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Speed equalized.
Both at High 1-C.
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Time Lords VS Xeelee
- Thread starter ZacharyGrossman273
- Start date
Speed equalized.
Both at High 1-C.
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This has been a heated debate online for a long time, but I'm with the Xeelee. A lot of casualties would be taken on both sides, though. The Silver Ghosts, a lesser race than the Xeelee, built a device that would've destroyed an 11-dimensional universe and Ghost Pits, which alter the laws of physics locally. I am aware that the Time Lords would stomp the Ghosts into oblivion.
EDIT: Now, I'm with the Time Lords. They have the hax to defeat the Xeelee.
EDIT: Now, I'm with the Time Lords. They have the hax to defeat the Xeelee.
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Q wins
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I'm giving this to the Time Lords for their arguably better hax ( superior time manipulation) and defensive capability (Transduction Barriers)
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Transduction Barrier has limits. Supposedly multiple universebusters can pass thru it or destroy it.
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Even so, the Time Lords ability to warp reality on a seemingly higher scale and remove concepts on a universal scale really gives them an edge.
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Time lords: 3
Xeelee: 1
Xeelee: 1
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But on the other hand Chronovores are 1-Cs not just "universebusters".Hellbeast1 said:
Once the Chronovores have left the Earth a
desiccated husk, where next? Wherever she creates these
alternate realities, the Divine Host will follow.' He threw a
hand in the air. 'Skaro, Telos, Gallifrey, even. This has to
stop.'
'It cannot be stopped. No one in this reality can stand
before the Divine Host and survive.'
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As you can see, not much info is given. We do know that individual Chronovores devour universes and that the Divine Host is made up of millions of Chronovores though.
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Well Time Lord technology has proven to be a match for them, such as when the Master kiss a few in his War Tardis (i'll get you the quote)
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Xeelee win. Gallifrey may be destroyed by a spam of "conventional" weapons such as Daleks' lasers. No more Gallifrey = No more Time Lords.
Xeelee are literally everywhere so they can find and destroy Time Lords much faster than Daleks.
Xeelee are literally everywhere so they can find and destroy Time Lords much faster than Daleks.
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Time Lords: 2
Xeelee: 2
Xeelee: 2
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Still
Xeelee [2:2] Time Lords
Xeelee [2:2] Time Lords
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Time Lords also got invaded by Sontarans which is quite stupid nerf as well... (c) Shepard12
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To be fair they did have the Doctor infiltrate them ahead of the invasion, still stupid though.
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It is a #Xeeleestomp for the reasons below:
1. The name of a given faction is not an argument, and using it as some sort of coupling is rather strange. Your statements in regard to the Anti-Xeelee, just further proves my first assessment, in regard to your knowledge about the Xeelee sequence, and do make your statements regarding this verse rather… weird ( why talking about stuff that you are not familiar with ). But putting this aside, none of the mentioned by you things are all that much OOC for the Xeelee ( as in not at all ).
The Xeelee also do have "perfect time travel", which is available for every single ship of theirs with their FTL. Their time travel technology also doesn't take into consideration such unimportant things like "fixed points in time", "timelines", and the causality. Notice that while it is possible for the Time Lords to circumvent those things too, it requires from them much more effort. For example bringing three different versions of the doctor was described to require massive amounts of the energy from the Eye of the Harmony, in the The Three Doctors episode. And while the Eye was at that time used to combat the drain caused by the Omega,
"CHANCELLOR: You can't allow him to cross his own time stream. Apart from the enormous energy it would need, the First Law of Time expressly forbids him to meet his other selves."
this statement proves that even in other case, such action would require some respectable portion of the power from the eye. Compare this to the fact that some random dude with a Xeelee FTL drive can replicate this "feat" almost effortlessly…
Time Locking and looping stuff is also nothing new. The existence of the Paul from Vacuum diagrams, was in a form of a time loop, which the Anti-Xeelee has created for fun, and the Earth at the year 1 million was also time locked to preserve it during the Xeelee siege. Also the Xeelee do live on the event horizons of the black holes, which means that infinite time dilation is a normal environment for them.
