To The Slammer… for what, the 3rd time now? (Phoenix Wright vs. Puss in Boots) (4-8-0, GRACE!)

[Lonkitt]

Although Puss has demonstrated the skill to adapt quickly, Phoenix doesn't need much time to obtain evidence and enter turnabout mode if he's not under relentless pressure.

This is ignoring the fact that he will be under relentless pressure....? Why would Puss not keep pressing him in battle?

 

[James_Plays_4_Games]

This is ignoring the fact that he will be under relentless pressure....? Why would Puss not keep pressing him in battle?

Puss would indeed apply pressure, but I was referring to how Phoenix wouldn't be under the same kind of pressure that Ultimate Marvel vs. Capcom 3 players put him under that makes him not over powered, since players know before the fight even begins that they should prevent Phoenix from trying to obtain evidence. Phoenix's strategy would be new to Puss.

Again, I think you’re highly exaggerating Phoenix’s moveset

How is simply lifting up a piece of paper, something everybody who has hand is capable of doing, proof that Wright’s mindset as a lawyer is more applicable in combat than Puss’ actual mastery of combat? Im honestly not even sure where to start in explaining how wrong why you’re saying is

Yeah, it’s an attack in the game. But it’s range is terrible and it’s incredibly easy to counter. Puss won’t see it as an attack? Great, because he doesn’t need to. If he sees Phoenix lift up a paper, he’ll perceive that more as his opponent being distracted and Puss can just hit low

I mean really, just realistically think about it. Do you think Puss, while rushing his opponent, his just suddenly going to be hit by a move like lifting a piece of paper, given the incredibly short range on that attack, Puss’ skills as a fighter, and his incredibly small height?

It’s really strange to me how you’re essentially saying “because this normal dude is lifting up a piece of paper, he’s actually got a much greater advantage than the skilled, experienced, and legitimate fighter”

I’m sorry, none of your arguments are hitting the target

Another thing I should add: you’re falsely applying Wright’s genius intelligence to how he fights. His genius intelligence does not affect how well he fights, even when treating matches like legal cases. Furthermore, you don’t have to be a genius to lift paper, throw paper, walk towards somebody while reading paper, or slip and fall on your ass

Never mind, if I were to answer any of that, it would merely be more clarifications about what I truly mean, because we're back to lacking mutual understanding. This discussion is going nowhere, and I'm no longer interested.

 

[Lonkitt]

Never mind, if I were to answer any of that, it would merely be more clarifications about what I truly mean, because we're back to lacking mutual understanding. This discussion is going nowhere, and I'm no longer interested.

I know exactly what you mean and it does not apply to Phoenix's combat in the way you think whatsoever. Regardless, I accept your concession

Puss would indeed apply pressure, but I was referring to how Phoenix wouldn't be under the same kind of pressure that Ultimate Marvel vs. Capcom 3 players put him under that makes him not over powered, since players know before the fight even begins that they should prevent Phoenix from trying to obtain evidence. Phoenix's strategy would be new to Puss.

While there are defensive tools given to Phoenix's moveset in the game for the purpose of collecting evidence, we cannot use actual players of UMvC3 as a component here. If we could, we could say Ruby Heart has reality warping powers via a glitch that softlocks the game in MvC2

 

[James_Plays_4_Games]

I know exactly what you mean and it does not apply to Phoenix's combat in the way you think whatsoever. Regardless, I accept your concession

I honestly mean that I feel like over half of my time in this thread has been spent trying to address people's accidental strawman fallacies, which is tiring, so I'm giving up because I don't want to waste my energy discussing something that's inconsequential anyway.

 

[Lonkitt]

There's no strawmen here, James. Being a genius lawyer just doesn't make you a genius fighter. I made it pretty clear on his profile that his greatest intelligence feats got nothing to do with fighting

 

[James_Plays_4_Games]

There's no strawmen here, James. Being a genius lawyer just doesn't make you a genius fighter. I made it pretty clear on his profile that his greatest intelligence feats got nothing to do with fighting

I already know.

