulation (Can reflect sound)
      • Limited Light Manipulation (Reflects the sun's ultraviolet rays)
      • Limited Gravity Manipulation (Can reflect gravity)
      • Limited Temperature Manipulation (Can reflect heat)
    • Blood Manipulation & Durability Negation (Can make people explode from the inside-out by reversing their blood flow through direct contact)
    • Danmaku (Omnidirectional: Capable of scattering a dozen small stones of various sizes in every direction in a manner that's reminiscent of a shotgun blast)
    • Air Manipulation (Learnt that he could manipulate the vectors of the air surrounding him to affect the air in a large area, being able to create a spear of wind to attack people with from a distance as a result)
      • Plasma Manipulation (Can compress the air, allowing him to increase the heat and create a destructive sphere of plasma)
    • Matter Manipulation, Biological Manipulation and Limited Mind Manipulation (Macro-Quantum: Rearranged Last Order's electrons in her brain to perform brain surgery by manipulating her brain signals, cross referencing Last Order's old brain data with their current data to save her from a virus)

Am pretty sure I caputured all of the abilities that Pre-HS!Accel showed.

 

[Malachi_Daley]

Hello, I'm new to this forum. I was thinking about making a page on the Vs wiki concerning Kokuchou Mayui and "Senior". I am up to date with the Mental Out manga and I understand the mechanics of Synthesize Grid/Absolute Leaf. I don't know exactly where to begin. Could someone summarize Kokuchou and the Relic's general powers?

 

[Axscell]

Hello, I'm new to this forum. I was thinking about making a page on the Vs wiki concerning Kokuchou Mayui and "Senior". I am up to date with the Mental Out manga and I understand the mechanics of Synthesize Grid/Absolute Leaf. I don't know exactly where to begin. Could someone summarize Kokuchou and the Relic's general powers?

I haven't read the Mental Out manga myself, so I can't really be of much help. But if it's a summary that you're looking for, I'd say the wiki is a good place to start.

 

[Malachi_Daley]

I haven't read the Mental Out manga myself, so I can't really be of much help. But if it's a summary that you're looking for, I'd say the wiki is a good place to start.

Thank you

 

[MrOMG]

I mean, the quote does flat-out state that those specific dimensions do actually exist:



But yeah, in case this still isn’t enough evidence for you, and this is just going to end up going in circles, we’re just gonna have to agree to disagree. I guess if it ever does end up going to a CRT, we can continue the debate there.

To backtrack a bit, I actually don’t think separating the concept of dimensions is the best way to go, for now at least. It’s certainly an option, but I don’t think it’s the best.

I’m saying this mainly because of the evidence we have for the 11 dimensions being non-compactified vs the one character statement (from the manga) claiming that they’re compactified.

For one, past explanations (and even recent showings from the very same manga) of how teleportation and the higher dimensions work, in general, points to them being anything but compactified.



This initial explanation, along with several subsequent ones, state that teleporters operate by calculating their position in and literally transporting themselves to the 11th dimension, which wouldn’t be possible if the dimensions were truly compactified. This is mainly because if they were, they’d be curled up to a subatomic scale and wouldn’t serve as navigable spaces for macroscopic objects, which wouldn’t make much sense for teleporters since there is explicit mention of them transporting themselves to the 11-D space.

These panels from the manga too, clearly shows the 11th dimension being an extended navigable space, which again doesn’t make sense for compactified dimensions.

For all we know, this (recent explanation from the manga) could be a case of a character just being wrong or her explanation being very specific to her own ability.

It's easier to think of it as one of the possible "what if" theories again. And both interpretations are right about something.

 

[XDragnoir]

I mean, the quote does flat-out state that those specific dimensions do actually exist:

No one here is challenging the notion of they existing.

But yeah, in case this still isn’t enough evidence for you, and this is just going to end up going in circles, we’re just gonna have to agree to disagree. I guess if it ever does end up going to a CRT, we can continue the debate there.

It's not enough because the important question, how many dimensions we actually have, isn't answered anywhere. I won't have another thread about this because there has been no new info surrounding Curtana and the dimensions, bringing it up again is just waste of time.

To backtrack a bit, I actually don’t think separating the concept of dimensions is the best way to go, for now at least. It’s certainly an option, but I don’t think it’s the best.

I’m saying this mainly because of the evidence we have for the 11 dimensions being non-compactified vs the one character statement (from the manga) claiming that they’re compactified.

I'd like that if not for two problems:

First, the manga is way more recent than the statements from the novel, so it does take precendence IMO.

Second, they don't really contradict each other, there's no problem in having multiple concepts of dimensions in a single setting AFAIK, we'd probably do more harm than help by having them treated as the same.

For one, past explanations (and even recent showings from the very same manga) of how teleportation and the higher dimensions work, in general, points to them being anything but compactified.

This initial explanation, along with several subsequent ones, state that teleporters operate by calculating their position in and literally transporting themselves to the 11th dimension, which wouldn’t be possible if the dimensions were truly compactified. This is mainly because if they were, they’d be curled up to a subatomic scale and wouldn’t serve as navigable spaces for macroscopic objects, which wouldn’t make much sense for teleporters since there is explicit mention of them transporting themselves to the 11-D space.

Now, I agree with you on this part, but you have to understand this is mostly a separate issue than what impacts Curtana.

Yes, the new info does make the teleportation seem pretty strange, but this is fiction, I agree that getting smaller than a quark doesn’t sound like a way to move faster in 3D space, but it is what it is.

When it comes to Curtana the debate is "Compact vs Large Dimensions", here it's just "How compact dimensions could do this?", there's just no way to argue against it being compactified given how explicit the manga is, we'd have an easier time arguing the manga is non-canon.

These panels from the manga too, clearly shows the 11th dimension being an extended navigable space, which again doesn’t make sense for compactified dimensions.

For all we know, this (recent explanation from the manga) could be a case of a character just being wrong or her explanation being very specific to her own ability.

Yes, also agree with this, that's why we don't have to rush with the downgrades, the manga has been consistently bringing it up so we should wait to see how it's developed from now on before actually applying any changes.

The afterlife is reliant on the pure world and Coronzon would nuke every soul that existed. It's crazier from a story perspective, not a powerscaling one, but I guess I shoulda surmised that much already since the afterlife is still a part of creation. In Aleister's ceremony with Aiwass would all the souls that would be in heaven/hell be sent to his scientific heaven at least?

Oh got it, that's really crazy indeed. I think Aleister would end up destroying all of these souls, kinda like a sacrifice for the greater good.

Also, while we are talking about souls, I really, really wish we will get a more detailed explanation regarding soul ranks in the close future, we just went to hell and didn't get much info about souls at all.

It would mean Magic Gods could vamoose the phase(s) and revive themselves which contradicts Othinus' statements about there being no such thing as true resurrection.

We've seen at least 3 forms of actual resurrection in GT so I am not even sure we should take Othinus' statement as valid, maybe check the raws to see if something was lost in the translation.

Similarly, Magic Gods having the power to freely manipulate phases would mean they could enter heaven if they’d like regardless of verse mechanics. What makes it so different from traversing to say Aleisters shifted phase or the Black World if all phases are identical?

About this, I am pretty sure that when High Priest said that he was simply talking about what happens after death, rather than anything to do with being able to rewrite the Phases while alive, he even says something like "the gates of the Pure Land or of heaven will never open to us".

The quotes never implies this is any kind of limit to their phase manipulation limits or whatever, I've no idea why this interpretation is so popular.

 

[Enter_Bluey]

Hi, speaking on true magic Gods I'm curious on something(also, I think two different concepts of dimensions in verse would make sense, given the separation of magic and science to begin with).

But we have the statements of true magic gods having not crossed the "abyss' when it comes to the four worlds(sephirot). It was like them being superior to binah(8=3) but still being within the Assiah. I remember coronzon is like a higher being that can travel the world tree and prevents others from ascending, and then ascending makes you more abstract so her soup needed a physical body to be on Earth.

Combining that with magic gods being able to basically yeet all phases within the surface world, and having the greatest amount of power. Would beings like Coronzon, and anyone else higher in the tree basically be above them to such an extent too? (Also curious about how these worlds themselves are treated here)

 

[XDragnoir]

Hi, speaking on true magic Gods I'm curious on something(also, I think two different concepts of dimensions in verse would make sense, given the separation of magic and science to begin with).

But we have the statements of true magic gods having not crossed the "abyss' when it comes to the four worlds(sephirot). It was like them being superior to binah(8=3) but still being within the Assiah. I remember coronzon is like a higher being that can travel the world tree and prevents others from ascending, and then ascending makes you more abstract so her soup needed a physical body to be on Earth.

I just want to add that every soul needs a body to be in the physical world, that's not really exclusive to higher beings.

And "makes you more abstract" isn't that correct either.

Combining that with magic gods being able to basically yeet all phases within the surface world, and having the greatest amount of power. Would beings like Coronzon, and anyone else higher in the tree basically be above them to such an extent too? (Also curious about how these worlds themselves are treated here)

Above them in what exactly? Destruction capability? Knowledge? Soul hierarchy?

The first, as far as has been shown, is a no, the 2nd is a yes but for indexing purposes it's nearly useless so far, the third is a yes and I really wanted to do a thread to discuss and add Toaru soul/mind stuff, but all these discussions about tiers took all my interest from it.

For the last part, the Four Worlds mean pretty much nothing here in the wiki so far and that's completely Kamachi's fault, he just keeps adding new stuff without giving proper explanation of how the different concepts already in the setting interact with each other.

 

[Enter_Bluey]

I just want to add that every soul needs a body to be in the physical world, that's not really exclusive to higher beings.

And "makes you more abstract" isn't that correct either.

I guess abstract isn't the word I'm looking for there yeah. I just remember something about coronzon and aiwass needing an avatar or vessel in the form of a physical body to be there. Wasn't it because they couldn't be comprehended in the human realm? Or something along those lines for their own souls. They definitely ascended in some way

Above them in what exactly? Destruction capability? Knowledge? Soul hierarchy?

The first, as far as has been shown, is a no, the 2nd is a yes but for indexing purposes it's nearly useless so far, the third is a yes and I really wanted to do a thread to discuss and add Toaru soul/mind stuff, but all these discussions about tiers took all my interest from it.

For the last part, the Four Worlds mean pretty much nothing here in the wiki so far and that's completely Kamachi's fault, he just keeps adding new stuff without giving proper explanation of how the different concepts already in the setting interact with each other.

Basically all the ways you listed tbh. Since my one thing with this novel is dropping this new interesting stuff, then not explaining it. Or taking a long time to explain them. From what we've seen magic Gods have the most destructive capability just by existing, and reached basically a pinnacle of magic. But they haven't ascended the tree, which is cool and all but then what the heck does that mean or do right now?

Being in the world if assiah, the physical world means they haven't ascended the tree to like the world of Yetzirah. If I understand that right anyway...but aside from having more knowledge or a superior soul it's hard to tell. Like dragging an angel down in levels affects all the four worlds. A magic God affects phases by existing, but is their existence able to impact these worlds like that too?

Or someone like Coronzon who basically controls ascending through the tree, is she necessarily superior to true magic gods simply because if that? You would think higher soul heirarchy would lead to something like that, but..

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

For the last part, the Four Worlds mean pretty much nothing here in the wiki so far and that's completely Kamachi's fault, he just keeps adding new stuff without giving proper explanation of how the different concepts already in the setting interact with each other.

Methinks the main issue with this is Kamachi just doing them because he finds 'em neat and cool and introduces 'em to the novels without really putting much forethought on how it affects the verse as a whole... although, that's generally an issue with a lot of authors as a whole rather than a thing that is limited to him, so it is what it is.

---

Anyways, I am done with my revamp of Gunha's profile. One step closer to my goal of me making a CRT that revamps the Level 5 profiles for the better. Next up on my list is Misaki, Kakine and then Mugino. Although, Accelerator's profile is a pain to get done since his profile is big and wordy, lol, so he's going to get done last! Either way, I might be able to do the CRT in a few months!

 

[Churronzon]

We've seen at least 3 forms of actual resurrection in GT so I am not even sure we should take Othinus' statement as valid, maybe check the raws to see if something was lost in the translation.

Yeah it’s really weird, but even the first 3 pages in the GT12 preview is hammering in how difficult resurrection is supposed to be.

About this, I am pretty sure that when High Priest said that he was simply talking about what happens after death, rather than anything to do with being able to rewrite the Phases while alive, he even says something like "the gates of the Pure Land or of heaven will never open to us".

The quotes never implies this is any kind of limit to their phase manipulation limits or whatever, I've no idea why this interpretation is so popular.

Fair enough. I was just thinking that if Magic Gods died while retaining the ability to manipulate phases they should be able to enter heaven, but maybe they get too weak to keep that ability, especially considering the quotes they have of their spiritual rank (or lack thereof).

(Also curious about how these worlds themselves are treated here)

Exactly like phases. In OT4, Gabriel is described as simultaneously being in a higher realm separate from the humans in Asiyah and in the phase of heaven, and we know every phase still overlays the physical world. I'm just prone to overthinking it sometimes.

“The Tree of Sephirot is basically a ranking chart. It has the ranking of the souls of God,
angels, and humans graded on a ten-step pyramid. Just think of it like that.”

“To put it bluntly, it’s like a map of God’s absolute reign that basically says that this
territory is for humans and this territory is for God—so don’t go coming in all willy-nilly.”

“The number of people and the number of angels are all decided beforehand, so
normally, a human cannot climb to the status of angel. It goes both ways; an angel also
cannot fall to the level of a human.”

“Incidentally, when we say low, we mean things like hell or demons.
It’s the ultraviolet rays in comparison to infrared light, and low-frequency waves
compared to high-frequency ones. They’re of opposite phases. They just have different
wavelengths, but they’re all the same waves. So normally, if an angel were standing next
to a demon, neither of them would realize it. They would have to interfere with the
wavelength in between heaven and hell, or Earth.”

Buddhism has its own rules and Christianity its own. The world is like an
enormous canvas with paints of many colors overlapping one another.

If you think stuff gets too convoluted and you reached an impossible or irrational conclusion, it helps to realize original sources aren't much better off in this regard. As Regardie once again put it, the four worlds are superimposed over the physical reality with the main difference being the quality of matter.

 

[XDragnoir]

I guess abstract isn't the word I'm looking for there yeah. I just remember something about coronzon and aiwass needing an avatar or vessel in the form of a physical body to be there. Wasn't it because they couldn't be comprehended in the human realm? Or something along those lines for their own souls. They definitely ascended in some way

More or less? They need it to properly manifest, both to interact with stuff and use their powers, but Aiwass himself doesn't have a body since Accelerator shoot him in OT and has been just a bunch of disembodied energy ever since and people have been comprehending him pretty fine I'd say.

Only thing we really have in that direction is Aiwass talking about how the human language/world is limited in comparison to his own language, which honestly doesn't mean as much as it seems.

Basically all the ways you listed tbh. Since my one thing with this novel is dropping this new interesting stuff, then not explaining it. Or taking a long time to explain them. From what we've seen magic Gods have the most destructive capability just by existing, and reached basically a pinnacle of magic. But they haven't ascended the tree, which is cool and all but then what the heck does that mean or do right now?

As I said, abyss crossing and the four worlds in general don't mean much for indexing purposes rn, even in-verse it doesn't feel that special. AP/Destruction wise mainly, all the Abyss Crossers have been inconsistent in this regard even among themselves, when including non crossers in the mix AP just gets even less consistent (not just AP, destruction and hax as well).

A magic God affects phases by existing, but is their existence able to impact these worlds like that too?

Depends if you count them as Phases.

Or someone like Coronzon who basically controls ascending through the tree, is she necessarily superior to true magic gods simply because if that? You would think higher soul heirarchy would lead to something like that, but..

In her true form while in Da'at? Most likely, with the flesh and bone body tho, definitely not.

Methinks the main issue with this is Kamachi just doing them because he finds 'em neat and cool and introduces 'em to the novels without really putting much forethought on how it affects the verse as a whole... although, that's generally an issue with a lot of authors as a whole rather than a thing that is limited to him, so it is what it is.

I guess you're right, but that doesn't change how stupid it is to do things this way, Kamachi has the experience and time to manage this kind of stuff, I honestly think he used to explain things properly in OT and early NT, but he somehow got worse with time.

Like, I feel like I understand more about Fiamma who had a super BS ability than I understand the abilities of Trismegistus, Aradia and Old Mary (mainly Risk 4s, but their basic kit is pretty vague at times as well).

Yeah it’s really weird, but even the first 3 pages in the GT12 preview is hammering in how difficult resurrection is supposed to be.

I've not read these yet but still, since GT started we've had Old Mary, Aleister, Alice and CRC using some kind of resurrection, meanwhile in NT we already had Othinus bringing Kakine back and I guess the whole deal with Lilith.

It's just something that has happened too many times to take that one statement that doesn't really elaborate much into account, IMO. Tho, where does this quote about there being no resurrection come from?

Fair enough. I was just thinking that if Magic Gods died while retaining the ability to manipulate phases they should be able to enter heaven, but maybe they get too weak to keep that ability, especially considering the quotes they have of their spiritual rank (or lack thereof).

I mean, at their level, something powerful enough to kill them would need to, at the bare minimum, be able to control phases themselves or limit them so that they can't come back.

Like, we're talking about MGs here, they won't die of old age, diseases or even most types of damage (given what we've seen Othinus and Nephthys survive), to kill them it requires either a specialized spell or a power even greater than theirs.

You say they "get too weak" after they die, but I think that's just not how it works, death doesn't really weaken them, whatever kills them has to do it beforehand, the only thing HP says is that they don't have a proper place to go after death.

If you think stuff gets too convoluted and you reached an impossible or irrational conclusion, it helps to realize original sources aren't much better off in this regard. As Regardie once again put it, the four worlds are superimposed over the physical reality with the main difference being the quality of matter.

That's cool, I've never read that but that's exactly what I've been assuming the Four Worlds have to be interpreted as for quite some time now (mainly because Phases are more or less like that, superimposed layers over reality).

Still, I am not sure I like the idea of the 11 Sephirah and the Four Worlds being Phases themselves, that seems pretty bad for indexing purposes and even worse when it comes to wtf is happening inside of Toaru.

 

[Churronzon]

I mean, at their level, something powerful enough to kill them would need to, at the bare minimum, be able to control phases themselves or limit them so that they can't come back.

Nah, Noukan channeling Aleister did it. Omg you just reminded me Zombie died with her phase manip abilities and hasn't come back nor has any Magic God considered the possibility that she could. Unless ur saying that Aleister's weakening spell affected her after her death.

Tho, where does this quote about there being no resurrection come from?

In the same quote that namedropped CRC in NT22R so Kamachi was clearly thinking about future volumes at the time.
Othinus stated that even Shijie-Xian like Niang-Niang only had a false funeral.

“I am saying she has a chance if we get her in an ambulance where she can receive a
transfusion and stitches. There is no such thing as complete resurrection in this world, so
even Christian Rosenkreuz’s corpse simply does not decompose. Even the Chinese Shijie-
Xian only has a false funeral to cut their ties to this world, so they do not actually die and
come back to life. Death is a holy ground. Once people die, that is the end.”

That god had once destroyed the entire world, remade it as she saw fit, and created a world
where all the dead in the world had been saved in order to drive Kamijou to the edge, so
now she had to describe the inconvenience she herself had brought about.

Another one from NT22R.

Once someone died, that was the end of it.

There was no such thing as resurrection beyond what the god in heaven had declared.

Here's the GT12 section

どんな人間だって、死ぬ時だけは一人だ。ちようぜつしゃましてアリス=アナザーバイブルのような『超絶者』の中でも特異な個体の手で直接殺されてしまったとあっては。そもそもの話をしよう。天国に行けるとでも思ったか?どんな理由があれ、敵を規定して攻撃する事での解決を選び続けた。敵なんか必要あったのか。そこに疑問を持たなかった。そんなヤツは地獄に落ちて当然だ。よみがえ死者は蘇らない。 絶対に生き返らない。別れは永遠だ。そもそも一度完全に死んだ人間が何事もなく再び息を吹き返すなんて馬鹿げた事、起きてはならない事態なのは子供でも分かるはずだ。例外なんかない。とある少年だけ抜け道を通るなんて許されない。達人とまで呼ばれ、世界最大の魔術結社『黄金』を創設したメイザースやウェストコットの直接の師匠だったアンナ=キングスフォードさえ、自分一人の力だけで済ませようとはしなかった。足りないと考えたから策を弄した。もう一人の達人。きまぐその力の大きさに反する、徹底した気紛れと遊び心の塊。クリスチャン=ローゼンクロイツ･･････そう名乗っていた誰かが用意した人造の地獄を無理矢理に横から奪って乗っ取って、そこまでしなければ手の届かない秘儀だったのだ。ギリギリで余裕がないのだから、その分、確率だって変動する。 当然。簡単に成功するはずがない。おも成功してしまって良いのか、という想いだってあるだろう。クリスチャン=ローゼンクロイツはあれだけ準備に手間暇をかけても失敗し、全てを『きひひ』乗っ取ったアンナ=キングスフォードだって結局は少年に譲るのが精一杯で、自分自身は生き残れなかったじゃないか。死は絶対だ。彼女にとっても余裕はなかったのだ。達人とて、失敗を覚悟するべきハイリスク案件ではあったのだ。だから、こんな結果になっても当然と言える。あの上条当麻だって、死んでしまえばその先なんかない。『いひひひひひひひひひ☆』

death doesn't really weaken them

I mean if you only ever trained up your body but not your soul, it could be considered a weakening if you're stripped of your flesh.

It's like the opposite of Sethian Gnosticism where Yaldabaoth was scared/jealous of Adam's power and weakened him by trapping him in a vessel of flesh and a dream of ignorance by viewing the material world as reality.

In Toaru if you die without gnosis or awakening, you don't get a benefit to the soul (no shit huh). Just the downsides I guess.

“The Gnostics also believed the physical body was a nuisance and wished to free their soul from that prison, but with no clear definition for the soul, you will have a hard time becoming an omniscient and omnipotent being through nothing more than death. If that was all it took, the losing side of every war would have obliterated the victor in revenge.”

 

[Enter_Bluey]

That is an interesting way to put it. I mean training up your flesh, but not really the soul. So while reaching this power, their souls had not been enlightened, and they have no place after death either. Death is not usually considered for them given what's shown, and a magic gods mindset basically doesn't involve losing. I forget how most of the magic gods came to be aside from like high priest, but I don't remember it involving their souls in such a way.

I guess the four worlds being treated something like phases makes sense. At the same time magic gods can who control all phases are described as not crossing the abyss...but if it's anything like them having no place in heaven, but can still control it, may be similar to that.

Also yeah...some of the transcendents abilities weren't as simple to understand honestly compared to previous volumes

 

[XDragnoir]

Nah, Noukan channeling Aleister did it. Omg you just reminded me Zombie died with her phase manip abilities and hasn't come back nor has any Magic God considered the possibility that she could. Unless ur saying that Aleister's weakening spell affected her after her death.

He did it offscreen, but I do think Aleister's weakning spell cut her off from her MG powers before she was killed, it's never really clarified but this makes more sense (if the AAA could fight Zombie before weakning her, it wouldn't need to weaken any of them, after all).

In the same quote that namedropped CRC in NT22R so Kamachi was clearly thinking about future volumes at the time.
Othinus stated that even Shijie-Xian like Niang-Niang only had a false funeral.

Thanks

I mean if you only ever trained up your body but not your soul, it could be considered a weakening if you're stripped of your flesh.

Is this this just a general thing or are you saying that's the case of the MGs? Because if their souls had zero alterations to them then they would still have a place to go after death.

Anyway, that's not really what I meant by "death doesn't weaken them" anyway, weakening would be retaining their powers in a weaker form and I don't think that happens, but I also don't think MGs really lose their powers simply because they're limited to their souls now, is there any reason for their body to be the one retainer of their powers?

I guess the four worlds being treated something like phases makes sense. At the same time magic gods can who control all phases are described as not crossing the abyss...but if it's anything like them having no place in heaven, but can still control it, may be similar to that.

If the Four Worlds are Phases then they're completely useless to get a higher tier in the future.

 

[Churronzon]

He did it offscreen, but I do think Aleister's weakning spell cut her off from her MG powers before she was killed, it's never really clarified but this makes more sense (if the AAA could fight Zombie before weakning her, it wouldn't need to weaken any of them, after all).

HP and Aleister state the opposite.

Whether you had a spell or not, you
would need to defeat Zombie, a Magic God, to replace her spell! That’s no different from
locking the key inside the vault. Your initial argument doesn’t hold up!!”

“True.”

Just because AAA works once on a Magic God doesn't mean it'd work multiple times, hence the need of a weakening spell. Relying on your opponent underestimating you 10 times isn't a solid plan. Besides, Noukan soloing a Magic God in any state was already ridiculous.

Is this this just a general thing or are you saying that's the case of the MGs? Because if their souls had zero alterations to them then they would still have a place to go after death.

In general, for everyone. I don't disagree that MGs would still go to the afterlife, but that they'd be weaker than those who built up the soul. Unless we assume Magic Gods had a comparable or superior soul rank to someone like Lilith on top of having a significantly stronger physical body.

Anyway, that's not really what I meant by "death doesn't weaken them" anyway, weakening would be retaining their powers in a weaker form and I don't think that happens, but I also don't think MGs really lose their powers simply because they're limited to their souls now, is there any reason for their body to be the one retainer of their powers?

That's fine, I don't believe in either conclusion either way. I was only positing a hypothetical for why Magic Gods wouldn't be able to leave despite having phase manip when they were alive.

 

[XDragnoir]

HP and Aleister state the opposite.

It says defeated rather than killed, so she was still more than likely nerfed before being killed, the main thing about the Layered MGs was that you'd need to kill them infinite times, I really doubt Noukan somehow managed to kill Zombie infinite times.

Just add "kill" in that part of my post and you'll see what I meant: (if the AAA could fight and kill Zombie before weakning her, it wouldn't need to weaken any of them, after all).

So most of my point still stands.

In general, for everyone. I don't disagree that MGs would still go to the afterlife, but that they'd be weaker than those who built up the soul.

What?

Sorry, I am really confused by what you wrote here, you disagree that they’re weaker than those who built up their own souls?

I feel like this last part doesn't really tie back to what I was talking about, as I was talking about the MGs themselves and not how other characters compare to them strength wise.

Unless we assume Magic Gods had a comparable or superior soul rank to someone like Lilith on top of having a significantly stronger physical body.

Why would we assume that? It's pretty explicit in NT22 that Lilith's soul is of a higher rank than theirs, I really have no idea why you brought this up, how does this connect to the debate about death weakening them?

That's fine, I don't believe in either conclusion either way. I was only positing a hypothetical for why Magic Gods wouldn't be able to leave despite having phase manip when they were alive.

I think I hadn't noticed this before but what do you mean by "leave"? Like, leave where? The entire point was that the MGs don't enter any afterlife after they die (likely because their souls were improperly strengthened), so what would they be leaving in your hypothetical?

 

[Churronzon]

I lost the plot of what we were on about.

I think I hadn't noticed this before but what do you mean by "leave"? Like, leave where? The entire point was that the MGs don't enter any afterlife after they die (likely because their souls were improperly strengthened), so what would they be leaving in your hypothetical?

Which one of us was roleplaying that Magic Gods don't go to any afterlife; I'll take the opposite side and go from there.
(I was talking about leaving hell, Niflheim, Tartarus, Yomi, Divine Comedy Hell, etc)

Just add "kill" in that part of my post and you'll see what I meant: (if the AAA could fight and kill Zombie before weakning her, it wouldn't need to weaken any of them, after all).

Alright, makes sense to me.

Why would we assume that? It's pretty explicit in NT22 that Lilith's soul is of a higher rank than theirs, I really have no idea why you brought this up, how does this connect to the debate about death weakening them?

MGs were insurmountably stronger than Lilith with a physical vessel but the same should not be true while everyone is an exposed soul, which I saw as an implication that there's a difference in specs for being alive vs dead. Also I didn't know if everyone agreed that Lilith has a higher soul rank than Magic Gods

 

[XDragnoir]

I lost the plot of what we were on about.

Which one of us was roleplaying that Magic Gods don't go to any afterlife; I'll take the opposite side and go from there.
(I was talking about leaving hell, Niflheim, Tartarus, Yomi, Divine Comedy Hell, etc)

Role-playing? What are you talking about?

And I don't think you can take the "opposite side" here, the quote is pretty clear when saying that the gates of Heaven or of the Pure Land won't open for MGs, there's no reason these others would, do you actually have any quote saying MGs can go to either of these?

MGs were insurmountably stronger than Lilith with a physical vessel but the same should not be true while everyone is an exposed soul, which I saw as an implication that there's a difference in specs for being alive vs dead. Also I didn't know if everyone agreed that Lilith has a higher soul rank than Magic Gods

I am pretty sure it's implied that Lilith is an Abyss Crosser (as she was the only one who could form a pair with Coronzon in this regard).

Anyway, "insurmountably stronger" here doesn't mean anything, as I said before Soul Ranking/Abyss Crossing has nothing to do with power level as far as we can confirm.

 

[Axscell]

And I don't think you can take the "opposite side" here, the quote is pretty clear when saying that the gates of Heaven or of the Pure Land won't open for MGs, there's no reason these others would, do you actually have any quote saying MGs can go to either of these?

On the topic of souls and the afterlife, how exactly does High Priest's Intersection of Six Paths ability factor into this?

Ngl, as the story goes on, Kamachi's worldbuilding just keeps looking like more and more of a convoluted mess.