Creating pocket universes ( or "bubble worlds" ) is again nothing impressive. The Xeelee did the same for the future humans, where they put them into the box version of the Earth. They also have created universes, some of which infinite in size and matter, as zoos for all intelligent baryonic species in their uni/multiverse ( definition are rather fluid here ), like the Silver Ghosts.
About the timeline manipulation, the Transcendence ( a second rate power at best compared to them ), was capable of folding all timelines with humans in them, from across the multiverse ( all versions of all universes the humans have ended up in, through the Ring ), into a single history, where every single human that could ever live ( a number with millions in its exponent ), would live a full and happy life. This is Restoration for you.
Their next plan, called Cleansing, was meant to be a deletion of all possible versions of the humanity, across the multiverse, to ensure that the suffering of humans won't exist ( and stuff like gravastar shielding, which remove you from the causality, or being in some random uni/multiverse accessible by the Ring would mean nothing ). The Xeelee of course treated them as some unimportant nuisance. In fact a lot of what the Transcendence does, can be based on something very much similar to the biodata, only better in this regard that it doesn't distinguish in any form sentient and no sentient things, like the biodata does. In fact If we want to use biodata, then thanks to the fact that the Xeelee are acausal, their biodata would be infinite…
"Quite obviously, if either side in the War could entirely ignore the Protocols then it would provide a major strategic advantage. For example, just prior to the War the ruling Houses dispatched a number of agents to hunt down the 102-form timeship known as Compassion, as by then it was already clear to both the ruling Houses and the War King that the 102-form would be a decisive factor in the coming conflict. As only a finite number of agents were available, this mission was ultimately a failure: but if Linearity hadn`t been obeyed, then the Houses would only have needed one agent and the mission might have been much more successful. The agent would have had an infinite amount of time left before the start of the War, and could comfortably have spent entire millennia searching every single site where the Compassion unit might have been found."
In fact the great plan of the Time Lords, in the form of the final sanction… would result in what the Xeelee do take as granted ( acausality ect. )
"RASSILON: We will initiate the Final Sanction. The end of time will come at my hand. The rupture will continue until it rips the Time Vortex apart. MASTER: That's suicide. RASSILON: We will ascend to become creatures of consciousness alone. Free of these bodies, free of time, and cause and effect, while creation itself ceases to be. "
In other words their time manipulation is far from being as impressive as one could think, compared to the Xeelee's one.
You might also notice that I have used the term uni/multiverse. This is caused by the fact that each of the Xeeleeverse "universes" contains all possible variations of said universe ( histories, timelines, possibilities, whatever you want to call them ), in its Configuration Space. And citing The Burden must pass ( a guys from Exultant name ):
"Not transient, exactly," Burden called back. "Just one of an uncountably infinite number of possibilities which will, cumulatively, be resolved at timelike infinity, after the manner of a collapse of quantum functions."
There is a lot of them.
2. Again no. The Xeelee were capable of creating infinite and static universe, which contradicts the laws of the general relativity, the laws governing the singularities, and the laws of the very logic ( given how it implements the Olbers paradox in it ). They did this for a single species, from a single galaxy, from a rather short period of said galaxy history, and have designed it in such a way only for said universe to be philosophically appealing for said species. The wormhole feat is also not that much impressive when you do know a little bit about the elementary particles, and how they aren't all that much different from black holes in the first place.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_hole_electro
**** even Einstein was entertaining the notion of electrons being small Einstein -Rosen bridges… ergo wormholes. So this isn't that much impressive ( especially if you connect with this fact that even Silver Ghosts were capable of targeting a specific things with their "changed physics" regions, for example to destroy weapons but not kill people holding said weapons ).
The Xeelee are also not limited to local changes in physics, the proto-Xeelee changing the ratio of matter and anti matter ( using a naked singularity… which does sound familiar, doesn't it ), had to be non local, as it was performed on their whole universe ( we don't see any anti matter even in stories that do take place on the edge of the Earth's Hubble volume like the quagma datum ), and said universe is "trillion, times a trillion, times a trillion, times a trillion" times larger than its observable part, post inflation.