 

[Lonkitt]

Great. Then please don't address the opposing side as strawmen

 

[James_Plays_4_Games]

Great. Then please don't address the opposing side as strawmen

According to the Fallacies page, "This is when one person corrupts an opponent's argument into something different, a "straw man" that they set up just to knock it down.". I already know and agree with the information that you were telling me because it doesn't conflict with what I actually believe and meant to tell. Think of how I feel, having written a trivial point which I merely described using the words "could arguably", among other points, then it stimulated a much bigger disproportionate discussion where I'm portrayed as not knowing basic things like that combat skill isn't the same as other forms of intelligence, as if I don't know common sense like that a regular person can lift a regular piece of paper, and, just for elaborating on my logic, I get falsely accused of attributing too much importance to something that I only claimed might do one thing, not that it would be independently sufficient overall. This doesn't describe a quality discussion.

 

[Lonkitt]

According to the Fallacies page, "This is when one person corrupts an opponent's argument into something different, a "straw man" that they set up just to knock it down.". I already know and agree with the information that you were telling me because it doesn't conflict with what I actually believe and meant to tell. Think of how I feel, having written a trivial point which I merely described using the words "could arguably", among other points, then it stimulated a much bigger disproportionate discussion where I'm portrayed as not knowing basic things like that combat skill isn't the same as other forms of intelligence, as if I don't know common sense like that a regular person can lift a regular piece of paper, and, just for elaborating on my logic, I get falsely accused of attributing too much importance to something that I only claimed might do one thing, not that it would be independently sufficient overall. This doesn't describe a quality discussion.

Nobody was falsely accusing you of anything James. Nobody accused you of not knowing basic VS battles concepts either. Nobody was corrupting your argument to make it something easy to knock. That is your own interpretation

Let it go and move on. You’ve already conceded

 

[The_man_with_the_Midas_touch]

anyway

Without any prior knowledge, I honestly think it's more likely for Puss to simply run him through with his superior skill + AP + using a piercing weapon, than for Wright to throw together a case on the spot to get Puss to stand down. Puss is perfectly willing to talk to an opponent mid-fight in character, so it's not like Wright wouldn't have any chance to use his SI, but him doing so while Puss is constantly dancing around him and cutting him to ribbons just seems a bit iffy.

Going with Puss, FRA tbh.

 

[King_Dom470]

Also puss FRA

 

[Lonkitt]

Puss FRA

 

[Marvel_Champion_07]

Puss FRA

 

[Armorchompy]

puss fra

 

[Serlock_Holmes]

I was here first with the win!

 

[LeoEpicGamer8910]

but him doing so while Puss is constantly dancing around him and cutting him to ribbons just seems a bit iffy.

Nick literally can deal with that and has. This is MvC Nick, not canon Nick, and it's not like he can't fight back. Some of his attacks should be able to outrange Puss.

 

[Lonkitt]

Nick literally can deal with that and has. This is MvC Nick, not canon Nick, and it's not like he can't fight back. Some of his attacks should be able to outrange Puss.

He does have a range advantage over Puss, but Puss is far more skilled and Phoenix has never fought anyone as skilled as Puss. Hell, he’s never fought anyone in MvC

 

[ThanatosX]

After reading the arguments, I will vote for Puss, mainly for his higher skills and overall better mobility.

 

[HonestlyBored24]

GRACE!

 

[The_man_with_the_Midas_touch]

Nick literally can deal with that and has. This is MvC Nick, not canon Nick, and it's not like he can't fight back. Some of his attacks should be able to outrange Puss.

Having a range advantage against Puss doesn’t mean much. Not only is he both agile enough to weave through projectiles, and a naturally small target, but he’s already avoided and deflected attacks from ranged characters more skilled than anything Wright has shown in MvC canon.

Puss having a massive skill advantage isn’t really debatable here lol. He can fight back, sure, but most of his bumbling, accidental attacks aren’t going to do much against someone who regularly outskills actual experienced fighters.

Like realistically Puss should have Wright on the ground with a sword pointed at his neck within the first few moments, once he closes the gap.

