To The Slammer… for what, the 3rd time now? (Phoenix Wright vs. Puss in Boots) (4-8-0, GRACE!)

[Armorchompy]

You're free to disagree, if you can't even try to counter my arguments that means little though.

 

[JustANormalLemon]

You're free to disagree, if you can't even try to counter my arguments that means little though.

What can I say other then "Your arguments aren't good and don't disprove anything from phoenix SI level"?

 

[Armorchompy]

Ah yes, "your arguments aren't good", extremely poignant rhetoric.

 

[JustANormalLemon]

Ah yes, "your arguments aren't good", extremely poignant rhetoric.

We really just have "Characters will not give up of their own accord. [...] This doesn't prevent a character being made to give up, because the other character manipulates them via things like, for example, mind control, fear inducement, psychological tricks or superhuman charisma."

So I guess forcing the other person to give up is fine, but I think it's meant to be getting them to surrender. Otherwise you could put a 10-B guy against Spider-Man, give them previous knowledge and watch them get a win as they immediately begin to beg for mercy, which Peter will definitely give them.

I think convincing someone to straight up surrender themselves to the authorities with Galactus, that would definitely count, but I don't think he's doing that here, Galactus is a lawful evil kinda guy so getting him to seek redemption might lead to him confessing his crimes, while Boots takes great pride in his status as an outlaw and would likely never agree to that, especially since he's had pretty bad experiences with the police.

This is more especulation them saying that boots would be convinced to just stop fighting lol

 

[Armorchompy]

That is literally not even speculation, that's me saying that "talk other guy into not killing you" isn't a wincon, you need to actively get them to surrender or something. And no, I think I gave a pretty good reasoning as to why, even if we knew how Wright convinced Galactus, it wouldn't apply to Boots. You are free to explain why you disagree, though, as long as it's more elaborate than "this is wrong lol"

 

[James_Plays_4_Games]

Ah yes, "your arguments aren't good", extremely poignant rhetoric.

I'll provide different information that you would prefer. In combat, Phoenix doesn't really fight the opponents in the conventional sense. He switches between investigation mode and trial mode while doing various things such as writing, presenting papers, sneezing, reacting to Maya who also trips on the opponent, and producing speech bubbles. He treats a battle more like it's a case than an actual fight, while he collects evidence to enter turnabout mode, which upgrades his moveset because he can convict the opponent of crimes. Phoenix doesn't physically scale to the other playable characters, but he's still able to be in combat perfectly fine, which I interpret as being because pretty much all his moves are social based rather than actual damage, with the HP of his opponents going down just being game mechanic equalization. So, I think he can stand up to Puss, because speech bubbles outrange a sword, and Pheonix can keep up with skilled fighters using his methods without even treating the battle like a battle.

 

[JustANormalLemon]

"talk other guy into not killing you" isn't a wincon

the problem here is that... It is, look at phoenix matches or other characters that mainly use SI in battles, their wincondition is always "convince the other to stop fighting or leave the fight", If You have a problem with that... You have quite some work to do

also I'm not really wanting to keep my self argumenting on this thread

And no, I think I gave a pretty good reasoning as to why, even if we knew how Wright convinced Galactus, it wouldn't apply to Boots. You are free to explain why you disagree, though, as long as it's more elaborate than "this is wrong lol"

The thing is that, we don't know how he convinced galactus and anything we say will be especulation on how he did It and really can't see this don't appling to puss, I'm fine agreeing to disagree, I don't really want to change your mind

 

[Armorchompy]

the problem here is that... It is, look at phoenix matches or other characters that mainly use SI in battles, their wincondition is always "convince the other to stop fighting or leave the fight", If You have a problem with that... You have quite some work to do

Yes, those are bad too, and I do have a problem with them but by absolutely no means does that force me to go and try and get them removed for my arguments to make sense too.

If you really do want me to make a staff revision to make requirements in the regard of Social Influencing wins stricter, I might do that some day.

also I'm not really wanting to keep my self argumenting on this threadThe thing is that, we don't know how he convinced galactus and anything we say will be especulation on how he did It and really can't see this don't appling to puss, I'm fine agreeing to disagree, I don't really want to change your mind

that's fine but, i'm still not seeing the SI votes as legitimate

I'll provide different information that you would prefer. In combat, Phoenix doesn't really fight the opponents in the conventional sense. He switches between investigation mode and trial mode while doing various things such as writing, presenting papers, sneezing, reacting to Maya who also trips on the opponent, and producing speech bubbles. He treats a battle more like it's a case than an actual fight, while he collects evidence to enter turnabout mode, which upgrades his moveset because he can convict the opponent of crimes. Phoenix doesn't physically scale to the other playable characters, but he's still able to be in combat perfectly fine, which I interpret as being because pretty much all his moves are social based rather than actual damage, with the HP of his opponents going down just being game mechanic equalization. So, I think he can stand up to Puss, because speech bubbles outrange a sword, and Pheonix can keep up with skilled fighters using his methods without even treating the battle like a battle.

Is that really how it's treated? It seems like a decent amount of his moves couldn't inflict any other kind of damage but physical, so the speech bubbles feel like some kind of sound manipulation to me.