Also again the shit the Transcendence was planning to do, with "Such trivialities as causality and consequence would be abandoned", number of humans present in that new history being larger than the number of subatomic particles in the observable universe ( by a lot of orders of magnitude ), and yet all of this humans living happy lives… despite the fact that some of them would make other impossible to exist in the first place ect. This is far from "hard sci fi reality manipulation", as you call it.
3. The second part is based on the assumption that the Chronovore while destroying the universe, perform it by some sort of "brute force approach". This is a high end interpretation, that doesn't take into consideration any "hax" effects Chronovore might use in their actions.
Also the universes in the doctor who are typically only dozens of billions of light years wide… which compared to a single Xeelee "universe", which post inflation was 10^48 times larger than its observable part ( in our times, about 94 billion light years wide ), is indeed tiny.
"An average universe, at roughly two-thirds of its maximum pre-collapse expansion, is approximately 157,000,000,000 light-years in circumference and 25,000,000,000 temporal years in radius. Its known that there are many secondary and tertiary universes, brother and sister domains, each deriving ultimately from the same stretch of De Sitter space-time. The recognized universe ― the universe familiar to the perception of most living things (and even, perhaps, the perception of the time-ships) ― is one such secondary domain, a "growth" originating in the proto-continuum."
So yeah, the Xeelee, given how they were responsible for the Inflation, which has released enough energy to create roughly 10^48 ( as to not think if Baxter means volume or radius by this whole, "trillion times a trillion ect." part of the Exultant ) hubble volumes, would be capable of breaking through the barrier, even using this high end interpretation of it.
All in all, if you want to find more this thread ( as we seem to be using spacebattles as a source here ) is quite good, as it list a lot of what I have stated here, along with the citations.
https://forums.spacebattles.com/threads/daleks-vs-xeelee.510262/
All in all, the yt comment section is not designed for such a discussion, but meh. Also me being rude in the first comment, might have been a case, and for that I do apologise.´╗┐
Source, have a look at the comment section: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LUoFjtz_06U&lc=UgyNdcvwP6hI8GsYfB14AaABAg.8Zxb3rreZ378_BsFMV1PGa
1. The name of a given faction is not an argument, and using it as some sort of coupling is rather strange. Your statements in regard to the Anti-Xeelee, just further proves my first assessment, in regard to your knowledge about the Xeelee sequence, and do make your statements regarding this verse rather… weird ( why talking about stuff that you are not familiar with ). But putting this aside, none of the mentioned by you things are all that much OOC for the Xeelee ( as in not at all ).
The Xeelee also do have "perfect time travel", which is available for every single ship of theirs with their FTL. Their time travel technology also doesn't take into consideration such unimportant things like "fixed points in time", "timelines", and the causality. Notice that while it is possible for the Time Lords to circumvent those things too, it requires from them much more effort. For example bringing three different versions of the doctor was described to require massive amounts of the energy from the Eye of the Harmony, in the The Three Doctors episode. And while the Eye was at that time used to combat the drain caused by the Omega,
"CHANCELLOR: You can't allow him to cross his own time stream. Apart from the enormous energy it would need, the First Law of Time expressly forbids him to meet his other selves."
this statement proves that even in other case, such action would require some respectable portion of the power from the eye. Compare this to the fact that some random dude with a Xeelee FTL drive can replicate this "feat" almost effortlessly…
Time Locking and looping stuff is also nothing new. The existence of the Paul from Vacuum diagrams, was in a form of a time loop, which the Anti-Xeelee has created for fun, and the Earth at the year 1 million was also time locked to preserve it during the Xeelee siege. Also the Xeelee do live on the event horizons of the black holes, which means that infinite time dilation is a normal environment for them.
