Tier For (Somehow) Destroying a Black Hole?

[Angry_Dummy]

Well, he did open the wrong end of the bag...

Considering that fictional characters break the laws of reality before breakfast every morning, I'd like to know how we would handle a character who performs such an impossible feat, granted the following bits of information.

1. The black hole is treated as the real deal. The author did his research on how it works. The tone of the work also hangs closer to "Action-Comedy" than "Looney Toons," which makes this feat, while not an outlier for the setting, highly notable and to be taken seriously.

2. The character who performed the feat did so through a combination of impossibly great strength, magical ability, and being too dumb to understand that what he just did was impossible.

3. The destruction of the black hole was shown. Specifically, it was ripped apart in a very physical and violent manner by the character in question.

4. Those who know about how black holes work don't believe that it happened when told, citing the very same logistics as this site as the reason why. Those who know the character who performed the feat consider it just another day of work for him, as breaking the laws of reality by being too dumb to understand them is part of his whole shtick.

5. Later interactions with him and black holes play out similarly, such as being hurled into one and pulling himself out, feeling more insulted than indefinitely crushed.

Basically, "How powerful would you have to be in order to ignore the strong-arm the laws of nature without being named Bugs Bunny?" I'm looking for as low-end of an explanation as possible, mostly because I find low-end characters who do the impossible more fun than advanced calculus in character form.

 

[Alexcar3000]

This sounds like something I would write...i liek u.

Well, depends on what a "low-end" is to you, but I consider destroying an average blackhole to be a High 4-C feat, a tiny one just 4-C and a big one 4-B. I don't know what others would say, but by how the wiki threats blackholes they would say it qualifies as a High 3-A feat.

 

[The_Living_Tribunal1]

as for a black hole, it is undefined, the only thing we can calculate for black hole is energy to make them our of nothing


the destruction is unknown since known laws of nature tend to breakdown in black holes


as for survival- i think one can use tidal forces and relativistic geodesics, but thats year 4 material and its really out of hands

also, that too breaks down after a point

 

[Angry_Dummy]

Low-End in this thread means, "If I can find a character who can do things like this while still being 10-C, I am going down an entire bottle of champagne in celebration." I'm looking around to see how small a character can be on the scale and still do this. 4-C is a good start, considering high 3-A to low 2-C was my original guess.


As for the personal question, low-end is, to me, wall-level. Tiers 10-8 are my favorite to deal with, as they typically keep the stakes down at a level where everything is personal and the number of lives in danger are not equivalent to the number of sand particles on the beach and my brain can longer think of them as anything more important than a string of digits. They're also really fun to come up with and find ways of taking down heavy-hitting characters like Goku and Sephiroth with just a little bit of intelligence, preparation, trickery, filthy-fighting, and toxic chemicals, or maybe just a gimmick that they can't compete with.

For example, a mostly 10-B character who can eat any normal, non-magical, non-living material (including things like stainless steel, rocks, and entire lakes), moves infinitely fast, and bears a grudge against Goku would be a nasty villain for a Dragon Ball fanfic, in my eyes. With the right personality and mannerisms, he could make for a great fanmade filler villain, eating Goku out of house and home right before he eats the home, trying to get him to starve, dehydrate, and exhaust himself to death, all while effortlessly dodging his attacks and hurling insults and stones at him. Even Beerus would come to loathe the insufferable pest!

 

[The_Living_Tribunal1]

ok first of all

how on earth do you have low end blaack hole destruction at 4-C?

you do know that we can makee temporary black holes out of many things, like even the earth and smaller things

also, the GBE of a nuetron star alone is 4-B

while its undefined for the core of a blackhole, since our current theories dont define it well

once again, this can ONLY be done by cacs- and there are no possible calcs (yet) for destroying a black hole

so the feat of destroying one is unquantifiable

 

[Alexcar3000]

LONG POST!

You know that character would end up being Goku's friend, hating Goku is something all villains had done in the past, and now one is his bestfriend and the other is his kid's personal nanny. But a Tier 10-8 char that can do that can only do it with hax, there is a line between acceptable and outlier, and a Tier 10-B can be rekt by a chancla throw being able to destroy a blackhole is PIS unless he/she has an stablished hax like gravity manipulation, but a Tier 4 doing that is acceptable on my eyes.

@TLT1

I dunno, I just know that blackholes have a mass comparable that of stars, and a big mass tends to bend gravity so a blackhole can bend significally more in his surroundings because it's smaller so all that strenght is more concentrated in smaller areas... I know that I opperate under Winnie the Pooh logic, but still...

 

[Angry_Dummy]

Okay then, I'll write that down as Low 2-C on account of spitting on the shoes of our mathematicians and how reality works.

 

[Alexcar3000]

Okay then, I'll write that down as Low 2-C on account of spitting on the shoes of our mathematicians and how reality works.

No, it should be High 3-A because all that space-time warp is not on a Universal scale (that is Low 2-C). IMO, a Tier 4 character that has gravity hax could "destroy" it, but that's just me I guess.

 

[The_Living_Tribunal1]

no please dont write it down anywhere

we have no clue about this stuff at all

and we have had many discussion about this already


also, alex

the black hole can be made from anything, but if u trhhy to destroy it, it simply grows

in fiction, this doesnt happen

 

[Alexcar3000]

also, alex

the black hole can be made from anything, but if u trhhy to destroy it, it simply grows

in fiction, this doesnt happen

Well, until someone makes a space-time affecting gravity bomb and throws it at a blackhole all we can do now is speculate and make up theories, but if a blackhole does affect space-time in a not-universal scale, that makes it High 3-A by our tiering system.

 

[A6colute]

space-time warp

Space-time warp can be even 10 tier.

 

[Angry_Dummy]

LONG POST!

Sorry about that. I'm long-winded. >_<

I didn't actually expect a 10-C character to perform a feat like destroying a black hole, but I wanted to make a point of trying to find as low-end a method of doing so as possible in fiction, and if a character like that really did have a way of making it work through some sort of power, I would start drowning myself in alcohol and leave this site for about two years.

17:36, February 17, 2016 (UTC)17:36, February 17, 2016 (UTC)17:36, February 17, 2016 (UTC)17:36, February 17, 2016 (UTC)17:36, February 17, 2016 (UTC)17:36, February 17, 2016 (UTC)17:36, February 17, 2016 (UTC)17:36, February 17, 2016 (UTC)17:36, February 17, 2016 (UTC)17:36, February 17, 2016 (UTC)17:36, February 17, 2016 (UTC)17:36, February 17, 2016 (UTC)17:36, February 17, 2016 (UTC)17:36, February 17, 2016 (UTC)17:36, February 17, 2016 (UTC)17:36, February 17, 2016 (UTC)17:36, February 17, 2016 (UTC)Angry Dummy (talk)

The character (whom I shall now call "Jack Rabbit" on account of his speed and desire to eat everything) would probably have gotten to where he was after finding out that Goku's desire to have a good fight has wound up destroying the earth on more than one occasion, managing to sneak and sweet-talk his way to the Dragon Balls, and working out a wish with Shenron to get the most mileage out of the dragon's power (Ron can't make him stronger than he is, after all) in his quest for revenge. He's a human who just found out someone has killed him on multiple occasions for a selfish goal and tried to reset so nobody knew what happened, and now he wants to get some payback by sacrificing strength and toughness for speed and tricks. Smells like Megalovania to me.

 

[Alexcar3000]

LONG POST!

The character (whom I shall now call "Jack Rabbit" on account of his speed and desire to eat everything) would probably have gotten to where he was after finding out that Goku's desire to have a good fight has wound up destroying the earth on more than one occasion, managing to sneak and sweet-talk his way to the Dragon Balls, and working out a wish with Shenron to get the most mileage out of the dragon's power (Ron can't make him stronger than he is, after all) in his quest for revenge. He's a human who just found out someone has killed him on multiple occasions for a selfish goal and tried to reset so nobody knew what happened, and now he wants to get some payback by sacrificing strength and toughness for speed and tricks. Smells like Megalovania to me.

Well, accidentally destroying the Earth could work, but... if there's no Earth, then there's no Balls... you should fix that, and Goku's a Saiya-jin, so his love for fighting is a natural trait, not exactly a "selfish desire" like a human wanting money or power, he is pure of heart after all, if he wasn't his hearth would have exploded by Akkuman's attack, he couldn't ride the nimbus, he couldn't drink the Super Sacred Water, nor he could turn SSG. I see him as simply as wanting to have some fun SPARing with someone, but he wouldn't really do it if that means the death of his loved ones, or the innocent.

 

[Angry_Dummy]

The series is fond of using Shenron to fix the Earth when it blows up repeatedly. Yes, that would work. Goku and Vegeta were also chastised by Whis at the end of Revival of F for letting the Earth get destroyed because they were arguing over who got to defeat Frieza. Whis had to fix the darned thing again.

The Earth is fixed and everything is in order, and so everything would be set up again.

And Jack isn't perfectly sympathetic, either. Instead of talking things out and trying to help talk some sense into Goku, he goes straight for the artifacts of unimaginable power to try and starve the guy to death, even though he's a force for good who is still trying to help save the place. Goku is not the villain, but his repeated stupidity remains uncontested among fans.

...And now this thread has gotten off topic.

 

[Alexcar3000]

The series is fond of using Shenron to fix the Earth when it blows up repeatedly. Yes, that would work. Goku and Vegeta were also chastised by Whis at the end of Revival of F for letting the Earth get destroyed because they were arguing over who got to defeat Frieza. Whis had to fix the darned thing again.
The Earth is fixed and everything is in order, and so everything would be set up again.

And Jack isn't perfectly sympathetic, either. Instead of talking things out and trying to help talk some sense into Goku, he goes straight for the artifacts of unimaginable power to try and starve the guy to death, even though he's a force for good who is still trying to help save the place. Goku is not the villain, but his repeated stupidity remains uncontested among fans.

...And now this thread has gotten off topic.

Yup, someone should close the thread then.

Well the problem is... even if he kills him... Goku still keeps his body when "dead" (and he respawns in the other world), so he's just gonna IT to him, and when he's dead, he's stronger (lol) than normal. So, everytime Jack "kills" him again, Goku could just IT back to him again lol, Megalovania indeed. Why the guy gets hungry while dead I don't know, but it happens.

 

[The_Living_Tribunal1]

black holes are unquantufyable

and for now, destroying them is considered hax or simply unquantifibale

irl, you cannot destroy a black hole actively at all

they just cant be destroyed, unless you starve them for trillions of years - in that case they end up radiating out what they consumed due to so much loss due to hawking radiation

 

[Antvasima]

I agree with TLT1. Regardless whether the series othervise attempts to portray the black hole as "real", if it is destroyed by 3-Dimensional physical force it definitely is not.

That said, yes it would likely take higher-dimensional degrees of infinite power to overcome a singularity, but we do not know how this would work, so the feat is still likely unquantifiable.

 

[The_Living_Tribunal1]

well

tehnically speaking, under our understanding of nature, nothing can destroy a black hole

no higher dimensional construct or anything

to destroy a blackhole you need to make an inequality M^2 > (J/M)^2 + Q^2 undedined

but so far, it seems to be paradoxical, and even if a black hole settles into a steady state we do not know what will happe

simply put, it is unquantifyable

 

[DontTalk]

I wouldn't be sure about higher dimension technically not destroying black holes. Ignoring the theory of 11-dimensional supergravitation all gravitation only applys force through 3-dimensional space.

Most black holes rotate, so that their singularity is a ring instead of a point.

A ring has the nice attribute that one can apply different amounts of force to different sections of it.

Even a black hole conserves momentum, so a higher dimensional entity can hit a part of the ring and transfer a momentum $ (x, y, z, a) $ with $ x,y,z,a \in \mathbb{R} $ and $ a \neq 0 $ to it. By that this part will move a distance $ d \neq 0 $ into the direction a, while the rest of the black hole won't, since there isn't any force pulling it in those direction (the usual mechanism of gravity holding it together doesn't apply, since gravity will only "propagate" in 3 dimensional directions). So by that method (which actually works quite well, because of the slightly different momentum usually applied through simple things, because of chaotic stuff like heat) one could dispense the matter/energy of a black hole over a larger higher dimensional space eventually (when done well enough) costing it the density to be a black hole. That is at least my speculation, but they are technically unquantifiable, yes.

 

[The_Living_Tribunal1]

how exactly can someone disperse the matter from inside a black hole

keep in mind, black holes are special and hence will only operate under the current (and large speculative and relatively primitive) models of physics we have

thereby, anything that goes inside a black hole, will have their light cones- that is literally their future events pointed within the black hole (normally the light cones sit normally on spacetime itself),

we know very very little about blackholes overall, and everything so far is theoretical only (and faulty- such as infinite density - which comes from 0 point ssize- which itself indicates that the known laws dont work- and not necessarily that it is actually that small)


with all that said, they are unquantifiable in destruction

 

[Angry_Dummy]

I wouldn't be sure about higher dimension technically not destroying black holes. Ignoring the theory of 11-dimensional supergravitation all gravitation only applys force through 3-dimensional space.
Most black holes rotate, so that their singularity is a ring instead of a point.

A ring has the nice attribute that one can apply different amounts of force to different sections of it.

Even a black hole conserves momentum, so a higher dimensional entity can hit a part of the ring and transfer a momentum $ (x, y, z, a) $ with $ x,y,z,a \in \mathbb{R} $ and $ a \neq 0 $ to it. By that this part will move a distance $ d \neq 0 $ into the direction a, while the rest of the black hole won't, since there isn't any force pulling it in those direction (the usual mechanism of gravity holding it together doesn't apply, since gravity will only "propagate" in 3 dimensional directions). So by that method (which actually works quite well, because of the slightly different momentum usually applied through simple things, because of chaotic stuff like heat) one could dispense the matter/energy of a black hole over a larger higher dimensional space eventually (when done well enough) costing it the density to be a black hole. That is at least my speculation, but they are technically unquantifiable, yes.

Thank you for doing... whatever level of mathematics that is.

I don't think the guy who performed the feat would really understand anything beyond, "Technically, you can do it," but thank you anyways.

I disagree with statements of "if it's destroyed, then it never really was a black hole." Mostly because of the magic of characters who do the impossible regardless. My logic is, "If a character can do battle with abstract concepts such as death and time and win, without any sort of physical avatar to hit, then maybe something like breaking a black hole in half is rather tame by comparison and I should remember that what happens in a story > what reality says would actually happen."

The assumption here was, "Yes, it's a real black hole that follows all of our laws."

The question was how much power one needs to ignore those laws.

 

[Promestein]

The answer to that is 'an unquantifiable amount of power'.

 

[Dekoshu]

Here are two things to know about. What a proper black hole should do and rather than merely calling it real, as we have already list out exactly things what a standard black hole can do. Another thing is in order to properly and realistically destroy a black hole unaided (that means no "plot contrivance" by anyone else as in, both non-literary and literary terms), merely being a three-dimensional being and using three-dimensional force isn't enough. They would be have to able to negate the absorption and other factors a black hole has and be able to outright erase it, rather than making it larger or worsening it. They have to be a truly higher-dimensional being, along with their abilities.

 

[Angry_Dummy]

The answer to that is 'an unquantifiable amount of power'.

...

So... High 3-A?

2-C?

0?

I've spent enough time on this site to get numb to words like "infinite," "unquantifiable," and, "higher-dimensional," but not enough time to figure out where one stops and another begins!

Do we just not have any idea if a person who sees this world like we do a painting can destroy a black hole by ripping apart the reality where it exists?

 

[TheMightyRegulator]

High 3-A is 3 dimensional so low 2-C and above.

 

[DontTalk]

...

Yes, that is just speculation since we don't really know how it works, but to explain my idea:

The light cone is only bent absolutely in the 3 usual spacial dimensions. A 4th dimension would in theory stay unaffected by the space being bent like that.

One could imagine it like in a stack of paper all lines being straight, except for one piece were the lines are bent. The bent paper being our universe with its gravitation and everything else being just empty space. In the unbent (euclidian) space you would not notice anyting from the gravitation of the black hole and can because of that move freely. Basically a higher dimensional entity can approach the center of a black hole without proplem, by simply sidestepping out of the reach of the effects anything 3 dimensional can reach, inculding gravitation. And by removing the mass/energy of the black hole out of the 3 dimensional system as well it can be dispersed.

It is of course a rather simple and badly though through idea, but an interesting theory ^^

 

[DontTalk]

...

So... High 3-A?

2-C?

0?

I've spent enough time on this site to get numb to words like "infinite," "unquantifiable," and, "higher-dimensional," but not enough time to figure out where one stops and another begins!

Do we just not have any idea if a person who sees this world like we do a painting can destroy a black hole by ripping apart the reality where it exists?

The answer is hax or unknown. Or better: would not be considered as long as not explained how it was done. Reality warping or similar things are equally likely to the idea I had. For normal ripping apart it just doesn't work, one has to use a special strategy.

 

[Angry_Dummy]

...

Hmm...

Okay... okay!

Thanks, DT, for managing to explain something like this to a writer brain!


Okay then, so the answer is that, in order to flat-out ignore the 3-D laws that make a black hole what it is, you would have to be at least low 2-C to affect the thing. That's... pretty much my first guess.

I would have explained it as, "Because only a character of that tier can tell the rules that make a black hole invincible to go screw themselves and rip it up," but that was my first guess.


...Looks like the question I asked doesn't really work the way it was posed, but a different question was answered.

It's not, "How much power do you need?"

It's, "How would one go about destroying a black hole that functions realistically using the tools granted by fiction?"

Doesn't help at all during VS debates, but still fun and educational for me! Thanks, ya'll!

 

[The_Living_Tribunal1]

the light cone can also have a higher dimensional configuration

also, a high dimensinonal object will have the extra coordinated unaffect, but any coordinates that happen to fall into a 3-D span near this even will be affected (the same way if i put my hand in path of an unimaginbly dense 2-D plane, it will cut through its respective X-Y plane, but all other X-Y planes in me will be unaffected)


once again, it is all speculation, and for anything concrete, physics will be needed to put forth (general relativistic models at least)

and to answer the OP: 4-C or 3-A or low 2-C- are all equally inadequate to something that cannot be quantified

 

[Dekoshu]

Unless they clearly have the ability of bypassing the intangibility of black holes and have something of higher-dimensional power and are biologically higher-dimensional, as well as beyond the limitations of standard durability, as in, outright immunity (cannot be pulled into the black hole against their will, able to be destroyed, or undergoing spaghettification is out of the question for them), they wouldn't be doing anything to them and will literally die, helplessly stuck in the singularity.

 

[Angry_Dummy]

Part of the fun of this for me is having a bunch of people explain how I could better write and justify the powers of characters beyond the scale of 5-A.

"The titan was able to rend the black hole because it is a magical construct who exists partially beyond our reality, creates and obliterates planes of existence with ease, and whose magical power, speed, and durability is defined, drawn from, and limited only by its overactive imagination and incredibly small IQ," is a lot more interesting than, "The titan rended the black hole because he's really strong and I don't care about physics and you can't argue with me about it because I'm the author and you're not. Nah nah na boo boo."

 

[The_Living_Tribunal1]

• sigh* you cannot use a black hole destruction to justify the powers beyond 5-A when it is unquantifiable

but as for as creation goes, use the formula

r(BH) = 2GM(BH)/(C^2)

 

[DontTalk]

@The Living Tribunal1 :

I have the feeling we confuse people with our discussion...

Either way, a light cone can have a higher dimensional configuration, actually it should have for higher dimensional movement, but in standard theory only the 3 dimensional plane bits will be bent.

Basically it is the idea of avoiding the piece of paper that one can not pull apart, by poking a hole in it. For the infinite dense plane problem... oh well then the character just should not stand in it. for the punch itself it shouldn't be much of a problem through, since infinitesimal contact would suffice.

I just think the theory is fun really, I do by no means suggest to practically consider it.

 

[The_Living_Tribunal1]

so its like the 2-D plane example- as in only one section in the span gets affected, but relatively looking at dimensions there are indefinite number of spans, so the overal body remains safe (unless the lack of that one tiny coordinate set in the partcular region is enough to slice the body)


but yes, i get what you are proposing as a thought experiment

 

[TheMightyRegulator]

I seem to be sensing conflicting ideologies. Can higher dimensional beings do it? If so how high?

From what I gathered so far:

1. No it is unquantifiable though it can be done by hax.

2. Yes, due to the ability of higher dimensional beings to alter reality, though it can also be done by hax Which is it? Both?

 

[Dekoshu]

Part of the fun of this for me is having a bunch of people explain how I could better write and justify the powers of characters beyond the scale of 5-A.
"The titan was able to rend the black hole because it is a magical construct who exists partially beyond our reality, creates and obliterates planes of existence with ease, and whose magical power, speed, and durability is defined, drawn from, and limited only by its overactive imagination and incredibly small IQ," is a lot more interesting than, "The titan rended the black hole because he's really strong and I don't care about physics and you can't argue with me about it because I'm the author and you're not. Nah nah na boo boo."

Ha ha ha! What was that? That was funny. That last quote was so hiliarious.

 

[The_Living_Tribunal1]

I seem to be sensing conflicting ideologies. Can higher dimensional beings do it? If so how high?
From what I gathered so far:

1. No it is unquantifiable though it can be done by hax.

2. Yes, due to the ability of higher dimensional beings to alter reality, though it can also be done by hax Which is it? Both?

higher dimensionals cud do it if they avoid certain things

but overall, it is unquantifyable and black holes are poorly know, for all we know they might affect all dimensional beings equally at the point of the singularity and one wud need a special property in fiction to avoid that


its all speculation at this point

 

[TheMightyRegulator]

Ah, I see. Thank you TLT1

 

[Angry_Dummy]

*sigh* you cannot use a black hole destruction to justify the powers beyond 5-A when it is unquantifiable

No, I'm not that ignorant. I've been paying attention.

What I said was, "I'm glad that there are people who can explain how things bigger than I can fathom work."

Specifically, I was talking about all interactions that are between 5-A and 0, because those are the points where I struggle.

I've figured out by now that black hole destruction as a feat does not bring anything new to the table and is chalked up to author research failure on this site. Unless the character has some sort of stated power that can specifically deal with it, like control over gravity and mass or existing in a way that allows it to ignore 3rd dimensional forces, it does not work, and in those instances there is nothing gained by the feat because they already established these powers beforehand.

I can also explain it like this: A character tightening a nut by looking at it, on its own, is considered nonsense by the site.

A character tightening a nut by looking at it using their psychic powers does not add anything to the character because the psychic powers have already been established as able to do things of this nature and this feat is already considered a given.

I'm uneducated, not oblivious.

 

[The_Living_Tribunal1]

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