 

[James_Plays_4_Games]

Is that really how it's treated? It seems like a decent amount of his moves couldn't inflict any other kind of damage but physical, so the speech bubbles feel like some kind of sound manipulation to me.

I think that if it weren't treated like that, then Phoenix's power would be dwarf star level, scaling to the other characters. However, it's possible that the people who added him to the VS Battles Wiki simply didn't scale him to the other characters while not having in mind the idea that his attacks are social based. That doesn't make sense to me, since if that were true, then Phoenix would get one-shot by any of the other playable characters with no way of defending himself, which clearly never happens. In any case, sound manipulation isn't listed on Phoenix's profile, and Puss' power is in the same tier as his, so it doesn't seem like this oddity will ruin this match-up right now.

 

[Greatsage13th]

Right FRA

 

[Armorchompy]

Right FRA

FOR WHAT REASONS? HAVE ANY OF YOU ACTUALLY READ THE THREAD?

 

[Armorchompy]

I think that if it weren't treated like that, then Phoenix's power would be dwarf star level, scaling to the other characters. However, it's possible that the people who added him to the VS Battles Wiki simply didn't scale him to the other characters while not having in mind the idea that his attacks are social based. That doesn't make sense to me, since if that were true, then Phoenix would get one-shot by any of the other playable characters with no way of defending himself, which clearly never happens. In any case, sound manipulation isn't listed on Phoenix's profile, and Puss' power is in the same tier as his, so it doesn't seem like this oddity will ruin this match-up right now.

There are several other characters in MvC that don't scale to High 5-A and they use pure power. It's just gameplay mechanics.

 

[James_Plays_4_Games]

There are several other characters in MvC that don't scale to High 5-A and they use pure power. It's just gameplay mechanics.

I must've missed them if that's true. Either way, with the nature of Phoenix's attacks not focusing on conventional combat, I believe that his attacks are mostly social based. To be safe, I have yet to vote in this thread, since I'm not sure whether or not the VS Battles Wiki has implemented the idea that I'm telling into Phoenix's profile.

 

[Serlock_Holmes]

If Puss lands a grip it's over... Puss for me

 

[James_Plays_4_Games]

I'll analyze this match-up with the idea that Phoenix's attacks are physical.

Phoenix can use ranged attacks throwing damaging papers and shooting what appears to be energy out of evidence that he collects. On top of this, Phoenix can do combos off of Maya's actions, which I presume wouldn't count as outside help since she's part of his regular moveset. Even if Phoenix's attacks aren't entirely social based, he still treats battles as if they're legal cases, and since he's considered as a genius lawyer, he could arguably out-skill Puss somehow. I think Puss would put up a good fight, using his skills to slip around what Phoenix would be doing, but I think that Phoenix would end up winning, especially if he enters turnabout mode.

Edit after the thread concluded: Me using the word "out-skill" in the previous paragraph was accidentally misleading and can easily be interpreted as inaccurate to not just what I intended to convey, but inaccurate to Phoenix's profile as well, even though I was claiming otherwise in subsequent messages.

 

[Armorchompy]

Phoenix can use ranged attacks throwing damaging papers and shooting what appears to be energy out of evidence that he collects. On top of this, Phoenix can do combos off of Maya's actions, which I presume wouldn't count as outside help since she's part of his regular moveset.

The energy requires presenting Good Evidence to use, it's not something he can spam. As for the latter, you're right there

Even if Phoenix's attacks aren't entirely social based, he still treats battles as if they're legal cases, and since he's considered as a genius lawyer, he could arguably out-skill Puss somehow.

Vs battles users will literally say this shit and expect you go with it huh

Absolutely not, entering a fight under the illusion that you're in a trial instead doesn't make you any better at not getting beat up, half of his attacks are accidental and even the profile says he sucks ass at fighting, Puss is definitely going to outmaneuver him and quickly wear him down with his sword.

 

[Serlock_Holmes]

The energy requires presenting Good Evidence to use, it's not something he can spam. As for the latter, you're right there

Vs battles users will literally say this shit and expect you go with it huh

Absolutely not, entering a fight under the illusion that you're in a trial instead doesn't make you any better at not getting beat up, half of his attacks are accidental and even the profile says he sucks ass at fighting, Puss is definitely going to outmaneuver him and quickly wear him down with his sword.

Can't puss just choke him?

 

[Armorchompy]

It's not really something he does, iirc, he's a swashbuckling fencer type dude so he mostly just plays evasive and pokes at people, he does have like, some flying pounces iirc but he doesn't really put people in holds

 

[Serlock_Holmes]

It's not really something he does, iirc, he's a swashbuckling fencer type dude so he mostly just plays evasive and pokes at people, he does have like, some flying pounces iirc but he doesn't really put people in holds

It's not like he never does it. He has used it against the bull, because it was effective. The reason he doesn't use it as much as his sword is because there aren't many cases that it would be more useful, though I guess even with his sword he easily wins this as Phoenix isn't exactly a close quarters combat master. Or any combat master.

 

[James_Plays_4_Games]

The energy requires presenting Good Evidence to use, it's not something he can spam. As for the latter, you're right there

I didn't claim that Phoenix would be spamming the moves.

Vs battles users will literally say this shit and expect you go with it huh

Absolutely not, entering a fight under the illusion that you're in a trial instead doesn't make you any better at not getting beat up, half of his attacks are accidental and even the profile says he sucks ass at fighting, Puss is definitely going to outmaneuver him and quickly wear him down with his sword.

You'd be correct if Phoenix doesn't be under the illusion that he's in a trial precisely for the purpose of preventing himself from getting beat up. He indeed lacks combat skill, and the Power Grid even ranks all his stats except for "Intelligence" as underwhelming, so to counter this weakness in a setting centered around combat, Phoenix implements his genius lawyer skills into combat. I didn't present a battleboarding blunder, I presented a simple deduction and a realization of the obvious gimmick of the character. Keep in mind that "out-skill" doesn't need to be in terms of pure combat skill.

 

[Armorchompy]

You'd be correct if Phoenix doesn't be under the illusion that he's in a trial precisely for the purpose of preventing himself from getting beat up. He indeed lacks combat skill, and the Power Grid even ranks all his stats except for "Intelligence" as underwhelming, so to counter this weakness in a setting centered around combat, Phoenix implements his genius lawyer skills into combat.

And there is absolutely no reason to assume this actually works. In fact, it's an assumption to even say this is something he's purposefully doing. Not that it matters because they don't teach martial arts at lawyer school.

I didn't present a battleboarding blunder, I presented a simple deduction and a realization of the obvious gimmick of the character. Keep in mind that "out-skill" doesn't need to be in terms of pure combat skill.

It does, when it's a fight. You can't debate someone into unconsciousness while they're trying to stab you.

 

[James_Plays_4_Games]

And there is absolutely no reason to assume this actually works. In fact, it's an assumption to even say this is something he's purposefully doing. Not that it matters because they don't teach martial arts at lawyer school.

It does, when it's a fight. You can't debate someone into unconsciousness while they're trying to stab you.

You had previously demonstrated the belief that Phoenix's attacks aren't social based, yet now, when the alternative interpretation that Phoenix's moves do physical damage is presented, your counterargument implies that you think that his moves are entirely social based, with the arguments including that "they don't teach martial arts at lawyer school" and that Phoenix "can't debate someone into unconsciousness while they're trying to stab [him]", even though his "debate" is being considered as actual physical attacks right now. Whether you like it or not, Phoenix doing mundane actions like writing in his notepad have hitboxes, which the VS Battles Wiki either regards as causing physical small building level damage to opponents, or regards as being able to socially overwhelm the opponent despite their physically violent intentions. The idea that I'm presenting goes along with the facts that...

• The only reason why Phoenix's moves exist and why he's a playable character in Ultimate Marvel vs. Capcom 3 is because, using his unconventional methods of dealing with opponents, he is capable of properly being implemented into the fighting game where he's required to fight opponents.
• Phoenix's profile on the VS Battles Wiki uses information from his winning screen, indicating that the VS Battles Wiki accepts the fact that Phoenix can win fights in the game, during which he uses his unconventional methods of dealing with opponents that are conventionally fighting him.
• Even though the moves are "accidental", it's in character for him to use them in combat, otherwise it would be impossible for him to win even against another one of himself. Phoenix can be seen continuously using his "accidental" moves effectively during his official video that I linked earlier. What isn't "accidental" is his mindset as a lawyer, which is what he defaults to in combat, making his "accidental" attacks situationally highly likely to occur during a battle. Also, regardless of his methods of dealing with opponents, Phoenix acknowledges that he participates in battles.

I wrote that Phoenix may "out-skill" Puss because, during combat, Phoenix successfully uses genius non-combat skills to his advantage which can evidently even lead to him winning fights. You're asserting that a character must use combat skills in particular to do better in combat than an opponent, as if special examples where that's not true are inconceivable. I use the word "unconventional" to describe Phoenix's methods of engaging in combat for a good reason.

In fact, the logic that I'm presenting even applies to real life to a less extreme extent. I've heard that if an autistic person is struggling to focus on doing a task that isn't of their preference, an efficient strategy for them is to somehow implement a special interest of theirs into the task that they're doing, so that their skill with and love of that subject can boost their performance with the task. Likewise, Phoenix lacks combat skills, so he applies his genius lawyer skills in combat to do significantly better than he would otherwise do, which is achievable for him despite legality cases being far different than physical combat, because of hax that he has such as supernatural luck, toon force and subjective reality.

Phoenix's speech bubbles physically interact with the opponent against their will (in the interpretation that the moves aren't social based), and are not merely "debate" that Puss could simply ignore and stab Phoenix through. This is information that's on Phoenix's profile on the VS Battles Wiki, and is demonstrable in a regular match of Ultimate Marvel vs. Capcom 3. If you disagree with this and if you want something to be done about it, then you'd need make revisions based on a content revision thread.

 

[Lonkitt]

You'd be correct if Phoenix doesn't be under the illusion that he's in a trial precisely for the purpose of preventing himself from getting beat up. He indeed lacks combat skill, and the Power Grid even ranks all his stats except for "Intelligence" as underwhelming, so to counter this weakness in a setting centered around combat, Phoenix implements his genius lawyer skills into combat. I didn't present a battleboarding blunder, I presented a simple deduction and a realization of the obvious gimmick of the character. Keep in mind that "out-skill" doesn't need to be in terms of pure combat skill.

Don’t use the power grid as an example here. We don’t take those into account for MvC pages

 

[James_Plays_4_Games]

Don’t use the power grid as an example here. We don’t take those into account for MvC pages

That's understandable. My point didn't require it anyway.

 

[Lonkitt]

@James_Plays_4_Games As the guy who indexed MvC as well as literally made Phoenix Wright’s page, you’re making a lot of false assumptions. Like A LOT

A) Phoenix Wright has never won a single fight to our knowledge in MvC’s narrative. He SI’d Galactus, but he never fought the guy. Phoenix is literally at the very bottom of the foodchain in MvC, even below Dan. You can’t say he’s ever beaten anyone

B) Phoenix is a genius for his excellent lawyering skills. NOT for his combat prowess. In terms of skill? Puss washes Phoenix with his eyes closed

C) You seem to be ignoring the fact that one of Phoenix’s weaknesses is that he’s a non-combatant. Does this mean he can’t hold his own? Of course not. But is he some secret genius level fighter who uses his accidental attacks to demolish skilled opponents? No. The skill gap between him and everyone in MvC is practically infinite

D) Yes, Phoenix does treat his match as a case, preferring to talk things out or using his evidence against his opponent. But his speech bubbles aren’t some reality warping lawyer magic shit. They’re a matter of Toon Force, that while useful in combat, aren’t nearly as impressive as you make them out to be

E) Not sure what the autistic comment has to do with this debate…


Overall, I think you’re ignoring a lot of what I wrote on Phoenix’s pages as well as the verse standards for MvC as well

 

[Armorchompy]

You had previously demonstrated the belief that Phoenix's attacks aren't social based, yet now, when the alternative interpretation that Phoenix's moves do physical damage is presented, your counterargument implies that you think that his moves are entirely social based, with the arguments including that "they don't teach martial arts at lawyer school" and that Phoenix "can't debate someone into unconsciousness while they're trying to stab [him]", even though his "debate" is being considered as actual physical attacks right now. Whether you like it or not, Phoenix doing mundane actions like writing in his notepad have hitboxes, which the VS Battles Wiki either regards as causing physical small building level damage to opponents, or regards as being able to socially overwhelm the opponent despite their physically violent intentions. The idea that I'm presenting goes along with the facts that...

I'm not denying "he attacks by doing lawyer shit", I'm denying "being really good at lawyering makes him really good at fighting" when the translation of the skillset is clearly not 1 to 1. It's like saying that because a gardener can fight with their gardening scissors their gardening skill translates to being really good at fighting.

• Phoenix's profile on the VS Battles Wiki uses information from his winning screen, indicating that the VS Battles Wiki accepts the fact that Phoenix can win fights in the game, during which he uses his unconventional methods of dealing with opponents that are conventionally fighting him.

Against Tier 6 to Tier 5 characters? That's just game mechanics, the statements aren't implication that he's comparable to them. Unless you're just arguing that he is at all capable of winning fights in general in which case, duh.

• Even though the moves are "accidental", it's in character for him to use them in combat, otherwise it would be impossible for him to win even against another one of himself. Phoenix can be seen continuously using his "accidental" moves effectively during his official video that I linked earlier. What isn't "accidental" is his mindset as a lawyer, which is what he defaults to in combat, making his "accidental" attacks situationally highly likely to occur during a battle. Also, regardless of his methods of dealing with opponents, Phoenix acknowledges that he participates in battles.
  I wrote that Phoenix may "out-skill" Puss because, during combat, Phoenix successfully uses genius non-combat skills to his advantage which can evidently even lead to him winning fights. You're asserting that a character must use combat skills in particular to do better in combat than an opponent, as if special examples where that's not true are inconceivable. I use the word "unconventional" to describe Phoenix's methods of engaging in combat for a good reason.

Welcome to the concept of a joke character. The entire gag with Phoenix is that he's bumbling his way into not getting owned and somehow turning the match around (kinda like in his home games, honestly). It's a great gag, but Bruce Lee he ain't.

In fact, the logic that I'm presenting even applies to real life to a less extreme extent. I've heard that if an autistic person is struggling to focus on doing a task that isn't of their preference, an efficient strategy for them is to somehow implement a special interest of theirs into the task that they're doing, so that their skill with and love of that subject can boost their performance with the task. Likewise, Phoenix lacks combat skills, so he applies his genius lawyer skills in combat to do significantly better than he would otherwise do, which is achievable for him despite legality cases being far different than physical combat, because of hax that he has such as supernatural luck, toon force and subjective reality.

I guarantee to you that thinking about your hyper-fixation will not make you more effective in a fight.

Phoenix's speech bubbles physically interact with the opponent against their will (in the interpretation that the moves aren't social based), and are not merely "debate" that Puss could simply ignore and stab Phoenix through.

You're right, he would have to move lightly to the left or right, and then stab Phoenix.

 

[James_Plays_4_Games]

A) Phoenix Wright has never won a single fight to our knowledge in MvC’s narrative. He SI’d Galactus, but he never fought the guy. Phoenix is literally at the very bottom of the foodchain in MvC, even below Dan. You can’t say he’s ever beaten anyone

In that case, using quotes from his win screen as evidence in his profile is misleading. There should be a note clarifying that it's non-canon, but accurate to his character nonetheless.

B) Phoenix is a genius for his excellent lawyering skills. NOT for his combat prowess. In terms of skill? Puss washes Phoenix with his eyes closed

I never claimed that Phoenix has great combat skills. I wrote that his genius lawyer skills replace his combat skills in combat, since his entire moveset revolves around that and could lead to him winning despite his lack of combat skills.

C) You seem to be ignoring the fact that one of Phoenix’s weaknesses is that he’s a non-combatant. Does this mean he can’t hold his own? Of course not. But is he some secret genius level fighter who uses his accidental attacks to demolish skilled opponents? No. The skill gap between him and everyone in MvC is practically infinite

I didn't ignore it, according to what I wrote in the previous point. I'm not scaling his skill to the other opponents he can face off against in Ultimate Marvel vs. Capcom 3.

D) Yes, Phoenix does treat his match as a case, preferring to talk things out or using his evidence against his opponent. But his speech bubbles aren’t some reality warping lawyer magic shit. They’re a matter of Toon Force, that while useful in combat, aren’t nearly as impressive as you make them out to be

I didn't make them out to be more impressive than you describe. Reality warping abilities aren't required to defeat Puss. Toon force and reality warping are similar anyway.

E) Not sure what the autistic comment has to do with this debate…

It was an analogy, related to the matter that you addressed in the "B" point.

 

[Lonkitt]

In that case, using quotes from his win screen as evidence in his profile is misleading. There should be a note clarifying that it's non-canon, but accurate to his character nonetheless.

It....literally isn't misleading? Again, I'm really not sure if you get how MvC works here, or really just fighting games in general. Either way, that doesn't actually tell us who he beat. He never canonically fought any other character, because if he did, he'd be High 6-B or High 5-A. Are we just going to assume that nameless character he might have beaten some high level combat genius? If we are, cool headcanon, not useable

I never claimed that Phoenix has great combat skills. I wrote that his genius lawyer skills replace his combat skills in combat, since his entire moveset revolves around that and could lead to him winning despite his lack of combat skills.

Again...just because he's a genius lawyer doesn't mean whatever he takes from there and applies to fighting makes him a genius fighter

I didn't ignore it, according to what I wrote in the previous point. I'm not scaling his skill to the other opponents he can face off against in Ultimate Marvel vs. Capcom 3.

You claim you didn't ignore it, and yet, you said in your argument his lawyering abilities can defeat opponents and can outskill Puss. Right

I didn't make them out to be more impressive than you describe. Reality warping abilities aren't required to defeat Puss. Toon force and reality warping are similar anyway.

Reality warping was a hyperbole. My point was, you're exaggerating the usefulness of them

And no, popping up speech bubbles is not at all similar to crazy reality warping

It was an analogy, related to the matter that you addressed in the "B" point.

With all due respect, its not a very strong one


Overall, you're exaggerating Phoenix Wright's combative prowess

 

[James_Plays_4_Games]

It's like saying that because a gardener can fight with their gardening scissors their gardening skill translates to being really good at fighting.

Using your analogy, my point is that the gardener would be capable of throwing around scissors like nunchuks and turning plant metaphors into effects that physically effect the battle. Just because the gardener doesn't know a battle stance, doesn't change the fact that the gardener has incredibly unrealistically good gardening capabilities which they can use in combat to replace combat skill.

Against Tier 6 to Tier 5 characters? That's just game mechanics, the statements aren't implication that he's comparable to them. Unless you're just arguing that he is at all capable of winning fights in general in which case, duh.

My point is purely that Phoenix is capable of succeeding using his unconventional methods of dealing with opponents in a battle. Nothing about tier 6 nor tier 5. I wrote this because I get the impression that you're doubtful of Phoenix being capable of doing anything to defend himself in combat.

Welcome to the concept of a joke character. The entire gag with Phoenix is that he's bumbling his way into not getting owned and somehow turning the match around (kinda like in his home games, honestly). It's a great gag, but Bruce Lee he ain't.

So you acknowledge that Phoenix's gag is that he somehow doesn't get owned, yet you don't believe he would do so against Puss for what reason?

I guarantee to you that thinking about your hyper-fixation will not make you more effective in a fight.

You completely ignored the "to a less extreme extent" and the fact that what I provided was an analogy, not a perfect comparison with the exact same context.

You're right, he would have to move lightly to the left or right, and then stab Phoenix.

That'd be the case if the only move Phoenix would do was that one attack. He still has a versatile moveset overall.

 

[Lonkitt]

Using your analogy, my point is that the gardener would be capable of throwing around scissors like nunchuks and turning plant metaphors into effects that physically effect the battle. Just because the gardener doesn't know a battle stance, doesn't change the fact that the gardener has incredibly unrealistically good gardening capabilities which they can use in combat to replace combat skill.

I think you're really reaching here...

My point is purely that Phoenix is capable of succeeding using his unconventional methods of dealing with opponents in a battle. Nothing about tier 6 nor tier 5. I wrote this because I get the impression that you're doubtful of Phoenix being capable of doing anything to defend himself in combat.

Phoenix can definitely defend himself, but again, there is no confirmation he can defend himself against anyone as skilled as the characters in MvC. If he ever did have a canonical match with them, then yes, he'd easily be able to defend himself against Puss. But since he's never done that....yeah, Puss is gonna be able to beat him handily IMO

So you acknowledge that Phoenix's gag is that he somehow doesn't get owned, yet you don't believe he would do so against Puss for what reason?

Armor has given lots of reasons to doubt Phoenix would pull through. You're just not acknowledging it

You completely ignored the "to a less extreme extent" and the fact that what I provided was an analogy, not a perfect comparison with the exact same context.

Like I said above: Not a strong analogy for your argument

That'd be the case if the only move Phoenix would do was that one attack. He still has a versatile moveset overall.

That he does. But Maya and Missile aren't really gonna be backing Puss into any corners. He can take on trained and experienced warriors by himself, I doubt three non-combatants are gonna have him sweating bullets

 

[James_Plays_4_Games]

It....literally isn't misleading? Again, I'm really not sure if you get how MvC works here, or really just fighting games in general. Either way, that doesn't actually tell us who he beat. He never canonically fought any other character, because if he did, he'd be High 6-B or High 5-A. Are we just going to assume that nameless character he might have beaten some high level combat genius? If we are, cool headcanon, not useable

Again...just because he's a genius lawyer doesn't mean whatever he takes from there and applies to fighting makes him a genius fighter

You claim you didn't ignore it, and yet, you said in your argument his lawyering abilities can defeat opponents and can outskill Puss. Right

I already told that nothing I have written in this thread implies that I'm scaling Phoenix's intelligence to other characters.

So, do you think that Phoenix would just stand still in fear and get stomped by Puss without defending himself at all because he lacks combat skill? That sentiment is what you're defending if you're disagreeing with me. My point is that, like in any Ultimate Marvel vs. Capcom 3 match, Phoenix would use lawyer skills instead of combat skills to fight Puss. My further point is that, since Phoenix's relevant skills are considered as genius, whereas Puss' relevant skills are considered as masterful, Phoenix could arguably find a way to out-skill Puss. I don't mean "out-skill" as in specifically use combat prowess to outclass Puss, I mean "out-skill" as in Phoenix could use his own different specialized skills to find a way to win the battle.

Reality warping was a hyperbole. My point was, you're exaggerating the usefulness of them

And no, popping up speech bubbles is not at all similar to crazy reality warping

I'm discussing Phoenix's skill, but reality warping is of an entirely different nature. A hyperbole is an exaggeration, so how did you get reality warping from exaggerating skill?

 

[Lonkitt]

So, do you think that Phoenix would just stand still in fear and get stomped by Puss without defending himself at all because he lacks combat skill? That sentiment is what you're defending if you're disagreeing with me. My point is that, like in any Ultimate Marvel vs. Capcom 3 match, Phoenix would use lawyer skills instead of combat skills to fight Puss. My further point is that, since Phoenix's relevant skills are considered as genius, whereas Puss' relevant skills are considered as masterful, Phoenix could arguably find a way to out-skill Puss. I don't mean "out-skill" as in specifically use combat prowess to outclass Puss, I mean "out-skill" as in Phoenix could use his own different specialized skills to find a way to win the battle.

I never remotely implied Phoenix would become a coward and let himself get stomped. He would try to defend himself and fight back. Interesting how you're putting words in my mouth...

Anyways, no, you're not using the term "out-skill" correct then. The term you're looking for is "outsmart". There actually is a SIGNIFICANT difference

I'm discussing Phoenix's skill, but reality warping is of an entirely different nature. A hyperbole is an exaggeration, so how did you get reality warping from exaggerating skill?

Okay, so you totally misunderstood what I was explaining

I was just explaining that you really pushing for the speech bubbles being this huge hurdle for Puss is a stretch and its not nearly as effective here as you believe


Please don't try to make me out like I'm selling Phoenix Wright as a defenceless punching bag. Again, I literally made his page and indexed MvC

 

[Armorchompy]

Please don't try to make me out like I'm selling Phoenix Wright as a defenceless punching bag. Again, I literally made his page and indexed MvC

but also that would be accurate to the source material too

 

[Lonkitt]

but also that would be accurate to the source material too

True, he's a complete coward in AA

 

[King_Dom470]

Would just like to note here that puss actually downscales from 0.03572900003346081 tons meaning puss would actually have the ap advantage albeit barely

 

[James_Plays_4_Games]

I never remotely implied Phoenix would become a coward and let himself get stomped. He would try to defend himself and fight back. Interesting how you're putting words in my mouth...

Anyways, no, you're not using the term "out-skill" correct then. The term you're looking for is "outsmart". There actually is a SIGNIFICANT difference

[...]

Please don't try to make me out like I'm selling Phoenix Wright as a defenceless punching bag. Again, I literally made his page and indexed MvC

I was just asking a question, not putting words in your mouth. My thought process went as follows:

1. I wrote a point earlier that aimed to prove a specific sentiment.
2. I saw that people attempted to disprove the point, but they perceived the sentiment as one that I didn't aim to prove.
3. I asked if they, in this case you, agree with what side they would be on if they disagreed with the sentiment I truly aimed to prove.

My question was rhetorical and meant to be a means of revealing that what you think I'm trying to prove isn't actually what I'm trying to prove.

What I actually aim to express is, originally only a single sentence: "Even if Phoenix's attacks aren't entirely social based, he still treats battles as if they're legal cases, and since he's considered as a genius lawyer, he could arguably out-skill Puss somehow.". This isn't me writing that Phoenix would have superior combat mastery than Puss, nor that he could warp reality to turn the combat into a legality case. My point could be reworded as "Even though the intelligence rankings of the characters don't concern the same types of intelligence, they're still both relevant to the match-up, since Phoenix applies his skills to what Puss would be applying his skills to in the battle. Phoenix's genius intelligence would come in handy.". I even wrote in an early message, "I think Puss would put up a good fight, using his skills to slip around what Phoenix would be doing, but I think that Phoenix would end up winning, especially if he enters turnabout mode.", so it's clear that I don't think Phoenix would outclass Puss in combat, just that what Phoenix can unconventionally do in combat is very useful.

Okay, so you totally misunderstood what I was explaining

I was just explaining that you really pushing for the speech bubbles being this huge hurdle for Puss is a stretch and its not nearly as effective here as you believe

I'm describing Phoenix's arsenal and skills in general as a hurdle, with the speech bubbles just being one part of that.

 

[Lonkitt]

I was just asking a question, not putting words in your mouth. My thought process went as follows:

1. I wrote a point earlier that aimed to prove a specific sentiment.
2. I saw that people attempted to disprove the point, but they perceived the sentiment as one that I didn't aim to prove.
3. I asked if they, in this case you, agree with what side they would be on if they disagreed with the sentiment I truly aimed to prove.

My question was rhetorical and meant to be a means of revealing that what you think I'm trying to prove isn't actually what I'm trying to prove.

What I actually aim to express is, originally only a single sentence: "Even if Phoenix's attacks aren't entirely social based, he still treats battles as if they're legal cases, and since he's considered as a genius lawyer, he could arguably out-skill Puss somehow.". This isn't me writing that Phoenix would have superior combat mastery than Puss, nor that he could warp reality to turn the combat into a legality case. My point could be reworded as "Even though the intelligence rankings of the characters don't concern the same types of intelligence, they're still both relevant to the match-up, since Phoenix applies his skills to what Puss would be applying his skills to in the battle. Phoenix's genius intelligence would come in handy.". I even wrote in an early message, "I think Puss would put up a good fight, using his skills to slip around what Phoenix would be doing, but I think that Phoenix would end up winning, especially if he enters turnabout mode.", so it's clear that I don't think Phoenix would outclass Puss in combat, just that what Phoenix can unconventionally do in combat is very useful.

I'm describing Phoenix's arsenal and skills in general as a hurdle, with the speech bubbles just being one part of that.

Phoenix treats fights as legal cases, but that doesn't mean the other opponent has to play ball and treat it the same way. In the same vein, some fighters in media engage in battles for a multitude of personal reasons, treating them in less conventional manners. If this were in fact a legal case, yeah, obviously Puss isn't winning. But its not. Its a fight that Wright treats similarly to a legal case. And yes, finding evidence and so forth will help him progress in the battle. Though we can't entirely translate his impressive courtroom record to the fight as if this is another easy legal case. In regards to outskilling the opponent, Phoenix absolutely cannot achieve that here. What you're thinking of is "outsmarting", but even then, Phoenix finding the evidence he needs for Turnabout Mode and potentially winning isn't really outsmarting in this case, its just a matter of putting up a good defence, finding the evidence with his Supernatural Luck, landing an Objection, then going with an all offensive combat approach

This is why the combat skill difference is so important. Phoenix is not skilled enough to put up that kind of defence against a legitimately combatively versed and experience foe like Puss

 

[James_Plays_4_Games]

Phoenix treats fights as legal cases, but that doesn't mean the other opponent has to play ball and treat it the same way. In the same vein, some fighters in media engage in battles for a multitude of personal reasons, treating them in less conventional manners. If this were in fact a legal case, yeah, obviously Puss isn't winning. But its not. Its a fight that Wright treats similarly to a legal case. And yes, finding evidence and so forth will help him progress in the battle. Though we can't entirely translate his impressive courtroom record to the fight as if this is another easy legal case. In regards to outskilling the opponent, Phoenix absolutely cannot achieve that here. What you're thinking of is "outsmarting", but even then, Phoenix finding the evidence he needs for Turnabout Mode and potentially winning isn't really outsmarting in this case, its just a matter of putting up a good defence, finding the evidence with his Supernatural Luck, landing an Objection, then going with an all offensive combat approach

This is why the combat skill difference is so important. Phoenix is not skilled enough to put up that kind of defence against a legitimately combatively versed and experience foe like Puss

This is useful discussion, and thank you for shifting the discussion to address what I'm actually conveying more accurately, but I still think that the notion I presented is somewhat missed. It's not your bad this time; I figured out a new and better way to describe what I mean.

I'll use the move where Phoenix lifts a paper to explain this. When Phoenix lifts the paper as an attack, he doesn't think about hitting the opponent in a way that would realistically hurt them, he just lifts the paper while thinking about how there's evidence written on it, and it cartoonishly damages the opponent on contact anyway, behaving like a regular attack. I interpret this as being similar to, or I guess the "lawyer" version of, how it can be observed that Puss having done acrobatics to combat the Sleeping Giant of Del Mar was just fun and games to him, even though it required a lot of skill and would've been stressful for someone less skilled but as physically capable as Puss. Both combatants in this match-up have a sort of disconnect between their mindsets and the skills that are required for them to perform what they perform, because of how smart they are. Both of these disconnects are combat applicable, and it seems to me that Phoenix's is greater because he's a genius concerning it and he hardly even behave as though he's fighting while still managing to do so.

The aforementioned isn't to claim that the match would be just another easy legal case for Phoenix, but I think of it as one (non-major) advantage he has in the match-up. As Phoenix's profile states, it also technically counts as a weakness because of the lack of awareness, and I understand that. Puss still has his own high skill that's more directly combat applicable, and I believe that Puss can even win in some circumstances, but I think that Phoenix is more likely to win due to his other additional advantages; ranged options, especially Maya's barrier, which can allow Phoenix to obtain evidence and enter his turnabout mode.

Also, think of Puss' perspective in this match-up. All of a sudden, the opponent who was seemingly just a regular human would be turning expressions into physical attacks and somehow attacking by doing mundane actions, fighting unconventionally in a way that Puss has never seen before. Although Puss has demonstrated the skill to adapt quickly, Phoenix doesn't need much time to obtain evidence and enter turnabout mode if he's not under relentless pressure.

 

[Lonkitt]

I'll use the move where Phoenix lifts a paper to explain this. When Phoenix lifts the paper as an attack, he doesn't think about hitting the opponent in a way that would realistically hurt them, he just lifts the paper while thinking about how there's evidence written on it, and it cartoonishly damages the opponent on contact anyway, behaving like a regular attack. I interpret this as being similar to, or I guess the "lawyer" version of, how it can be observed that Puss having done acrobatics to combat the Sleeping Giant of Del Mar was just fun and games to him, even though it required a lot of skill and would've been stressful for someone less skilled but as physically capable as Puss. Both combatants in this match-up have a sort of disconnect between their mindsets and the skills that are required for them to perform what they perform, because of how smart they are. Both of these disconnects are combat applicable, and it seems to me that Phoenix's is greater because he's a genius concerning it and he hardly even behave as though he's fighting while still managing to do so.

The aforementioned isn't to claim that the match would be just another easy legal case for Phoenix, but I think of it as one (non-major) advantage he has in the match-up. As Phoenix's profile states, it also technically counts as a weakness because of the lack of awareness, and I understand that. Puss still has his own high skill that's more directly combat applicable, and I believe that Puss can even win in some circumstances, but I think that Phoenix is more likely to win due to his other additional advantages; ranged options, especially Maya's barrier, which can allow Phoenix to obtain evidence and enter his turnabout mode.

Also, think of Puss' perspective in this match-up. All of a sudden, the opponent who was seemingly just a regular human would be turning expressions into physical attacks and somehow attacking by doing mundane actions, fighting unconventionally in a way that Puss has never seen before. Although Puss has demonstrated the skill to adapt quickly, Phoenix doesn't need much time to obtain evidence and enter turnabout mode if he's not under relentless pressure.

Again, I think you’re highly exaggerating Phoenix’s moveset

How is simply lifting up a piece of paper, something everybody who has hand is capable of doing, proof that Wright’s mindset as a lawyer is more applicable in combat than Puss’ actual mastery of combat? Im honestly not even sure where to start in explaining how wrong why you’re saying is

Yeah, it’s an attack in the game. But it’s range is terrible and it’s incredibly easy to counter. Puss won’t see it as an attack? Great, because he doesn’t need to. If he sees Phoenix lift up a paper, he’ll perceive that more as his opponent being distracted and Puss can just hit low

I mean really, just realistically think about it. Do you think Puss, while rushing his opponent, his just suddenly going to be hit by a move like lifting a piece of paper, given the incredibly short range on that attack, Puss’ skills as a fighter, and his incredibly small height?

It’s really strange to me how you’re essentially saying “because this normal dude is lifting up a piece of paper, he’s actually got a much greater advantage than the skilled, experienced, and legitimate fighter”

I’m sorry, none of your arguments are hitting the target

 

[Lonkitt]

Another thing I should add: you’re falsely applying Wright’s genius intelligence to how he fights. His genius intelligence does not affect how well he fights, even when treating matches like legal cases. Furthermore, you don’t have to be a genius to lift paper, throw paper, walk towards somebody while reading paper, or slip and fall on your ass