Creating pocket universes ( or "bubble worlds" ) is again nothing impressive. The Xeelee did the same for the future humans, where they put them into the box version of the Earth. They also have created universes, some of which infinite in size and matter, as zoos for all intelligent baryonic species in their uni/multiverse ( definition are rather fluid here ), like the Silver Ghosts.
About the timeline manipulation, the Transcendence ( a second rate power at best compared to them ), was capable of folding all timelines with humans in them, from across the multiverse ( all versions of all universes the humans have ended up in, through the Ring ), into a single history, where every single human that could ever live ( a number with millions in its exponent ), would live a full and happy life. This is Restoration for you.
Their next plan, called Cleansing, was meant to be a deletion of all possible versions of the humanity, across the multiverse, to ensure that the suffering of humans won't exist ( and stuff like gravastar shielding, which remove you from the causality, or being in some random uni/multiverse accessible by the Ring would mean nothing ). The Xeelee of course treated them as some unimportant nuisance. In fact a lot of what the Transcendence does, can be based on something very much similar to the biodata, only better in this regard that it doesn't distinguish in any form sentient and no sentient things, like the biodata does. In fact If we want to use biodata, then thanks to the fact that the Xeelee are acausal, their biodata would be infinite…
"Quite obviously, if either side in the War could entirely ignore the Protocols then it would provide a major strategic advantage. For example, just prior to the War the ruling Houses dispatched a number of agents to hunt down the 102-form timeship known as Compassion, as by then it was already clear to both the ruling Houses and the War King that the 102-form would be a decisive factor in the coming conflict. As only a finite number of agents were available, this mission was ultimately a failure: but if Linearity hadn`t been obeyed, then the Houses would only have needed one agent and the mission might have been much more successful. The agent would have had an infinite amount of time left before the start of the War, and could comfortably have spent entire millennia searching every single site where the Compassion unit might have been found."
In fact the great plan of the Time Lords, in the form of the final sanction… would result in what the Xeelee do take as granted ( acausality ect. )
"RASSILON: We will initiate the Final Sanction. The end of time will come at my hand. The rupture will continue until it rips the Time Vortex apart. MASTER: That's suicide. RASSILON: We will ascend to become creatures of consciousness alone. Free of these bodies, free of time, and cause and effect, while creation itself ceases to be. "
In other words their time manipulation is far from being as impressive as one could think, compared to the Xeelee's one.
You might also notice that I have used the term uni/multiverse. This is caused by the fact that each of the Xeeleeverse "universes" contains all possible variations of said universe ( histories, timelines, possibilities, whatever you want to call them ), in its Configuration Space. And citing The Burden must pass ( a guys from Exultant name ):
"Not transient, exactly," Burden called back. "Just one of an uncountably infinite number of possibilities which will, cumulatively, be resolved at timelike infinity, after the manner of a collapse of quantum functions."
There is a lot of them.
2. Again no. The Xeelee were capable of creating infinite and static universe, which contradicts the laws of the general relativity, the laws governing the singularities, and the laws of the very logic ( given how it implements the Olbers paradox in it ). They did this for a single species, from a single galaxy, from a rather short period of said galaxy history, and have designed it in such a way only for said universe to be philosophically appealing for said species. The wormhole feat is also not that much impressive when you do know a little bit about the elementary particles, and how they aren't all that much different from black holes in the first place.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_hole_electro
**** even Einstein was entertaining the notion of electrons being small Einstein -Rosen bridges… ergo wormholes. So this isn't that much impressive ( especially if you connect with this fact that even Silver Ghosts were capable of targeting a specific things with their "changed physics" regions, for example to destroy weapons but not kill people holding said weapons ).
The Xeelee are also not limited to local changes in physics, the proto-Xeelee changing the ratio of matter and anti matter ( using a naked singularity… which does sound familiar, doesn't it ), had to be non local, as it was performed on their whole universe ( we don't see any anti matter even in stories that do take place on the edge of the Earth's Hubble volume like the quagma datum ), and said universe is "trillion, times a trillion, times a trillion, times a trillion" times larger than its observable part, post inflation.
