Toaru Discussion thread New Fourms #1

[Aseka]

I don't know if it needs another CRT or we can add to Alice's, but miracle is something that can ignore causality. Perhaps we can add this to anyone who can use miracles beside Alice, like Fiamma.

Just then, Baby Lilith moved her small hand to draw a circle in the air.

But that made no sense.

Given the comparative speeds, it was too late to move your hand after Magick: Flaming_Sword had already been released. Nevertheless, it worked.

Consistency fell apart. Causality was ignored.

In other words, it was a miracle.

With a sound like a saw’s teeth bending, the tip of the Magick: Flaming_Sword was twisted off course. It was caught by the shield-like circle Lilith had drawn, it spun around, and it was trapped in a never-ending circuit.

Aleister’s group had been saved by this unnatural phenomenon, but there was no happiness on the silver girl’s face.

“Coronzon!!” said the baby. “Is this really what you want!? You are no longer the solitary joker!! Didn’t you hear your traveling companion calling to you!?”

“Silence, Lilith. This is a showdown for my generation. Only we can understand the field of combative power found here!! This is not about logic. Only our blood can calm this curse!!”

Lilith was an exposed soul.

If she continued causing miracles in that state, she would disappear before she could be placed inside a new vessel.

 

[Axscell]

I don't know if it needs another CRT or we can add to Alice's, but miracle is something that can ignore causality. Perhaps we can add this to anyone who can use miracles beside Alice, like Fiamma.

I'm pretty sure Lilith's miracle was a different thing from Alice's and Fiamma's. With Alice, it specifically refers to her special abilities, all of which have been named (Walking, Crawling, Flicking etc), and with Fiamma, it was referring to miracles performed by Jesus in the bible.

Kamachi seems to use that term for everything that is especially extraordinary.

This could change in the future, and Kamachi could decide that all miracles are the same/intrinsically related, but for now, there's no reason to assume that IMO.

 

[XDragnoir]

CRT's done. Hope I didn't miss anything.

Alice Anotherbible (Toaru) Revision

This CRT will feature additions and changes for Alice Anotherbible from Toaru Majutsu no Index. Tier Proposal: At least 9B Physically as Child Alice, At least 5B Physically as Inner Alice, far higher with Grabbing, At least High 1-C, likely far higher with Live Adventures in Wonderland...

vsbattles.com

After that one, are you already planning the CRT for Dragon Lord and CRC?

 

[Churronzon]

I'm making a CRC profile which doesn't need a CRT unless you plan on making the Rota spell High 1-C, but that can be done afterwards. I'm fine with leaving it at unknown, don't really care.

My CRT for Dragon Lord Touma and Aleiszon is p much done. We just hit the CRT limit cap

 

[XDragnoir]

I'm making a CRC profile which doesn't need a CRT unless you plan on making the Rota spell High 1-C, but that can be done afterwards. I'm fine with leaving it at unknown, don't really care.

My CRT for Dragon Lord Touma and Aleiszon is p much done. We just hit the CRT limit cap

I don't care about it either, so that's fine.

Do you have a sandbox for them? I'd like to see the changes.

 

[Churronzon]

no

 

[StrangerALover]

I would like to object, why is the velocity of the CRC projectile so small? She literally ignores the very concept of distance. Isn't that infinite speed?

 

[Aseka]

I would like to object, why is the velocity of the CRC projectile so small? She literally ignores the very concept of distance. Isn't that infinite speed?

Which part?

 

[XDragnoir]

I would like to object, why is the velocity of the CRC projectile so small? She literally ignores the very concept of distance. Isn't that infinite speed?

That's literally a single quote which has absolutely no support to it and is first and foremost a lot of flowery language.

Indeed, Alice got a way more likely feat of infinite speed and she blocked that attack very casually without it.

 

[StrangerALover]

That's literally a single quote which has absolutely no support to it and is first and foremost a lot of flowery language.

Indeed, Alice got a way more likely feat of infinite speed and she blocked that attack very casually without it.

Then why couldn't even Touma react when he was reacting to HT attacks that are clearly above sub r
Besides, he literally slows down time in his precog, so why didn't he react and was killed by a projectile without even having time to really understand anything?

 

[XDragnoir]

Then why couldn't even Touma react when he was reacting to HT attacks that are clearly above sub r

I am not saying the attack isn't fast, am I? Did I ever say that at any moment?

I said there's not even close to enough support to take that quote as a literal statement. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof, simply as that.

Besides, he literally slows down time in his precog

Although I get what you mean, I would be more careful with the exact words, Touma does not "literally" slow down time, he just perceives things as moving slowly (and this isn't exactly consistent anyway, although it did happen more often in GT iirc).

so why didn't he react and was killed by a projectile without even having time to really understand anything?

That just means the attack was faster than he could dodge, doesn't have anything to do with Infinite or Immeasurable levels of speed, there's no support for that.

 

[Alsotime]

Since it’s been a good couple of novels since their introduction and certain members like Aradia have some solid feats for general scaling, is it possible for the transcendents to get profiles on the wiki? This would also help with some of the ability additions Alice should have on her profile.

[maybe they could get a transcendent physiology page too, akin to the esper one]

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

Since it’s been a good couple of novels since their introduction and certain members like Aradia have some solid feats for general scaling, is it possible for the transcendents to get profiles on the wiki? This would also help with some of the ability additions Alice should have on her profile.

[maybe they could get a transcendent physiology page too, akin to the esper one]

I made a sandbox for an Aradia's profile. Basically complete, IIRC. Am still waiting for the general consensus of Risk 4 and if they should scale to Othinus, tho.

 

[Alsotime]

Am still waiting for the general consensus of Risk 4 and if they should scale to Othinus, tho.

Ohh okay, since the transcendents do draw power from Alice, can’t that be used as another point for them generally scaling to Othinus at least whilst using risk 4?

 

[Churronzon]

Another justification for Alice's mind manip resistance:

Alice is heavily implied to not be affected by Mental Out, much like Anna and CRC weren't.

It belonged to Academy City’s #5.

But he didn’t know who used that power or what they looked like.

He did wonder if a psychological esper power would work on the Transcendents like Anna and Alice.

A high school boy like Kamijou didn’t know even a fraction of the legends surrounding Christian Rosencreutz, but if he really was the kind of person found in a children’s book, then he would have gone through intense training and obtained near inhuman power. That process could have altered his mind to an extent that not even the #5 Level 5 could control it.

You don't have to add it if you don't want to though, just listing stuff I find.

 

[Alsotime]

Another justification for Alice's mind manip resistance:

Definitely another justification for the internal ability immunity that was mentioned in the Alice thread

 

[XDragnoir]

Ohh okay, since the transcendents do draw power from Alice, can’t that be used as another point for them generally scaling to Othinus at least whilst using risk 4?

Sadly no, the Risk 4s were super inconsistent and drawing power from Alice also doesn't mean much when it comes to scaling (mainly cause she will only scale to Othinus through hax).

 

[RigelBR7]

Touma vs The Presence.

Who wins? https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Kamijou_Touma Touma in the base form. VS https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/The_Presence The Presence (DC Comics. The Presence is in its crisis cosmology). Equalized speed. Touma has prior knowledge of the Presence. Fight location: Tournament of...

vsbattles.com

Hey guys. Is there any way you can access this crt to analyze this battle?

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

I finally found my Aradia sandbox. It is essentially done, but tell me what you folks think and what could be done to improve its overall quality... Also. Ignore Kimi's incomplete page. It is a WIP and I am too busy (drowning in salt from gacha) to work on it, atm.

 

[Churronzon]

It looks amazing
I'd still add:
higher combat/flight speed with triple reload via these two quotes.

Spoiler

“Hee hee. That’s right. Using the Secret Chief’s power is a broken spell that lets us fight
the entire magic side on our own. But it is not enough to come out on top when fighting
another Aradia.”

Immediately after, the two blurred into motion.

They clashed.

Aradia and Aradia ran along the side deck, tore into the ship’s armor, and scattered sparks
as they crashed into each other a few times. Their fingers sharply intersected, their feet
ran, and they either swung their mic stand around in a hand or straddled it to fly in the
night sky. They drew out large, twisted arcs and turned those into unorthodox loop-the-
loops while their lights collided over and over before the two witches dropped straight
toward the aircraft cruiser’s deck once more.

(If I only knew where the unseen rail is.)

Even as they fought fiercely enough to melt and distort the side deck’s armor, the witch
goddess kept her thoughts cool and calm.

(Triple upon triple upon triple upon triple. My Triple Reload increases my power
threefold with each new good deed, which is like creating a single rail. If I can predict hers,
I can block her and keep her dominos from continuing to fall.)

Even in a battle between Aradias, how they used their spells could create a difference in
strength. If one continued to grow her power with Triple Reload and the other had that
process stopped early, the resultant difference could be used to end the battle.

and

Spoiler

Aradia tore through the night sky on her mic stand, bringing down one stealth craft after
another.

Her magic was based on tripling. So the more she brought down, the greater her power.

Once she got the ball rolling, she had nothing to fear. She weaved in an S-shape to dodge
the shots from the 35cm ship guns firing from the giant bird wings spread out overhead.
When antiair missiles were vertically launched from the deck, she let them follow her for
a bit before she spiraled around one of the five legs until they had all crashed into that
“wall”.

The antiair laser units could shoot down cruise or ballistic missiles with greater than
99.9% accuracy, but not even they could catch the witch goddess flitting this way and that
in the sky.

She slipped through the deadly net pouring down like rain.

“I had heard laser weapons aren’t visible, so are those weird green lines the equivalent of
tracer rounds?”

(The giant bird is made up of 10 ships and each one is loaded with 30 or 40 planes. That
means they could carry nearly 400 in all. And since I’ve taken out- hm? How many was
it?)

Is Aerobatics indexable?

Cloth creation. She likely created the lollipop too

Aradia didn’t even need to snap her fingers.

A spiral lollipop had appeared in her hand.

"At least" needs to be added prior to the planet level rating, as the justification is scaling off of Magic Gods who have the same wording.

Her gallery having two images of her getting incapped twice is weird lol. I'd replace 'em with the one with her double, but that's w/e.

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

It looks amazing
I'd still add:
higher combat/flight speed with triple reload via these two quotes.

Spoiler

“Hee hee. That’s right. Using the Secret Chief’s power is a broken spell that lets us fight
the entire magic side on our own. But it is not enough to come out on top when fighting
another Aradia.”

Immediately after, the two blurred into motion.

They clashed.

Aradia and Aradia ran along the side deck, tore into the ship’s armor, and scattered sparks
as they crashed into each other a few times. Their fingers sharply intersected, their feet
ran, and they either swung their mic stand around in a hand or straddled it to fly in the
night sky. They drew out large, twisted arcs and turned those into unorthodox loop-the-
loops while their lights collided over and over before the two witches dropped straight
toward the aircraft cruiser’s deck once more.

(If I only knew where the unseen rail is.)

Even as they fought fiercely enough to melt and distort the side deck’s armor, the witch
goddess kept her thoughts cool and calm.

(Triple upon triple upon triple upon triple. My Triple Reload increases my power
threefold with each new good deed, which is like creating a single rail. If I can predict hers,
I can block her and keep her dominos from continuing to fall.)

Even in a battle between Aradias, how they used their spells could create a difference in
strength. If one continued to grow her power with Triple Reload and the other had that
process stopped early, the resultant difference could be used to end the battle.

and

Spoiler

Aradia tore through the night sky on her mic stand, bringing down one stealth craft after
another.

Her magic was based on tripling. So the more she brought down, the greater her power.

Once she got the ball rolling, she had nothing to fear. She weaved in an S-shape to dodge
the shots from the 35cm ship guns firing from the giant bird wings spread out overhead.
When antiair missiles were vertically launched from the deck, she let them follow her for
a bit before she spiraled around one of the five legs until they had all crashed into that
“wall”.

The antiair laser units could shoot down cruise or ballistic missiles with greater than
99.9% accuracy, but not even they could catch the witch goddess flitting this way and that
in the sky.

She slipped through the deadly net pouring down like rain.

“I had heard laser weapons aren’t visible, so are those weird green lines the equivalent of
tracer rounds?”

(The giant bird is made up of 10 ships and each one is loaded with 30 or 40 planes. That
means they could carry nearly 400 in all. And since I’ve taken out- hm? How many was
it?)

Is Aerobatics indexable?

Cloth creation. She likely created the lollipop too

"At least" needs to be added prior to the planet level rating, as the justification is scaling off of Magic Gods who have the same wording.

Her gallery having two images of her getting incapped twice is weird lol. I'd replace 'em with the one with her double, but that's w/e.

Get the quotes and put them in imgur links and I'll add 'em.

 

[Churronzon]

Cloth manipulation (Transcendents can create clothing)
higher combat and flight speed via Triple Reload (Gets faster the more good deeds she performs) [or w/e other justification you wanna use]

Aerobatics (Can perform unorthodox loop-the-loops and evade a downpour of artillery fire, missiles, and tracer lights from antiair laser units that have greater than 99.9% accuracy)
Found someone else with aerobatics so it should work?

We don't need the lollipop one actually xd

 

[XDragnoir]

Touma vs The Presence.

Who wins? https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Kamijou_Touma Touma in the base form. VS https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/The_Presence The Presence (DC Comics. The Presence is in its crisis cosmology). Equalized speed. Touma has prior knowledge of the Presence. Fight location: Tournament of...

vsbattles.com

Hey guys. Is there any way you can access this crt to analyze this battle?

That's everything minus a battle, that's one of the worst stomps I've seen this entire year.

higher combat/flight speed with triple reload via these two quotes

Both quotes only seem to talk about power, the second doesn't really say Triple Reload was raising her speed.

 

[Churronzon]

So her movements appear as a blur in base or is it via another method than Triple Reload? If in base, what rating is that vague description

 

[XDragnoir]

So her movements appear as a blur in base or is it via another method than Triple Reload?

Idk, did she ever mention a spell that raised her speed?

If in base, what rating is that vague description

Which vague description? I am not sure what you're talking about.

 

[Churronzon]

Idk, did she ever mention a spell that raised her speed?

Only the second quote that she has nothing to fear in dodging stuff since her magic is based on tripling and she started stacking it, followed by a mention that she started dodging gunfire.

Her magic was based on tripling. So the more she brought down, the greater her power.
Once she got the ball rolling, she had nothing to fear. She weaved in an S-shape to dodge

Which vague description? I am not sure what you're talking about.

Blurring into motion. Base Touma isn't ever called as blurring into motion

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

Only the second quote that she has nothing to fear in dodging stuff since her magic is based on tripling and she started stacking it, followed by a mention that she started dodging gunfire.


Blurring into motion. Base Touma isn't ever called as blurring into motion

And missiles. And lasers too. Honestly, after you showed me this quotes, methinks it should be possible for Triple Reload!Aradia's speed to scale to supersonic at the very least since she is very directly evading gunfire and missiles. Maybe even higher since it is confirmed that AC has access to SoL lasers. Might be a pipe dream, tho.

In the past, I think blurring into motion might warrent Subsonic speed but I think that has been since revised since human eyes can be tricked or smth along those lines lest a fan's blades are subsonic if we have subsonic = blurring into motion statements.

Welp. I'mma go cope after I've read the latest chapter of JJK. Gege, when I catch you...

 

[XDragnoir]

Only the second quote that she has nothing to fear in dodging stuff since her magic is based on tripling and she started stacking it, followed by a mention that she started dodging gunfire.

Ehhh

I get that the quote kinda implies it, but we're talking about multipliers here, which I'd say require more straightforward statements.

Blurring into motion. Base Touma isn't ever called as blurring into motion

You're talking about base Aradia, right? Iirc she could save Touma from one of CRC's attacks, so I doubt we will really need that blurring statement for anything.

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

Welp, I have recovered from my JJK coping. I want to say that I did tidy up Aradia's sandbox profile since I plan to upload it by next Monday or the day after that. So if you've an issues with Aradia's profile, you folks should speak up now so we can resolve 'em here before we have to go through CRTs to fix it after I officially upload it.

 

[Churronzon]

Why is her range planetary with Triple Reload

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

Why is her range planetary with Triple Reload

Cuz Aradia can absorb all of the carbon dioxide out of the earth’s atmosphere with Triple Reload to do some type of wind attack.

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

Aradia (To Aru)

Aradia (アラディア) is a Transcendent of the Bridge Builders Cabal, that was introduced in Souyaku Toaru Majutsu no Index Volume 4, and following a brief role as an antagonist in Souyaku Toaru Majutsu no Index Volume 6, she has since become a heroine as of Souyaku Toaru Majutsu no Index Volume 7 and...

vsbattles.fandom.com

Done. Better late than never, I suppose.

 

[Churronzon]

Do we got ideas on what GT Aleister's AP and dura is without Spiritual Tripping and Blasting Rod? And don't say High 1-C with Flaming_Sword

---

Does anyone know why Fiamma's miracles are split between his keys?
Why does he have necromancy which gets upgraded to resurrection?

Being created by something abstract doesn't make a character automatically abstract, they have to be abstract themselves, KNT isn't.

I wanna meet the guy who coined KnT as an emanation. That's abstract by definition, lol

What was the "abstract something" you were referring to that was creating KnT?

Either way, I'd probably similarly look to grant the amalgamation of AIM diffusion fields that develops a triangular prism abstract existence in a Kazakiri CRT.
IIRC she's missing semi-omnipresence, type 8 immortality, low-godly regen (non-combat applicable), NPI, and lightning stuff
Weird that the guy copying her factory model got it but not her

 

[XDragnoir]

Do we got ideas on what GT Aleister's AP and dura is without Spiritual Tripping and Blasting Rod? And don't say High 1-C with Flaming_Sword

5B, most likely

Aleister (amped by Coronzon), Kingsford and CRC are all pretty much stated to be stronger than Anna Sprengel, who is 5B.

---

Does anyone know why Fiamma's miracles are split between his keys?
Why does he have necromancy which gets upgraded to resurrection?

Because his first key has the miracles related to the right hand, the 2nd has all Christian Miracles.

Not sure which miracle gave him Necromancy, but I think Resurrection comes from Jesus resurrecting.

I wanna meet the guy who coined KnT as an emanation. That's abstract by definition, lol

Ehhh, no? He is literally a physical being, there's nothing abstract about him at all and being an "emanation" isn't abstract by definition, at all.

What was the "abstract something" you were referring to that was creating KnT?

Touma's wishes and memories.

Either way, I'd probably similarly look to grant the amalgamation of AIM diffusion fields that develops a triangular prism abstract existence in a Kazakiri CRT.

Kazakiri also isn't abstract... she is made of AIM as you just pointed out.

 

[Churronzon]

Because his first key has the miracles related to the right hand, the 2nd has all Christian Miracles.

Not sure which miracle gave him Necromancy, but I think Resurrection comes from Jesus resurrecting.

They describe literally the same miracles. OT16 talks of cutting down Lucifer and OT20 talks about cutting down the leader of the fallen angels. OT16, OT20, and OT22 always talked about using every Christian miracle. Gather scans to back up your statements please

These are all the scans I could find surrounding them. Do you know of any others? If not, then reviving the dead is actually only stated in OT16. There'd be no reason for the miracles to be split.

Ehhh, no? He is literally a physical being

He takes on multiple physical forms but that doesn't disqualify type 2. Also he's not physical when he's speaking in Touma's mind.

Kazakiri also isn't abstract... she is made of AIM as you just pointed out.

What do you think AIM is

 

[Churronzon]

being an "emanation" isn't abstract by definition, at all.

My bad, I only looked at this without looking at the definition from other dictionaries.

 

[Churronzon]

Doesn't help that the novels state Fiamma needs Index for the miracles while the manga states he needs Imagine Breaker

Is whoever in charge of the manga as confused as I am

 

[Aseka]

Because his first key has the miracles related to the right hand, the 2nd has all Christian Miracles.

Not sure which miracle gave him Necromancy, but I think Resurrection comes from Jesus resurrecting

Since we talk about this, could we scale Fiamma to use all magic that is Christian-based? Pretty much LPSAD can create all christian miracles. And as we know that magic in Toaru is based on legends.

 

[Churronzon]

That's been tried and no I don't agree with it either

 

[XDragnoir]

They describe literally the same miracles. OT16 talks of cutting down Lucifer and OT20 talks about cutting down the leader of the fallen angels. OT16, OT20, and OT22 always talked about using every Christian miracle. Gather scans to back up your statements please

These are all the scans I could find surrounding them. Do you know of any others? If not, then reviving the dead is actually only stated in OT16. There'd be no reason for the miracles to be split.

From what I can remember, his LPSaD key is the only one with the very specific statement of "can recreate any legend in Christianity", so similar to what we're doing now with Alice, we give him anything that was brought up about Christianity.

But well, it may as well just be outdated, after we're done with some of our CRTs you can make one for this.

He takes on multiple physical forms but that doesn't disqualify type 2. Also he's not physical when he's speaking in Touma's mind.

I am not sure if existing inside someone's mind is enough for abstract existence (because, well, minds aren't abstract to begin with), so it would be good to make a Q&A thread first before any CRT.

What do you think AIM is

AIM is a type of energy, no? It's not abstract at all unless I am missing something.