 

[James_Plays_4_Games]

Nobody was falsely accusing you of anything James. Nobody accused you of not knowing basic VS battles concepts either. Nobody was corrupting your argument to make it something easy to knock. That is your own interpretation

Let it go and move on. You’ve already conceded

This is a blatant attempt at gaslighting! Look at this sentence that you previously wrote:

It’s really strange to me how you’re essentially saying “because this normal dude is lifting up a piece of paper, he’s actually got a much greater advantage than the skilled, experienced, and legitimate fighter”

This quote is you clearly claiming that I think lifting a regular piece of paper is a highly skilled feat of intelligence, yet now you're claiming that "nobody accused [me] of not knowing basic VS battles concepts". You're being disingenuous.

 

[James_Plays_4_Games]

It's also not true that I conceded; I was tired of having my ideas be misrepresented, so I gave up, which is different than conceding. However, I refuse to let the disrespect towards the integrity of the discussion that I just witnessed slide. I regained my willingness to write here.

Y'know how it's agreed on that Phoenix wouldn't just stand still due to lacking combat skill, and that he would use his unconventional lawyer methods of defending himself in a battle? Basically, all I was writing was that it's possible that, while doing so, Phoenix may do something unexpected and/or clever that would catch Puss off guard, and in addition, Phoenix's mindset can be useful, since him treating a battle as something else that he's very skilled at is a superior mindset to if he were to treat the battle as unwinnable and violent. I had never claimed that any of these are independent win conditions for Phoenix, just that these are details about him that could maybe lead to him gaining the upper hand. I'm pretty sure that we all already know this information. I was literally just attributing common knowledge to my analysis of the match-up, not presenting a battleboarding blunder.

It's difficult to imagine someone believing that the full scope of Phoenix's genius intelligence can apply to any given battle. For example, surely Phoenix threatening Iron Man with a lawsuit isn't combat applicable, since that would involve a lot of strategic planning and slow paperwork, which can't be done in a random fight. However, do you honestly expect me to believe that absolutely zero creativity that Phoenix has during actual investigations and trials translates to battles, which he successfully participates in by treating them as investigations and trials? I think that some of his creativity translates, and all I was describing is that this creativity could help him do something that Puss wouldn't expect. When referring to Phoenix's intelligence as genius, nothing that I wrote implied that I think Phoenix is some sort of battle-meister who'd easily defeat Puss like simply solving another case. Phoenix being a genius lawyer and treating battles like legality cases obviously doesn't change the fact that Puss' expert acrobatics would give him trouble. I described Phoenix's law skills as genius only because I felt that it was important to mention that he has useful cognitive capability which could allow him to quickly think of something creative, not that he could participate in a fight at the same level as his peak during actual investigations and trials.

(The reasoning that I provided a long while ago for why I thought that Phoenix would win the battle didn't end at the skill factor. The idea that I think he'd skill-stomp Puss is completely fabricated.)

 

[The_man_with_the_Midas_touch]

Wright when Puss breaks his evidence or whatever (he can’t lawyer him to death anymore)

 

[James_Plays_4_Games]

Wright when Puss breaks his evidence or whatever (he can’t lawyer him to death anymore)

That's a fun way to imagine it.

I have actually decided to vote for Puss winning this match-up, since his awareness and precision are too good for Phoenix's advantages to counter them. I didn't get the opportunity to tell this earlier because people were too obsessed with defaming one detail of what I was writing, but "better late than never".

It was me all along who gave light to Puss' skills on his profile on the VS Battles Wiki, but I hadn't done so using a content revision thread, so I was stuck with using what was already stated and implied on his profile. I evidently already understand how talented Puss is, which is why I wrote a while ago that he would put up a good fight against Phoenix. I even think that the VS Battles Wiki currently underestimates the skill that Puss truly has, and this discussion gave me the motivation to make a content revision thread to get Puss' information upgraded. Come help me get it approved if you want to.

 

[Lonkitt]

This is a blatant attempt at gaslighting! Look at this sentence that you previously wrote:

??????

James I promise you I"m not gaslighting you. At worst, this is a miscommunication. I'm not a social manipulator. I apologize regardless since I never intended anything like this

This quote is you clearly claiming that I think lifting a regular piece of paper is a highly skilled feat of intelligence, yet now you're claiming that "nobody accused [me] of not knowing basic VS battles concepts". You're being disingenuous.

I was paraphrasing, James. I wasn't making it out as if I was quoting you word for word

It's also not true that I conceded; I was tired of having my ideas be misrepresented, so I gave up, which is different than conceding. However, I refuse to let the disrespect towards the integrity of the discussion that I just witnessed slide. I regained my willingness to write here

I meant no disrespect towards you. I was simply explaining the misunderstandings you had made about Phoenix Wright's combative capabilities

I do genuinely understand what you're trying to say regarding your argument, but I'm not repeating all of my rebuttals because I already did that earlier into the thread. I will reply to one of the points you've recently made though

It's difficult to imagine someone believing that the full scope of Phoenix's genius intelligence can apply to any given battle. For example, surely Phoenix threatening Iron Man with a lawsuit isn't combat applicable, since that would involve a lot of strategic planning and slow paperwork, which can't be done in a random fight. However, do you honestly expect me to believe that absolutely zero creativity that Phoenix has during actual investigations and trials translates to battles, which he successfully participates in by treating them as investigations and trials? I think that some of his creativity translates, and all I was describing is that this creativity could help him do something that Puss wouldn't expect

I get what you're saying about the scope of one's thoughts regarding creative potential. But there's a few problems:

A) Phoenix Wright's character presented in game along with the quotes in UMvC3 make no suggestions that he's capable of conceiving battle strategies that would be significantly creative enough to throw off somebody like Puss in Boots

B) At the risk of sounding like a broken record, being a genius in one category doesn't necessarily mean you have the potential for equal intellectual prowess in other areas. In Wright's case, this is where the point above is relevant, because if he had examples of showing especially creative and clever problem solving capabilities in battle scenarios, then it could be argued he has the creative potential to throw off Puss. But since we're lacking that, we can't really argue his genius lawyering translate to combat intellect. Furthermore, his moveset proves to us that a lot of his means of fighting back are a mixture of accidentally attacking others and pretty basic, non-professional means of defence

 

[James_Plays_4_Games]

??????

James I promise you I"m not gaslighting you. At worst, this is a miscommunication. I'm not a social manipulator. I apologize regardless since I never intended anything like this



I was paraphrasing, James. I wasn't making it out as if I was quoting you word for word



I meant no disrespect towards you. I was simply explaining the misunderstandings you had made about Phoenix Wright's combative capabilities

Okay, I believe you; sometimes miscommunication and social manipulation can appear similar on the surface, but as long as your intention was fine, I won't continue to be skeptical just because of this one occurrence.

I do genuinely understand what you're trying to say regarding your argument, but I'm not repeating all of my rebuttals because I already did that earlier into the thread. I will reply to one of the points you've recently made though


I get what you're saying about the scope of one's thoughts regarding creative potential. But there's a few problems:

A) Phoenix Wright's character presented in game along with the quotes in UMvC3 make no suggestions that he's capable of conceiving battle strategies that would be significantly creative enough to throw off somebody like Puss in Boots

B) At the risk of sounding like a broken record, being a genius in one category doesn't necessarily mean you have the potential for equal intellectual prowess in other areas. In Wright's case, this is where the point above is relevant, because if he had examples of showing especially creative and clever problem solving capabilities in battle scenarios, then it could be argued he has the creative potential to throw off Puss. But since we're lacking that, we can't really argue his genius lawyering translate to combat intellect. Furthermore, his moveset proves to us that a lot of his means of fighting back are a mixture of accidentally attacking others and pretty basic, non-professional means of defence

These new points are better. I don't think that your points that came before these ones addressed my arguments well, but regardless, I voted for Puss winning, because I think that what I believe to be Phoenix's advantages aren't enough to counter Puss' direct combat skill. So, we've reached agreement now. I'm glad.