Also again the shit the Transcendence was planning to do, with "Such trivialities as causality and consequence would be abandoned", number of humans present in that new history being larger than the number of subatomic particles in the observable universe ( by a lot of orders of magnitude ), and yet all of this humans living happy lives… despite the fact that some of them would make other impossible to exist in the first place ect. This is far from "hard sci fi reality manipulation", as you call it.
3. The second part is based on the assumption that the Chronovore while destroying the universe, perform it by some sort of "brute force approach". This is a high end interpretation, that doesn't take into consideration any "hax" effects Chronovore might use in their actions.
Also the universes in the doctor who are typically only dozens of billions of light years wide… which compared to a single Xeelee "universe", which post inflation was 10^48 times larger than its observable part ( in our times, about 94 billion light years wide ), is indeed tiny.
"An average universe, at roughly two-thirds of its maximum pre-collapse expansion, is approximately 157,000,000,000 light-years in circumference and 25,000,000,000 temporal years in radius. Its known that there are many secondary and tertiary universes, brother and sister domains, each deriving ultimately from the same stretch of De Sitter space-time. The recognized universe ― the universe familiar to the perception of most living things (and even, perhaps, the perception of the time-ships) ― is one such secondary domain, a "growth" originating in the proto-continuum."
So yeah, the Xeelee, given how they were responsible for the Inflation, which has released enough energy to create roughly 10^48 ( as to not think if Baxter means volume or radius by this whole, "trillion times a trillion ect." part of the Exultant ) hubble volumes, would be capable of breaking through the barrier, even using this high end interpretation of it.
All in all, if you want to find more this thread ( as we seem to be using spacebattles as a source here ) is quite good, as it list a lot of what I have stated here, along with the citations.
https://forums.spacebattles.com/threads/daleks-vs-xeelee.510262/
All in all, the yt comment section is not designed for such a discussion, but meh. Also me being rude in the first comment, might have been a case, and for that I do apologise.´╗┐
Source, have a look at the comment section: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LUoFjtz_06U&lc=UgyNdcvwP6hI8GsYfB14AaABAg.8Zxb3rreZ378_BsFMV1PGa
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Xeelee FRA
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From spacebattles:
Event Two: when the universe would collapse back into singularity. Although they could survey the entire universe from the lofty heights of Gallifrey, it was impossible for the Time Lords to travel into their own future and they couldn't change their own past. That was the fealty paid for their title.
Also this part about Time Lords not being capable of affecting their own history is rather… intresting. And while making a quick search through this book I have found other such fragments.
He wondered if the descendants of the Time Lords would be amongst their number. The planet Gallifrey itself would be gone, of course, its star long exhausted. The people of Gallifrey might have migrated to a new planet, or perhaps to an artificial environment of some kind.
But if Gallifrey could fall, then what hope for the lesser races?
Or this one indicating that the death of the home star/matter evaporation, would cause the destruction of the Gallifrey… Such things shouldn't matter at all for a civilisation that is supposed to be capable of rewriting physics ect.
Event Two: when the universe would collapse back into singularity. Although they could survey the entire universe from the lofty heights of Gallifrey, it was impossible for the Time Lords to travel into their own future and they couldn't change their own past. That was the fealty paid for their title.
Also this part about Time Lords not being capable of affecting their own history is rather… intresting. And while making a quick search through this book I have found other such fragments.
He wondered if the descendants of the Time Lords would be amongst their number. The planet Gallifrey itself would be gone, of course, its star long exhausted. The people of Gallifrey might have migrated to a new planet, or perhaps to an artificial environment of some kind.
But if Gallifrey could fall, then what hope for the lesser races?
Or this one indicating that the death of the home star/matter evaporation, would cause the destruction of the Gallifrey… Such things shouldn't matter at all for a civilisation that is supposed to be capable of rewriting physics ect.
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I'm sorry but what is a Xelee? Like I keep on hearing about them everywhere but I have no clue what so ever on what they are.
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You may read about them here, on forums.spacebattles.com or on other wikis. Google is your friend.Thatoneguy78 said:
